The Tropical Fruit Forum

Citrus => Citrus General Discussion => Topic started by: Laaz on April 26, 2019, 03:02:49 PM

Title: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 26, 2019, 03:02:49 PM
So I've had a few people ask me about my soil mix. It's pretty much a 50 / 50 mix of Miracle Gro garden soil & Turface MVP with some clay balls thrown in as filler. (If you're in Europe you will use Seramis as it's pretty much the same as Turface MVP)

So here goes. By the way, this mix is impossible to over water...

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/28hjy81.jpg)

(http://oi66.tinypic.com/1052seo.jpg)

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/33zfn9y.jpg)

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/14xmi5d.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 26, 2019, 03:06:31 PM
(http://oi63.tinypic.com/aew7k2.jpg)

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2ir9qvo.jpg)

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/2m4u5ns.jpg)

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/o7jdox.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 26, 2019, 03:15:31 PM
Some of my Lytocaryum palms in the mix, they love it.

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/ea2wkz.jpg)

(http://oi66.tinypic.com/w2oc2o.jpg)

And some of my Eugenia's in the same mix & doing awesome.

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/13yjfip.jpg)

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/9rulxl.jpg)

And don't forget to add a little STEM to your waterings. (Thanks Bob)

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/2w2pgtf.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 26, 2019, 03:32:39 PM
How much do the plants like this mix? Here's my Lytocaryum's that were in the mix for just over a year. They were put in the 5 gal container from the little square pots & barely out of strap leaf stage.

(http://oi66.tinypic.com/2drgk0h.jpg)

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/2hf78gh.jpg)

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2d01f0z.jpg)

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/1ina69.jpg)

They are now potted up to 10 gal containers & will probably need up-sizing again next spring...

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2i8bp6t.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: tve on April 27, 2019, 05:23:54 PM
Thanks for posting, quite interesting! Is that Turface MVP similar to Vermiculite?
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 27, 2019, 09:45:10 PM
Thanks for posting this.  I have been using a mulch/peat/perlite mix for years.  It is light enough for me to be able to carry the containers around easily.  However, now that I have a greenhouse my larger trees will all be in ground and I have been wanting to switch to a more permanent soil for the plants I keep in containers.  I am going to see if I can locate the turface and clay pebbles.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Millet on April 27, 2019, 10:46:04 PM
Laaz, do you really need the clay balls ?  Turface and Miracle Grow Garden Soil at a 50/50 mix, seems to drain very very well, while still retaining good moisture levels.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 27, 2019, 11:00:45 PM
No, but they make for a good fill material.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 27, 2019, 11:02:28 PM
Laaz, do you really need the clay balls ?  Turface and Miracle Grow Garden Soil at a 50/50 mix, seems to drain very very well, while still retaining good moisture levels.

Go to their website & put your zip in, it will show you who sells it in your area.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: tve on April 28, 2019, 12:08:36 AM
Laaz, what is the end cost of a cu ft of your mix? I've been getting the E.B.Stone Citrus&Palm planting mix, which works very well but is heavy due to a good amount of sand. It ends up around $6/cuft.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Seanny on April 28, 2019, 01:08:21 AM
Do you water your plants every day?
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 28, 2019, 07:44:58 AM
Never really tried to figure out the cost. I stock up when stuff is on sale. This week Lowes & Home depot have the 2 cubic ft bags of the garden soil on sale for 2 bags for $12.

No, I don't water every day, the soil hold quite a bit of moisture.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: daytripper on April 29, 2019, 10:15:27 AM
Clay balls can be found at any hydroponics store, google hydroton and you find many places to purchase them.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 29, 2019, 10:19:43 AM
That's where I got mine & they were cheap...
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 29, 2019, 03:09:18 PM
My nearest Turface supplier has Turface "all sport" but not "MVP".  I compared the spec sheet and they are identical except that "all sport" has more liberal tolerance for granule size variance (i.e. lower quality control I guess).   It's pretty cheap at $14 for a 50lb bag.   I'm going to pick some up.

