Dwarf Mango Project

[Future]

Years ago I participated in what turned out to be an epic tomato breeding project.  It started with an enthusiast who found a dwarf tomato variety in a USDA collection (iirc).  He grew it out and sure enough, it was a stocky indeterminant plant that needed no staking and didn't take over the yard.

It was crossed with an heirloom varietty with superior flavor and the project was born.  It takes about 9 generations for tomatoes to stabalize after cross pollination.  So to speed up the process, seeds were shared in the northern and southern hemispheres, getting at least two growing seasons in per year.  Second generation seeds segregate for parental traits and the selection begins. 

During the selection process, we planted out received seeds, say 1-2 dozen and it quickly becamse apparent which picked up the dwarf trait.  They were half the size of the other seedlings.  These were kept and grown out searching for something worthy, the other's culled.   

Fast forward and there are about 100 dwarf varieties that were created - big, flavorful heirloom quality in a manageable grow-in-a-pot tomato plant.  These were shared with small scale seed companies and have become widely available now.

So the selection process left me wondering about mangoes.  I know the genes are different (heterozygous vs. homozygous) and but paradoxically, selection might be faster with grafting onto already mature trees.  I have an ultra low branching Julie seedling in my yard and I'm curious, what % of Julie seedlings carry the dwarf 9or slow growing) trait.

And what % of those would provide an interesting improvement on Julie?

Cuttings from the dwarf reverse grafted onto an already mature tree would tell within a few seasons...

https://www.dwarftomatoproject.net/about/

Footnote I contributed to Dwarf Kangaroo Paw

[Jaboticaba45]

What you did with the tomatoes is interesting. I'm sure it would work with mangoes but would take a longer time.

[Nyuu]

Years ago I participated in what turned out to be an epic tomato breeding project.  It started with an enthusiast who found a dwarf tomato variety in a USDA collection (iirc).  He grew it out and sure enough, it was a stocky indeterminant plant that needed no staking and didn't take over the yard.

It was crossed with an heirloom varietty with superior flavor and the project was born.  It takes about 9 generations for tomatoes to stabalize after cross pollination.  So to speed up the process, seeds were shared in the northern and southern hemispheres, getting at least two growing seasons in per year.  Second generation seeds segregate for parental traits and the selection begins. 

During the selection process, we planted out received seeds, say 1-2 dozen and it quickly becamse apparent which picked up the dwarf trait.  They were half the size of the other seedlings.  These were kept and grown out searching for something worthy, the other's culled.   

Fast forward and there are about 100 dwarf varieties that were created - big, flavorful heirloom quality in a manageable grow-in-a-pot tomato plant.  These were shared with small scale seed companies and have become widely available now.

So the selection process left me wondering about mangoes.  I know the genes are different (heterozygous vs. homozygous) and but paradoxically, selection might be faster with grafting onto already mature trees.  I have an ultra low branching Julie seedling in my yard and I'm curious, what % of Julie seedlings carry the dwarf 9or slow growing) trait.

And what % of those would provide an interesting improvement on Julie?

Cuttings from the dwarf reverse grafted onto an already mature tree would tell within a few seasons...

https://www.dwarftomatoproject.net/about/

Footnote I contributed to Dwarf Kangaroo Paw

If you do your research you know it a monoembryonic seed so so all of seeds are going to be different from the Julie mango tree .
You need find a polyembryonic seeds because only one be different genetically and all other be clones of the mother pant.
I being experiment with toledo mango slow growing tree with polyembryonic seed

[Nyuu]

The thing you could do try making a new hybrid using the Julie mango as mother plant and look for another mango with polyembryonic seed and with characteristics looking for . only true dwarf Julie mango by my knowledge .
So I looking into slow growing mango tree with polyembryonic seed as father plant so new hybrid a higher chance of being polyembryonic .
it will be a very long project taking years and land .
The best can be done right now as far I know use slow growing varieties as a rootstock

[fliptop]

Very cool, Future! Do you have photos of the Julie seedling? I've planted quite a few seeds of different mangos. I suck at math so couldn't provide statistics, but I'd guess at least 60% of my Pickering seedlings grow slower and more bushier.

Here's one from 2017, now at about 55" at its tallest point. I have never trimmed this tree:



Here's a seedling from a different Pickering from 2018. It's grown more vertical (at around 36" tall now) but has thrown out a side branch. It's one I don't consider "dwarf". I have not trimmed this one either:



Here's a short one from 2018. It came from a seed from the same tree as the other 2018 Pickering seedling. I did trim off two side branches that were too vertical for my liking. Since going in the ground a few months ago, it's put out little branches from its base. It's not even 17" tall:

[Nyuu]

Very cool, Future! Do you have photos of the Julie seedling? I've planted quite a few seeds of different mangos. I suck at math so couldn't provide statistics, but I'd guess at least 60% of my Pickering seedlings grow slower and more bushier.

