The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: johnb51 on April 12, 2019, 10:42:01 AM
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I know we've talked about mulching fruit trees a lot on this forum. It's generally accepted to be a good practice, correct? I've always mulched under my fruit trees, and it seems to be beneficial. Well, lo and behold, when I went to purchase three fruit trees from one of the largest and most well-known nurseries in South Florida the other day (located in Lake Worth), the owner sat there and said: NEVER MULCH UNDER GRAFTED FRUIT TREES. IT'S BAD FOR THE TREES, AND THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO. YOU WILL KILL YOUR TREES. Mind you, I didn't even ask her advice on this matter. And the two guys who work there were agreeing with her in no uncertain terms. They didn't want to hear any arguments in favor of mulching or even to discuss the matter. Naturally my reaction was WTF???
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I have a variety of grafted fruit trees that I have had for years and have mulched with various types (wood chip, leaves, grass, straw/hay, whatever I can get my hands on for free). All are still standing and doing well.
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I dont know about FL but I use like a foot of mulch on all my trees. It serves many purposes. It breaks down and feeds the plants, it holds moisture in, and it keeps weeds from germinating. Its like a miracle product IMO.
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I wonder why the Mrs Wilson would say that? I have watched so many videos of other gardeners organic and not. The consensus to me is that mulch is good no matter what type of gardner you are. I love mulching it adds to my poor sandy soil provides habitat to the insects, food for fungus, and insulates the roots during temp extremes.
Edit*. Also Bill Whitman and Adolf Grimal had truck loads of mulch dumped on there groves. Those dudes did pretty good!
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All I can imagine is that someone mulched improperly and killed his trees, then came back to her to ask what happened. And she over-reacted and is still over-reacting!
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All I can imagine is that someone mulched improperly and killed his trees, then came back to her to ask what happened. And she over-reacted and is still over-reacting!
Too funny i was just discussing this with a friend who has a commercial-level peach orchard. He had been scared off of wood-chip mulch, but he recently saw that i use it abundantly (within reason, see below) around my pawpaw trees and grape vines.
But yes, John to your point above - i'm almost sure this is the deal. The problem people have with mulch that kills trees is that they do the "mulch volcano" and mound it up high right against the trunk. Basically burying a few to several inches of the trunk in mulch.
This WILL kill trees (not overnight, but in time).
I think mulch can be overdone in some conditions. I put probably close to a foot (looking at you, Brad!) of woodchip mulch over what I found out to be a naturally-water-holding section of my small orchard and I think it nearly killed the trees. I have since dramatically reduced the mulch layer.
I guess i'm in the camp of Linda Chalker-Scott who is a big champion specifically of wood-chip mulch.
I've seen no ill effects.
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My soil is pure sand so without the introduction of organic matter I won't have healthy living soil, and it will not retain any moisture.
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I dont have drainage issues so a foot of mulch is golden here. Your mileage may vary.
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I see that you referenced a "her." If that was Marlys (lady in her early - mid 60's), she tends to have strong opinions. So the proverbial grain of salt might be in order.
That said, mulching is a tricky subject. After placing over a thousand cubic yards of mulch on my own property over the course of a decade (and creating a 6 inch+ layer of muck), I've come to the conclusion that it's good in moderation.
Pros:
- eliminates weeds
- conserves soil moisture
- adds carbon and increases soil's cation exchange capacity
- holds supplemental nutrients better (less fertilizer waste)
- some tree roots appreciate the mucky consistency that results after decomposition (eg, lychees)
- encourages worms and other beneficials
- pushes pH towards neutral
Cons:
- causes imbalances between K and Ca resulting in lower brix (can be ameliorated with copious amounts of gypsum)
- locks up some micronutrients (can be mitigated with heavy and consistent application of fertilizer)
- causes phosphorous to skyrocket (not a good thing)
- many trees dislike the mucky consistency that results after decomp (eg, mangoes)
- can add nitrogen, depending on the mulch used (bad for mangoes)
- resulting mucky top layer (which retains more water + nutrients when fertilizing) encourages shallow root growth
I have 2 different lots. On the first lot, I created a layer of muck several inches thick. On the second lot, I added an inch or less, so I've been able to compare the two.
If you are good at fertilizing, you can create a very rich top layer of soil via the use of mulch, since the top layer (decomposed mulch) retains nutrients extremely well (this is a bad thing if you don't fertilize -- it locks up the little bit of nutrient that's naturally present, resulting in micronutrient deficiencies). I've had to add literally tons of gypsum to overcome jelly seed and increase brix on the trees on the heavily mulched lot.
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Yeah, I think moderation and attention to your specific conditions (e.g. difference between me and Brad’s situations) is key.
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The ideal mulch for Florida’s sandy soil is living roots, a combination of grasses, weeds and herbs kept above 6 inches. Tall living mulch is a carbon drip system for what’s living in soil the soil life feeds and sustains the tree and provides the home for soil life like fungi and bacteria. Most weeds that grow in Florida attract and are home to beneficial insects. This perfect nutrient cycling system along with the cation exchange which will naturally bind nutrients and pollutants in a stable matter that will not easily leach into the environment.
There is no plant based carbon mulch that feeds the tree unless you are mixing synthetic fertilizers in it. The synthetic fertilizers will mostly pollute your yard and leach into the environment and this will stop natural nutrient cycling. Plant carbon feeds the soil biology.
Having a tall living mulch will trigger the cation exchange and build soil. Cation exchange happens under tall grass at soil levels. Mulch or plant carbon added in small increments every other week are an excellent way to provide a perfect environment for trees to thrive. A high quality compost is best for speeding this process. I have found biodynamic manure compost tea sprays are great for building soil thru the cation exchange. The cation exchange will not happen under a thick layer of woodchips as they need grass roots and fungi to bind the organic matter and nutrients into soil structures. Eventually the carbon from thick mulch will get into the soil with the help of worms, rain and segregation but this is easily leached and will not build stable organic matter in soil. Living root system do a much better job at putting carbon and biology into the ground and for building soil thru the cation exchange. These are facts.
