Author Topic: Topworking cogshall  (Read 6836 times)

sunworshiper

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Topworking cogshall
« on: September 02, 2018, 06:26:36 PM »
I'm converting to Fairchild and Honeykiss. Cogshsll has nice flavor but too much jelly seed for my liking. I cut it back hard in May - will have to post that pic later it is on a different device. Wasn't able to find bud wood for a long time - so it grew a lot! I did no tipping or shaping, interesting to see when it branched on its own - after about 2 feet.



Cut back to see what I have to work with






And all grafted!






Brev Grower

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2018, 11:36:19 AM »
I believe to help mitigate your jelly seed, you can pick the cogshall at a mature green stage. Also I think a lack of calcium contributes to increased jelly seed in mango. I think the fairchild and honeykiss are good mangoes to graft to it. Good luck!

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2018, 03:33:25 PM »
Yep.

I believe to help mitigate your jelly seed, you can pick the cogshall at a mature green stage. Also I think a lack of calcium contributes to increased jelly seed in mango.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2018, 05:29:00 PM »
Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.

sapote

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2018, 07:42:00 PM »
bud or veneer grafts? It looks like veneer  graft to me.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2018, 09:08:47 PM »
OK. You must have really sandy soil. Might have to blitz it with calcium -- 100 pounds or so of gypsum. It was a bad jelly seed year this year. But, I don't recall my cogshall being bad this year. It was just a little low on the sugar.

Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2018, 09:21:27 PM »
Yep - complete sand! Great info - I would never have guessed so much calcium! Is there any negative effect if you add too much?
OK. You must have really sandy soil. Might have to blitz it with calcium -- 100 pounds or so of gypsum. It was a bad jelly seed year this year. But, I don't recall my cogshall being bad this year. It was just a little low on the sugar.

Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2018, 09:22:31 PM »
Good eye - veneer grafts!
bud or veneer grafts? It looks like veneer  graft to me.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2018, 10:13:27 AM »
My Cogshall has also been a jelly seed magnet.  It's a mature tree, in ground for about 6 or 7 years, and about 18 feet tall.
When is the time to add calcium and how much.  I bought a 6 lb bag of this:  https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-gypsum/
Also, when is the time to feed with 0-0-50?  I'm thinking next month, some time in October?

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2018, 10:28:25 AM »
Honey Kiss can get internal breakdown as well.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2018, 11:25:25 AM »
Not that I know of. That's the quantity I use here on a yearly basis. You want Ca to K to be north of 10 to 1 for best flavor / max brix. Gypsum is only like 26% Ca.

Yep - complete sand! Great info - I would never have guessed so much calcium! Is there any negative effect if you add too much?
OK. You must have really sandy soil. Might have to blitz it with calcium -- 100 pounds or so of gypsum. It was a bad jelly seed year this year. But, I don't recall my cogshall being bad this year. It was just a little low on the sugar.

Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2018, 11:36:41 AM »
Now would be a good time to add gypsum. But you would be adding like 20x that much or more per tree. Gypsum is normally pretty cheap. I get mine for under $15 per 50 pound bag.

If you're on calcareous soil, Ca is generally not a limiting factor. I'm on calcareous soil, but I have roughly 6 inches of black compost on top of that (the product of super heavy mulching over the past decade), so my trees exhibit ca deficiency (the feeder roots tend to stay in the moist, nutrient dense compost area). Problem with compost is that the Ca to K ratio is like 2 to 1; the K offsets the Ca and leads to internal breakdown. Adding a few tons of gypsum per year did the trick.

Here's an FSHS article detailing how 9 tons / acre (about 1,000 pounds per tree) was used to mitigate jelly seed on deep florida sand: https://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1962-vol-75/364-371%20(YOUNG).pdf

My Cogshall has also been a jelly seed magnet.  It's a mature tree, in ground for about 6 or 7 years, and about 18 feet tall.
When is the time to add calcium and how much.  I bought a 6 lb bag of this:  https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-gypsum/
Also, when is the time to feed with 0-0-50?  I'm thinking next month, some time in October?
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 12:03:14 PM »
That much gypsum?!  Wow!  And here I was thinking I'm being proactive by sprinkling some around the tree.   :-[

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2018, 06:09:35 PM »
"Is there any negative effect if you add too much?"

