Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: Florian on April 15, 2017, 07:43:56 PM

Title: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Florian on April 15, 2017, 07:43:56 PM
I'd like to share a picture of my Citsuma Prague which is the most bizarre citrus I have.
It has grown pretty well but it seems it wants to grow in all directions but upwards. If I let it grow it would be much wider than tall.
I know Ilya has one, too. I'd love to see some pictures.

(https://s14.postimg.org/a5fdqbkh9/IMG_3696.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/a5fdqbkh9/)
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Citradia on April 15, 2017, 10:12:11 PM
That's neat. I wish I had a citsuma Prague. Would be nice to have a tree from , as grandma says, " the old country". The growth habit looks a lot like my citrange seedlings.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 16, 2017, 02:32:37 PM
You have very nice specimen. I have this Citsuma in the ground since 2004, but it is grafted on very weak rootstock and has not grown much. Never damaged, but flowering is very sporadic and fruits rapidly abort.
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i629/1704/8b/c69ad9d711f2.jpg) (http://radikal.ru)

Last year I regrafted it on high stem of very strong poncirus, hope it will finally give some fruits.
Sylvain in Dordogne have very nice plant, almost 2 meters high , producing sweet fruits of very good quality.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on April 16, 2017, 03:10:45 PM
Ilya,11 the Satsuma Prague is a cross between the Citsuma unshiu X Poncirus trifoliata correct?
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 16, 2017, 04:10:30 PM
Millet,
Its origin is not yet clear. Leaves are  a mixture of bi- tri- or monofoliates.
The fruits are almost satsuma like, no poncirus smell or taste.
There is    suspicion that it is a chimera between poncirus and satsuma, but strangely enough even stems and leaves do not have odor or taste of poncirus.
Scientists in Brno show that the nuclei from its cells have homogeneous DNA content, that does not definitely  proves an absence of chimerism , but points more to the hybrid origin of this citrus.
On the other hand, Roberto from Wien observed an emergence of  poncirus like branch   distantly  from   grafting point.
It could be some second generation poncirus-satsuma hybrid with unstable genome, but no definite proof for this exists for the moment.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on April 16, 2017, 08:48:05 PM
Interesting, to bad there is no supplier of the tree in the USA.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Florian on April 17, 2017, 06:25:21 AM
Thank you so much for the information, Ilya. My plant is a strong grower but I would still like to graft it onto a taller poncirus because I like tree forms better. I will let it grow until it flowers and try to graft it then. I need more time anyway because my poncirus rootstocks are still very small since I have to grown them from seed.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Radoslav on April 17, 2017, 09:12:07 AM
Interesting, to bad there is no supplier of the tree in the USA.

I have a strong feeling, that mrtexas showed at old forum (few years ago) plant, which most likely is Citsuma Prague and he propagated it as great satsuma like mandarin with great hardiness.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 17, 2017, 01:06:32 PM
It could be this variety in UCR collection:
http://www.citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/citrondarin.html (http://www.citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/citrondarin.html)