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well dang....now I am thinking I should just let the mulch I have there now just break down and not replace and let grass take over....
I know exactly what cookie monster is talking about when he mentions the "muck" I have a peach tree that has been there about 4 years and is always mulched 6+ inches, there is a layer of this black muck(I am sure all of my other trees have this also, have just never dug down below the mulch before on the others). It is also the only portion of my yard that has worms in it, so I thought that was a good thing....
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If you go into a forest the ground is littered with fallen leaves, twigs, branches etc. Noone is watering or fertilizing these trees and they may be hundreds or thousands of years old. There are vast mycorrhizal networks connecting these trees and they share nutrients and water. They thrive in a fungally dominated soil that is created by the trees themselves. I believe replication of this by layering tree trimmer mulch is an ideal environment to grow trees. I have been adding mulch for years consisting of tree trimmer mulch, oak leaves and yard waste and have observed no negative effects nor mineral deficiencies. The soil life is alive and loaded with worms, fungi etc.
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There are myriad other factors. For example, the amazon rainforest gets nutrition from the sky: https://www.wired.com/2015/02/sahara-keeps-amazon-green/ (https://www.wired.com/2015/02/sahara-keeps-amazon-green/)
Also, plants like mangoes are not necessarily what one would find in a rain forest :-).
At any rate, those were my observations from a little over a decade of heavy mulching (> thousand cu yards). There's plenty of info online indicating that my experience wasn't unique.
If you go into a forest the ground is littered with fallen leaves, twigs, branches etc. Noone is watering or fertilizing these trees and they may be hundreds or thousands of years old. There are vast mycorrhizal networks connecting these trees and they share nutrients and water. They thrive in a fungally dominated soil that is created by the trees themselves. I believe replication of this by layering tree trimmer mulch is an ideal environment to grow trees. I have been adding mulch for years consisting of tree trimmer mulch, oak leaves and yard waste and have observed no negative effects nor mineral deficiencies. The soil life is alive and loaded with worms, fungi etc.
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https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/wood-chips.pdf (https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/wood-chips.pdf)
One research-based opinion. But again you have to consider your situation.
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Mulch does provide a significant amount of P and K, (and N depending on the source ,ie, leafy vs woody). But the ratio of K to Ca in mulch is usually 1 to 1, which is bad for brix and flesh quality, since K takes up exchange sites that would normally be occupied by Ca. Generally want K to Ca to be 1 to 10.
You can literally watch the quality / color / flesh / brix changes by manipulating K - to - Ca ratios. I've done it.
Mulch also provides off-the-charts P in relation to K. Again not a good thing.
However while mulch provides N-P-K, organic matter locks up some micronutrients. For example, a method to ameliorate copper toxicity in soil is to add organic matter (which makes it less available).
I suppose this is somewhat dependent on mulch type. I used tree trimmer mulch, which was a mix of leaf + wood.
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the owner sat there and said: NEVER MULCH UNDER GRAFTED FRUIT TREES. IT'S BAD FOR THE TREES, AND THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO. YOU WILL KILL YOUR TREES.
I heard the same thing from a citrus nursery. "The trees will die from phytophthora."
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Ive read that mulch can inhibit phytophthora. Anyway, thats defiitely not true that it will kill a citrus tree. At least with my soil. Ive got over a foot of mulch on this mandarin tree and it is super happy. And yes, I keep it pulled away from the trunk.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfNKgwK7/20190412-093508.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfNKgwK7)
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I don't end up with muck after it breaks down either like cookie mentioned. Below the mulch and above the original soil is about an inch or so layer of soft fluffy black stuff that looks like worm castings. Its not mucky at all.
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Yah, you spoiled southern californians don't have the psycho heat, humidity, and rain that we have here. That load of mulch would be fully decomposed in 12 to 18 months here. After 12 years of doing that, you get a layer of muck.
The very first layer of mulch takes a bit longer (24+ months here). But once the first layer decomposes and the soil builds up bacteria / fungi, the next layer decomposes a lot quicker.
If you feed it nitrogen, it's even quicker.
I don't end up with muck after it breaks down either like cookie mentioned. Below the mulch and above the original soil is about an inch or so layer of soft fluffy black stuff that looks like worm castings. Its not mucky at all.
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Here in CA my piles of mulch under fruit trees do great -- they turn into a rich fungal mat, and when you pull it up you smell and see the white mycelia all throughout the mulch. Even better for fruit trees has been 1-to-1 tree trimmings to coffee grounds for restoring barren city soils. The mild acidification from the coffee grounds really helps with our alkaline soils and helps break down the mulch a bit faster to get some good soil sooner rather than later. The hard part is getting enough coffee grounds.
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Yah, you spoiled southern californians don't have the psycho heat, humidity, and rain that we have here. That load of mulch would be fully decomposed in 12 to 18 months here. After 12 years of doing that, you get a layer of muck.
The very first layer of mulch takes a bit longer (24+ months here). But once the first layer decomposes and the soil builds up bacteria / fungi, the next layer decomposes a lot quicker.
If you feed it nitrogen, it's even quicker.
I don't end up with muck after it breaks down either like cookie mentioned. Below the mulch and above the original soil is about an inch or so layer of soft fluffy black stuff that looks like worm castings. Its not mucky at all.
I will take some of that humidity off your hands. When its 115 and 0% RH out and strong wind it makes gardening a challenge.
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I hit 115 with no humidity in the summer too w/ high winds
I've only mulched my citrus and persimmon for one year (I'm in a fairly clay area in northern ca near a river)
I put about 4 inches around my trees and they are looking phenomenal! Huge difference with mulching around my trees.