Here's one from 2017, now at about 55" at its tallest point. I have never trimmed this tree:



Here's a seedling from a different Pickering from 2018. It's grown more vertical (at around 36" tall now) but has thrown out a side branch. It's one I don't consider "dwarf". I have not trimmed this one either:



Here's a short one from 2018. It came from a seed from the same tree as the other 2018 Pickering seedling. I did trim off two side branches that were too vertical for my liking. Since going in the ground a few months ago, it's put out little branches from its base. It's not even 17" tall:

Truly tropical 20-year-old Julie tree https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9MtImh2sbKM

[JakeFruit]

Dang it Future! Heritage Seed Market just sold me a bunch of dwarf heritage tomato seeds thanks to you 

[Nyuu]

Yeah that's the nice thing about tomatoes and peppers make new hybrids pretty fast  about 9th generation maybe a little bit more a little bit less to make them stable .

[Future]

What you did with the tomatoes is interesting. I'm sure it would work with mangoes but would take a longer time.

Thanks Jabo. Time wise, yes and no.  With tomatoes we are looking for stable seeds and their genetics allow that with succeessive plantings (about 9 generations).  With mangoes were aren't looking for stability, just dwarfs with #gourmetmango fruits.  This a single generation will do, thanks to grafting. 

Yet the question to be answered, how often do dwarf-ish trees produce dwarfed progeny?  And from them, how many produce interesting fruit (never mind disease resistance, productivity). 

Others have grafted seedling cuttings onto mature trees and gotten flowers within 2 years under good conditions.  That's a lot faster than 4-5 years growing out twice per year to get a tomato to F9.  But its also a lot longer to wait for a fruit.  At least with tomato, you can have a general sense within say 4 months if its taste holds any promise.

As for my Julie seedling, it's a year old, less than a foot tall and has 5 branches.  Odd seeing such a small tree sporting branches and full sized leaves....

[Future]

Very cool, Future! Do you have photos of the Julie seedling? I've planted quite a few seeds of different mangos. I suck at math so couldn't provide statistics, but I'd guess at least 60% of my Pickering seedlings grow slower and more bushier.

Here's one from 2017, now at about 55" at its tallest point. I have never trimmed this tree:



Here's a seedling from a different Pickering from 2018. It's grown more vertical (at around 36" tall now) but has thrown out a side branch. It's one I don't consider "dwarf". I have not trimmed this one either:



Here's a short one from 2018. It came from a seed from the same tree as the other 2018 Pickering seedling. I did trim off two side branches that were too vertical for my liking. Since going in the ground a few months ago, it's put out little branches from its base. It's not even 17" tall:

Cool stuff.  I would go ahead and tip the one that hasn't branched.

I have a 5 year old Pickering seedling that is about waist height...

[Future]

Dang it Future! Heritage Seed Market just sold me a bunch of dwarf heritage tomato seeds thanks to you 

Good deal.  Thanks...and to be fair, I was part of at least 100 other volunteers!  But everyone's efforts count.  I worked on about a half dozen varieties, only one of which ended up being up to the standard to release to the public. 

(Kangaroo paw Yellow)

[Nyuu]

What you did with the tomatoes is interesting. I'm sure it would work with mangoes but would take a longer time.

Thanks Jabo. Time wise, yes and no.  With tomatoes we are looking for stable seeds and their genetics allow that with succeessive plantings (about 9 generations).  With mangoes were aren't looking for stability, just dwarfs with #gourmetmango fruits.  This a single generation will do, thanks to grafting. 

Yet the question to be answered, how often do dwarf-ish trees produce dwarfed progeny?  And from them, how many produce interesting fruit (never mind disease resistance, productivity). 

Others have grafted seedling cuttings onto mature trees and gotten flowers within 2 years under good conditions.  That's a lot faster than 4-5 years growing out twice per year to get a tomato to F9.  But its also a lot longer to wait for a fruit.  At least with tomato, you can have a general sense within say 4 months if its taste holds any promise.

As for my Julie seedling, it's a year old, less than a foot tall and has 5 branches.  Odd seeing such a small tree sporting branches and full sized leaves....

