Author Topic: Year of the Durian  (Read 10779 times)

FloridaGreenMan

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Year of the Durian
« on: January 26, 2013, 06:35:16 PM »
Hey everyone
Check out the video presentation from Lindsay & Rob who traveled for a year in the SE Asia on a Durian eating expedition. Here is their presentation...these folks are true fruit lovers !   

http://www.yearofthedurian.com/2013/01/fruitluck-durian-presentation.html#more
FloridaGreenMan

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2013, 04:11:52 AM »
It's the same event from this other thread http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3782

Pretty nice of them to allow recording.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 05:56:24 AM »
Nice video. Some very minor corrections. Monthongs are not all clones from just one tree, they are a group of types, so there will be some genetic variation among them. Most people will find a monthong that has cracked open, or fallen from the tree to be already way over ripe. Monthongs have actually been bred to ripen without cracking. After hand picking up in the trees the monthongs that are shipped are treated with a ripening retardant chemical, so that they can stand long shipping times without becoming over ripe. Monthong is not the only type exported from 'Thailand. There are 4 main exported types: Monthong, Chanee, Kan Yao, and Kradum. Kradum is an early type that fetches a higher price. Sometimes a small but very good quality durian called Pong Manee is also exported. Smelling is not the only way to judge ripeness or even the most important way. Another more important technique is to tap the fruit with a thin bamboo stick that has a super ball at the end. So the method is similar to tapping watermelons. Malaysian durians while more complex flavored also tend to be a whole lot smaller than Thai durians. Malaysian farmers string extensive systems of fish netting under their durian trees. They are caught in the netting before hitting the ground, so there is no damage to the fruit. Personally i enjoy both Thai and Malay durians. There is a big rivalry between these 2 countries about who produces the better quality durian, but i think they both really do. Thai farmers are more geared to export quality. Amount of durians exported from Malaysia is tiny by comparison. But Thais keep more than 1/2 of the durians they produce for domestic comsumption. So there are plenty of good ones around.
Oscar

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2013, 11:41:40 AM »
Hi Oscar,

Thanks for your input. I was not aware that Monthong was a group classification, I believed it to be a brand clone similar to "Granny Smith"  or "Golden Delicious" apples. I am aware that there are relatives of Monthong, such as Kradumthong, but these have different names. I will have to look into this more.

No other varieties are currently exported to the United States. We should have clarified.

I've had Monthong fallen off the tree and found them to be very good, while I have never had a cut durian that I thought was extremely good, of any variety. I can actually taste a different flavor in cut durians which detracts from the otherwise good flavor.  So I do not believe that Monthong ripens fully on the tree. Many people told us this as well, but I don't believe it.
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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2013, 06:31:10 PM »
Hi Oscar,

Thanks for your input. I was not aware that Monthong was a group classification, I believed it to be a brand clone similar to "Granny Smith"  or "Golden Delicious" apples. I am aware that there are relatives of Monthong, such as Kradumthong, but these have different names. I will have to look into this more.

No other varieties are currently exported to the United States. We should have clarified.

I've had Monthong fallen off the tree and found them to be very good, while I have never had a cut durian that I thought was extremely good, of any variety. I can actually taste a different flavor in cut durians which detracts from the otherwise good flavor.  So I do not believe that Monthong ripens fully on the tree. Many people told us this as well, but I don't believe it.

I think years back Chanee was also exported to USA, but don't know it it still is? Most of the durian fruits sent to USA are in frozen form, but to other countries, especially Asian countries, Thailand sends lots of fresh fruits.
Maybe a long time ago what you're saying about Monthongs all being genetically identical was true. But the Monthong has been grown for so long and so many selections made that it's not the case any longer.
Oscar