I have super wet winter too (flood warnings yearly)
the mulch seems to help me. so far... Time will tell.
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I'm infected with demon sloth.
I mulch when I can get a truckload of clean tree trimmings, about once a year, not sufficient to keep a cover under my trees, but they are all doing well.
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These are facts.
Hmm, should previous statements made by you also be considered in the same manner?
Most of our Mangos are pushing flowers even the Sugar Loaf. Though at 1ft tall it might be a bit too small. I was surprised with the efficacy of various drenches these young trees got and even though I could clearly see copper was sprayed at zills, the rhizosphere was soon colonized by arbuscular mychorizal fungi as shown in the photo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q6R7JymQ/3-AB56307-BAAB-46-BF-9467-023-C7492-C8-F9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/q6R7JymQ)
I'm still researching Arbuscular mycorrhyzae, and no matter how much I read about them I find an absence of purported fruiting bodies. Or were you referring to something else in the photo?
I just have a hard time believing anyone who refers to anything scientific as 'facts' and goes around rubbing it in people's faces. Life's a lot of grey, I don't often appreciate the 'Black and White' outlook as much I guess.
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How long does it take for mulch to decompose there?
How far inland are you? Coastal San Diego was a dream when I was out there, except for the occasional Santa Ana winds that would kick the temps up 15 - 20 degrees with 0* humidity (which was nice 'cause the night time temps would get up into the 70's for a change).
I lived in Ventura County for 30 years (mostly Santa Paula), fled to Florida when housing prices started to go nuts. 12 years later, I still miss the climate. With the humidity here, I think our heat index is probably around 110* -- but for like 5 straight months without a single day of reprieve.
Yah, you spoiled southern californians don't have the psycho heat, humidity, and rain that we have here. That load of mulch would be fully decomposed in 12 to 18 months here. After 12 years of doing that, you get a layer of muck.
The very first layer of mulch takes a bit longer (24+ months here). But once the first layer decomposes and the soil builds up bacteria / fungi, the next layer decomposes a lot quicker.
If you feed it nitrogen, it's even quicker.
I don't end up with muck after it breaks down either like cookie mentioned. Below the mulch and above the original soil is about an inch or so layer of soft fluffy black stuff that looks like worm castings. Its not mucky at all.
I will take some of that humidity off your hands. When its 115 and 0% RH out and strong wind it makes gardening a challenge.
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The mulch lasts a year or 2. It goes faster on the trees that get more water like avocados.
Its 16 miles inland and 1200ft elevation here. Its a lot hotter here than near the beach. The weather is pretty spectacular down in the beach towns and downtown san diego.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
I have heard the same thing happen to others. Begs the question if there were herbicides or other harmful chemicals in the "mulch".
I only get hardwood mulch from the tree companies. If it's landscapers, the mulch probably has lots of grass and weeds in it, and much more likely to have chemicals in it, in addition to tons of weed seeds.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
And a picture if possible of the tree with the mulch.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
I have heard the same thing happen to others. Begs the question if there were herbicides or other harmful chemicals in the "mulch".
I only get hardwood mulch from the tree companies. If it's landscapers, the mulch probably has lots of grass and weeds in it, and much more likely to have chemicals in it, in addition to tons of weed seeds.
Is there something specific you like about hard wood vs softwood? My tree trimmer guy will being whatever I ask for. Ive been getting pine lately.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
Fresh mulch can reach 180 degrees F while breaking down, at which point it will catch fire. What soil temperature would kill an avocado tree? 120-130? If you take wood chips and compost them, you still have wood chips 2 months later, just much less, but much safer. Or if you do want to apply fresh mulch, make a high donut ring far from the main stem, the larger the tree the farther away you go. Make it high and as thin as possible.
Everybody's mulch is different, and your trees likely can build up a tolerance to mulching, eventually your trees can handle a huge mound of mulch around them, but don't go from zero to that much immediately.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
Fresh mulch can reach 180 degrees F while breaking down, at which point it will catch fire. What soil temperature would kill an avocado tree? 120-130? If you take wood chips and compost them, you still have wood chips 2 months later, just much less, but much safer. Or if you do want to apply fresh mulch, make a high donut ring far from the main stem, the larger the tree the farther away you go. Make it high and as thin as possible.
Everybody's mulch is different, and your trees likely can build up a tolerance to mulching, eventually your trees can handle a huge mound of mulch around them, but don't go from zero to that much immediately.
This is a very good point. We would get wood chip piles from fresh tree trimmings (particularly if there are a lot of leaves too) that are giving off sensible heat even several inches away. If you spread this on top of existing mulch (which is insulating) and the layer is not too thick the tree will likely be fine. But if you put a thick layer of fresh tree trimmings on top of tree roots that had no mulch to begin with and that tree has a lot of surface-feeder roots (like avocados) the ground and surface roots will quickly get to tree-threatening temperatures.
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I'll add a few points of fact, opinion and some documentation. Like wine and many things mulch gets better over time. I started using mulch in the early 1980s and all I had was guinea grass, a tall panicum found all over the tropics. During the 90's I farmed in Arkansas and found a derelict sawmill site which had a 20 year old mountain of sawdust/bark which had almost turned to something like chocolate cake. I worked on that for years till somebody playing around set the newer stuff on fire and it burned down deep underground.
So most recently 1-1/2 years ago I managed to get 2000 cubic yards of Hurricane Irma debris delivered. here is a video showing it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnaLWHgib5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnaLWHgib5A)
There is a big difference between mulches, usually folks speak of carbon/nitrogen ratio comparing grasses, vegetable matter, leaves and wood chips but really it comes down to the amount of carbon it contains. No organic matter except charcoal contains more carbon per volume than wood.