Issue with Pickering mango seed is at it monoembryonic seed so there never be stable you need find a polyembryonic seed a stable rootstock

[Ulfr]

Issue with Pickering mango seed is at it monoembryonic seed so there never be stable you need find a polyembryonic seed a stable rootstock

That is the idea though. You need variation to find something new. Once you find it grafting gives you the ability to propagate, no need for ‘stability’.

Good luck I don’t know how many seeds you’ll need to plant to find something worthwhile but interesting project.

[simon_grow]

Awesome project future! Not sure if you’ve seen this old thread I started? Many of the links are now broken but I just updated it with a newer link on the last post.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0

There are certain rootstocks that can contribute to smaller overall size of trees and increase yields but overall affect is highly dependent on the specific Rootstock and Scion. A rootstock that dwarfs variety A may not dwarf variety B.

Simon

[Future]

Issue with Pickering mango seed is at it monoembryonic seed so there never be stable you need find a polyembryonic seed a stable rootstock

That is the idea though. You need variation to find something new. Once you find it grafting gives you the ability to propagate, no need for ‘stability’.

Good luck I don’t know how many seeds you’ll need to plant to find something worthwhile but interesting project.

Thanks. You are correct, we are looking for off types, not clones.  Simon’s idea on certain rootstocks is another valid way.  It reminds me: Gary Zill may have found the dwarfing rootstock holy grail: a vigorous seedling that dwarfs things grafted on to it.  This gets around the typical problem with dwarf rootstocks - the rootstock itself grows so slow it takes a long time to get grafting material.  As for what variety Gary found doing this trick...

[TonyinCC]

I would almost expect the Zills have a special rootstock for mango trees they produce, after all their nursery is called Zill's high performance Plants...

[Nyuu]

Issue with Pickering mango seed is at it monoembryonic seed so there never be stable you need find a polyembryonic seed a stable rootstock

That is the idea though. You need variation to find something new. Once you find it grafting gives you the ability to propagate, no need for ‘stability’.

Good luck I don’t know how many seeds you’ll need to plant to find something worthwhile but interesting project.

If you're planning to use this rootstock you need to be stable
If not stable you can never guarantee it's going to be a dwarf

[Nyuu]

Pickering mango as a mother pant but you hopefully end up with polyembryonic hybrid

[Ulfr]

Issue with Pickering mango seed is at it monoembryonic seed so there never be stable you need find a polyembryonic seed a stable rootstock

That is the idea though. You need variation to find something new. Once you find it grafting gives you the ability to propagate, no need for ‘stability’.

Good luck I don’t know how many seeds you’ll need to plant to find something worthwhile but interesting project.

If you're planning to use this rootstock you need to be stable
If not stable you can never guarantee it's going to be a dwarf

Future is talking about a dwarf cultivar not rootstock. Scion can provide the dwarfing characteristic, you don’t need a dwarf rootstock.

[skhan]

Nice project idea.

I'm actually doing the same thing with Neelam seeds. Instead of dwarf I'm looking for late season characteristics.
I have a few that have an indochinese sap smell. I'm going for a CAC cross

[Nyuu]

If is purpose just to make a new dwarf variety mango doesn't matter if the hybrid is monoembryonic or polyembryon .

[Nyuu]

Issue with Pickering mango seed is at it monoembryonic seed so there never be stable you need find a polyembryonic seed a stable rootstock

That is the idea though. You need variation to find something new. Once you find it grafting gives you the ability to propagate, no need for ‘stability’.

Good luck I don’t know how many seeds you’ll need to plant to find something worthwhile but interesting project.

If you're planning to use this rootstock you need to be stable
If not stable you can never guarantee it's going to be a dwarf

Future is talking about a dwarf cultivar not rootstock. Scion can provide the dwarfing characteristic, you don’t need a dwarf rootstock.

Yeah I kind of figured that's what he was going for after . I thinking about making a dwarfing rootstock so you dwarf existing cultivars I think would have been more beneficial in the future for Grove/residentials

[lebmung]

Check my FB page and you can see my dwarf mangoes in 3 gallon pots with fruits.
There are several techniques that you can use to dwarf any mango tree.

[Future]

It would be great to replicate Fairchild’s netting approach (to cross Mangifera indica with other mangiferas) to deliberately cross prime varieties with say Julie as the mother tree.  How many seeds to find a dwarf that’s tasty, who knows. Maybe the crushed leaf smell test and grafting seedling onto a mature tree is the express path. Better than searching among 10,000 seedlings...

[Nyuu]

I had a question about polyembryonic mango seeding is a good way to figure out which one it's not the clone / genetically different from the mother plant ?
And can leaf smell test accurate enough to be able to identify a different and best stage of the leaf test to tell the difference ?