Whiter teeth and straighter spine (not like guys in Congress).

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2018, 09:12:54 PM »
Thanks for the fantastic info Cookie Monster! I definitely need to be using more then!

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2018, 10:26:51 PM »
Timing with the host plant flushing growth was perfect! I'm seeing growth on the Fairchild scions:
 




Honeykiss scions are still green and healthy looking but not growing yet - hopefully soon!

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2018, 06:53:23 PM »
Check out my uber graft shoot! All this pale green is from the scion:



And a close up of the graft:



Most of the takes look a lot more like this:



So what should I do with that super vigorous one? I've never had one sprout so many shoots. Should I leave all of them, or carefully cull down to fewer? If so how many? I want the graft union to be strong- I'm not sure if so much branching right at the union would make a weak structure.

Oh, and I'd heard honeykiss is harder to graft than other varieties- appears true for me. I had several Fairchild takes, but unfortunately all the honeykiss failed. Any tips on how to get honeykiss to take? I'd like to try again next time I can locate budwood.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2018, 02:26:35 PM »
I would take out the most vigorous 1 or 2 (if you can tell), or ones that were growing in the same direction, or the ones in the middle. Your choice, but you don't need 5 coming from that scion. I might also wait for another flush before doing so, just in case the tree decides to prune a couple for you.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2018, 05:55:27 PM »
Timing with the host plant flushing growth was perfect! I'm seeing growth on the Fairchild scions:
 




Honeykiss scions are still green and healthy looking but not growing yet - hopefully soon!

On these photos, did you un-tape and re-taped to let the new tiny shoots out of the covered tape? doing so at this stage could dislodge the scion leading to failed graft.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2018, 06:40:40 PM »
My big Cogshall was knocked down by Irma.  I replaced it with a Sweet Tart.  I used to think my Pickering was my best tasting mango.  Not any more.  The ST is fantastic.  I hear the Lemon Zest is very good.  Any one agree?
Dan

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 08:36:13 AM »
LZ is fantastic. But I give the edge to Sweet Tart. Just pure all-rounded excellence.
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Brev Grower

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2018, 09:05:53 AM »
IMO LZ is much better than Sweet Tart! I am probably in the minority here though...  I almost think the sweet tart is too powerful. It's the last mango I eat at a sitting because it ruins the flavor of other mangoes. So I would say try before you buy a Sweet Tart. IOW, don't put any sweet tart on that Cogshall before you know what you're getting. I do think that Honey Kiss is a good cv. to put on the Cogshall. Disappointed to hear it might be more difficult to get takes with Honey Kiss. This is the first I heard of it...

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2018, 01:05:07 PM »
Yep - complete sand! Great info - I would never have guessed so much calcium! Is there any negative effect if you add too much?
OK. You must have really sandy soil. Might have to blitz it with calcium -- 100 pounds or so of gypsum. It was a bad jelly seed year this year. But, I don't recall my cogshall being bad this year. It was just a little low on the sugar.

Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.

I see you’re close by me over in Oviedo. What mangos are you growing and how have you been protecting them from cold? I’ve been wanting to try an inground mango for awhile. Only have enough room for one tree in a small space near the house.

The past several winters were warm, but I saw several healthy 15-20 foot mangos get killed to the ground by the moderate freezes earlier this year even with protection. They were kind of out in the open.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2018, 08:18:30 PM »
Bev grower - thanks for the advise on removing shoots, I am going to do as you suggest and let it have another growth flush before doing the culling, and possibly waiting to spring.

I have had both lemon zest and sweet tart - both excellent but I prefer sweet tart. Unfortunately, those varieties are too vigorous for me to grow. I have to keep my trees at 6' to be able to frost protect. That really limits which varieties I can grow.

That made the honeykiss not taking especially frustrating, since it can be kept small. Pulling apart some of the failed grafts, it looks like lack of cambium contact was the issue, some minor fusing, just not enough. I suspect the issue is my lack of skill in making the cut on the host tree to the right depth. For I can get more budwood I want to try that coffin/grave method rather than veneer. Didn't see that method until after I grafted, I think I could get a better take rate that way. If anyone has budwood they can share please drop me a pm.