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2013, 07:03:54 PM »
My wife and I watched the video last night, but our guest had already seen it.  The narrative for Thai vrs Malaysian durians was identical to my experience:  starchy or half-starchy durians being opened all over the place in Thailand and all tasting the same and then smaller, tree-ripened delicious widely varying durians in Peninsular Malaysia.  In Sabah and Sumatra I have come across some pretty watery tasteless tree ripened kampong durians.  I also agree about the flesh colour, yellow looks better, but white or grey can sometimes taste better.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2013, 04:15:05 AM »
That is a very good overview by Oscar and all 4 main commercial durians in thailand are not a single type.Kradum (button) especially comes in many types with kradum thong the main one.It can be grown further north that the others.
Types are grouped into 3 divisions based on number of days from pollination until picking and there is an assumed relatedness.The ones I really like are montong,gaan yeow,luang and gumpun.They are not simple or alike in flavor.
Many thai durian are grown in Malaysia and have been crossed with Malay types.In MARDI's D nomenclature many are thai types brought to Malaysia decades ago.
Western palates usually find thai varieties more tasty and acceptable.The argument over which are the better quality will never be resolved as it is a question of taste.Oh yeah many tree ripened thai durian are delicious just as many tree ripened Malaysian durian types are.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2013, 12:47:52 PM »
That is a very good overview by Oscar and all 4 main commercial durians in thailand are not a single type.Kradum (button) especially comes in many types with kradum thong the main one.It can be grown further north that the others.
Types are grouped into 3 divisions based on number of days from pollination until picking and there is an assumed relatedness.The ones I really like are montong,gaan yeow,luang and gumpun.They are not simple or alike in flavor.
Many thai durian are grown in Malaysia and have been crossed with Malay types.In MARDI's D nomenclature many are thai types brought to Malaysia decades ago.
Western palates usually find thai varieties more tasty and acceptable.The argument over which are the better quality will never be resolved as it is a question of taste.Oh yeah many tree ripened thai durian are delicious just as many tree ripened Malaysian durian types are.

Okay, here's how I understand the durian situation in Thailand. This info comes straight from an interview I did at the Department of Agriculture in Chanthaburi. They translated a pamphlet for me.

There are five main families of durian. These are:
1. Kop: 47 varieties
2. Luang: 11 varieties, including 4 chanees
3. Ganyao
4. Kampan - 13 varieties
5. Thongyoi -  14 varieties, including Nockyib

Monthong does not belong to any families, and there is no Monthong family. Like puangmanee, monthong is a branded variety/cultivar. It may differ slightly based on soil type, elevation, tree health and pesticide use, but there you have it. Like I said, Monthong is a clone of a single tree.

If someone has information and can prove me wrong, I would appreciate the tip.

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Mike T

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2013, 02:04:39 PM »
http://www.dit.go.th/agriculture/durian/varietie.htm

In the above link look at types of durian.Most thai enthusiasts classify them according to these 3 lineages.I just can't find the 3D, 3 axis models that verify this.I posted an australian evaluation of clones in a large report that contained genetic groupings in one section where the 3D clusters support this. 

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2013, 02:38:55 PM »
I as told by thai farmers that montong varies beyond just environment and maybe due to seedlings being called montong.Some of the apparent diversity within the type could also be from past mis-identification of the variety. Locally I can get pomoho montong or common montong and these are different from Malaysian D159.I would not be surprized if origins could be traced to a single tree.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2013, 04:51:32 PM »
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/items/02-091

Refer to page 80 for genetic relatedness in 3 montong durian 'types'.While Kostermann may be the durian king in science,Lim who assisted in this research is probably the current world authority on many aspects of durians.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2013, 04:58:18 PM »
Those with an interest in dwarfing and cold tolerance in durians evaluated may wish to look at pages 81,82 and look for Red Prawn (D175) and D.macrantha as starting points in the document from the link below.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2013, 05:46:53 PM »
http://www.dit.go.th/agriculture/durian/varietie.htm

In the above link look at types of durian.Most thai enthusiasts classify them according to these 3 lineages.I just can't find the 3D, 3 axis models that verify this.I posted an australian evaluation of clones in a large report that contained genetic groupings in one section where the 3D clusters support this.