(http://www.citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/images/CitrondarintrifoliatexsatsumahybridCRC3881006.jpg)
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on April 17, 2017, 03:54:22 PM
ILYA11 Thanks for the link
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Citradia on April 17, 2017, 06:33:32 PM
I looked up chimera and looks like it is two different species fused together. Do we call this citrandarin chimera instead of hybrid because it has a good mandarin quality fruit on a trifoliata tree, whearas most trifoliate hybrids have a tree body and fruit that is a mix or blending of the two parent trees?
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Florian on April 18, 2017, 02:33:07 AM
Well, Ilya said that the homogenous dna makes it rather unlikely to be a chimera but I am no expert.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 18, 2017, 04:21:25 AM
It is believed for a long time to be a chimera, but its origin is very obscure.
It is either originated in Abkhazia region of the USSR or  in  Prague, Czechoslovakia.
In USSR several attempts were made to produce poncirus/citrus chimera by the induction  and subsequent regeneration of massive callus at the grafting point.
By this, they believed to produce  plants containing cells from two species (chimeras). Most of such plants are unstable, giving branches of pure species, but occasionally a stable, so called periclinal chimera can be produced.
In the recent study   Czech scientists  isolated the cell nuclei from this plant, stained their genetic material (DNA) by fluorescent die and determined the intensity of fluorescence signal from individual nuclei. Since the genome of different citruses is slightly different in size, they hopped to see two peaks of fluorescent intensity if it is satsuma/poncirus chimera.
They observed only one, so it is either not a chimera  but a hybrid or   chimera  between poncirus  with some hybrid having approximately the  same  genome size as poncirus.
I guess only molecular markers can definitely  resolve the origin of this very strange plant.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Radoslav on April 18, 2017, 04:48:44 AM
According to Snek, there are three hybrids/chimeras known in former Czechoslovakia.
One is hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus selected by professor Pospisil in seventies, the plant is still in greenhouse of university in Prague.
(https://s10.postimg.org/ur8uq26l1/Ushiu_Prague.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ur8uq26l1/)
(from the book „Pěstování citrusů“, c. SZN 1987, Ing. Stanislav Hušák, CSc., Doc.Ing. Vladimír Táborský, CSc., Prof. Ing. Pavel Valíček, DrSc.)
Second one is Chimere no.19 (unshiu  poncirus) from USSR.
(https://s11.postimg.org/v6v3sl3f3/Chimera_No19_Unshiu_PT.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/v6v3sl3f3/))
(from the book „Pěstování citrusů“, c. SZN 1987, Ing. Stanislav Hušák, CSc., Doc.Ing. Vladimír Táborský, CSc., Prof. Ing. Pavel Valíček, DrSc.
And third one: hybrid P.t. X Unshiu from USSR too.



Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 18, 2017, 07:48:01 AM
According to Snek, there are three hybrids/chimeras known in former Czechoslovakia.
One is hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus selected by professor Pospisil in seventies, the plant is still in greenhouse of university in Prague.
Radoslav,
Have you seen the recent photos of this surviving plant?
For me the old black and white picture of it looks very similiar to what I have in the garden.
On other hand, the picture from Riverside is also similiar, although their plant is described as chimera from Abkhazia.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on April 20, 2017, 07:32:13 AM
Quote
It has grown pretty well but it seems it wants to grow in all directions but upwards.
After few years the shoots go strait to the sky.

Quote
Sylvain in Dordogne have very nice plant, almost 2 meters high , producing sweet fruits of very good quality.
The tallest is now 2.50m. The second one is about 2m high and last year I made a third that is a little less than 2m. The last one is an over-graft on a '5 stars' grafted on PT. It is very vigorous.

Quote
Leaves are  a mixture of bi- tri- or monofoliates.
Like shown on the Ilya11's picture bifoliate and trifoliates are very rare. Most are deformed monofoliates.

Quote
The fruits are almost satsuma like
Not 'almost', they are pure satsuma fruits.

Quote
There is suspicion that it is a chimera between poncirus and satsuma
For me there is no doubt, it is a chimera.
This spring one very big flower appeared just at the same time than the poncirus flowers. Looking exactly the same. The Prague chimeras bloom nearly one month later with small flowers. The fruitlet issued from this flower is already big and have a velvet skin.
Now we know that the poncirus that made the chimera is of the large flowers kind.
Last year I had one seed from the fruits (the first one). It gave three seedlings that are pure mandarins.

Quote
It could be this variety in UCR collection
I don't think so. The fruits are very different. This one looks more like an orange than like a mandarin.



Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 20, 2017, 09:10:31 AM
Sylvain,
Have you been able to germinate its seeds?
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on April 21, 2017, 04:50:43 AM
Yes, I have three seedlings growing.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Florian on April 21, 2017, 05:09:35 AM
Sylvain, would you have a picture of your plant and fruit?
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 21, 2017, 08:16:28 AM
Yes, I have three seedlings growing.
Is it possible to see them, please?
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on April 21, 2017, 06:24:15 PM
I came back home late and the light isn't good. :(

The tree:
(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Prague2/prague.png)

Growing strait toward the sky:
(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Prague2/croissance2.png)

(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Prague2/croissance.png)

Velvet fruit:
(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Prague2/pt.png)

Regular fruit:
(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Prague2/fruit.png)

The first years the flowers were very small and irregular, with the time the flowers stabilize with three petals:
(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Prague2/fleurs.png)

The seedlings:
(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Prague2/semis1.png)

(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Prague2/semis2.png)

Does someone dare to say it is not a chimera?
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on April 21, 2017, 08:22:16 PM
Silvain it is sure easy to see the Poncirus parentage in your tree.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 22, 2017, 03:38:36 AM
Thank you Sylvain,
Your tree is huge and magnificent.
From what you presented it is clear it is a chimera between poncirus and pure satsuma.
Where you did got the budwood from?
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on April 22, 2017, 07:01:34 AM
It was from Petr Broza. At this time (2008/2009) we were only three (with B. Voss who found it) to have it.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Radoslav on April 22, 2017, 11:10:36 AM
Ąll what i know about this case, is that  snek thinks, that Voss during his visit in greenhouse in university of Prague dig out and took with him plant that was not the plant snek calls hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus, selected by professor Pospisil, but Chimere no.19 (unshiu  poncirus) from USSR. Voss gave it name citsuma Prague, but it is not the citsuma Prague which for example Snek and some others have in their collections. Chimere no.19 , grows upright, while  so called hybrid grows more like flying dragon, or willow.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 22, 2017, 11:46:44 AM
Radoslav,
I got my plant from B.Voss in 2004 and it looks exactly like a plant that has  Snek ( willow like with slim contorted  twigs).   
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Radoslav on April 22, 2017, 01:36:22 PM
i have never been interested in so called hardy citruses, but in this case I am forced  ;D to start a little investigation  8). Last week I personally met with one of the founders of czechoslovakian citrus growing. He grows citruses for more than 65 years. He traveled across USSR many times serching for citruses and other agricultural plants. He personally grafted some budwood on The Friendship Tree in Sochi, he speaks fluently russian, ukrainian, chechen, georgian etc. He cooperated with all soviet citrus experimental stations. Yesterday I sent him an e-mail and asked him about this case, because he cooperated with professor Pospisil in seventies. Once he will answer my question, I let you know more.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on April 22, 2017, 03:40:55 PM
For members that do not know what the Citrus Friendship Tree is that Radoslav wrote about in the above post see link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_Tree
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on April 22, 2017, 07:23:03 PM
Radoslav, the one we have is not the Chimere no.19. On our plants the leaves are smaller than the fruits and the fruits are spherical not depressed at the apex.
And yes, it looks like flying dragon. For years mine behaved like this. It is only since two years that it started to grow upright.
Voss, Brosa, Snek, Ilya and I have the same plant. On the pictures there is no doubt.

