The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: greg794855 on November 12, 2018, 12:04:56 PM
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So our camu camu forest is doing amazing. A lot of work in this project. Most trees are 6-9 feet tall and fruiting....a bunch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qtV4kfkn/camu-camu-update.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtV4kfkn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/S2c011Qc/IMG-9888.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/S2c011Qc)
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:o :o :o :o :o
Holy crap!
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(https://i.imgflip.com/1b69pl.jpg)
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Nice job! What will you do with the fruits?
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Nice job! What will you do with the fruits?
Testing and product development.
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OMG. This is really a Camu Camy forest!
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Super food! Ultra high Vitamin C , I use the powder in smoothies.
Ed
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Nice setup, good to see some nice experimental rare fruit grove growers.
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Nice setup, good to see some nice experimental rare fruit grove growers.
I hope the berries ripen before they freeze. I'm not worried about the trees freezing at this point though.
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Super food! Ultra high Vitamin C , I use the powder in smoothies.
Ed
We are hoping to get a bunch of fruit over the next year or so.
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OMG. This is really a Camu Camy forest!
This is one of several runs we have. We have 1000s of Camu Camu trees growing right now.
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Nice!
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Nice setup, good to see some nice experimental rare fruit grove growers.
I hope the berries ripen before they freeze. I'm not worried about the trees freezing at this point though.
how u heating them?
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How are the Camus grown in terms of the medium, watering, etc.? How long do they take to come into production?
Thanks, Peter
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Nice setup, good to see some nice experimental rare fruit grove growers.
I hope the berries ripen before they freeze. I'm not worried about the trees freezing at this point though.
how u heating them?
We aren't heating them.... This is where the 9 years of research we have been doing will change what everyone thought.
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How are the Camus grown in terms of the medium, watering, etc.? How long do they take to come into production?
Thanks, Peter
Peter,
We are not disclosing the medium yet, no added ph adjustments in over 3 years. We got these to fruit in less than 4 years. Some less than 3.
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Interesting, I’m kind of trying to duplicate what I understand their natural setting to be with occasional flooding. Right now they’re in about 2” of water as it’s pretty rainy at the moment. They look alright but not a fast grower. Nobody I know here actually has them in production. Mine are about 1 year old, kind of scrawny, maybe 3-4 ft. I’m not too sure what to expect.
Thanks, Peter
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Nice setup, good to see some nice experimental rare fruit grove growers.
I hope the berries ripen before they freeze. I'm not worried about the trees freezing at this point though.
how u heating them?
With the overhead water during cold nights, I don't think he would have to worry to much.
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Nice setup, good to see some nice experimental rare fruit grove growers.
I hope the berries ripen before they freeze. I'm not worried about the trees freezing at this point though.
how u heating them?
With the overhead water during cold nights, I don't think he would have to worry to much.
We don’t heat......at all. We have recorded temps below 20°F and all pictured survived. I will not disclose how though.....not yet.
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Too bad you aren’t willing to share what you’ve learned. We’re very open as I think most participants on this forum are.
Peter
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Too bad you aren’t willing to share what you’ve learned. We’re very open as I think most participants on this forum are.
Peter
Peter,
I will definitely share when I can confirm more data. I don’t like giving information that is inaccurate. People spend a lot of money on products just as I have.
I actually started getting information from here on how to grow Camu Camu. I spent $1,000s over 9 years in this, through trial and error with the information from this forum. Most of which I tinkered with and cross referenced. Some which was found inaccurate. I am not a person that will tell someone as such in an open forum with kind people.
I posted here to share some information obtained so far and to show progress. Some information I will hold until I get better results. Other parts are proprietary.
As far as helping your growing camu camu now. You are on the right track in that you are trying to simulate the conditions, but they don’t need to be exact. Use good soil, water with non-chlorinated water daily and watch it grow. Fertilize 1-2 times a year. The plants don’t need to be in water constantly.
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Just as medical doctors and lawyers and architects and industrial designers and so on aren't required to freely dispense the knowledge that has been costly for them to acquire, so it is with horticulturists as well. Just because you may be in one of those very profitable professions and regard "messing around with plants" as merely a fun hobby to share about and have competitions about, does not therefor make inappropriate someone else's reticence to give out their horticultural information upon which they are hoping to make a better living.
