Planting in Heavy Clay Soil

[PltdWorld]

Wow, your slope is just as steep as the one that drops off my backyard, but it looks like your ground is a lot more stable.  The gray clay on my slope turns into sand when it dries out and the ground squirrels have undermined it quite a bit.  I'm slowly (tight budget) trying to use some treated lumber to form terraces and then plant those terraces with Vetiver grass.
Do you get a lot of wind on that slope or is it somewhat protected?
The other big question is what kind of critters come around?  I do constant battle with the ground squirrels and the golf course near my house seems to be encouraging them or trying to ignore them.

Yes, very steep slope.  We have terraced a lot of it in cement block (I lost count, but somewhere near 3k of them now).  It was all iceplant previously.  We haven't had any problems with erosion since.  I built a winding path down the hill from the top using cement blocks both above and below the level path and then "paved" the path in 3/8" gravel.  It's been a long time in the making, but it's all starting to come together.

As for critters, I've seen the following, some more occasionally than others:

* Raccoons
* Skunks
* Ground Squirells
* Rats
* Mice
* Various birds (Crows, Bluejays, birds of prey, etc)
* Rabbits
* Snakes (Rattlesnake, gopher snake)

[JeffDM]

Wow, your slope is just as steep as the one that drops off my backyard, but it looks like your ground is a lot more stable.  The gray clay on my slope turns into sand when it dries out and the ground squirrels have undermined it quite a bit.  I'm slowly (tight budget) trying to use some treated lumber to form terraces and then plant those terraces with Vetiver grass.
Do you get a lot of wind on that slope or is it somewhat protected?
The other big question is what kind of critters come around?  I do constant battle with the ground squirrels and the golf course near my house seems to be encouraging them or trying to ignore them.

Yes, very steep slope.  We have terraced a lot of it in cement block (I lost count, but somewhere near 3k of them now).  It was all iceplant previously.  We haven't had any problems with erosion since.  I built a winding path down the hill from the top using cement blocks both above and below the level path and then "paved" the path in 3/8" gravel.  It's been a long time in the making, but it's all starting to come together.

As for critters, I've seen the following, some more occasionally than others:

* Raccoons
* Skunks
* Ground Squirells
* Rats
* Mice
* Various birds (Crows, Bluejays, birds of prey, etc)
* Rabbits
* Snakes (Rattlesnake, gopher snake)

Looks like the gopher snake is the only keeper in that bunch.

[PltdWorld]

Hah, don't want to hijack your clay soil thread with the benefits of garden "pests", but our rat population has managed to spread tomatoes all around my yard - I have them growing everywhere.  It's awesome.  Now that they have done their job, they can all die.

[JeffDM]

Hah, don't want to hijack your clay soil thread with the benefits of garden "pests", but our rat population has managed to spread tomatoes all around my yard - I have them growing everywhere.  It's awesome.  Now that they have done their job, they can all die.

That's where the Rat Zapper comes in.
Since the beginning of the year mine has successfully zapped 29 squirrels and one rat.
The rat population dropped quite a bit when my neighbor with all the birds moved - he was dumping the seed cups down his back slope each morning before filling them up with fresh seeds.  He was attracting hordes of ground squirrels, field mice and rats.
Unfortunately, the ground squirrels are everywhere and I think I'm the only one in the neighborhood who takes the work of eradicating them seriously.

[cgps]

that I know, almost all the tropical fruit are resisting the clay soil,specially the yellow-red and oxisol soil, but about the image that I looked,this soil seem have rocks, many rocks.

the animal is some that normally is controlable, the slopes there have caution, the loose clay  in storm time is a danger

[DurianLover]

Mark in Texas was right. Do not amend your soil! Watch video nr 3 on solution to this problem in this topic:
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7941.0

[Mark in Texas]

Mark in Texas was right. Do not amend your soil! Watch video nr 3 on solution to this problem in this topic:
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7941.0

"...zone of discontinuity"

Excellent link.  Thought this was gonna be another long drawn out video but I can tell this guy really knows his stuff.  He parrots and explains extremely well the soil structure/chemistry concepts I presented  beginning at 3:40 into the video.  He learned the hard way after losing hundreds of trees.  He was literally drowning them because he amended the clay with organics.   

