Longkong or Duku or Duku-Langsat or Langsat

[RICBITAR]

Hello,

Some years ago, I bought seeds from Longkong from Thailand,
Can someone confirm if are really Longkong by the pictures ?
At the time I received this email the seller :
Dear Ricardo,
We can provide the seed to you but I have to consider the risk to reward ratio. Their are 0-5 seeds/kg. of fruit and they are difficult to clean.
He said, maybe no have one only seed in a fruit kilo








Thanks

Ricardo

[Tropicaliste]

This may be confusing, I'll try to articulate my thoughts in a concise way. I apologize in advance if I'm giving you bad information, but this is accurate, to the best of my knowledge.
In Thailand, the people refer to all of the fruits of Lansium Domesticum, as "Longkong". A variety that was selected from the south of the country has been exported to other countries as the cultivar "Longkong". Because of this name, there has been a bit of confusion in the west, when someone from Thailand says Longkong, and someone from the West says Longkong. This sought after cultivar has a thick peel, no latex, and virtually seedless. Because the seller made a point of saying that there were 0-5 seeds per kg, it may be that you bought the seeds of this famous cultivar. Consider that you may have growing a specimen of duku or duku langsat. Which is still very nice.  It's looking good.

One can buy grafted "Longkong" trees in the Philippines(can't speak for other countries), that are the longkong cultivar, seedless and latexfree. They are grafted onto Jolo rootstock to provide for hardy growth. The thick peel makes it very desirable for export because it can last the journey and not look too bruised, whether it's going to the U.S. or wherever. I'm still learning myself and welcome more information.

May I ask what the leaves are like? Expert growers know the difference by feeling the leaves ... are they hairy? Would you tell us about the underside? If the seller says the fruit produces 0-5 seeds per kg, then that's a good sign.

[bangkok]

I don't know what a longkong tree looks like. I only know that i see huge piles of longkongs for sale right now and the fruits look bigger every day i see them. Maybe they are langsats or duku or whatever, i have no idea. I don't like them but the Thai sure eat them.

Also the longans are getting bigger every day, now they are pingpong ball size but the longkongs are more like small chicken-egg size (the big ones)

[Tropicaliste]

I love them. It's a family tradition. I could eat kilos. I enjoy good longans and lychees, but not as much.

[ben mango]

ya looks like langsat , duku-langsat, longkong or lanzones...in the philippines the lanzones are the most common i had longkong and duku  and i enjoyed the native lanzones the most...longkongs in hawaii are good too but i never had ones that are mostly seedless,, like the ones at frankies...
 
pictures of langsat plant - http://www.fruitipedia.com/langsat%20Lansium%20domesticum.htm

[ben mango]

its a great fruit that goes well after durian. i find mangosteen are sometimes too sweet and tart for my liking. lanzones are sweet and juicy without much tart. lychees and pulasan are two others that i can eat after a durian session and I find it compliments it well.

[Mike T]

This issue is up my alley and there is so much bad information around to confuse people.We talked about this in past threads.The 2 formally described subspecies are fake and don't stand up to any scrutiny or genetic classification.
What we do know about Lansium domesticum is that it probably comprised originally of 3 or 4 closely related species or different subspecies that were domesticated and mixed a long time ago.They are now embedded.
Today there are 5 broad classifications of this species with different growth forms,climate requirements and fruit.They are
kokosan
langsat or lansone
duku
duku-langsat
longkong
and each has nuerous forms and varieties.Gotta run I will talk more about how they are distinctive soon.The small tree could be any of the 5.

[Mike T]

Ok I'm back.
There are 100's of accessions falling basically into the 5 categories but some are unclear.Some references advise no sexual reproduction takes place any more in cultivated types and they have become like mangosteen.
Longkong are thai,duku and duku-langsat are Malaysian,langsat is from all over and kokosan is Indonesian  but  now it is getting mixed up.Longkong is replacing the more shy bearing,more sour langsat (lansone) varieties like paete in the philipines.Longkong is the best being sweetest with fewer seeds (5 per maybe dozen fruit in most bunches) although duku-langsat is good also.It also is second most cold hardy after langsat in the group with duku and kokosan being quite equatorial.
If the original fruit had few seeds and came from Thailand they will almost certainly be longkong.No one can look and be sure which a young tree is,not even experts.The only other thai variety really is langsat most  of the variety Utteraditt and these are much less common.
That tree will take maybe 12 more years to fruit and then go crazy with high volume.

[RICBITAR]

This may be confusing, I'll try to articulate my thoughts in a concise way. I apologize in advance if I'm giving you bad information, but this is accurate, to the best of my knowledge.
In Thailand, the people refer to all of the fruits of Lansium Domesticum, as "Longkong". A variety that was selected from the south of the country has been exported to other countries as the cultivar "Longkong". Because of this name, there has been a bit of confusion in the west, when someone from Thailand says Longkong, and someone from the West says Longkong. This sought after cultivar has a thick peel, no latex, and virtually seedless. Because the seller made a point of saying that there were 0-5 seeds per kg, it may be that you bought the seeds of this famous cultivar. Consider that you may have growing a specimen of duku or duku langsat. Which is still very nice.  It's looking good.