The adverse effects of losing exclusivity too soon to one's hard-earned techniques can be severe and swift. In economics, the band-wagon effect is very destructive.
As is industrial espionage. I witnessed a nursery, from one year to the next, go from selling about 10 thousands of grafted trees of one species, per year, to one or two hundred--- because a more conveniently located nursery paid an employee to teach them the technique.
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Just as medical doctors and lawyers and architects and industrial designers and so on aren't required to freely dispense the knowledge that has been costly for them to acquire, so it is with horticulturists as well. Just because you may be in one of those very profitable professions and regard "messing around with plants" as merely a fun hobby to share about and have competitions about, does not therefor make inappropriate someone else's reticence to give out their horticultural information upon which they are hoping to make a better living.
The adverse effects of losing exclusivity too soon to one's hard-earned techniques can be severe and swift. In economics, the band-wagon effect is very destructive.
As is industrial espionage. I witnessed a nursery, from one year to the next, go from selling about 10 thousands of grafted trees of one species, per year, to one or two hundred--- because a more conveniently located nursery paid an employee to teach them the technique.
Well put. I also know many have tried and failed with growing camu camu for many years. Most have given up. Some give up after a couple of tries, some after a couple of years. If I can find a way to profit and help with this on a large scale I will do everything I can. With that said, I will not hand over my "Playbook" after many years of trials, countless hours of research, and continuous product development.
As of right now, we are still about a year or so away from actual product deployment. Just as stated above, I will not make the same mistake an entire country made in the development of this fascinating fruit by selling to the market before I can determine a proper plan of action.
I will keep this post updated as much as possible in regards to information on progress and information that has already been posted in other areas with clarification.
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Just as medical doctors and lawyers and architects and industrial designers and so on aren't required to freely dispense the knowledge that has been costly for them to acquire, so it is with horticulturists as well. Just because you may be in one of those very profitable professions and regard "messing around with plants" as merely a fun hobby to share about and have competitions about, does not therefor make inappropriate someone else's reticence to give out their horticultural information upon which they are hoping to make a better living.
The adverse effects of losing exclusivity too soon to one's hard-earned techniques can be severe and swift. In economics, the band-wagon effect is very destructive.
As is industrial espionage. I witnessed a nursery, from one year to the next, go from selling about 10 thousands of grafted trees of one species, per year, to one or two hundred--- because a more conveniently located nursery paid an employee to teach them the technique.
Well put. I also know many have tried and failed with growing camu camu for many years. Most have given up. Some give up after a couple of tries, some after a couple of years. If I can find a way to profit and help with this on a large scale I will do everything I can. With that said, I will not hand over my "Playbook" after many years of trials, countless hours of research, and continuous product development.
As of right now, we are still about a year or so away from actual product deployment. Just as stated above, I will not make the same mistake an entire country made in the development of this fascinating fruit by selling to the market before I can determine a proper plan of action.
I will keep this post updated as much as possible in regards to information on progress and information that has already been posted in other areas with clarification.
but i think this is the reason we don't know how the pyramids were built. :P ;D
btw, my camu camus are finally setting fruits in a 15 gal pot about 7y old, 8ft tall...the hardest part of keeping them alive is keeping pH low.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4mxxWvQm/IMG-1795.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4mxxWvQm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jL3dmWMv/IMG-1796.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jL3dmWMv)
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Just as medical doctors and lawyers and architects and industrial designers and so on aren't required to freely dispense the knowledge that has been costly for them to acquire, so it is with horticulturists as well. Just because you may be in one of those very profitable professions and regard "messing around with plants" as merely a fun hobby to share about and have competitions about, does not therefor make inappropriate someone else's reticence to give out their horticultural information upon which they are hoping to make a better living.
The adverse effects of losing exclusivity too soon to one's hard-earned techniques can be severe and swift. In economics, the band-wagon effect is very destructive.
As is industrial espionage. I witnessed a nursery, from one year to the next, go from selling about 10 thousands of grafted trees of one species, per year, to one or two hundred--- because a more conveniently located nursery paid an employee to teach them the technique.