Indigoemu - I have Pickering, Manilita, Maha Chanok & this cogshall I'm top working. As you noted it is essential to cold protect, or trees will be killed outright. That pretty much means limiting to varieties that can be kept small. Now that my trees are established all I need is c9 old fashioned Xmas lights to protect from light frosts. For a hard freeze I put up a mini hoop house over each tree - made of plastic sheeting and pvc pipe with a trouble light inside - those have successfully protected at 26 degrees for multiple hours and below 32 for 10 hours straight. If you search the cold protection threads I think some of my pics are still around of that setup. If I could only have one tree here it would be the manilita - it stays smallest and is most productive. The fruit is pretty and is consistently good flavored. Obviously can't compete with something like ST for flavor, but miles better than a grocery store mango.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2018, 08:23:32 PM »
Timing with the host plant flushing growth was perfect! I'm seeing growth on the Fairchild scions:
 




Honeykiss scions are still green and healthy looking but not growing yet - hopefully soon!

On these photos, did you un-tape and re-taped to let the new tiny shoots out of the covered tape? doing so at this stage could dislodge the scion leading to failed graft.

No, I carefully used a razor blade to knick a hole for the growth to push through. I have had zero luck with biodegradingn tape like parafilm, all grafts I've done with it failed. I instead use a Japanese bonsai grafting tape that is much cheaper and works better for me. It is very strong tho - so the shoots need help breaking through, and the tape has to be manually removed (probably not until spring).

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2018, 09:32:36 PM »


Indigoemu - I have Pickering, Manilita, Maha Chanok & this cogshall I'm top working. As you noted it is essential to cold protect, or trees will be killed outright. That pretty much means limiting to varieties that can be kept small. Now that my trees are established all I need is c9 old fashioned Xmas lights to protect from light frosts. For a hard freeze I put up a mini hoop house over each tree - made of plastic sheeting and pvc pipe with a trouble light inside - those have successfully protected at 26 degrees for multiple hours and below 32 for 10 hours straight. If you search the cold protection threads I think some of my pics are still around of that setup. If I could only have one tree here it would be the manilita - it stays smallest and is most productive. The fruit is pretty and is consistently good flavored. Obviously can't compete with something like ST for flavor, but miles better than a grocery store mango.

Manilita sounds like a nice variety for me. As someone who’s only ever eaten grocery store mangos (and finds them delicious) I think I’ll be perfectly happy with any mango whose taste falls between “better than a grocery store mango” and “every other mango variety”.

Unfortunately with a quick google search it definitely seems like an uncommonly grown mango. Any idea where I might be able to source one? I hope I don’t have to go all the way to Fairchild for one - but I will!

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2018, 08:45:15 AM »
Hmm, I did indeed get my Manilita from Fairchild, and I don't see any obvious other sources. Anyone else know if they are for sale anywhere else? If you want to try your hand at grafting I could share budwood.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2018, 10:31:30 AM »


Indigoemu - I have Pickering, Manilita, Maha Chanok & this cogshall I'm top working. As you noted it is essential to cold protect, or trees will be killed outright. That pretty much means limiting to varieties that can be kept small. Now that my trees are established all I need is c9 old fashioned Xmas lights to protect from light frosts. For a hard freeze I put up a mini hoop house over each tree - made of plastic sheeting and pvc pipe with a trouble light inside - those have successfully protected at 26 degrees for multiple hours and below 32 for 10 hours straight. If you search the cold protection threads I think some of my pics are still around of that setup. If I could only have one tree here it would be the manilita - it stays smallest and is most productive. The fruit is pretty and is consistently good flavored. Obviously can't compete with something like ST for flavor, but miles better than a grocery store mango.

Manilita sounds like a nice variety for me. As someone who’s only ever eaten grocery store mangos (and finds them delicious) I think I’ll be perfectly happy with any mango whose taste falls between “better than a grocery store mango” and “every other mango variety”.

Unfortunately with a quick google search it definitely seems like an uncommonly grown mango. Any idea where I might be able to source one? I hope I don’t have to go all the way to Fairchild for one - but I will!

Its usually in stock at ZHPP so most retail nurseries should have it or at least have access to it.
You can try requesting it from your local nursery.
I have a tree and like the fruit, not a flavor bomb but I still appreciate it.