Could you take a picture of the one witch still remains in the greenhouse in university of Prague? This way I could tell you if it's the same plant than the one we have.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Radoslav on April 24, 2017, 04:35:46 AM
I asked for picture, once I receive it, I will post it.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Florian on April 26, 2017, 04:15:06 AM
This topic is turning out to be so great, thank you all for your contributions.
Sylvain, your plant has a nice, tall trunk. Did it form that all by itself or did you prune it that way? I am asking because you say it will grow upwards over time anyway but at the moment I doubt a bit that mine would form such a nice trunk..
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Radoslav on April 26, 2017, 01:44:38 PM
Just one note to the topic. Professor Pavel Valíček, co author of the book Pěstování citrusů (Growing of citruses) issued in 1987 from which are the pictures, confirmed to me, that hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus was selected by professor Pospisil in seventies, the plant is still in greenhouse of university in Prague.
But I remember that Ilya posted at old forum article, that unshiu mandarins do not hybridize and cross pollination with poncirus is only used to obtain seeds to get nucellar seedlings, or mutants. So it is possible that plant mentioned above is chimera, or mutant.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 26, 2017, 03:34:31 PM
But I remember that Ilya posted at old forum article, that unshiu mandarins do not hybridize and cross pollination with poncirus is only used to obtain seeds to get nucellar seedlings, or mutants. So it is possible that plant mentioned above is chimera, or mutant.
It is not a case, pollination with foreign pollen is used to enhance seed  formation in satsuma.
Poncirus is used because  its hybrids with satsuma having three leaflets are easily distinguished from   nucellar seedlings that are screened for for new traits emerging through natural somatic mutagenesis.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on April 27, 2017, 11:54:20 AM
The odds of a mutant must be every slim, taking many many many  seed germinations.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on April 27, 2017, 01:25:52 PM
Of course, you need a large population of nucellar seedlings to produce better varieties.
But somatic mutations are not particularly rare.  Out of 200 nucellar seedlings  of Miyagawa-wase two new varieties: 'Okitsu-Wase' and 'Miho-Wase were selected in Japan.
http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/79-83%20(NISHIURA).pdf (http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/79-83%20(NISHIURA).pdf)
also (https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiRvd3Cj8XTAhWBcBoKHVX1CG0QFggyMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jircas.go.jp%2Fja%2Ffile%2F7021%2Fdownload%3Ftoken%3Dlp9TJOTV&usg=AFQjCNH24UhPapPBEfwwHa6s_7bi6tqMdA&cad=rja)
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on April 27, 2017, 03:41:09 PM
Plus not all mutations are superior varieties, some mutations are inferior varieties. Even then it could take 5- 10 years before fruit developed to determine if the new mutant is worth while. However it is always an adventure. Good luck.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on April 27, 2017, 06:54:13 PM
> Sylvain, your plant has a nice, tall trunk. Did it form that all by itself or did you prune it that way?
It is the rootstock (poncirus).
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Radoslav on April 28, 2017, 07:50:15 AM
Of course, you need a large population of nucellar seedlings to produce better varieties.
But somatic mutations are not particularly rare.  Out of 200 nucellar seedlings  of Miyagawa-wase two new varieties: 'Okitsu-Wase' and 'Miho-Wase were selected in Japan.
[url]http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/79-83%20(NISHIURA).pdf[/url] ([url]http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/79-83%20(NISHIURA).pdf)[/url]
also ([url]https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiRvd3Cj8XTAhWBcBoKHVX1CG0QFggyMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jircas.go.jp%2Fja%2Ffile%2F7021%2Fdownload%3Ftoken%3Dlp9TJOTV&usg=AFQjCNH24UhPapPBEfwwHa6s_7bi6tqMdA&cad=rja[/url])


Interestig article. There s a nice story related to satsuma cultivars released in sixties mentioned in that article. Professor Pospisil from Czechoslovakia met with japan delegation at symposium at that time and they offered to him and his university in Prague some budwood.
It arrived in 1971 or so trough Japan embassy. It was then encrypted under names J1, J2 ....J6, means Japan 1 etc. and put on tests. For better chance to survive, budwood was also secretly given to 2 experienced growers to test it in thier private colections. I personally saw last week these trees in private collection still alive and kicking. Then it was oficially announced to USSR. Russians asked for budwood, but official statement from CSSR was that budwood did not survived.
After some time the names were released.
J1 - Okitsu
J2 - Matsuyama
J3 - Miyagawa
J4 - Miho
J5 - citrus sulcata
J6 - citrus sunki
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on April 29, 2017, 04:32:55 PM
Ilya11 thank you for the Okitsu, Japan Horticultural Research Station article.  Interesting reading.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: jim VH on May 01, 2017, 11:33:28 AM
Millet,