So far I've covered about 2 acres with it at the rate of about 1000 yards/acre. The decomposition in that time is close to 75% such that one foot turns into 3-4 inches. What I really want to show is how that happens so today I took a few pictures. In my case, in southwest Florida with 50 inches rain per year mostly in the summer and a very poor sandy soil with low organic matter the best agent of decompostion are millipedes both the long and short pill-bugs but mostly the former. These arthropods are primary decomposers of woody material worldwide but especially in tropical conditions where earthworms seem a little soft and maybe vulnerable the arthropods dominate.
Here are photos of the mulch pile once about 10 feet tall in the video above and after 1-1/2 years now about 5 feet. The millipede shown is one of thousands, millions or hundreds of millions across the property which have turned a foot of the mulch into 3-4 inches of feces technically called 'frass'.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Mc49fmV/DSC01640.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0Mc49fmV)
Close-up showing the black granular frass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ts32XkGF/DSC01641.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ts32XkGF)
These guys work day and night for me, all they want is food.
Usually the most rich ecosystems form at the interface edges between radically different systems. Examples would be estuaries where fresh meets salt water, field edges, stream edges, rocks and structures in water. All of these particular edges serve as habitats for species which can co-exist in either system but find the edge to be the best. Hunters and fishermen know this and it's true on the micro as well and the macro level.
When you put mulch on soil you create a brand new ecosystem directly at the interface of soil and air. It is cool enough, dark enough and moist enough for organisms dwelling both in and outside the soil to coexist. It is where fungi can send out their fruiting bodies called mushrooms and breed.
Here are some photos of what you can see happening at the surface of well mulched soil:
millipede working on dead banana leaves:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hJhpRdcB/DSC01638.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hJhpRdcB)
Millipede working on fallen avocado fruitlets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vgxyTTLR/DSC01642.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgxyTTLR)
Mushrooms on mulched seedling Pitomba tree on top of decomposing papaya tree trunks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fdb43qqG/DSC01644.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Fdb43qqG)
Mango tree prunings skeletonized by millipedes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/f3KCdfCm/DSC01649.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f3KCdfCm)
Mushrooms on logs which have been covered by mulch under avocado tree dripline:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PvmPL2zk/DSC01645.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PvmPL2zk)
So when millipedes eat the mulch they are consuming lignins and cellulose but derive most benefit from the bacteria and fungi already on that material. They are being predators on the primary micro-saprophytes which are already there. Within the millipede gut there is a population of lignin-digesting microorganisms which further digest the matter and thus as it is expelled as frass the material contains innoculum of bacteri, fungi and higher order creatures.
The frass has actually entered national commerce from south Florida, with the trade name "milli-poo". The sale price is $60 USD per cubic foot with the intended use as an ingredient in compost tea. An acre 3 inches deep with frass is 10,000 cubic feet so I'm almost a millionaire.
https://www.boogiebrew.net/millipoo/ (https://www.boogiebrew.net/millipoo/)
Yes there's probably some hype there but they did get the stuff analyzed and found it highly enriched in fungal and less in bacteria.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kpnx1WsGFi0gzmNbA17LTPGcQv3FkP_g/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kpnx1WsGFi0gzmNbA17LTPGcQv3FkP_g/view)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dFDltJXoZXDi6x7bZ1MmJEF1b2DniQUU/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dFDltJXoZXDi6x7bZ1MmJEF1b2DniQUU/view?usp=sharing)
If you like journal papers this one took dried leaves in vitro with millipedes and found they do a good job generating nitrogen and calcium and can modify soil ph.
https://www.fs.fed.us/global/iitf/pubs/bc_iitf_2012_Gonzalez001.pdf (https://www.fs.fed.us/global/iitf/pubs/bc_iitf_2012_Gonzalez001.pdf)
Last night we hit the lottery. A 1/4 inch rain fell across our 2 acres, it equalled 13,000 gallons of milli-poo tea!
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Good information, pineislander. I never knew the why and the how of those little critters.
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We have imported tens of thousands of cubic yds of mulch over the past couple years. Cookie has some great information regarding the affects of mulching heavily long term. One thing I've learned about growing (even life for that matter) is that you have to do the best you can with what you've got. You will find varying opinions on how to grow fruit trees or how to manage a farm but everybody's land, financial situation, resource constraints, and priorities are uniquely different. As others have previously mentioned there are tradeoffs when incorporating mulch into your program. For us the benefit of heavy mulching in the early years out weighted some of the disadvantages. Weed suppression and increasing CEC were our primary objectives. I look forward to the next soil analysis after two full years of mulching heavily.
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Update on neighbor's avocado. She said the tree was trimmed, and trimmings from the tree were used to mulch. Tree was dead within a week. Sounds like combo of stress from trimming combined with over-mulching/choking the tree out.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
I have heard the same thing happen to others. Begs the question if there were herbicides or other harmful chemicals in the "mulch".
I only get hardwood mulch from the tree companies. If it's landscapers, the mulch probably has lots of grass and weeds in it, and much more likely to have chemicals in it, in addition to tons of weed seeds.
Is there something specific you like about hard wood vs softwood? My tree trimmer guy will being whatever I ask for. Ive been getting pine lately.
I dont know why I said hardwood. I meant like hard wood chip mulch from trees. Not soft grass clippings, weeds, palm or brush landscaping mulch.
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Update on neighbor's avocado. She said the tree was trimmed, and trimmings from the tree were used to mulch. Tree was dead within a week. Sounds like combo of stress from trimming combined with over-mulching/choking the tree out.