That's AWESOMENESS!!!! CONGRATS!
Well put. I also know many have tried and failed with growing camu camu for many years. Most have given up. Some give up after a couple of tries, some after a couple of years. If I can find a way to profit and help with this on a large scale I will do everything I can. With that said, I will not hand over my "Playbook" after many years of trials, countless hours of research, and continuous product development.
As of right now, we are still about a year or so away from actual product deployment. Just as stated above, I will not make the same mistake an entire country made in the development of this fascinating fruit by selling to the market before I can determine a proper plan of action.
I will keep this post updated as much as possible in regards to information on progress and information that has already been posted in other areas with clarification.
but i think this is the reason we don't know how the pyramids were built. :P ;D
btw, my camu camus are finally setting fruits in a 15 gal pot about 7y old, 8ft tall...the hardest part of keeping them alive is keeping pH low.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4mxxWvQm/IMG-1795.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4mxxWvQm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jL3dmWMv/IMG-1796.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jL3dmWMv)
Awesomeness! Congrats! The ph issue will be a thing of the past not long from now. I was late on taking pics of open flowers. I did't think they would fruit this year.
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Congratulations Greg! I do understand that you worked hard for that knowledge and giving it all away is silly. But can you tell me where you purchased your shade house from? I really like that design.
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Congratulations Greg! I do understand that you worked hard for that knowledge and giving it all away is silly. But can you tell me where you purchased your shade house from? I really like that design.
It’s a commercial size greenhouse with shade cloth over it. The grow site is a nursery.
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Guanabanas,medical science is open source.
I understand, but you know, I’m not a trust fund guy, I’m a commercial grower who will never be able to retire. But I’m successful and enjoy sharing with others as you might see from my posts.
The reason I am on this forum is not to boast about my success but to share and learn especially. I have really learned a LOT from some pretty knowledgeable people who post here.
Saludos
Peter
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I know several people who maintain proprietary information within their horticultural practice. But they don’t post on this forum. Because, what would be the purpose of posting if you’re not willing to share your experiences, your learning process with others as most of us do?
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One can actually do both: be very helpful about most categories of information, but sometimes choose to say that something is proprietary, and expect that that simply be accepted.
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I don’t get the point of posting then. To say,’ look what we’ve accomplished’ but be unwilling to share how you did it...
I’ve posted a lot on this forum but I have read tens of thousands of posts and it is hard for me to remember sometime that someone refused to share information about how they succeeded in some project that interests us. People whose income relies on their expertise, say Oscar, for example, share info on seed storing, etc. It’s how this forum works, why we come back to it everyday.
Peter
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I don’t get the point of posting then. To say,’ look what we’ve accomplished’ but be unwilling to share how you did it...
I’ve posted a lot on this forum but I have read tens of thousands of posts and it is hard for me to remember sometime that someone refused to share information about how they succeeded in some project that interests us. People whose income relies on their expertise, say Oscar, for example, share info on seed storing, etc. It’s how this forum works, why we come back to it everyday.
Peter
Medical science is also proprietary.
Most of the info on Camu Camu is free and easy to find. Some of the methods I am using are proprietary. I have implemented a system and stuck with it. I’m not a trust funder either. I’m a high school teacher with a background in criminal justice, psychology and sociology. I took horticulture classes for fun.
I spent $1k a year for 9 years with countless hours of research. It started on this forum but it shouldn’t end here. It’s just a starting point.
Most of what you need to know is available on here. I can help in areas I can but I will not jeopardize my situation.
So why post here? Good question. Most people do to get or give information. Others further reading and just hobby. My question would be, what stops someone else from doing what I have done? Time? Effort?
I’m not boasting nor would I. I’m merely giving information that has already been discussed and suggesting there are some inconsistencies with some of that information.
The “HOW” isn’t significant if it isn’t consistent. Thus this is the reason I posted. Some of the information delivered about this particular plant in inaccurate so far. In fact, a lot of information is missing. I just pieced it together over a long term study. This post is just an update.
I have offered information. I have given information as to what can be done.
One person that has way more knowledge than me about these plants, and someone I look up to, gained a lot from here and has been quite successful on his own.