This link won't open.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2013, 07:03:08 PM »

DL,
I'll paste a bit to show what the Thai take on it is and that varieties are continually improved and changed not static.

Go to page 79 and 80 of the following report in the next link look at how the 3 montong types are diverging as you would expect with continual improvement.


Spread of the good varieties to neighboring countries.

The two varieties that are favorite among the consumers are Chanee and Monthong. Both have been continuously developed as the best quality in Thailand. They have been introduced to nearby countries. In Indonesia, the Kani variety is originated from Chanee and Otong a direct scion of Monthong of Thailand. In Malaysia, the D99 has its origin from Thai durian. In the Philippines, Chanee and Monthong are grown widely.

Naming of durian variety

In the past, the grower grew durian by seed in which the new plants are usually not true to type. In this way new varieties were created, and good ones were named usually according to their appearance, shape, pulp color or locality. There are some stories about the origin of different names that can be traced in some major varieties as follows:
1. It is believed the "Chanee" or Gibbon took its name because the fruit tends to stick at the end of branches looking like a gibbon hanging on a tree.
2. "Monthong" or Golden Pillow. In Thai, Mon means "pillow" and Thong means "Gold" . The Monthong is named for its fruit appearance. It is said to be shaped like a pillow while the delicious pulp is a golden yellow.
3. "Kanyao" (Long Peduncle). In Thai, Kan means "Peduncle" while Yao means "Long". So its name derivation is consistent with the outside appearance, which the peduncle is rather longer than other varieties.
4. "Kradumthong" or Golden Button. In Thai, Kradum means "button" while Thong means "Gold" as its bud is small and round looking like a button of an old style Chinese shirt with good taste. So they named it for the shape and taste as Kradumthong.

Types of durian

All durian varieties can be classified according to time from the bloom of their flowers to harvest. There are 3 types, the early types that mature in about 95-105 days are Luang and Kradumthong. They are harvested early in the season so they generally fetch a higher price. The medium types with a maturation period between 105-120 days are Kanyao, Monthong and Chanee. These medium varieties are mass produced and marketed in the peak when the price is rather low. The late types which reach maturity in more than 120 days are Enak and Kampan that are nominally grown.


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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2013, 07:25:34 PM »
Mike T,
You're correct in noting that durians are often categorized by their maturation rate, with early (80-95 days), middle (100-120 days) and late ( up to 140ish days), but this doesn't change what I said about the five related families of durian, of which Monthong is a singular outlier breed.

I have also come across "false" Monthongs, like the Dona durian in Vietnam or the red-fleshed monthong in Java. These are not true Monthongs. Some are seedlings of a Monthong, such as the Filipino Soriano/Obusa, but since we know that durian seedlings do not grow true to the parent these varieties are not true Monthong.
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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2013, 07:45:47 PM »
If the question is where does montong fit in genetically the accepted Thai genetic classification helps and that is what you put up basicall durianwriter.

Researchers in Thailand have developed a classification system for clones based on leaf, flower, and
fruit characteristics (Hiranpradit et al., 1992). Six groups of Thai durian clones were identified:
Group 1 called Kob (Kop, Gob) included 38 clones based around the Kop type,
Group 2 called Lueng (Luang) included 7 clones mainly of the Chanee type,
Group 3 called Kan Yao (Karn-Yao, Gaan Yao) included 7 clones based around Kan Yao,
Group 4 called Kampun (Kam-Pan, Kumpun, Gumpun) included 11 clones based on the Gumpun and
Monthong (Mon Thong) type,
Group 5 called Tong-yoi included 12 clones one of which was Nok Yip, a very strong-flavoured Thai
clone tasted by the researchers in Chantaburi in 1996,
Group 6 was called Miscellaneous and contained 47 clones such as Kradoom Thong (Kra-dum-tong)
not matched to the other groups.

Look at pages 79 and 80 of that other report for actual genetic relatedness of montong to several others.Montongs are not that aberrant.Hawaiin montong is probably just a mis-ID.References to improved montong,early montong and old montong around thailand add to the confusion.


