Why Would You Plant Theobroma cacao When You Can Plant Theobroma bicolor?

[agroventuresperu]

Sorry Cacao fans this one isn't for you. Cacao seeds are horrible. That's why most people ferment them and add sugar. The labor requirement is immense to actually properly process the seeds. The pulp is very minimal and, I will admit, has a decent flavor, a little sour but OK. However, the amount of pulp is too minimal to be worthwhile. Plus Cacao has next to no tolerance of aluminum saturation, so it's just not a good choice for many tropical soils. Pure cacao doesn't even have a nice stimulating effect. I much prefer coffee or coca leaf if I want something that's a stimulant. Also Cacao is high in oxalates.

We planted Theobroma bicolor. One of them fruited at two years, most fruited at three years. They seem pretty forgiving of poor soil. The pulp is delicious (a creamier flavor vs. the tart flavor of the cacao) and there is a decent amount unlike Cacao. The best part: the seeds. They are like gigantic, fat pumpkin seeds that taste exquisite when toasted.

[brian]

The name, most likely. People want to grow chocolate and thats the one with the name.  If the genus was cacao and it was 'cacao cacao' and 'cacao mocambo (bicolor)' I bet the others would be more popular.

I have a cacao for exactly this reason, I didn't even know about the other types until long after I got it.  I have tried a raw cacao pod and its seeds and pulp and I agree neither are very palatable.  I got for the novelty of "Can I grow a chocolate tree?"

Does bicolor require hand pollination?  That is a huge negative I found out about cacao after I got one

[Finca La Isla]

I have a chocolate business so I grow cacao. But I also grow pataxte, cupuasu, and other theobromas and herranias. I like them all. But chocolate is a good business and I eat some chocolate as well. The rest of them are nice to have but it’s not a business. If you have plenty of money and don’t need to make a profit with your farm. …
Peter

[Bush2Beach]

Macombo is a good business as well. I have been paying $35 for less than a pound of roasted seeds for years. Imlakesh organics sells them everywhere. You haven't tried the seeds Peter? they are amazing "brain beans" , incredible nutritional profile.

My question for agventurePeru: How is the labor requirement less intense for processing Macombo seeds? How do you deal with the thick mucilagenous pulp around the seed so it can be roasted?

[Finca La Isla]

We grow pataxte, as it’s called in Mesoamérica. We eat the roasted seeds as well as the creamy pulp. Traditionally people use sand to scrub the pulp off and make a drink with the ground seeds. While the roasted seeds are very good the pataxte drink is not nearly as good as chocolate. So that’s a reason to grow cacao, some people like a rustic hot chocolate!
The maintenance might be easier with pataxte since the trees don’t really need pruning and the fruit falls when ready instead of having to manually pick every cacao fruit.
Peter

[Bush2Beach]

So you have found the traditional method of cleaning Pataxte seeds with sand works best?
Thanks for the feedback.
 

[Finca La Isla]

I have an indigenous woman who helps me with product processing. She says that the Bribri would take the pataxte to a beach by the river and use the sand to rub the pulp off.
We’re not processing to scale and mostly suck the pulp off and then roast or plant the seeds.
Peter

[0hip]

I just got some theobroma gileri which im pretty excited about. seeds are already poked their heads above the soil

[ben mango]

Chocolate is awesome. bicolor kinda tastes like bland yogurt to me. I would eat it if I was starving but it’s not something I would ever get excited about

[Bush2Beach]

Its all about the roasted seeds with Bicolor. That's where the excellent flavor and nutrition is.

Chocolate is awesome. bicolor kinda tastes like bland yogurt to me. I would eat it if I was starving but it’s not something I would ever get excited about

[agroventuresperu]

So you have found the traditional method of cleaning Pataxte seeds with sand works best?
Thanks for the feedback.

I find peeling it with my fingers and teeth works best while I'm already working on eating the pulp.