I actually doubt pruning the tree would produce so much mulch to damage the tree. I just did that to a tree and had no ill effects, and have done it before. Last year I pruned, laid wood logs side by side to cover the 10 ft wide bed and mulched over the logs till the logs could not be seen and fertilized with compost, biochar and slow release fertilizer all at the same time, then installed sprinkler irrigation. The result was strong growth and a complete rebuilding of the canopy of some severely stunted avocado trees. This was on a 100 ft long bed of avocado trees about 20 trees total. It was done last July during the rainy seson. They flowered and set lots of fruit this year and have held fruit to 1" size so far it looks like the row is now in full production for the season. I have also interplanted a dozen papaya trees and two Sabara Jaboticaba, several Monstera, many Jack bean and pigeon pea support plants in the same bed. All are growing fine so I think that mulching avocado is the absolute best thing you could do. They are known to have a superficial surface feeder root system which will only benefit from mulch. The biggest fault avocado has is a susceptibility to root and trunk rot from standing water. Please have a look at the amount of mulch being used in avocado in Australia and all the cautions but note the mounds they are planted on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYYZuNjnvbk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYYZuNjnvbk)
Similar results in California:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBMvGhHuXxU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBMvGhHuXxU)
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Brad
If you mulch that much on avocado, how do you apply the fertilizer? Do you just throw it over the mulch or dig up the mulch and spread the fertlizer?
The mulch lasts a year or 2. It goes faster on the trees that get more water like avocados.
Its 16 miles inland and 1200ft elevation here. Its a lot hotter here than near the beach. The weather is pretty spectacular down in the beach towns and downtown san diego.
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Brad
If you mulch that much on avocado, how do you apply the fertilizer? Do you just throw it over the mulch or dig up the mulch and spread the fertlizer?
The mulch lasts a year or 2. It goes faster on the trees that get more water like avocados.
Its 16 miles inland and 1200ft elevation here. Its a lot hotter here than near the beach. The weather is pretty spectacular down in the beach towns and downtown san diego.
If you just have a couple trees to do then you can just spread it over the mulch and then work in with your hands and then hose it real good.
Im going to have to put a disclaimer on all my posts that people shouldn't do what I do as everyones situation is different. Most residential areas in sandiego have garbage soil. Clay, rock, no drainage. So maybe lots of mulch or lots of fertilizer will drown and burn you tree. My soil drains super fast so I can mulch hard and fertilize and flush my soil etc. So be carefull with mulch and fertilizer. You got to use some moderation and judgement.
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That guy that told never to mulch a grafted tree ,i think he sayd that because somme people use mulch in excess and if you use thick mulch that covers the graft its bad just like plabting the tree with the graft under the soil level.Use less mulch so that you dont get past the graft .
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I have a few palms in my yard and they are always dropping fronds especially the self cleaning arica palms, so I strip the fronds and through the leaves around the base of the trees, here is my oro negro avocado.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N56yJw3h/7-A0-CC843-FEC8-4-B1-B-A709-352-AAC6-E657-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N56yJw3h)
Only costs me some extra time 😎
-Joep450
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I just rented a chipper for a major cleanup and chipped many kinds of trees I have removed from the yard. I plan to amend a large section of my yard with compost then spread this pile on top.
I got probably 10 yards of mulch out of it to spread around. my 'custom blend' includes
Fruitless plum,
Cherry,
Palm,
Bay Laurel,
Sycamore,
Persimmon,
Last years christmas tree,
some other bush/trees with hard blue berries that stain my concrete
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
very fresh raw mulch can kill the tree when combined with water. The mulch gets hot, very hot if its fresh wood clippings as its trying to decompose, similar to how compost gets hot. that heat can literally kill plants and trees.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
very fresh raw mulch can kill the tree when combined with water. The mulch gets hot, very hot if its fresh wood clippings as its trying to decompose, similar to how compost gets hot. that heat can literally kill plants and trees.
Which minimum thickness ignites the heat process? do you think even a thin layer would become hot in moist conditions?
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I don't know thickness but I was always told to use mulch that has gone thru the process of initial heat dissipation. Usually that is 2-3 months in a pile.
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Mulch on its own doesnt gets hot because it lacks nitrogen.But if you add a rich nitrogen source like fertiliser ,over the mulch,then,the decomposition process will start and could get hot,especially if you have a big pile of mulch.Mulch from fresh material it also sequester nitrogen from the soil .I use it only 5-10 centimeters thick in my orchards without causing problems.
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I have a tractor mounted chipper and point the chute directly into my truck for easy transport. I've applied fresh chipped mulch from legume trees (Acacia) and applied 4 inches thick with no problem. If it is thicker like a pickup truck full it will heat up. Like the video I posted from Australia above says, however, some fresh chipped material can be harmful and they suggest letting it age. They also show a test which involves soaking the chips in water to see it they stain the water. I will say that aged mulch has significant benefits and gets better with age. I sift out old mulch which has been decomposed and get a fairly good potting mix.
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I have a tractor mounted chipper and point the chute directly into my truck for easy transport. I've applied fresh chipped mulch from legume trees (Acacia) and applied 4 inches thick with no problem. If it is thicker like a pickup truck full it will heat up. Like the video I posted from Australia above says, however, some fresh chipped material can be harmful and they suggest letting it age. They also show a test which involves soaking the chips in water to see it they stain the water. I will say that aged mulch has significant benefits and gets better with age. I sift out old mulch which has been decomposed and get a fairly good potting mix.
Agreed. A good mulch has some fines and color is sort of faded to turning black. that is good stuff. I see some very fresh wood chips like it just came off the mill, that I would stay away from.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
very fresh raw mulch can kill the tree when combined with water. The mulch gets hot, very hot if its fresh wood clippings as its trying to decompose, similar to how compost gets hot. that heat can literally kill plants and trees.
That makes sense. A few years ago, our yard went through a major transformation. We chopped down a bunch of trees (mostly hong kong orchid, 1 large avocado, etc.). The large piles of mulch/clippings smoked noticeably for a couple of days. Steady clouds emanating from the piles. A strange sight.
The landscapers eventually took all of the trimmings, and brought back aged mulch. They have a mini-mountain of mulch from all their jobs. The owner said old mulch was better, but don't recall him saying why. He also owns a private nursery (ornamentals and some fruit trees including rollinia) and seems to know plants well. Must know something is up with fresh mulch.