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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2013, 09:31:53 PM »
So what I'm getting from the above is monthong(golden pillow) may be a changing classification sort of like how the "foot" was depending on who was king at the time. Who actually decides what is or isn't it? I get the feeling it's whoever's selling the fruit.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2013, 11:29:45 PM »
Wow Sweet find Mike T! Thanks, I'm going to have to look more into this Monthong conundrum so I don't get it wrong when I write my book.
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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2013, 03:35:42 AM »
Wow Sweet find Mike T! Thanks, I'm going to have to look more into this Monthong conundrum so I don't get it wrong when I write my book.

It's great you took notes of your interviews, but i wouldn't use any of that to quote in your book. As you can already see that is quite liable to error, as in the statement that Monthong is not in any family group of durians. As far as Monthong being a genetically distinct clone, the Australian paper  on durian germplasm evaluation mentions two others with name Monthong that are distinct: Ng Monthong ( a Malaysian type) and Hawaiian Monthong, probably a type of Chanee. (We also have regular Monthong in Hawaii.) Please note that the Australian durian germplasm evaluation Mike refers to is almost a dozen years old, and they only surveyed the very few types they had access to in Australia. It is not comprehensive, nor does it attempt to be. If all the types getting called Monthong in Thailand were DNA sequenced you would see that nowadays you are not dealing with just one clone.
Oscar

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2013, 03:47:44 AM »
Oscar that was basically what I was tring to say but I am not a silver tongued devil like you.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2013, 04:08:53 AM »
Oscar that was basically what I was tring to say but I am not a silver tongued devil like you.

 :P :P :P
Oscar

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2013, 09:42:11 AM »
Hi durianwriter, can you please help me to indentify this cultivar?




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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2013, 02:03:28 AM »
Wow Sweet find Mike T! Thanks, I'm going to have to look more into this Monthong conundrum so I don't get it wrong when I write my book.

It's great you took notes of your interviews, but i wouldn't use any of that to quote in your book. As you can already see that is quite liable to error, as in the statement that Monthong is not in any family group of durians. As far as Monthong being a genetically distinct clone, the Australian paper  on durian germplasm evaluation mentions two others with name Monthong that are distinct: Ng Monthong ( a Malaysian type) and Hawaiian Monthong, probably a type of Chanee. (We also have regular Monthong in Hawaii.) Please note that the Australian durian germplasm evaluation Mike refers to is almost a dozen years old, and they only surveyed the very few types they had access to in Australia. It is not comprehensive, nor does it attempt to be. If all the types getting called Monthong in Thailand were DNA sequenced you would see that nowadays you are not dealing with just one clone.

Intelligent response. I actually got this information from the Agricultural Department's stall at the Chanthaburi World Durian Festival. There was a poster board explaining all the types of durians. Monthong was listed among the miscellaneous varieties, and not under any of the main families as Mike suggests.

I do realize that there are many durians around the world that are called Monthongs, but are actually the seedling of a Monthong durian. In Vietnam it is called Dona, in Philippines Obusa. They are typically similar to Monthong but genetically distinct, with something slightly different that I can't quite put my finger on :)

I'm currently researching the history of the Monthong and will let you know what I find out. Thanks for all the great info!
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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2013, 04:52:29 AM »
durianwriter, Luang is an excellent old variety and is very similar to Montong.They are one of the favored varieties around here and even seasoned thai durian enthusiasts have strife distinguishing them.The more you dig the more conflicting classifications you are likely to find.The limited genetic work done on zibethinus shows it is really a composite species.

I would not be surprised if D.macrantha is a paleo zibethinus or at least contributed a few genes.Hopefully I will soon lay my paws on genuine macrantha and I can post pix so the peddlers of fakes will have a harder time.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2013, 06:40:19 AM »
Some days ago i read that the fruit export of Thailand will be boycotted because the Thai like to trade in ivory. Some animal protection club found out that African ivory is traded in Thailand and now  the plan is to boycot Thai fruits.

So you better enjoy the fruit as long as you can before the boycot starts ( i thought they start next month after some big meeting).