Thanks for sharing!

Mark

[zands]

Mark in Texas was right. Do not amend your soil! Watch video nr 3 on solution to this problem in this topic:
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7941.0

"...zone of discontinuity"

Excellent link.  Thought this was gonna be another long drawn out video but I can tell this guy really knows his stuff.  He parrots and explains extremely well the soil structure/chemistry concepts I presented  beginning at 3:40 into the video.  He learned the hard way after losing hundreds of trees.  He was literally drowning them because he amended the clay with organics.   

Thanks for sharing!

Mark

Towards the end of video #3 he talks about pouring 2 qt drug store H2O2 into the planting hole for heavy clay soil.
his procedure is to dig a smaller hole>>>
pour in the H2O2>>>>
put in the plant/tree>>>

Then back fill with 100% native dirt/clay you just dug out. The H2O2 makes this zone of discontinuity I suppose

[Mark in Texas]

"...zone of discontinuity"

Mark

Towards the end of video #3 he talks about pouring 2 qt drug store H2O2 into the planting hole for heavy clay soil.
his procedure is to dig a smaller hole>>>
pour in the H2O2>>>>
put in the plant/tree>>>

Then back fill with 100% native dirt/clay you just dug out. The H2O2 makes this zone of discontinuity I suppose

Zands, a "zone of discontinuity" is created by the gardener upon amending their backfill that goes back into the clay hole.  Water can not transition into the native clay from the "pot" you just dug.  You have the concept backwards amigo.   You have continuity regarding soil structure, water holding capacity, drainage, etc. when you backfill the hole with the native soil you took out - no amendments. 

I don't understand the H2O2 addition, doesn't make sense regarding his claims that it opens up the clay.  I'm anal, I want the science behind it.  When you use gypsum as an amendment or sulfur in a calcareous clay you're actually changing the ion charges on the clay particles making some opposing opposites so they attract to each other, form larger particles which allows air and water exchange.  Seems to me all the peroxide is gonna do is release the extra O atom while watering the hole.  That's a pretty expensive way to water your newly planted stock!   

One of the most interesting things I came away with was the explanation of humus versus organics and how microbes feed on one and not the other.  Never really gave it any thought.   Guy is amazing!     

[zands]

Mark in Texas___

Thanks. So with H2O2 he establishing a zone of continuity. Gotcha!!   This guy is very good. I never paid attention to buying Mycorrhizal fungi but now I just might. Now I know why my neighbor has such black soil with all the perennial peanut he planted everywhere and I do mean an entire rear lawn. It even blackened up my soil a bit where I planted them. This peanut must foster the growth of Mycorrhizal fungi

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mycorrhizae-Root-Fungi-Endo-Granular-Mycorrhizal-134-Spores-Bacteria-Mycos-Myko-/130740314990?pt=Fertilizer_Soil_Amendments&var=&hash=item1e70bae36e

[bangkok]

H202 is an acid and he adds that to the alcalic soil. So the edge/bottom of the hole will be neutral in ph and gets softer (and ph7) so the water can drain in to the clay or does he do that so the roots can easyier into the clay with the soft edge?

The clay right behind the soft edge will still be hard as ever so i don't understand that part. With the soft edge the hole is in fact a little bit bigger so the roots will still circle around when they are through the soft edge? Why roots can penetrate the hard clay behind the soft edge easyier?

What am i missing here in my thoughts?