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My neighbor just told me that landscapers had heavily mulched her avocado tree (week or 2 ago?), and it quickly died. It was a large tree. The stump is at least 2 feet in diameter. Will try to get more info.
very fresh raw mulch can kill the tree when combined with water. The mulch gets hot, very hot if its fresh wood clippings as its trying to decompose, similar to how compost gets hot. that heat can literally kill plants and trees.
That makes sense. A few years ago, our yard went through a major transformation. We chopped down a bunch of trees (mostly hong kong orchid, 1 large avocado, etc.). The large piles of mulch/clippings smoked noticeably for a couple of days. Steady clouds emanating from the piles. A strange sight.
The landscapers eventually took all of the trimmings, and brought back aged mulch. They have a mini-mountain of mulch from all their jobs. The owner said old mulch was better, but don't recall him saying why. He also owns a private nursery (ornamentals and some fruit trees including rollinia) and seems to know plants well. Must know something is up with fresh mulch.
One of my first fires was a mulch fire. I thought the guy had intended to burn it. Nope he just flicked a cigarette onto a steaming pile of mulch and it ignited and erased his eyebrows. I know fresh mulch heats up I know highly resinous mulch can be prone to spontaneous combustion. But that was a stars aligned moment for it flashover and produce such a explosive result.
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These are facts.
Hmm, should previous statements made by you also be considered in the same manner?
Most of our Mangos are pushing flowers even the Sugar Loaf. Though at 1ft tall it might be a bit too small. I was surprised with the efficacy of various drenches these young trees got and even though I could clearly see copper was sprayed at zills, the rhizosphere was soon colonized by arbuscular mychorizal fungi as shown in the photo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q6R7JymQ/3-AB56307-BAAB-46-BF-9467-023-C7492-C8-F9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/q6R7JymQ)
I'm still researching Arbuscular mycorrhyzae, and no matter how much I read about them I find an absence of purported fruiting bodies. Or were you referring to something else in the photo?
I just have a hard time believing anyone who refers to anything scientific as 'facts' and goes around rubbing it in people's faces. Life's a lot of grey, I don't often appreciate the 'Black and White' outlook as much I guess.
Just trying to help people fix their sandy soil to grow tropical fruit trees in Florida without polluting. I try to base my information I share on science. Here is a link on your fungi you couldn’t find. (http://archive.bio.ed.ac.uk/jdeacon/microbes/mycorrh.htm#Top (http://archive.bio.ed.ac.uk/jdeacon/microbes/mycorrh.htm#Top)) Building soil is what most farmers try and accomplish. Adding compost or other organic carbon is not building soil but is important. Building soil is changing the soil structure, it all happens at soil surface not under thick wood chips. The soil surface needs a wet and drying period for aggregates to form. It starts with roots in the ground. The best way to do it in Florida is with a biodiverse group of warm weather grasses and weeds left to grow tall and fed a high quality carbon source in small increments (compost). Living plants are mulch. This will give structure to Florida sand. Sorry to offend you, that was never my intention but these are the facts if you want to improve your sandy Florida soil via mulch
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Don't weeds compete with the roots of whatever you are trying to grow? Weeds usually have strong root systems and are very vigorous. It seems like they would hog all the available nutrients and root space. Should we leave all weeds under our fruit trees and not mulch?
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Don't weeds compete with the roots of whatever you are trying to grow? Weeds usually have strong root systems and are very vigorous. It seems like they would hog all the available nutrients and root space. Should we leave all weeds under our fruit trees and not mulch?
I am just talking about Florida’s white sandy soil which in most yards is compacted sand or fill with a chemical hard pan due to poor management. My experience in Jamul in San Diego county, lack of water and crushed granite for growing medium would be wood chips and ice plant but I would have to think on it. I thought on it...I would probably use hay and alfalfa and for a non polluting fertilizer every ten days very small quantities of quality compost, Bokashi leachate (except on annonas and Garcinias) and indigenous microorganisms microbial sprays every week, as the wood chips might cause nutrient fixation. Also keeping a perennial warm weather living grass mulch would probably be unsustainable there. I haven’t had a problem with weeds, they usually only pop up in problem areas, but the good out weigh the bad. It is all about biodiversity and getting carbon into the soil deep which weeds are good at doing.
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Here's what 12+ years of mulching looks like after it's fully decomposed. This layer is 6 - 10 inches deep across 1/3 acre. The earthworms do a great job of mixing the sand below with the decomposed mulch above.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDdjNrjK/IMG-0084-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dDdjNrjK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VdhMYNRF/IMG-0085.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdhMYNRF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YjbYsRLZ/IMG-0086.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YjbYsRLZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HVnXDMQx/IMG-0087.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HVnXDMQx)
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The only issue i have had with mulching is once you start its hard to stop. The tree roots grow up into the mulch and when the mulch is gone the roots are exposed. Black sapote trees that we have here suffered from this badly.
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The related issue is that the feeder roots start to favor the thin layer of decomposed mulch (which holds moisture) and when drought hits, the trees do poorly due to the shallow root system.
The only issue i have had with mulching is once you start its hard to stop. The tree roots grow up into the mulch and when the mulch is gone the roots are exposed. Black sapote trees that we have here suffered from this badly.
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Mulch is good but has its downsides .It takes the nitrogen out of the soil to decompose .Because it lacks nitrogen ,it decomposes verry slow and thats the purpose of the mulch,to be slow to break down.If you want to compost wood chips or straws you need to add a nitrogen source like urine or else it shouldnt compost or get hot on its own.Another big danger its that it favours Mycorrhizae but it can also favour parasite fungi like Armillaria sp that have a wide range of hosts and if it infects a tree then its doomed- you can start growing mushrooms instead of fruit trees.