Stan McKenzie sometimes has grafted Prague Citsumas available.  The one I got grafted -he thinks- on Poncirus rootstock had one small fruit last winter.  It was very good, sweet with a mandarin flavor and no poncirus aftertaste.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on May 01, 2017, 01:03:15 PM
jim VH, thanks for the tip. I'll contact Stan and ask if he presently has any in stock.  I've known Stan for quite some time.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Florian on June 23, 2017, 11:43:28 AM
Quick update, my Citsuma has decided to flower for the first time and I am quite happy.
Ilya, what time of year does yours usually flower? I assume mine is so late because it is the first time?
(https://s17.postimg.org/ml21d50rf/20170623_171045.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ml21d50rf/)
cheers
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on June 24, 2017, 06:48:55 AM
You can find flowers all over the warm seasons but main flowers times are spring (one month after poncirus) and now.
Fruits of the first bloom will be ripe before the first freezes but the ones of the second bloom will have to be protected.

At this time of the year, the fruits of the first bloom are marble size.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Florian on July 03, 2017, 02:34:35 PM
Two flowers have opened and both have four petals but no stigma :o

(https://s22.postimg.org/6rdrh3qhp/20170703_143719.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6rdrh3qhp/)


Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on July 03, 2017, 03:24:10 PM
My Prague never had flowers with functional styles.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Florian on July 03, 2017, 03:30:29 PM
Good to know, thanks!
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Millet on July 03, 2017, 08:51:28 PM
I wonder if the Prague Citsuma that has incomplete flowers can be "pollinated" with gibbereillic acid the same way clementines are pollinated using gibberellic acid.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: SoCal2warm on July 13, 2017, 11:08:10 PM
From the quick research I've looked into, it seems that Citsuma Prague is most likely a cross between trifoliate and Satsuma mandarin (or less likely a mandarin in the same close category as Satsuma).

I do wonder about crossing Citsuma Prague with 10 degree tangerine, that would be interesting.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on July 14, 2017, 06:30:32 AM
Prague is a chimera of a large flowers poncirus (because I saw it) and a mandarin. The kind of mandarin is not known. We speculate that it is a satsuma because it was found in Prague and the fruits are seedless but the rind doesn't easily separate from the pulp (at least it is not so easy as for satsuma).

We can go farther. It is a periclinal chimera because of the leaves patern and a high stability.
The tree is thorny when poncirus are and mandarins are not. This character is carried by the first layer L1. It means the first layer is from Poncirus L1=P.
The fruit is pure mandarin and the leave margin is evergreen, it means the second layer is mandarin: L2=M.
The leaves center changes in autumn which means L3 is poncirus: L3=P.
So it seems that the periclinal chimerism is of the PMP type.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on July 14, 2017, 04:06:09 PM
It could be interesting to get it on own roots and try to propagate from root cuttings.
In this case layers will be different.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on July 14, 2017, 07:23:32 PM
Yes I already thought that. It eliminates the L1 if I remember well.
To root cuttings must not be difficult. I shall do it.
What seems harder is to recreate a plant starting from roots only...
I have seen it many times append naturally but never did it in purpose.

If I am right we might obtain a copy PMP or a very near form MMP (without thorns!).
The MMP could be less cold hardy than PMP.
I don't know from which layer the new L1 is created...

Tomorrow I shall start rooting many  cuttings... :-)
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on July 17, 2017, 09:15:53 AM
Quote
Tomorrow I shall start rooting many  cuttings...
Done.