[Mark in Texas]

Mark in Texas___

Thanks. So with H2O2 he establishing a zone of continuity. Gotcha!!   This guy is very good. I never paid attention to buying Mycorrhizal fungi but now I just might. Now I know why my neighbor has such black soil with all the perennial peanut he planted everywhere and I do mean an entire rear lawn. It even blackened up my soil a bit where I planted them. This peanut must foster the growth of Mycorrhizal fungi

You may know I'm not an organic purist because there's too much placebo effect, cult driven half truths, and price increases associated with the "organic and natural" racket.  But if one uses their head and gets into the science behind certain organic principles, it's a fine way to add "depth" to your gardening experience and production.  I use both chemicals and organics but realize that too much sugar (synthetic fertilizers) can rot your teeth out.

Regarding mycos, I drench all my field perennials in a 5 gal.  bucket of Myco-Apply Soluble Maxx.  This firm sells to many other resellers who merely bottle/bag the product and slap their own label on it. http://www.mycoapplycertified.com/

Find out what your particular plant material likes and go with the product that "claims" to provide it - endo, ecto, or VAM (for grapevines).  Here's the rub - there's a lot of claims out there and I don't know about you but I don't have any way to verify these claims nor is there a non partisan, non profit, regulatory agency available that after testing says, "yep, contains a millon so and so's per gram like the label says".

Whatever.....could be a feeling not a fact or could be one of those things where "well, it can't hurt".  My organic approach includes the planting of legumes and humus producing plants like elbon rye and myco fungi/tric bacteria. 

Thanks to a new rescue dog that loves to tunnel into my horse manure pile and triple the size of the pile as she throws it to kingdom come....I've got work to do today.

Best,
Mark

[Mark in Texas]

H202 is an acid and he adds that to the alcalic soil. So the edge/bottom of the hole will be neutral in ph and gets softer (and ph7) so the water can drain in to the clay or does he do that so the roots can easyier into the clay with the soft edge?

The clay right behind the soft edge will still be hard as ever so i don't understand that part. With the soft edge the hole is in fact a little bit bigger so the roots will still circle around when they are through the soft edge? Why roots can penetrate the hard clay behind the soft edge easyier?

What am i missing here in my thoughts?

I might call up my bud today and ask him about the peroxide ditty.  I'm stumped on that one.   http://soilcrop.tamu.edu/staff/mcfarland-mark-l/

I attended a vineyard manager's workshop in which Dr. McFarland did a presentation of the value of non-conventional additives including a very popular one in Texas by Medina, Medina soil activator, Hasta Gro, etc.  TX A&M did field tests on about 5 different crops using certain additives at many locations across the U.S. and found no positive correlation between the amended soils and the control.

".....I also have conducted worked to determine effective methods for beneficial use of composts, animal manures and municipal biosolids. In addition, I have considerable experience working with disturbed and contaminated soils, including salts, heavy metals and hydrocarbons."

[bangkok]

Well his clay-soil really looks much better after his treatment. This guy can be billionair or the next jesus if he can do that to every clay soil.

My MIL has much land, hard clay and only suitable for growing rice. If that can be fertile land i will start orchards there haha.

I also still don't really know how he did his thing. First he had gluten from groundup beans and threw it on the land. Next year a little compost. Then every next year some compost and then he grew bamboo?

I had no time to watch all video's after another, i will do it soon and write all down so i can try it myself.

[Mark in Texas]

What he had was a lot of time on his hands, years, to do what he did with his sodic adobe clay.  You're not going to change such a problem soil over night.  I planted legumes and cover crops 3 years in a row.  It was a THICK cover every year, but I can't really tell much difference in the soil structure.  I do have millions of earthworms which is a good sign.

Mark

[zands]

What he had was a lot of time on his hands, years, to do what he did with his sodic adobe clay.  You're not going to change such a problem soil over night.  I planted legumes and cover crops 3 years in a row.  It was a THICK cover every year, but I can't really tell much difference in the soil structure.  I do have millions of earthworms which is a good sign.

Mark

The man planted bamboo (drops lots of leaves) and some trees. For all we know he might have been away at Bennington college teaching English for 15 years. He came back to see what happened to his "experiment" with mychrohizal  fungi and humus and it turned out great

Summary--  Same as you I think time is the largest factor here. He could also paid a man $500 to dump lots of black topsoil there and would have had just as good results over 15 years

[shaneatwell]

Yeah. 23-years and you'd think any of a half-dozen strategies would work to improve the soil. Its comical to hear him criticize commercial farming from that context. If every farmer abandoned synthesized fertilizers and adopted his methods, we'd go back to 90% of the population having to farm.

