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Author Topic: Citsuma Prague  (Read 937 times)

Florian

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Citsuma Prague
« on: April 15, 2017, 07:43:56 PM »
I'd like to share a picture of my Citsuma Prague which is the most bizarre citrus I have.
It has grown pretty well but it seems it wants to grow in all directions but upwards. If I let it grow it would be much wider than tall.
I know Ilya has one, too. I'd love to see some pictures.



Citradia

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2017, 10:12:11 PM »
That's neat. I wish I had a citsuma Prague. Would be nice to have a tree from , as grandma says, " the old country". The growth habit looks a lot like my citrange seedlings.

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2017, 02:32:37 PM »
You have very nice specimen. I have this Citsuma in the ground since 2004, but it is grafted on very weak rootstock and has not grown much. Never damaged, but flowering is very sporadic and fruits rapidly abort.


Last year I regrafted it on high stem of very strong poncirus, hope it will finally give some fruits.
Sylvain in Dordogne have very nice plant, almost 2 meters high , producing sweet fruits of very good quality.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2017, 03:10:45 PM »
Ilya,11 the Satsuma Prague is a cross between the Citsuma unshiu X Poncirus trifoliata correct?

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2017, 04:10:30 PM »
Millet,
Its origin is not yet clear. Leaves are  a mixture of bi- tri- or monofoliates.
The fruits are almost satsuma like, no poncirus smell or taste.
There is    suspicion that it is a chimera between poncirus and satsuma, but strangely enough even stems and leaves do not have odor or taste of poncirus.
Scientists in Brno show that the nuclei from its cells have homogeneous DNA content, that does not definitely  proves an absence of chimerism , but points more to the hybrid origin of this citrus.
On the other hand, Roberto from Wien observed an emergence of  poncirus like branch   distantly  from   grafting point.
It could be some second generation poncirus-satsuma hybrid with unstable genome, but no definite proof for this exists for the moment.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 04:09:01 AM by Ilya11 »
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2017, 08:48:05 PM »
Interesting, to bad there is no supplier of the tree in the USA.

Florian

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 06:25:21 AM »
Thank you so much for the information, Ilya. My plant is a strong grower but I would still like to graft it onto a taller poncirus because I like tree forms better. I will let it grow until it flowers and try to graft it then. I need more time anyway because my poncirus rootstocks are still very small since I have to grown them from seed.

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 09:12:07 AM »
Interesting, to bad there is no supplier of the tree in the USA.

I have a strong feeling, that mrtexas showed at old forum (few years ago) plant, which most likely is Citsuma Prague and he propagated it as great satsuma like mandarin with great hardiness.

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 01:06:32 PM »
It could be this variety in UCR collection:
http://www.citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/citrondarin.html

Best regards,
                       Ilya

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 03:54:22 PM »
ILYA11 Thanks for the link

Citradia

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2017, 06:33:32 PM »
I looked up chimera and looks like it is two different species fused together. Do we call this citrandarin chimera instead of hybrid because it has a good mandarin quality fruit on a trifoliata tree, whearas most trifoliate hybrids have a tree body and fruit that is a mix or blending of the two parent trees?

Florian

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 02:33:07 AM »
Well, Ilya said that the homogenous dna makes it rather unlikely to be a chimera but I am no expert.

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2017, 04:21:25 AM »
It is believed for a long time to be a chimera, but its origin is very obscure.
It is either originated in Abkhazia region of the USSR or  in  Prague, Czechoslovakia.
In USSR several attempts were made to produce poncirus/citrus chimera by the induction  and subsequent regeneration of massive callus at the grafting point.
By this, they believed to produce  plants containing cells from two species (chimeras). Most of such plants are unstable, giving branches of pure species, but occasionally a stable, so called periclinal chimera can be produced.
In the recent study   Czech scientists  isolated the cell nuclei from this plant, stained their genetic material (DNA) by fluorescent die and determined the intensity of fluorescence signal from individual nuclei. Since the genome of different citruses is slightly different in size, they hopped to see two peaks of fluorescent intensity if it is satsuma/poncirus chimera.
They observed only one, so it is either not a chimera  but a hybrid or   chimera  between poncirus  with some hybrid having approximately the  same  genome size as poncirus.
I guess only molecular markers can definitely  resolve the origin of this very strange plant.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2017, 04:48:44 AM »
According to Snek, there are three hybrids/chimeras known in former Czechoslovakia.
One is hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus selected by professor Pospisil in seventies, the plant is still in greenhouse of university in Prague.