[agroventuresperu]

I have a chocolate business so I grow cacao. But I also grow pataxte, cupuasu, and other theobromas and herranias. I like them all. But chocolate is a good business and I eat some chocolate as well. The rest of them are nice to have but it’s not a business. If you have plenty of money and don’t need to make a profit with your farm. …
Peter

No. There is no money to be made here from Cacao. The climate is slightly wrong, but more importantly, the economics involved with trying to amend the soil for commercially grown cacao where there are already significant levels of subsoil aluminum saturation on very steep slopes where machinery or vehicles cannot access does not make sense economically. People grow coffee here, which is a little more forgiving of that, but eventually their management causes too high levels of Al saturation for that as well, and so they burn all the shrubs and plant Brachiaria, or just let it grow fallow and go grab another patch of forest to destroy.

I would argue it's not so important species selection for profitability. Site selection is more important. But if it's all about the economics, then the environment typically gets thrown under the bus. Most people in this world don't have the money to be amending soils or buying agricultural land with fertile soil. It's a lot easier and more profitable to go make fertile soil by turning rainforest into ash.

From my experience in this area of the country, I'm not sure what I would recommend other than coffee in terms of profitable export crops. For a national crop, I might tentatively recommend Caimito as it seems to be a fruit that a lot of Peruvians in this region really like, and there are a lot of trees that fruit successfully around here without any help.

[Mike T]

Besides chocolate and colourful new growth?

[Finca La Isla]

I’m wondering what altitude you’re at. I must have missed that. In CR you wouldn’t usually plant cacao and coffee in the same area. Cacao is planted up to about 600m. What people are mostly planting are trinitario hybrids. Above that people start to plant coffee, Arabica coffee.
I don’t know all that much about coffee but we grow cacao on the same land where it was planted 100 years ago. Chocolate is a business.
Peter

[Daintree]

I grow cacao instead of bicolor because I can find the seeds and fruit!!! 
I'd love to grow others but can't get my hands on them. Seedlings from EBay are risky at best.

Carolyn

[happyhana]

I grow cacao instead of bicolor because I can find the seeds and fruit!!! 
I'd love to grow others but can't get my hands on them. Seedlings from EBay are risky at best.

Carolyn

You might try Montoso Gardens in PR, they are a great source for Theobroma seeds

[Daintree]

They do not have bicolor on their website. I love them and I do buy from them. Two of my three current adult plants are from there, as seeds.

Carolyn

[brian]

I grow cacao instead of bicolor because I can find the seeds and fruit!!! 
I'd love to grow others but can't get my hands on them. Seedlings from EBay are risky at best.

Carolyn

Seller 9waters on etsy is very reliable and currently carries seedlings:  https://www.etsy.com/listing/652257995/

[Satya]

Sorry Cacao fans this one isn't for you. Cacao seeds are horrible. That's why most people ferment them and add sugar. The labor requirement is immense to actually properly process the seeds. The pulp is very minimal and, I will admit, has a decent flavor, a little sour but OK. However, the amount of pulp is too minimal to be worthwhile. Plus Cacao has next to no tolerance of aluminum saturation, so it's just not a good choice for many tropical soils. Pure cacao doesn't even have a nice stimulating effect. I much prefer coffee or coca leaf if I want something that's a stimulant. Also Cacao is high in oxalates.

We planted Theobroma bicolor. One of them fruited at two years, most fruited at three years. They seem pretty forgiving of poor soil. The pulp is delicious (a creamier flavor vs. the tart flavor of the cacao) and there is a decent amount unlike Cacao. The best part: the seeds. They are like gigantic, fat pumpkin seeds that taste exquisite when toasted.

someone commented on my bicolor video that the pulp tastes like a rotten melon 😹

[booeyschewy]

Cacao pulp is in my top five of fruit probably. I find t. Bicolor a bit nauseating actually. The seeds are also hard to work with and there’s little market. People mess around with it in Brazil but there’s been little interest so far. Cupuaçu however is well established and seems easier going than cacao. That said prices are low and we often don’t even harvest it for that reason. In our region cacao grows incredibly easy, it has to be pruned for disease but that’s true of all wild cacao species too. Personally I’m excited about many of the other wild cacao species. They’re all lowland Amazonian types though

[Satya]