Quote
If I am right we might obtain a copy PMP or a very near form MMP (without thorns!).
The MMP could be less cold hardy than PMP.
I don't know from which layer the new L1 is created...
From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC160199/pdf/041089.pdf (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC160199/pdf/041089.pdf) It seems that the shoots are made of F2 or F3.
It means we should obtain MMM and PPP.
No MMP without thorns.  :'(
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on July 17, 2017, 01:25:30 PM
Original L1 will be lost in root cuttings, in most cases it will be replaced by cells from L3, but it could also come from former L2, so MMP at least theoretically is possible. Since Prague is occasionally giving pure poncirus shoots, it is not entirely stabilized periclinal chimera, probably L2 does contain some proportion of poncirus cells.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on July 17, 2017, 06:43:58 PM
Thank you Ilya, very interesting. So we have some chance to obtain something new!  :)
We shall see in two years. One to root the cuttings and one to grow the roots adventices.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: nicolasm on August 05, 2017, 01:26:51 AM
Hi,
i'm an invidicual breeder interested by chimera, so i've came across the Cistuma Prague. Hope i can get a plant this fall and start playing with it. I'm new to citrus as i want only trees that could be planted on my property (-15°C min), so Prague seems to be able to make the deal :)

My hypothesis is that Prague is a SSP chimera (L1/L2 satsuma and L3 poncirus).

L3 : Rose/Blackberry thorns are from L1 but this is a different kind of thorns. "Studying" different chimeras between medlar and hawthorn, i came to the conclusion that spines are from L3. To test this hypothesis, one could root Prague, and make a root cutting to root. The plant should be all L3 and thus should be poncirus.

L2 : Seeds are from F2. As Prague seems to carry few seeds, it would lead to S2 = satsuma. Seedlings should be pure sastuma.
Also L2 + L3 gives leaf form, so if both L2 and L3 where poncirus, i guess leaves would be trifoliate.

L1 : Fruit juice is L1, so from taste it is Satsuma

To my knowledge there is no way to try to mix layers of the chimera to try to get new layer associations
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on August 05, 2017, 05:01:09 AM
To test this hypothesis, one could root Prague, and make a root cutting to root. The plant should be all L3 and thus should be poncirus.
As i wrote above, in most of the cases in root cuttings L1 will be replaced by L3 cells that are very invasive, but it could be  also be formed by the cells from the former L2 that are present in the roots.
L2 : Seeds are from F2. As Prague seems to carry few seeds, it would lead to S2 = satsuma. Seedlings should be pure sastuma.
Also L2 + L3 gives leaf form, so if both L2 and L3 where poncirus, i guess leaves would be trifoliate.
Sylvain demonstrated that fruits and seedlings are pure satsuma
Leaves are formed by all three layers, with L1 forming a leaf margin, this explains the fact that Prague have a very particular foliage.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on August 05, 2017, 07:44:52 AM
Quote
"Studying" different chimeras between medlar and hawthorn, i came to the conclusion that spines are from L3.
Could you give the source of what makes you think so?
Because from what I read  the Crateagomespilus chimera is of the type  crateagus/mespilus/mespilus. It is thorny and the thorns come from crateagus (L1).
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZVdoUPtqKCIC&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=Crataegomespilus+origin+of+thorns&source=bl&ots=9Vhk-EzVs9&sig=VPhgI6_t7w53XJ2754bhK7kKETA&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9o6ez-7_VAhVDaVAKHYgRAZs4ChDoAQgoMAA#v=onepage&q=Crataegomespilus%20origin%20of%20thorns&f=false
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on August 05, 2017, 11:11:00 AM
Quote
Fruit juice is L1.
Could you give your sources. Please.

In "The citrus  industry" I found few lines going in that way, but it's old (1968):
Quote
In Japan, two citrus forms considered to be synthetic periclinal chimeras have been in existence for some fifty years (Samura and Nakahara, 1928; Takahashi, 1962).   The Kobayashi Mikan is recorded as having arisen at the junction where a satsuma scion was grafted onto Natsudaidai.   This scion was accidently [sic] broken off at its base, after which two adventitious buds emerged, one of which grew into the original chimeral tree.   This chimera produces fruit with rind like Natsudaidai, but with flesh like satsuma.   It is seedy, and seedlings from one fruit were reported to be Natsudaidai (Dr. Yuishiro Tanaka, unpublished).   In this chimera, histogenic Layer II appears to be genetically Natsudaidai, while Layer I should be satsuma.
and
Quote
It appears that a mutant color factor is present in the Thompson in histogenic Layer I; this layer provides at least part of the cells of the juice vesicles

If it is confirmed we could be in presence of MMP as you say.