(from the book „Pěstování citrusů“, c. SZN 1987, Ing. Stanislav Hušák, CSc., Doc.Ing. Vladimír Táborský, CSc., Prof. Ing. Pavel Valíček, DrSc.)
Second one is Chimere no.19 (unshiu  poncirus) from USSR.
)
(from the book „Pěstování citrusů“, c. SZN 1987, Ing. Stanislav Hušák, CSc., Doc.Ing. Vladimír Táborský, CSc., Prof. Ing. Pavel Valíček, DrSc.
And third one: hybrid P.t. X Unshiu from USSR too.



« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 04:53:17 AM by Radoslav »

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2017, 07:48:01 AM »
According to Snek, there are three hybrids/chimeras known in former Czechoslovakia.
One is hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus selected by professor Pospisil in seventies, the plant is still in greenhouse of university in Prague.
Radoslav,
Have you seen the recent photos of this surviving plant?
For me the old black and white picture of it looks very similiar to what I have in the garden.
On other hand, the picture from Riverside is also similiar, although their plant is described as chimera from Abkhazia.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 07:32:13 AM »
Quote
It has grown pretty well but it seems it wants to grow in all directions but upwards.
After few years the shoots go strait to the sky.

Quote
Sylvain in Dordogne have very nice plant, almost 2 meters high , producing sweet fruits of very good quality.
The tallest is now 2.50m. The second one is about 2m high and last year I made a third that is a little less than 2m. The last one is an over-graft on a '5 stars' grafted on PT. It is very vigorous.

Quote
Leaves are  a mixture of bi- tri- or monofoliates.
Like shown on the Ilya11's picture bifoliate and trifoliates are very rare. Most are deformed monofoliates.

Quote
The fruits are almost satsuma like
Not 'almost', they are pure satsuma fruits.

Quote
There is suspicion that it is a chimera between poncirus and satsuma
For me there is no doubt, it is a chimera.
This spring one very big flower appeared just at the same time than the poncirus flowers. Looking exactly the same. The Prague chimeras bloom nearly one month later with small flowers. The fruitlet issued from this flower is already big and have a velvet skin.
Now we know that the poncirus that made the chimera is of the large flowers kind.
Last year I had one seed from the fruits (the first one). It gave three seedlings that are pure mandarins.

Quote
It could be this variety in UCR collection
I don't think so. The fruits are very different. This one looks more like an orange than like a mandarin.



« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 06:22:12 PM by Sylvain »

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 09:10:31 AM »
Sylvain,
Have you been able to germinate its seeds?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 04:50:43 AM »
Yes, I have three seedlings growing.

Florian

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 05:09:35 AM »
Sylvain, would you have a picture of your plant and fruit?

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 08:16:28 AM »
Yes, I have three seedlings growing.
Is it possible to see them, please?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2017, 06:24:15 PM »
I came back home late and the light isn't good. :(

The tree:


Growing strait toward the sky:




Velvet fruit:


Regular fruit:


The first years the flowers were very small and irregular, with the time the flowers stabilize with three petals:


The seedlings:




Does someone dare to say it is not a chimera?

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2017, 08:22:16 PM »
Silvain it is sure easy to see the Poncirus parentage in your tree.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:23:49 PM by Millet »

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2017, 03:38:36 AM »
Thank you Sylvain,
Your tree is huge and magnificent.
From what you presented it is clear it is a chimera between poncirus and pure satsuma.
Where you did got the budwood from?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2017, 07:01:34 AM »
It was from Petr Broza. At this time (2008/2009) we were only three (with B. Voss who found it) to have it.

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 11:10:36 AM »
Ąll what i know about this case, is that  snek thinks, that Voss during his visit in greenhouse in university of Prague dig out and took with him plant that was not the plant snek calls hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus, selected by professor Pospisil, but Chimere no.19 (unshiu  poncirus) from USSR. Voss gave it name citsuma Prague, but it is not the citsuma Prague which for example Snek and some others have in their collections. Chimere no.19 , grows upright, while  so called hybrid grows more like flying dragon, or willow.

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2017, 11:46:44 AM »
Radoslav,
I got my plant from B.Voss in 2004 and it looks exactly like a plant that has  Snek ( willow like with slim contorted  twigs).   
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2017, 01:36:22 PM »
i have never been interested in so called hardy citruses, but in this case I am forced  ;D to start a little investigation  8). Last week I personally met with one of the founders of czechoslovakian citrus growing. He grows citruses for more than 65 years. He traveled across USSR many times serching for citruses and other agricultural plants. He personally grafted some budwood on The Friendship Tree in Sochi, he speaks fluently russian, ukrainian, chechen, georgian etc. He cooperated with all soviet citrus experimental stations. Yesterday I sent him an e-mail and asked him about this case, because he cooperated with professor Pospisil in seventies. Once he will answer my question, I let you know more.