Cacao pulp is in my top five of fruit probably. I find t. Bicolor a bit nauseating actually. The seeds are also hard to work with and there’s little market. People mess around with it in Brazil but there’s been little interest so far. Cupuaçu however is well established and seems easier going than cacao. That said prices are low and we often don’t even harvest it for that reason. In our region cacao grows incredibly easy, it has to be pruned for disease but that’s true of all wild cacao species too. Personally I’m excited about many of the other wild cacao species. They’re all lowland Amazonian types though

could you please describe the exact growing conditions for cacao in your area? amount of water, soil type, shade type that you use? If possible a photo of your soil. I also want to grow cacao very easily    here in Costa Rica ingas are used for shade, but cacao plants don't look incredibly vigorous. Probably not liking our dry season.

[endemic2earth]

Our agroforestry farm is located in Hawai'i, and I only have experience with these crops in our locality. We've planted T. cacao, T. bicolor, and T. grandiflorum. All are fruiting, but cacao bears heavily whereas the other 2 species much less so (though it's still early days as they are all under 12 years of age). Current focus specific to cacao is fermenting, drying and roasting for consumption as whole beans in "shell". People here really appreciate the whole food aspect of this product.

 Everyone knows cacao around the world, but their relatives are largely unknown & it's difficult to get the majority of humans to try new things, so that's an obstacle. All three grow well as multistory companions, so rather than pondering which to plant and which to not, I recommend planting all of the above + more diversity & see what succeeds in your location.

[Finca La Isla]

With the theobromas you’re talking about I think that 12 years is plenty of time to establish serious production. We think of 5-6 years for cacao to really become productive. Ours begins to produce within 2 years.
I am aware that consuming the cacao membrane is getting more common and I am cautious about that. The fermentation is not really controlled the way most people do it, including us. Lots of different fungi and bacteria can start in there. Who knows what, really. So sure, the roasting kills microorganisms but their leftovers could remain as toxins. Botulism and aflatoxin are not living microorganisms as an example. We feel we are removing that potential in the winnow.
We think it’s worthwhile to grow those 3 as well as other theobromas and herranias. Unfortunately the same diseases that attack cacao also are a problem for pataxte and cupuasu.
Peter

[booeyschewy]

could you please describe the exact growing conditions for cacao in your area? amount of water, soil type, shade type that you use? If possible a photo of your soil. I also want to grow cacao very easily    here in Costa Rica ingas are used for shade, but cacao plants don't look incredibly vigorous. Probably not liking our dry season.

We’re a few miles from coastline 150m above sea level. Soil is acidic, varying levels of clay, nutrient poor. People grow it in full sun to heavy shade and it does well in all though full sun leads to disease, full shade other diseases. Optimal is shade trees every 15x15m with shade managed through pruning. We get 1500-2000mm rain annually without any dry season. We have native ingá here too but people use rubber trees or other natives for shade things like laurel, guanandi, biriba (tropical hardwood, not the anonna), and others. Every Theobroma thrives here though and it’s why Bahia was the worlds top producer before witches broom fungus destroyed the industry (though it’s recovering and thriving now with resistant varieties).

[Satya]

could you please describe the exact growing conditions for cacao in your area? amount of water, soil type, shade type that you use? If possible a photo of your soil. I also want to grow cacao very easily    here in Costa Rica ingas are used for shade, but cacao plants don't look incredibly vigorous. Probably not liking our dry season.

We’re a few miles from coastline 150m above sea level. Soil is acidic, varying levels of clay, nutrient poor. People grow it in full sun to heavy shade and it does well in all though full sun leads to disease, full shade other diseases. Optimal is shade trees every 15x15m with shade managed through pruning. We get 1500-2000mm rain annually without any dry season. We have native ingá here too but people use rubber trees or other natives for shade things like laurel, guanandi, biriba (tropical hardwood, not the anonna), and others. Every Theobroma thrives here though and it’s why Bahia was the worlds top producer before witches broom fungus destroyed the industry (though it’s recovering and thriving now with resistant varieties).

Thank you. The "no dry season" makes me sad, our dry season is extreme (elevation 1000m and strong winds).