If you still have trouble finding one, let me know next time you're down south and I'll pick up one for you.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2018, 10:48:23 AM »
Why don't you try the Angie mango tree, either stand alone or grafted onto a rootstock. I just saw a friends tree he has had for 5-6 years and its only a tad over 6 feet tall. I think he said he got 30 or 40 mangoes from it. I personally have not tasted it yet but I hear it's very good. Angie is supposed to be an improved Carrie. If you like Carrie - It's one of my favorites. Probably much better than manilita. Rosiegold can also be kept small. Kind of one dimensional but i like the flavor, sometimes has a hint of vanilla to my palate. Both of theses mangoes are early producers where as the Honey Kiss is later season. Just a thought...

E.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2018, 01:05:15 PM »
Why don't you try the Angie mango tree, either stand alone or grafted onto a rootstock. I just saw a friends tree he has had for 5-6 years and its only a tad over 6 feet tall. I think he said he got 30 or 40 mangoes from it. I personally have not tasted it yet but I hear it's very good. Angie is supposed to be an improved Carrie. If you like Carrie - It's one of my favorites. Probably much better than manilita. Rosiegold can also be kept small. Kind of one dimensional but i like the flavor, sometimes has a hint of vanilla to my palate. Both of theses mangoes are early producers where as the Honey Kiss is later season. Just a thought...

E.

IMO...(had to say it)
Carrie has a more intense flavor than Angie, if it was solely based on that I would take Carrie over it.
The things that Angie has going for it is that its a small tree, firmer fruit, prettier fruit.
If you like that flavor profile I'd consider getting Val Carrie or Edgar (bigger trees though)

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2018, 01:42:28 PM »
Angie definitely seems more available than manilita. I’m quite a fan on how the latter tree looks in subworshipper’s past photos of their tree though. (Speaking of which, do you have any current photos of the tree?) Can’t say I’d be too anxious in grafting as I’ve barely touched on research when it comes to doing so.

Size would probably be the definitive factor in my choosing. Seems Angie is mostly called a “semi-dwarf” as opposed to a complete dwarf...in assuming that means growth habit without pruning. How often do mangos require pruning to keep small? (6-8ft?)

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2018, 02:37:44 PM »
You want to prune back every year once they reach a certain size(6-8 ft or whatever). I was surprised at how small and compact the Angie was. It was in a yard possibly 1/4 mile from the ocean. The only true dwarf I've seen is the Julie mango here in Fl. But even the Julie reaches 30ft. in the islands. Pickering is dwarfish, but I have one that is reaching 8-9 ft in about 4 years from planting at 3gal and 2ft high. Mango trees actually do pretty well even with severe pruning. You may lose a season of production if too severe (as in cold damage), but they will come back if properly taken care of. Just make sure you keep the tree warm in freezing weather above the graft site, maybe even a lower branch.
E.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2018, 02:42:31 PM »
Hey Sun worshiper, what is this coffin grave method of grafting you are talking about?

E.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2018, 08:16:32 PM »
Hey Sun worshiper, what is this coffin grave method of grafting you are talking about?

E.

The one described in this thread http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=29250.msg330751#msg330751 looks really effective.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2018, 08:54:19 PM »
Angie definitely seems more available than manilita. I’m quite a fan on how the latter tree looks in subworshipper’s past photos of their tree though. (Speaking of which, do you have any current photos of the tree?) Can’t say I’d be too anxious in grafting as I’ve barely touched on research when it comes to doing so.

Size would probably be the definitive factor in my choosing. Seems Angie is mostly called a “semi-dwarf” as opposed to a complete dwarf...in assuming that means growth habit without pruning. How often do mangos require pruning to keep small? (6-8ft?)

I technically have Angie - it was top worked to become my Maha Chanok. You can search my previous comments on its characteristics. After some great discussion, the conclusion seems to be that it had good flavor on calcerous south fl soil, but terrible flavor on central fl sand. So if your soil is sandy, I wouldn't choose Angie.  And size wise for me From smallest to largest tree size
Manilita, Pickering, Angie, Maha Chanok, cogshall
I'll try to post a new pic of the manilita over the weekend. Pickering and manilita are about the same volume, but shaped different. Pickering is low and wide and manilita is a little taller, but narrower. Both are easy to keep under 6' tall. Angie I could maintain at 8' easily and keep to 6' with difficulty. Maha Chanok is new but based on habit should be easy to maintain at less than 8'. Cogshall is difficult to keep to 8' and impossible to keep at 6'. It would I think be easy to maintain at 10'.