Quote
https://www.turface.com/sites/default/files/_media/resource/turface_mvp_data_sheet_12.2017_1.pdf (https://www.turface.com/sites/default/files/_media/resource/turface_mvp_data_sheet_12.2017_1.pdf)
STANDARD PARTICLE SIZE ANALYSIS "MVP":
% Retained
6 MESH (3.36 mm) 16.4% +/- 5.0%
8 MESH (2.38 mm) 41.1% +/- 5.4%
12 MESH (1.68 mm) 23.7% +/- 3.5%
20 MESH (.841 mm) 18.0% +/- 6.6%
30 MESH (.595 mm) 0.7% +/- 0.7%
50 MESH (.297 mm) 0.1% +/- 0.1%
Pan 0.1% +/- 0.1%

https://www.turface.com/sites/default/files/_images/content/turface_all_sport_data_sheet_2.12.18_0.pdf (https://www.turface.com/sites/default/files/_images/content/turface_all_sport_data_sheet_2.12.18_0.pdf)
TYPICAL SIEVE ANALYSIS "all sport":
% Retained
6 MESH (3.36 mm) 16.7% +/- 7.7%
8 MESH (2.38 mm) 41.1% +/- 6.5%
12 MESH (1.68 mm) 23.2% +/- 5.1%
20 MESH (.841 mm) 18.1% +/- 8.3%
30 MESH (.595 mm) 0.7% +/- 0.7%
50 MESH (.297 mm) 0.2% +/- 0.2%
Pan 0.1% +/- 0.1%
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 29, 2019, 03:14:25 PM
So is the hydroton really necessary?  It seems to be interchangeable with perlite, so same question there - what are pros/cons of including hydroton/perlite versus simply 50:50 garden soil and Turface?
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: tve on April 29, 2019, 03:26:35 PM
I'm a bit curious about the use of turface, doesn't it retain too much moisture? As far as I can tell, it's about equivalent to vermiculite and retains more than perlite or pumice.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 29, 2019, 04:10:30 PM
I dunno.  I just bought 4x 50lb bags.  The data sheet says it is fired clay pebbles.  So it should have about the same absorption as terra cotta?  That is, not much but more than zero.   Certainly should retain less water than the mulch that I would otherwise be using.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 29, 2019, 04:31:20 PM
I've been using it for over a year & like I said it is IMPOSSIBLE to over water the trees in this mix. Every plant that I have potted in it looks excellent. I am just starting to put citrus in it this spring & feel confident they will do as well as my other plants. Between the garden soil & turface it seems to hold just the right amount of moisture to keep them happy. You can add extra garden soil if you want to keep it more moist.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: tve on April 29, 2019, 04:46:25 PM
when you repo, do you replace stuff that is inside the root ball, or just fill around the outside? A lot of the "garden soil" is probably organic and decomposes?
Sorry for the dumb questions...

Edit: I've been doing some reading around. I found this interesting about turface (negative opinion): https://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/ (https://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/) and http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html (http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html) a good overview. These are for bonsai, so some differences apply... I'm not trying to say that Laaz mix is bad, I'm just intrigued :-).
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 29, 2019, 06:31:35 PM
Lmao! You'll always find somebody to bitch about something.

I spray the rootball with my hose on high pressure to remove what I can, then pack the rootball again with what I can get into it. After that I gradually add my mix & water it into the roots as I go.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 30, 2019, 02:12:17 PM
So... I just tried this and it is *awful*.  I filled two identical pots, one with my usual 5-1-1 mix and another with 50:50 turface and miracle grow.  The 5-1-1 mix took 30sec to drain, and the 50:50 mix took ~10min.   I'm pretty sure the culprit is the miracle grow soil.  Previously on this forum we've speculated that Scotts makes different formulations for different regions sold under the same packaging.  I think that is the case.  Mine looks like muck, nothing like yours.  It seems to have very small particle size and is thick like topsoil.

5-1-1 on left and 50:50 on right.  I have more pictures but it seems new iphones use an image format that ... doesn't work on windows.
(https://i.imgur.com/89GorNt.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 30, 2019, 02:40:04 PM
I don't know what that is, but it's not the same as the stiff I get here. What is all the white stuff floating? You got "garden soil" & not potting mix right?
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 30, 2019, 02:47:10 PM
Post a photo of your 50 / 50 mix before you water it.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 30, 2019, 02:59:32 PM
My mix...