I did some reading on humic acid/humates. Fascinating stuff. Huge, high-aromatic molecules that I'm guessing give the black color to good soil. Seem to have a lot a functions, like changing soil structure, carrying micronutrients, obsorbing and releasing energy... Comes from soil bacteria. Worm composting is a good source. I'm guessing the guy in the video is just feeding his soil bacteria with ground beans. I don't think its possible to convert beans to humates any more direct or chemical way.

Couple interesting articles with references to field tests:
http://www.prairieswine.com/pdf/3263.pdf
http://www.researchtrend.net/jnbr/VOL%201%281%29%202012/8%20DR%20KHURSHEED.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3730804/

[Mark in Texas]

Yeah. 23-years and you'd think any of a half-dozen strategies would work to improve the soil. Its comical to hear him criticize commercial farming from that context. If every farmer abandoned synthesized fertilizers and adopted his methods, we'd go back to 90% of the population having to farm.

I did some reading on humic acid/humates. Fascinating stuff. Huge, high-aromatic molecules that I'm guessing give the black color to good soil. Seem to have a lot a functions, like changing soil structure, carrying micronutrients, obsorbing and releasing energy... Comes from soil bacteria. Worm composting is a good source. I'm guessing the guy in the video is just feeding his soil bacteria with ground beans. I don't think its possible to convert beans to humates any more direct or chemical way.

I agree.  The bean drill gave me a bit of gas. 

If you're on the humic/fulvic acid band wagon (which I have thoroughly explored) the best sources in order are:

Leonardite
Peat
Compost

It's just money......

[zands]

Yeah. 23-years and you'd think any of a half-dozen strategies would work to improve the soil. Its comical to hear him criticize commercial farming from that context. If every farmer abandoned synthesized fertilizers and adopted his methods, we'd go back to 90% of the population having to farm.

I did some reading on humic acid/humates. Fascinating stuff. Huge, high-aromatic molecules that I'm guessing give the black color to good soil. Seem to have a lot a functions, like changing soil structure, carrying micronutrients, obsorbing and releasing energy... Comes from soil bacteria. Worm composting is a good source. I'm guessing the guy in the video is just feeding his soil bacteria with ground beans. I don't think its possible to convert beans to humates any more direct or chemical way.

I agree.  The bean drill gave me a bit of gas. 

If you're on the humic/fulvic acid band wagon (which I have thoroughly explored) the best sources in order are:

Leonardite
Peat
Compost

It's just money......

Amer-Indians got no respect for slash and burn agriculture. But looked at today I see carbon farmers. They did not have internal combustion powered (evil evil oil barons repeat after me) so they burnt down the house (forest) and fertilized the soil with black carbon charcoal. Humus is black too so Amer-Indians did a simple common sense translation that black charcoal looks good same as black earth or blacker earth. If I was in a rural area I would be burning scrub into charcoal and fertilizing with this. I do this on a smaller scale with my grill outside. I usually burn cutting in it. Muscadine grape cutting went up nice!!!

[Saltcayman]

Amer-Indians got no respect for slash and burn agriculture. But looked at today I see carbon farmers. They did not have internal combustion powered (evil evil oil barons repeat after me) so they burnt down the house (forest) and fertilized the soil with black carbon charcoal. Humus is black too so Amer-Indians did a simple common sense translation that black charcoal looks good same as black earth or blacker earth. If I was in a rural area I would be burning scrub into charcoal and fertilizing with this. I do this on a smaller scale with my grill outside. I usually burn cutting in it. Muscadine grape cutting went up nice!!

Good point  there is a pile of old ash from burned wood overthe years that I have mixed into soil in places with good results. Added peat moss and mulched heavilly with high nitrogen litter.