One can buy grafted "Longkong" trees in the Philippines(can't speak for other countries), that are the longkong cultivar, seedless and latexfree. They are grafted onto Jolo rootstock to provide for hardy growth. The thick peel makes it very desirable for export because it can last the journey and not look too bruised, whether it's going to the U.S. or wherever. I'm still learning myself and welcome more information.

May I ask what the leaves are like? Expert growers know the difference by feeling the leaves ... are they hairy? Would you tell us about the underside? If the seller says the fruit produces 0-5 seeds per kg, then that's a good sign.

Thanks, I will check the leaves today, and return

[RICBITAR]

I don't know what a longkong tree looks like. I only know that i see huge piles of longkongs for sale right now and the fruits look bigger every day i see them. Maybe they are langsats or duku or whatever, i have no idea. I don't like them but the Thai sure eat them.

Also the longans are getting bigger every day, now they are pingpong ball size but the longkongs are more like small chicken-egg size (the big ones)

Thanks

[RICBITAR]

Ok I'm back.
There are 100's of accessions falling basically into the 5 categories but some are unclear.Some references advise no sexual reproduction takes place any more in cultivated types and they have become like mangosteen.
Longkong are thai,duku and duku-langsat are Malaysian,langsat is from all over and kokosan is Indonesian  but  now it is getting mixed up.Longkong is replacing the more shy bearing,more sour langsat (lansone) varieties like paete in the philipines.Longkong is the best being sweetest with fewer seeds (5 per maybe dozen fruit in most bunches) although duku-langsat is good also.It also is second most cold hardy after langsat in the group with duku and kokosan being quite equatorial.
If the original fruit had few seeds and came from Thailand they will almost certainly be longkong.No one can look and be sure which a young tree is,not even experts.The only other thai variety really is langsat most  of the variety Utteraditt and these are much less common.
That tree will take maybe 12 more years to fruit and then go crazy with high volume.

Mike,

Thank you !!

[TropicalFruitHunters]

In Thailand, the people refer to all of the fruits of Lansium Domesticum, as "Longkong"

This is not true.  It is very difficult to find anything but longkong in the markets these days because the Thai's know that this is the best variety.  If both were offered, most vendors would have a sign with the name above each.  The longkongs will be the first to go.

[Tropicaliste]

Mike: This is good that you brought up the different kinds, because the fruit needs to be reaccessed and reclassified. There's so many different distinctions in the fruits and the trees themselves. They really should be classified by their size, shape, and leaf. Lansium Parasiticum seems to be more represetative of these more native types, because the domesticum name implies these are domesticated, back yard trees. Some exhibit characteristics of commercial and exportable quality, while others are too tart or too seedy.

I disagree that no one can tell the difference in young trees, because for example, the duku variety has hairless leaves while other varieties have hairy leaves. This is information from experts on the bureau of agricultural research at the department of agriculture of the Philippines.
The Paete variety, which is a niche market for Laguna, Camiguin, and Batangas is not sour, it should be sweet and little sour. If it tastes sour, then it's probably not Paete. If it's sour, then it's probably Jolo, a more native type, it shouldn't be "domesticum", because it is not a backyard tree.

Jay: I should clarify that to say, that the thick skinned varieties go by the name Longkong. I believe the thin skinned varieties are called Langsad, but I don't speak the language, and obviously your travels and your wife being from there, is a good source. I know that this thick skinned, latex free, mostly "seedless" variety known to the market as Longkong, originally comes from southern Thailand, and has been by way of scions made it's way to the Philippines. The agricultural folks there have crossed it with the lanzones from Camiguin, calling it CamLong.

[ben mango]

Ya the native langsats are not sour really at all, less tart than a mangosteen..., in fact the larger Duku varieties were more sour and most has big seed in them. I think there is a lot of variation depending on location.

but how long do they take to fruit from seed is the big question? I heard its around the same as durian... 15 years but can be 10

[TropicalFruitHunters]

As for how long to fruit?  There is a saying that you plant these trees for your grandchildren!!  LOL!  Even grafted ones can take over 10 years.  But if you can find grafted ones and plant them...do it.  The only thing you can know for sure is if you don't plant one, you will never get one to fruit!  That wisdom is for free friends!   