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Nothing wrong with being selective on what and how much information you want to divulge at this time or any. Your findings came at a cost to you. Thank you Greg for sharing about your forest. Looks really healthy.
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All of our findings come at a cost to all of us, shared or not.
Out of curiosity, who else that posts here has refused to share? I don’t remember any, if I’m mistaken, then I stand corrected.
Off to the farmers market.
With all due respect,
Peter
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Nothing wrong with being selective on what and how much information you want to divulge at this time or any. Your findings came at a cost to you. Thank you Greg for sharing about your forest. Looks really healthy.
Thank you, I am curious as to how much they will fruit this year. I need roughly 20-30 pounds for testing. The research varies as to how much each tree produces and when.
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Thanks for posting on your Camu camu experiment/ trails will be interesting to see results!
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(https://i.postimg.cc/DJxfbwLB/688738-AF-A22-F-4-E7-B-80-F2-4-B14-BE4-D7-D43.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJxfbwLB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TLJLNxmD/A3-C4466-D-EC82-4080-93-C1-9-F5-D15-FB4095.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TLJLNxmD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bdvwf1fM/AD376-A79-F32-E-416-E-A53-A-0-D640818-C027.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bdvwf1fM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MfX60JYx/F2-A0-AFB7-2578-4137-8-B38-3231-F7-A297-CA.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MfX60JYx)
These guys will be propagated. I can’t get over the number of flowers ready to bloom and fruit ready to ripen!
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All of our findings come at a cost to all of us, shared or not.
Out of curiosity, who else that posts here has refused to share? I don’t remember any, if I’m mistaken, then I stand corrected.
Off to the farmers market.
With all due respect,
Peter
With all due respect I also have to participate: In my experience EVERYONE benefits from a free exchange of knowledge. Specially on a forum like this one. Open information is the principle by which the best science has been done universally and most of human progress has come about (think universities, scientific institutes and the Internet). Information is not a zero-sum game and knowledge grows exponentially as more information is available, benefiting everyone. You can't force people to share their "proprietary knowledge" but IMO those who act in such a way end up losing more in the long term as others will not share information with them. IMO the rationale for not sharing discoveries (for example specifically in this forum) is short-sighted and missing the "big-picture". I hope your "proprietary information strategy" on camu-camu makes you the billionaire king of camu-camu!
BTW I've had a handful of camu-camus for over 4 years. I haven't given them any special treatment, and I believe after 4 years of healthy growth they're finally decaying... too bad :( hahaha
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Thank You Federico for your response to this conversation. I still hope that everyone who posts here will be willing to share. If not, then why post? I can understand keeping something proprietary although it never seems to stay a secret with time. But just keep it to yourself then, don’t tease the interest of those who are here to share totally.
Peter
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I think you guys may be taking this too seriously. He said he doesn't know how much or when they'll produce, and that he spent "$1k a year for 9 years and countless hours of research". He also said they fruit in under 4 years, so you'd think he'd know when they produce, and how much. $1k a year sounds pretty darn low to me, but it would have sounded like a lot when I was a kid. Maybe this guy's legit and he really does have some super secret methods, but if he is a troll, I think you're feeding him.
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There are definitely a couple goobers here that are less than forthcoming with information after presenting a brand new “top tier” fruit to the forum that is the best thing noone has ever heard of and then refuse to answer any questions on where it came from or possible parentage or that they really renamed an already known fruit.
So for the sake of conversation, in the mind of a nursery-man/woman, which is the worst offense 1. Knowingly selling mislabeled fruit tree’s or
2. Knowingly renaming a well known cultivar and passing it off as your own hybrid?
Ie, “ No No , thats not Big Jim loquat thats a “Giant Honey Golden “ Loquat “ buy my delicious “ Giant Honey Golden”.
And good luck to “We” and your Camu Camu planting that anyone could do if only we had the time / effort.
If you come to stroke instead of come to share then maybe beating it is the best course of action.
quote author=Finca La Isla link=topic=30335.msg338448#msg338448 date=1542453667]
All of our findings come at a cost to all of us, shared or not.