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Dump truck loads of mulch with green leaf material will heat up on their own.
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Here's what 12+ years of mulching looks like after it's fully decomposed. This layer is 6 - 10 inches deep across 1/3 acre. The earthworms do a great job of mixing the sand below with the decomposed mulch above.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDdjNrjK/IMG-0084-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dDdjNrjK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VdhMYNRF/IMG-0085.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdhMYNRF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YjbYsRLZ/IMG-0086.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YjbYsRLZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HVnXDMQx/IMG-0087.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HVnXDMQx)
That there is a healthy layer of topsoil you've generated. After two years of mulching I'm now starting to see this too.
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Thanks. The soil is very healthy. Lots of earthworms and microbial activity. The counter-intuitive part was that my trees were all experiencing worsening nutrient deficiencies and the quality of fruit was steadily declining year after year as I continued to apply mulch. That's when I hired Har to consult, who guided me through the process of discovery that mulch alone is not sufficient for healthy plants. Took me a couple of years before I finally was able to believe it.
The awesome part is -- once I started laying down nutrition, tree health and fruit quality started to improve, and now my trees are healthier than ever. That soil is sort of like a giant reservoir. Once you fill it up, it holds nutrients very well. CEC is in the 20's.
A lot of people reference environments like the amazon rainforest as evidence as to why mulch alone is sufficient. However, few realize that the amazon rainforest actually gets its nutrition from the sky -- in the form of dust storms from ancient sea beds, which travel across the ocean. Unfortunately, Florida doesn't benefit from that :-).
Contrary to what I once believed, conventional fertilizers don't seem to have an impact on soil beneficials. I've been using conventional fertilizers for over 3 years, and worm activity has not declined as far as I can tell.
At any rate, the key is to come to grips with the notion that mulching alone is usually not sufficient, which for me was a tough pill to swallow. Over the short term, mulch doesn't have much of an effect. But after many years of mulching and the accumulation several inches of decomposed plant matter (where feeder roots begin to live exclusively in the decomposed mulch), the effects are easily observed. Also, a simple mulch ring around a tree will likely never have a significant impact on tree health nor fruit quality. It's only when you mulch over the entire yard, where one is substantially changing the soil composition, that the adverse affects are readily visible.
That there is a healthy layer of topsoil you've generated. After two years of mulching I'm now starting to see this too.
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This thread is scaring me :o
I have not come close to what cookie has done over all those years with that much mulch, and I'm not on sand, but now i'm nervous.
I have woodchips over several hundred square feet in which i have planted 27 or so fruit trees.
EDIT - probably about 4-6 inches of woodchips initially.
I actually sheet mulched with manure and other organics under the wood-chip (i.e. tree trimmings) mulch. This was 2 years ago. I have only sparingly, if at all, added more chips.
I fertilize around the drip line with organics (chicken manure, alfalfa meal).
I hope I will be ok long-term but now i wonder if I should just let nature take over...if I do nothing, it will be covered in weeds in probably 2 years....
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Every time I see a commercial fruit tree farm I have never seen mulch, besides whatever leaves the tree drops naturally. Makes you think there is a reason why they don't mulch. ???
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Every time I see a commercial fruit tree farm I have never seen mulch, besides whatever leaves the tree drops naturally. Makes you think there is a reason why they don't mulch. ???
I had the same thought, but there could be many reasons, not least among them cost $$
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Every time I see a commercial fruit tree farm I have never seen mulch, besides whatever leaves the tree drops naturally. Makes you think there is a reason why they don't mulch. ???
Cost
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Every time I see a commercial fruit tree farm I have never seen mulch, besides whatever leaves the tree drops naturally. Makes you think there is a reason why they don't mulch. ???
I had the same thought, but there could be many reasons, not least among them cost $$
Most people can get free mulch if you know what you are doing. For commercial size applications I have seen where people get it delivered by the dump truck load and just have to give the guys gas money. Most tree trimming businesses dump their chips/mulch at the dump, which costs money. So if they have a place to dump it for free they are usually happy to. So why wouldn’t commercial farms do this?
Also all of the u-pick fruit places I have been to, no mulch. Not on peaches, berry bushes, mulberries, anywhere.
Videos I have seen from people with mangrove groves, no mulch. Fruit and spice park in Florida, from the videos I have seen, no mulch. I did see where they put lemon grass and other plants next to trees though. I think I am going this route.
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Sure - I got my chips for free.
Labor cost to spread it, perhaps. Most places prefer quick and easy roundup.
Not saying you’re not correct but just speculation on other factors.
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The ideal mulch for Florida’s sandy soil is living roots, a combination of grasses, weeds and herbs kept above 6 inches. Tall living mulch is a carbon drip system for what’s living in soil the soil life feeds and sustains the tree and provides the home for soil life like fungi and bacteria. Most weeds that grow in Florida attract and are home to beneficial insects. This perfect nutrient cycling system along with the cation exchange which will naturally bind nutrients and pollutants in a stable matter that will not easily leach into the environment.
Most members in cities don't have the option to let weeds grow over 6 inches, that is a code violation. Just like the Demeter certification system you chose restricts you from bringing in resources from off-farm, they can't grow weeds. No organic material source is higher in carbon than woody material, no weed, grass, or plant comes close.
There is no plant based carbon mulch that feeds the tree unless you are mixing synthetic fertilizers in it. The synthetic fertilizers will mostly pollute your yard and leach into the environment and this will stop natural nutrient cycling. Plant carbon feeds the soil biology.
Definitely not true. Any plant based mulch will recycle nutrients in the material back into the soil with no need for synthetic fertilizer. That is a natural process which happens in nature all the time. Mulch as it decomposes is a microcosm of life and is in fact an ecosystem of it's own with macro/microorganisms including bacteria, fungi, nematodes, protozoans, arthropods, insects, even snakes, lizards, toads, moles. The life itself which is in the mulch as it decomposes represents to a large extent the source of nutrients which will feed the tree. The life is cellular and contains all the components of life, the dead bodies of micro and macro life and their excrement. That is also what happens in natural forest systems we can observe any time.