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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2013, 10:23:11 AM »
Noel, great video, thanks for sharing.
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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2013, 11:52:26 AM »
Mike, it is clear that I don't have enough research on Thai durians. I am going back for the season in May.

Do you think that Macrantha is genuinely a separate species? I have heard it referred to as Kosterman's White Whale, and at least two experts (who have never seen it) doubt that it is a separate species simply because no one has ever found another tree and it is so similar to zibethinus.

Some days ago i read that the fruit export of Thailand will be boycotted because the Thai like to trade in ivory. Some animal protection club found out that African ivory is traded in Thailand and now  the plan is to boycot Thai fruits.

So you better enjoy the fruit as long as you can before the boycot starts ( i thought they start next month after some big meeting).

Bangkok: It may sadden you to know that Indonesia has just banned the import of Thai durians. You can read more about it here:http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013/02/14/commnets-durian-import-moratorium.html
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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2013, 02:48:57 AM »
Mike, it is clear that I don't have enough research on Thai durians. I am going back for the season in May.

Do you think that Macrantha is genuinely a separate species? I have heard it referred to as Kosterman's White Whale, and at least two experts (who have never seen it) doubt that it is a separate species simply because no one has ever found another tree and it is so similar to zibethinus.

Some days ago i read that the fruit export of Thailand will be boycotted because the Thai like to trade in ivory. Some animal protection club found out that African ivory is traded in Thailand and now  the plan is to boycot Thai fruits.

So you better enjoy the fruit as long as you can before the boycot starts ( i thought they start next month after some big meeting).

Bangkok: It may sadden you to know that Indonesia has just banned the import of Thai durians. You can read more about it here:http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013/02/14/commnets-durian-import-moratorium.html

Well this does not sadden me because now they might get cheaper here in Thailand. I don;t eat durians so often but i love the deepfried durianchips who are pretty expensive. Durians also might get more expensive here now because the farmers want to have their profit anyway and then just raise the price for the domestic clients, this is Thailand.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2013, 03:00:57 AM »
durianwriter I think the answer to whether macrantha is a separate species from zibethinus is dependant on the definition of species you draw on.Graveolans can cross with zibethinus and produce fertile offspring.In the genetic model in the report I posted you can see zibethinus has genetic outlyers and like Lansium domesticum is a super or composite species.There is certainly a broad diversity of plants under the one umbrella.
Kostermans said it was different enough and until proven otherwise I guess it has to be accepted.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2013, 03:01:35 AM »
[quote author=Mike T link=topic=4091.msg60733#msg60733 date=1361526749

I would not be surprised if D.macrantha is a paleo zibethinus or at least contributed a few genes.Hopefully I will soon lay my paws on genuine macrantha and I can post pix so the peddlers of fakes will have a harder time.
[/quote]

What do you mean by the "peddlers of fakes"? Is Macrantha well known somewhere?
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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2013, 03:49:51 AM »
durianwriter,macrantha seeds are popping for sale and on one thread here were accompanied by pix of a standard looking zibethinus.A noted seed scammer was responsible in that case.It appears some seed sellers are using the name macrantha and there is a snowflakes chance in hell that they really have it.

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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2013, 03:53:50 AM »
durianwriter,macrantha seeds are popping for sale and on one thread here were accompanied by pix of a standard looking zibethinus.A noted seed scammer was responsible in that case.It appears some seed sellers are using the name macrantha and there is a snowflakes chance in hell that they really have it.

Wow, that's really interesting. Macrantha seems to be fairly unknown in Asia and even a few of the so-called durian experts were unfamiliar with it. It is quite rare - I only know of one tree in Bogor and the few you've mentioned in Australia.
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Re: Year of the Durian
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2013, 03:58:44 AM »
Durianwriter I think you just described the worldwide population.Did you actually have confirmation that the bogor tree is still alive and producing? It is the macrantha 'Eve'.Speaking of Eve did you know she offerred Adam an apricot and not an apple?

 

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