Out of curiosity, who else that posts here has refused to share? I don’t remember any, if I’m mistaken, then I stand corrected.
Off to the farmers market.
With all due respect,
Peter
[/quote]
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First of all let me start by clearing the air:
I’m not a troll. I’m not out to make billions. Some monetary gain would be nice but I’m very realistic in what I think I can achieve.
It pisses me off that there are people (a company) charging $33 a freaking seedling to consumers knowing damn well that the people that buy them won’t keep it alive for more than a couple of years at most. This company has Amazon and EBay consumers trapped in a sales tactic that for the most part is a scam.
Search Camu Camu plants on those store fronts and check.
So how do I know that one of the people getting information from this forum isn’t using it for seedling production and ripping people off?
By all means check my profile. Does it appear to be one that would troll?
I never said I won’t share information. I’ve already shared some.
I said I won’t share some of the proprietary information. That is information that will assist others from doing what companies have already done-market this product in the completely wrong way and sell overpriced goods.
I posted to show what is possible. That’s it. I can refrain and not post, that’s fine by me. I don’t mean to offend anyone nor would I with any intention at all.
I haven’t renamed anything, changed a name or developed anything other than a method to grow Camu Camu successfully on a massive scale in Louisiana. That’s it.
We have found a couple of unique things in several plants but that’s for another post and I’m guessing at this point that that in itself will piss people off.
If this is a problem I will delete and move on. That’s fine. I apologize for any inconvenience.
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For those that doubt my efforts. I searched several years for seeds. When I finally found some I was determined on growing this plant. I spent 6 years just getting the seedlings to start and thrive-all while collecting data on a daily basis. While $1k a year is not a lot the time spent is worth far more. My project started as a backyard attempt.
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Thanks for sharing Greg. Keep up the good work and please don't let a few people keep you from posting here.
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Greg, we get you, keep up the good work in keep posting.
There are those who feel entitled to everything, and for free too. Please learn how to ignore them. You do not owe them or us an explanation.
What you are doing is one of the reasons I am on the forum. Sharing what you know can be done, there is value in knowing someone is successfully growing this in Louisiana.
Keep working on your study, post what you are comfortable posting when your are, we will all be here when you make your big reveal and we will love it free or at a cost. This is one of the ways progress is made, people are incentivized to work, do something new or better, get paid for it and move the ball forward. If you stop your posting, they win, we lose. So please keep posting.
In closing, some of us get you and want you to continue.
My take.
Have a happy Thanksgiving!!!
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Eloquently said, Orkine!
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Greg, we get you, keep up the good work in keep posting.
There are those who feel entitled to everything, and for free too. Please learn how to ignore them. You do not owe them or us an explanation.
What you are doing is one of the reasons I am on the forum. Sharing what you know can be done, there is value in knowing someone is successfully growing this in Louisiana.
Keep working on your study, post what you are comfortable posting when your are, we will all be here when you make your big reveal and we will love it free or at a cost. This is one of the ways progress is made, people are incentivized to work, do something new or better, get paid for it and move the ball forward. If you stop your posting, they win, we lose. So please keep posting.
In closing, some of us get you and want you to continue.
My take.
Have a happy Thanksgiving!!!
Agree, after checking some of the complainers out more thoroughly I’ve come to the realization that they probably want the information for profitability. Not only are they doing that but they are passing off the information as their own. I’ll just post updates on progress and any other basic information. If they don’t like it they can simply go to another discussion.
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Lmao it's a conspiracy you figured it out. Finca La Isla is a Chinese agricultural technology spy agency.
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Lmao it's a conspiracy you figured it out. Finca La Isla is a Chinese agricultural technology spy agency.
LMAO!!!!!
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:D Legit though, I didn't mean to make you think you aren't welcome. I just think the way you've said some things seems intentionally provocative. I mean what kind of response do you really expect when you post, "Hey look at these amazing plants I grew using secret methods which I won't reveal, but which are going to change the world of tropical fruit growing" on a tropical fruit forum? I think it's natural that some people will take offense.