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2017, 03:40:55 PM »
For members that do not know what the Citrus Friendship Tree is that Radoslav wrote about in the above post see link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_Tree
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:44:54 PM by Millet »

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2017, 07:23:03 PM »
Radoslav, the one we have is not the Chimere no.19. On our plants the leaves are smaller than the fruits and the fruits are spherical not depressed at the apex.
And yes, it looks like flying dragon. For years mine behaved like this. It is only since two years that it started to grow upright.
Voss, Brosa, Snek, Ilya and I have the same plant. On the pictures there is no doubt.

Could you take a picture of the one witch still remains in the greenhouse in university of Prague? This way I could tell you if it's the same plant than the one we have.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 07:27:24 PM by Sylvain »

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2017, 04:35:46 AM »
I asked for picture, once I receive it, I will post it.

Florian

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2017, 04:15:06 AM »
This topic is turning out to be so great, thank you all for your contributions.
Sylvain, your plant has a nice, tall trunk. Did it form that all by itself or did you prune it that way? I am asking because you say it will grow upwards over time anyway but at the moment I doubt a bit that mine would form such a nice trunk..

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2017, 01:44:38 PM »
Just one note to the topic. Professor Pavel Valíček, co author of the book Pěstování citrusů (Growing of citruses) issued in 1987 from which are the pictures, confirmed to me, that hybrid Unshiu x Poncirus was selected by professor Pospisil in seventies, the plant is still in greenhouse of university in Prague.
But I remember that Ilya posted at old forum article, that unshiu mandarins do not hybridize and cross pollination with poncirus is only used to obtain seeds to get nucellar seedlings, or mutants. So it is possible that plant mentioned above is chimera, or mutant.

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2017, 03:34:31 PM »
But I remember that Ilya posted at old forum article, that unshiu mandarins do not hybridize and cross pollination with poncirus is only used to obtain seeds to get nucellar seedlings, or mutants. So it is possible that plant mentioned above is chimera, or mutant.
It is not a case, pollination with foreign pollen is used to enhance seed  formation in satsuma.
Poncirus is used because  its hybrids with satsuma having three leaflets are easily distinguished from   nucellar seedlings that are screened for for new traits emerging through natural somatic mutagenesis.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2017, 11:54:20 AM »
The odds of a mutant must be every slim, taking many many many  seed germinations.

Ilya11

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2017, 01:25:52 PM »
Of course, you need a large population of nucellar seedlings to produce better varieties.
But somatic mutations are not particularly rare.  Out of 200 nucellar seedlings  of Miyagawa-wase two new varieties: 'Okitsu-Wase' and 'Miho-Wase were selected in Japan.
http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/79-83%20(NISHIURA).pdf
also
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2017, 03:41:09 PM »
Plus not all mutations are superior varieties, some mutations are inferior varieties. Even then it could take 5- 10 years before fruit developed to determine if the new mutant is worth while. However it is always an adventure. Good luck.

Sylvain

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2017, 06:54:13 PM »
> Sylvain, your plant has a nice, tall trunk. Did it form that all by itself or did you prune it that way?
It is the rootstock (poncirus).

Radoslav

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2017, 07:50:15 AM »
Of course, you need a large population of nucellar seedlings to produce better varieties.
But somatic mutations are not particularly rare.  Out of 200 nucellar seedlings  of Miyagawa-wase two new varieties: 'Okitsu-Wase' and 'Miho-Wase were selected in Japan.
http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/79-83%20(NISHIURA).pdf
also


Interestig article. There s a nice story related to satsuma cultivars released in sixties mentioned in that article. Professor Pospisil from Czechoslovakia met with japan delegation at symposium at that time and they offered to him and his university in Prague some budwood.
It arrived in 1971 or so trough Japan embassy. It was then encrypted under names J1, J2 ....J6, means Japan 1 etc. and put on tests. For better chance to survive, budwood was also secretly given to 2 experienced growers to test it in thier private colections. I personally saw last week these trees in private collection still alive and kicking. Then it was oficially announced to USSR. Russians asked for budwood, but official statement from CSSR was that budwood did not survived.
After some time the names were released.
J1 - Okitsu
J2 - Matsuyama
J3 - Miyagawa
J4 - Miho
J5 - citrus sulcata
J6 - citrus sunki

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2017, 04:32:55 PM »
Ilya11 thank you for the Okitsu, Japan Horticultural Research Station article.  Interesting reading.

jim VH

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2017, 11:33:28 AM »
Millet,

Stan McKenzie sometimes has grafted Prague Citsumas available.  The one I got grafted -he thinks- on Poncirus rootstock had one small fruit last winter.  It was very good, sweet with a mandarin flavor and no poncirus aftertaste.

Millet

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Re: Citsuma Prague
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2017, 01:03:15 PM »
jim VH, thanks for the tip. I'll contact Stan and ask if he presently has any in stock.  I've known Stan for quite some time.

 

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