It means that among the roots adventices we might find many PMP and few MMP. Just the same as if the origin is PMP, because the L1 is dropped off.
In the first hypothesis (PMP) the majority should be identical to the origin and in the second  hypothesis (MMP) the majority should be different from the origin.

The suspense is unbearable!...  ;)

And indeed if the truth is "It seems that the shoots are made of F2 or F3." we shall obtain many poncirus and few mandarines...
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: nicolasm on August 05, 2017, 02:19:11 PM
Source of L1 = juice :
Quote
In the citrus fruit, the first germ layer L1 produces
the juice sacs of the fruit and the epidermis of the
pericarp, while L2 produces seeds, segment walls, the
hypoderm and the mesocarp of the pericarp, and L3
the vascular bundles (Cameron et al., 1964; Fost &
Krug, 1942; Kuhara, 1988).

Interactions between different genotypic tissues in citrus graft chimeras
Jinmei Zhou et  al.

Quote
It means that among the roots adventices we might find many PMP and few MMP. Just the same as if the origin is PMP, because the L1 is dropped off.
In the first hypothesis (PMP) the majority should be identical to the origin and in the second  hypothesis (MMP) the majority should be different from the origin.

I dont understand your phrase. Root tissue is pure L3 in trees (unlike in some rhizomes and some other cases) so any root adventices should be pure poncirus.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on August 05, 2017, 06:58:44 PM
Well, it seems that only L1 is lost in the root. That means that L2 and L3 are present.
Do you agree with that?

And thank you for L1 = juice. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: nicolasm on August 06, 2017, 02:54:51 AM
For L1 = juice i'm not so sure.
It seems that L1 is juice sac. I think juice is mostly L1 but can be somewhat modified by other layers (like sugar and acidity level, quoted in the paper). Maybe L2 = satsuma is important to be as close as possible to satsuma flavor. But color of rind and juice is L1, so i guess it is sure that L1 is satsuma (i let you confirm, as i'm a complete beginner with citsuma, satsuma and poncirus).

I guess that when you say F2 and F3 it means L2 and L3. Unfortunatly tree roots are pure L3. Other layers are present when roots are not true root but modified organs (blackberry, potatoes, mint...)
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on August 06, 2017, 06:51:01 AM
It is important to note that we do not have the original Citsuma , but  only grafted plants.
The rooted stem cuttings could produce roots either directly from cambium cells (L3) or from callus  that potentially could involve cells from any layer.
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Sylvain on August 06, 2017, 09:40:06 AM
After one day of research, in "Breeding For Ornamentals: Classical and Molecular Approaches" I found:

(http://pafranceparamoteur.free.fr/datas/perso/Agrumes/Root%20cutting.png)

Notice the "without exception"!
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: nicolasm on August 06, 2017, 03:14:29 PM
It is important to note that we do not have the original Citsuma , but  only grafted plants.
The rooted stem cuttings could produce roots either directly from cambium cells (L3) or from callus  that potentially could involve cells from any layer.

What i've understood is that root tissue is L3, not that it comes from cambium (L3).
Title: Re: Citsuma Prague
Post by: Ilya11 on August 06, 2017, 06:12:32 PM
All three embryonal layers in higher plants are pluripotent. They are able to generate callus and it  is giving  both stems and roots. In this case, roots are not necessary belong to original L3.
Moreover, while L1 is quite stable, L2 and L3 are constantly invading each other.  This explains uneven margin in decorative albino chimeras (L1=green, L2=albino, L3=green)
https://uwaterloo.ca/biology/sites/ca.biology/files/uploads/files/Lecture%207%20for%20students.pdf (https://uwaterloo.ca/biology/sites/ca.biology/files/uploads/files/Lecture%207%20for%20students.pdf).