[Mike T]

Tropicaliste this is a complicated species because of things like apomixis in seeds.the 1000's of years of domestication,diversity of forms and double talk in the literature.The hairy leafed semi-wild types just add to the confusion and formed the basis of the 'other' subspecies.There are a few good papers like the genetic analysis of 64 Malaysian accessions,philipine trials to try and tell seedling apart by the foliage and many descriptive overviews.
Langsat are thin skinned,have latex in the skin,egg shaped,have tall thin trees and fruit are much more sour even when fully ripe.Paete is a bit sweeter than many langsat varieties but not like duku or longkong.The genetic work shows types that look very different can be closely related and duku-langsat is distinct and far removed from duku or langsat.Generally however forgetting the few halfway types duku,longkong and langsat types are quite different and most sit neatly in these groups.
I recall at the Kamerunga Research Station with 3 types of langsat,3 duku-langsat,2 longkong varieties and maybe 5 dukus all lined up as young plants in the nursery were extemely similar.My own longkongs,duku and duku-langsat could not be distinguished when small and looked the same as my friends langsats when small.When the trees get older you can have an educated guess but not due to leaf size or shape.The nurseries around Ubon Ratchathani have longkong and langsat marcots lined up in big numbers and they are dead ringers.
The problem of passing off langsat as one of the 3 more desirable types is a problem and it takes years to find the error.If a surefire way to tell them apart visually when young is known it would be very handy.

[Cassio]

As for how long to fruit?  There is a saying that you plant these trees for your grandchildren!!  LOL! 

Here in Brazil we say the same in respect to some species of jaboticaba and cambuca, right Ricardo? But don´t worry, you´re still young enough. 

[Mike T]

From seed it could be 20 short years to fruit but maybe only12 to 14 years.To be longkong Ricardo's tree will need to have a medium spread not as wide as duku or skinny as langsat.When it fruits the fruit will be in crowded bunches,have few if any seeds,skin of medium thickness with no latex.Marcotted trees are much faster and grafted ones also can fruit in 5 or 6 years.

[TropicalFruitHunters]

I like Mike's numbers much better!  I need to have my mother-in-law planting one at the house.  I'm always blasted by my wife as to why I need to grow these types of plants once we are in Thailand since I could find them in the market at nearly any time.  She just doesn't get it.

Mike do you see a lot of corky bark disease on them over your way?  Seemed like every tree we encountered had this disease to one degree or another.

[Mike T]

TFH there is a little bit and mostly on duku which is more prone to this affliction. The others seem to have none to a little bit.I agree that if soething is common and cheap in your area then why plant it? It seems to be worse in lower rainfall and more season areas that have severe dry seasons.Trees with it seem to fruit well still.

[RICBITAR]

As for how long to fruit?  There is a saying that you plant these trees for your grandchildren!!  LOL! 

Here in Brazil we say the same in respect to some species of jaboticaba and cambuca, right Ricardo? But don´t worry, you´re still young enough. 

hehehehe Yes, right Cassio

[RICBITAR]

Today I went to the farm, I still have some seedling Longkong in the nursery , the bigger have about 160 centimeters, the seedlings have around 3,5 years old, the leaves are smooth, I took picture of the two sides of the leaves,

[luc]

I like Mike's numbers much better!  I need to have my mother-in-law planting one at the house.  I'm always blasted by my wife as to why I need to grow these types of plants once we are in Thailand since I could find them in the market at nearly any time.  She just doesn't get it.

Mike do you see a lot of corky bark disease on them over your way?  Seemed like every tree we encountered had this disease to one degree or another.

Yep ...Corky bark disease even here in Mexico on my 10 year old duku/longkong , doesn't seem to affect the tree , I just scrape it of once in a while . I kinda blamed it on being shaded by bamboo ( removed now ) it even spread to a litchi ( also removed )

Years ago I ran into an article about " How to tell langsat , duku and longkong apart by tasting the leaves " , I switched from PC to Mack and the article was lost....sorry

[RICBITAR]

I like Mike's numbers much better!  I need to have my mother-in-law planting one at the house.  I'm always blasted by my wife as to why I need to grow these types of plants once we are in Thailand since I could find them in the market at nearly any time.  She just doesn't get it.

Mike do you see a lot of corky bark disease on them over your way?  Seemed like every tree we encountered had this disease to one degree or another.

Yep ...Corky bark disease even here in Mexico on my 10 year old duku/longkong , doesn't seem to affect the tree , I just scrape it of once in a while . I kinda blamed it on being shaded by bamboo ( removed now ) it even spread to a litchi ( also removed )

Years ago I ran into an article about " How to tell langsat , duku and longkong apart by tasting the leaves " , I switched from PC to Mack and the article was lost....sorry

Luc,

The article is this : http://stfc.org.au/langsat-lansones-duku-or-longkong

Thanks

[Mike T]

The dukus can be told apart by their leaf smell a bit but you can only do it roughly because some dukus are closely ralated to longkong(dokong) and others are closer to langsat,some longkongs are closer to langsat than they are to other longkong.The classification is about how they look not how they are related and this messes things up.