Having a tall living mulch will trigger the cation exchange and build soil. Cation exchange happens under tall grass at soil levels. Mulch or plant carbon added in small increments every other week are an excellent way to provide a perfect environment for trees to thrive. A high quality compost is best for speeding this process. I have found biodynamic manure compost tea sprays are great for building soil thru the cation exchange.
Well first you say only roots can supply fertility then just small amounts of mulch. What I see is that larger amounts of mulch combined with macro and micro life does generate compost in place. When it rains, the composting mulch washes down obviating the need to prepare and spray manure or compost teas. Eventually shade from well grown trees will reduce if not eliminate most plants/weeds unless they are adaptable to shade, and leaf fall and pruning will begin to accumulate mulch on their own as if in a forest so why not jump start the process?
On my plantings I use mulch but also plants adjacent and far between trees, a full ground cover relying on legumes and so I am working with both ideas, one doesn't mean you can't do both.
The cation exchange will not happen under a thick layer of woodchips as they need grass roots and fungi to bind the organic matter and nutrients into soil structures. Eventually the carbon from thick mulch will get into the soil with the help of worms, rain and segregation but this is easily leached and will not build stable organic matter in soil. Living root system do a much better job at putting carbon and biology into the ground and for building soil thru the cation exchange. These are facts.
Cation exchange can happen or be improved absent any living plants or roots at all. Cation exchange can be simply from clay fractions or organic matter such as compost. There is no reason to say that thicker mulch would prevent cation exchange fro happening, would not build stable organic matter, or let it leach out. Mulch builds organic matter no different from any other organic matter.
Fungi happen to love mulch it is their food. Macro and micro life of all types consume organic matter and mulch, even thick mulch will form soil structures and build organic matter in soil. Organic matter from mulch will not leach any differently from organic matter from plant roots. One benefit of plant roots is that they advance down into the soil and is why I do use plants even trees and bananas since they have the most aggressive roots. I even use root crops which I can make productive use of. As root crops get harvested some deeper soil mixing happens for free.
However, my main complaint with the ideas you put forth is the dogmatic approach. Likely what you are saying is a result of the constraints imposed by your certification which limits off-farm inputs. That constaraint is your choice but isn't necesarily the only or possibly even the best way. It is your way and you are certainly free to do as you please.
Using mulch if ordinary precautions are followed does no harm, it has always been known to be beneficial.
Using mulch, even thick mulch definitely does not mean having no support plants/weeds/trees along with the mulches. You can have it both ways. Mulch does not have to be thin to work, it can be thick as well and many have proven that. I see mulch as being an entire ecosystem which produces as much as it recycles and works as an edge against sun, heat and evaporation, and a way to prevent unwanted plants so that more productive plants can be utilized.
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Well put man. I've only seen significant benefits in the use of thick layers of woodchip mulch :) It's a long term investment that pays off if you're consistent.
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One thing you missed PineIslander.
It's really good at upsetting the people at the HOA.
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I think that comercial farmers dont use mulch because they like to till the land and mow the weeds .In case you till the land i think that the mulch has to be replaced each year.I use thin straw mulch around my trees and underneath it ,its always wet.I replace it every ear thogh because it gets lost while digging the land.
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Change is inevitable and all things on earth subject to change.
It is believed that most of the earth has been here since the beginning and very few items leave the earth and it's atmosphere.
This is a primarily enclosed system under various forces/pressures/temperatures.... Expect the eventual reuse of most materials regardless if today one considers it clean, unclean, nontoxic, toxic, etc. etc. etc. They are all relative terms. Also there is no stable soil as all is changing.
I loved the Keanu Reeves as Klaatu quote when destruction and elimination of earth & its inhabitants was near he told the people listening::: Paraphasing "Don't worry, Nothing (matter or energy) will be wasted, It will all be reused in the future."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Earth_Stood_Still_(2008_film)
Either way is ok...
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With or without the human species.
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I had a hard top layer of soil, over past 5 years with mulching the soil has become very soft and you can drive a thin stake 12-18 inches without hammer. I believe that work mulch needed to do is done, as trees mature, all I will be doing is fertilize them both organic and non organic. once in a while do a very thin layer of much may be every 2-3 yrs, no more than 1" thick. Thoughts?
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I had a hard top layer of soil, over past 5 years with mulching the soil has become very soft and you can drive a thin stake 12-18 inches without hammer. I believe that work mulch needed to do is done, as trees mature, all I will be doing is fertilize them both organic and non organic. once in a while do a very thin layer of much may be every 2-3 yrs, no more than 1" thick. Thoughts?
I can't answer to the question about if you should keep working with mulch at the same rate or change to the every 2-3 years model. But I can confirm that my soil became very soft as well, and I'm using mulch only since 2017. Under mulching is much easier to drive a stick to ensure a grafting that is growing too fast for example.
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I had a hard top layer of soil, over past 5 years with mulching the soil has become very soft and you can drive a thin stake 12-18 inches without hammer. I believe that work mulch needed to do is done, as trees mature, all I will be doing is fertilize them both organic and non organic. once in a while do a very thin layer of much may be every 2-3 yrs, no more than 1" thick. Thoughts?
I agree with the thinner mulch under mature trees, and you may even explore living shade loving cover plants under the tree. They can help become a "catch net" to hold leaf fall and encourage build up under a tree. Most if not all prunings from the trees need to be recycled and can amount to a large amount of material. Organic matter isn't permanent, it does eventually mineralize especially in humid tropical conditions. If something isn't added, grown or recycled organic matter levels won't stay in equilibrium but will steadily decrease over time leaving the soil unprotected.