FWIW, Finca La Isla has a big permaculture project in Costa Rica and has been doing this for thirty years. He seems like a really nice guy. Here's a tour of his place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzk1hoctyxE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzk1hoctyxE)
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:D Legit though, I didn't mean to make you think you aren't welcome. I just think the way you've said some things seems intentionally provocative. I mean what kind of response do you really expect when you post, "Hey look at these amazing plants I grew using secret methods which I won't reveal, but which are going to change the world of tropical fruit growing" on a tropical fruit forum? I think it's natural that some people will take offense.
FWIW, Finca La Isla has a big permaculture project in Costa Rica and has been doing this for thirty years. He seems like a really nice guy. Here's a tour of his place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzk1hoctyxE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzk1hoctyxE)
I get what you’re saying.
I saw Camu Camu plants on amazon and eBay. So I thought a bunch of people were growing it. Obviously that’s not the case.
Only couple of things I won’t disclose, one is the medium. Which once he was told no got bent over and well it’s all on the thread.
I saw his website, hence my last post. He gets paid for selling trees, fruit, consultations etc. yet is somehow entitled to free information to profit off of.
It’s cool though, I’ll just post updates and answer questions if I can.
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A couple of observations we noted this week:
The age of the camu camu alone does not determine when the fruiting will begin as some research suggests.
The diameter of the trunk must be at least 2cm or so and the plant at least 3 years old, once it hits this mark it should fruit. It is true to date when these conditions are present. We are still looking into seasonal production as opposed to age.
There are a couple of exceptions to these rules but for the most part this is what we have observed.
Once fruiting starts there is a lot of staggered blooms through various stages. This is good due to the fruit providing various levels of nutrients at various times in days after anthesis.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B8XDMx9D/camu-flowers-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8XDMx9D)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rd34bKMH/camu-flowers-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rd34bKMH)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/kDLmmnky/546-EC51-C-DD4-C-4065-8707-4-DA5-B946365-C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDLmmnky)
Still producing berries in late December. In the greenhouse with no extra heat.
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Our first year of fruit. We still can not determine the fruiting cycle yet. Hundreds of pounds of fruit just after a mild Louisiana winter this year. Some frost damage but not much, especially compared to last year when we hit below 20F.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ns3hJNtJ/IMG-2319.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ns3hJNtJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K4Mxq14F/IMG-2321.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K4Mxq14F)
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Great stuff! Here is a snippet from Morton's book
"This species occurs abundantly wild in swamps along rivers and lakes, especially the Rio Mazán near Iquitos, Peru, and in Amazonian Brazil and Venezuela, often with the base of the trunk under water, and, during the rainy season, the lower branches are also submerged for long periods."
"Seeds were brought to Florida by William F. Whitman in 1964, and plants were raised, he says, in an "acid hammock sand soil" and regularly watered. One plant bore rather heavily in 1972, mainly in late summer with a few scattered fruits the following winter. One plant was 12 ft (3.65 m) tall and equally broad in 1974. In Brazil, the fruit is borne mainly from November to March."
Combined with your passion. I think you are in a great part of the USA to grow them. Tons of acidic rain or straight up swamp water to use for irrigation and outrageously high humidity. I would try planting a few dozen seeds in the Bayou and see if they make it through the winter!
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Great stuff! Here is a snippet from Morton's book
"This species occurs abundantly wild in swamps along rivers and lakes, especially the Rio Mazán near Iquitos, Peru, and in Amazonian Brazil and Venezuela, often with the base of the trunk under water, and, during the rainy season, the lower branches are also submerged for long periods."
"Seeds were brought to Florida by William F. Whitman in 1964, and plants were raised, he says, in an "acid hammock sand soil" and regularly watered. One plant bore rather heavily in 1972, mainly in late summer with a few scattered fruits the following winter. One plant was 12 ft (3.65 m) tall and equally broad in 1974. In Brazil, the fruit is borne mainly from November to March."
Combined with your passion. I think you are in a great part of the USA to grow them. Tons of acidic rain or straight up swamp water to use for irrigation and outrageously high humidity. I would try planting a few dozen seeds in the Bayou and see if they make it through the winter!
So the fruit over the winter might have just been the maturity crop and possibly the first scatter and hopefully we get a bumper over the summer...interesting for sure. We are still working on thresholds in various settings.