Garden soil

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/a6qds.jpg)

Dry mix

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/2wmewch.jpg)

After watering.

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/2qxyr61.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 30, 2019, 03:14:43 PM
Yes definitely "all purpose" garden soil and not the potting types.  I think the white stuff on top is just dust from the turface, I didn't wash it first.  I'm trying to convert my other pictures into a useable format now...
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 30, 2019, 03:46:18 PM
I don't know what it is, but my mix drain very quick. Never even close to water sitting on the soil surface.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 30, 2019, 06:14:05 PM
Here's the other pictures.  The miracle grow soil has the consistency of manure.


(https://i.imgur.com/HQ8Vkov.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/a0P4g0V.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2yReu4I.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/gnjAOqr.jpg?2)
(https://i.imgur.com/35MzkLo.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 30, 2019, 08:58:01 PM
Interesting... Definitely not the same as what I have here. In your case you need a shitload more Turface mixed in. I wonder if you got some bags of potting mix that are mislabeled.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Millet on April 30, 2019, 09:00:43 PM
I could not read the label on your Miracle Grow bag.  Is the bag labeled Miracle Grow Garden Soil?   One big  problem with Miracle Grow Garden Soil is that it is made from different formulations in different sections of the country.  Here in Colorado the product contains a high level of bark chips giving our product a light airy texture. The Colorado formulation has very good drainage even with nothing added.  From the looks of your product, I would be afraid to use it.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on April 30, 2019, 09:05:44 PM
Same here, mostly pine bark chips.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 30, 2019, 09:08:51 PM
The turface seems promising, though.  I'm going to try something like 5-1-5 mulch/peat/turface instead of 5-1-1 mulch/peat/perlite.   The miracle grow formulation I'm getting is no good. 

Here's the picture of the bags, and the turface itself is obviously fine.

(https://i.imgur.com/UnftvU0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qZmKDZe.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Millet on April 30, 2019, 09:11:36 PM
Brian, I cannot see the label on either bag, it does not show in your picture.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 30, 2019, 09:15:06 PM
Oh I thought you meant the marketing name.  Let me check the back...
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on April 30, 2019, 09:19:53 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/QakoB9c.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zNvnhAS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Mfl45Se.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Millet on April 30, 2019, 11:07:01 PM
The bag does say "Garden Soil", but the bag does not look anything like the bags I purchase.  Not even close.  The Miracle Grow Garden Soil sold in Colorado is in a yellow, red and green bag.  Your product looks terrible.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Seanny on May 01, 2019, 12:15:10 AM
It says "For In-Ground Use".
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 01, 2019, 07:01:01 AM
It's the same bag I get here. May just be a bad batch or very old & decomposing.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Vlad on May 01, 2019, 08:42:26 AM
The MG garden soil I bought looks like Brian's.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: daytripper on May 01, 2019, 09:46:26 AM
The miracle grow garden soil I get here on Long Island looks exactly the same as what is shown in Brian's picture.  It is supposed to be mixed in with the soil already in your garden.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Millet on May 01, 2019, 11:42:43 AM
As written above, Miracle Grow Garden Soil is not the same texture in different sections of the country,  I don't see any wood chips in Brian's MGGS. The Miracle Grow Garden Soil sold in Colorado has lots of wood chips in its formulation, and has excellent drainage, I've had trees growing in it for 3 years with no problems at al.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on May 01, 2019, 11:48:10 AM
I assume the "good" miracle good batches are still simply mulch & peat, both of which are cheap and readily available.   I'll simply go back to mixing my own for that portion of the mix.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 02, 2019, 03:45:26 PM
I just watered this lemon for 5 min straight & zero standing water...

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/295eplt.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 03, 2019, 07:51:32 AM
As much as you know I hate walmart... My wife came across this many years ago & it's very close to the MG garden soil we get here, give it a shot if they have it in the northeast...