Pruning aggressively to maintain a small tree means one major pruning each year after harvest and then tipping to force branching after each growth flush except the last of the season. There are usually 1-3 growth flushes a year in central fl after fruit harvest and before winter causes dormancy. So not a big time commitment to keep a single tree pruned. Works out to 2-3 prunings per year. 

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2018, 11:07:39 PM »
Angie definitely seems more available than manilita. I’m quite a fan on how the latter tree looks in subworshipper’s past photos of their tree though. (Speaking of which, do you have any current photos of the tree?) Can’t say I’d be too anxious in grafting as I’ve barely touched on research when it comes to doing so.

Size would probably be the definitive factor in my choosing. Seems Angie is mostly called a “semi-dwarf” as opposed to a complete dwarf...in assuming that means growth habit without pruning. How often do mangos require pruning to keep small? (6-8ft?)

I technically have Angie - it was top worked to become my Maha Chanok. You can search my previous comments on its characteristics. After some great discussion, the conclusion seems to be that it had good flavor on calcerous south fl soil, but terrible flavor on central fl sand. So if your soil is sandy, I wouldn't choose Angie.  And size wise for me From smallest to largest tree size
Manilita, Pickering, Angie, Maha Chanok, cogshall
I'll try to post a new pic of the manilita over the weekend. Pickering and manilita are about the same volume, but shaped different. Pickering is low and wide and manilita is a little taller, but narrower. Both are easy to keep under 6' tall. Angie I could maintain at 8' easily and keep to 6' with difficulty. Maha Chanok is new but based on habit should be easy to maintain at less than 8'. Cogshall is difficult to keep to 8' and impossible to keep at 6'. It would I think be easy to maintain at 10'.

Pruning aggressively to maintain a small tree means one major pruning each year after harvest and then tipping to force branching after each growth flush except the last of the season. There are usually 1-3 growth flushes a year in central fl after fruit harvest and before winter causes dormancy. So not a big time commitment to keep a single tree pruned. Works out to 2-3 prunings per year.


That’s good to know about Angie, thanks! My soil is indeed 98% sand. Probably not too different than Oviedo.

I’ve researched a bit before about Pickering as it seems to be a fairly well known smaller tree, but backed away from the idea as I wasn’t sure how well it would perform in the area. How well does yours produce/how’s the taste?

My interest in mango has definitely been rekindled. :)

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2018, 07:59:53 AM »
Pickering grows well, slow and steady. It is less consistent than Manilita with its fruiting habits, it flowers every year, but sets less reliably. I usually have a few, but not a lot.  The fruit is good, with a slight coconut flavor and no subacid element - it is all sweet. I suspect it's flavor is different on sand than on calcerous soil. While it is still in the good range  for me it doesn't match other people's descriptions of fruit quality. Also, the fruit are hideous here - not at all pretty like ones I've seen others post. The biggest consideration tho is that raccoons love them - they absolutely have to be protected with plastic clamshells or raccoons will get all of them. Even with the plastic shells, raccoons still get some. Raccoons on the other hand completely ignore the Manilita. No idea why, but I don't protect those, and never had a one taken by raccoon - weird right?

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2018, 06:35:10 PM »
Here's what the manilita looks like today. It is just under 6' tall.




IndigoEmu

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2018, 07:37:27 PM »
Very attractive tree. Probably set on this variety!  I wonder how much nitrogen is available to the tree from all those perennial peanuts; it certainly isn’t upset about them!

How’ve you been feeding your mangos?

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2018, 11:07:18 PM »
I think you'll be happy with a manilita, it's a really nice tree. I don't think the peanut adds much nitrogen - it sometimes looks yellow itself and the areas under the citrus tree are noticeably greener after I fertilize it. It does help to suck up extra water from irrigation though, the mangos don't need it, but all the other plants do. the mangos get one fertilizer application after harvest. I use Lukas nursery's 4in1 - they formulated for the local soil here and it works great. That's the only nitrogen they get. I also do iron drenches in late summer and a couple foliage sprays a year to provide additional minors.