Expert Gardener® Garden Soil

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Expert-Gardener-Garden-Soil-2cf/823590249?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=3367&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42423897272&wl4=pla-51320962143&wl5=9010496&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=823590249&wl13=3367&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj_rTyqT_4QIVlEwNCh0IsQR-EAkYAiABEgJFfPD_BwE (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Expert-Gardener-Garden-Soil-2cf/823590249?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=3367&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42423897272&wl4=pla-51320962143&wl5=9010496&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=823590249&wl13=3367&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj_rTyqT_4QIVlEwNCh0IsQR-EAkYAiABEgJFfPD_BwE)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on May 03, 2019, 09:36:02 PM
I just repotted a bunch of plants into 5-1-5 mulch/peat/turface and I like it a lot.   It’s easy potting up plants because the mix flows well and is dense enough to support plants.  Drains very well.  I think this must be close to your experience
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Millet on May 03, 2019, 11:01:28 PM
brian, your 5-1-5 medium is just about the same consistency as Laaz's first recommendation of a 50/50 MGGS/turface.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: brian on May 04, 2019, 10:06:32 AM
Yup, it’s a good mix. 
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 04, 2019, 10:23:08 AM
I'm still wondering what was in that first bag you posted. Looks like they went out in a field & scooped up pure cow crap & stuffed it in the bag.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Jan on May 14, 2019, 09:58:32 AM
Hi all!!! I’m new here I’m usually on gardenweb but I saw this post and just had to contribute my two cents.  Laaz we talk quite a bit about how amazing your growing of citrus is over at gardenweb seems like everyone knows you and millet :) anyways on the recommendation of silica I decided to try MGGS as well and just in case someone else is in Vancouver I’d like to post the picture of my mix.  I’ve been using it for almost a year now and winter in the coolgreenhouse watering once every two weeks and all seems well no root rot yet but I do add maybe 10% bark and 10% perlite to mine because mine doesn’t seem quite as bark filled as yours.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3dMLg4yb/D1-DA27-D2-15-D3-4170-A0-F6-1918-A775-F156.png) (https://postimg.cc/3dMLg4yb)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 14, 2019, 10:06:10 AM
See if you can locate Turface, has excellent drainage. Go to their site & put in your zip. There's a store locator there.

Yes, we used to post there until it became a zoo...
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 14, 2019, 12:40:59 PM
And there you go.

CPS Canada, Inc. - Evergro Division
(604) 940-0290
7430 Hopcott Rd
Delta, BC V4G 1B6
Canada
 
Evergro Canada
(800) 663-2552
7430 Hopcott Rd
Delta, BC V4G 1B6
Canada
 
BrettYoung - Delta BC
(604) 527-1038
Groundstar Express
Delta, BC V3M 6G9
Canada
 
Premier Pacific Seeds
(604) 881-1323
#203, 19315 - 96th Avenue
Surrey, BC V4N 4C4
Canada
 
SiteOne Landscape Supply #585
(604) 533-3067
#1 6279 - 202 St
Langley, BC V2Y 1N1
Canada
23.61 miles
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Jan on May 14, 2019, 07:32:20 PM
Thank you so much laaz I might just do that!  Do you think my soil will need more than 50% of turface since it doesn’t look as bark filled?
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 15, 2019, 06:24:11 AM
Your soil looks good. They only way to know is mix it & water it.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 23, 2019, 05:03:41 PM
So I tried some of my soil mix on my reaper peppers. As you can see the single plant in my mix is much better than the others in garden soil alone.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2dkwtxv.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: lebmung on May 23, 2019, 05:55:21 PM
Not a good idea to mist on pepper
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 23, 2019, 06:27:39 PM
I mist them all the time in this heat, never had a problem. This weekend will be 100F+ with insane humidity. I have ghost peppers still going from last year, over 4 ft tall & loaded with peppers.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 23, 2019, 06:37:52 PM
Lebmung don't like the heat?

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2ikfub5.jpg)
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Seanny on May 23, 2019, 07:15:19 PM
If you have insane humidity why do you mist?
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Laaz on May 23, 2019, 07:18:10 PM
To keep everything hydrated during the day. Things tend to dry out very quickly in the sun.
Title: Re: Container Soil Mix.
Post by: Bomand on May 23, 2019, 07:54:35 PM
I use the Expert Garden Soil mixed with sharp sand light weight agate (fired clay) works fine for me. I keep em watered and fertilized and have no root problems......