Author Topic: Multi species plant fusion  (Read 4875 times)

goosteen

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Multi species plant fusion
« on: January 04, 2015, 01:03:59 AM »
Anyone tried this? 

Growing 2 different species together to see if they exchange any properties?   Mostly to see if a cold tolerant species would share that trait with a tropical

"A natural graft between a birch (left) and an oak (right). Sexually incompatible species can exchange chloroplast genomes at graft sites."

http://www.mpg.de/5010542/genetic_information_plants

However I'm still a bit confused by what they mean.... even if the trees fuse together, they may be talking about creating a new plant from a tissue sample taking from the fusion spot....  Maybe someone who is more science literate than me will be able to figure it out.




shaneatwell

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2015, 04:30:44 PM »
I believe the same group later determined that there's actually fusion of nuclear DNA as well.

http://phys.org/news/2014-06-species-sex.html

This has huge potential for probably every plant characteristic. My reading of the paper is that they needed to genetically engineer the parent plants first in order to isolate the fusion progeny from cell culture. That's hard. I guess you could just propagate lots of tiny tissue samples from unengineered, grafted parents and try to isolate a fused one that way. I think I'll set up a cell culture lab in the next couple years to try experiments like this.


Shane

siafu

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2015, 04:31:56 PM »
Hi,

This reminds me of protoplast fusion, a technique that can create hybrids of plants
that otherwise would not cross.
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jcaldeira

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2015, 04:57:06 PM »
Multi species plant fusion, when purposely done, is genetic engineering.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 05:02:07 PM by jcaldeira »
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shaneatwell

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2015, 11:47:45 PM »
The conclusion of their latest work is that grafting, a purposeful activity, creates fusions. I.e. grafting is a form of genetic engineering. But I don't think that aspect was purposeful.
Shane

goosteen

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2015, 12:12:12 AM »
I believe the same group later determined that there's actually fusion of nuclear DNA as well.

http://phys.org/news/2014-06-species-sex.html

This has huge potential for probably every plant characteristic. My reading of the paper is that they needed to genetically engineer the parent plants first in order to isolate the fusion progeny from cell culture. That's hard. I guess you could just propagate lots of tiny tissue samples from unengineered, grafted parents and try to isolate a fused one that way. I think I'll set up a cell culture lab in the next couple years to try experiments like this.

If you create a cold hardy durian, it will be worth it. 

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2015, 12:37:38 AM »
Hi,

This reminds me of protoplast fusion, a technique that can create hybrids of plants
that otherwise would not cross.

The way I read these articles, it sounds like what they are reporting in both cases is likely to be a naturally occurring protoplast fusion. Interesting and well done science, but not an altogether unexpected result.

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Pancrazio

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2015, 09:14:34 PM »
Well, from another point of view the interesting fact is that when you introduce some gene in a plant and you create a GMO, you can only HOPE that the new genes will remain there; apparently the start moving around in the biosphere, at least in Plantae kingdom.

If this happens with species so different like a birch and an oak, I wonder what can happen in a chimera. Probably the genetic transfer is more intense, but less dramatic since only very close plants can generate a chimera, so even its usefulness can be questioned.
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greenman62

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2015, 04:40:11 PM »
im wondering if this wold work as easy
or, perhaps even easier, with 2 similar species ?

It would be nice to have a cold-hardy papaya.

lots of people have tried cross pollination with papaya relatives
there was some work at a few universities, but, the papaya ringspot virus took center stage
when it comes to genetic manipulation.

i had 2 papaya growing out of the same hole once.
they were entangled pretty good.
i thought for sure they would grow together
but after they got 3ft tall, i just killed one
to  give the other a chance to produce fruit.

i might have to throw some seeds together to see what happens

fruitlovers

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2015, 05:36:50 PM »
im wondering if this wold work as easy
or, perhaps even easier, with 2 similar species ?

It would be nice to have a cold-hardy papaya.

lots of people have tried cross pollination with papaya relatives
there was some work at a few universities, but, the papaya ringspot virus took center stage
when it comes to genetic manipulation.

i had 2 papaya growing out of the same hole once.
they were entangled pretty good.
i thought for sure they would grow together
but after they got 3ft tall, i just killed one
to  give the other a chance to produce fruit.

i might have to throw some seeds together to see what happens
Truth is 99.99% of crop improvements have been accomplished through selective breeding and selection in nature and of hybrids. Even ringspot virus could have been controlled through hybridization. There have been crosses made with vasconcella that are resistant to ring spot, so even there genetic maniupualation was not at all necessary. So far GMO's are only focus of attention because they are patentable and make corporations huge amounts of money and allow them to monopolize the markets, a la Monsanto.
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fyliu

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2015, 03:03:32 AM »
I'm not understanding the significance of this discovery in advancing fruiting plants.
It's saying gene exchange could occur if you plant something like a fig and a papaya together. It's not saying it will definitely occur and nothing about the speed at which it will occur.

My mother always thinks if I graft a sweet orange onto a lemon I'll get sour oranges. I think that's just wishful thinking. What would be the point of grafting if that's true?

fruitlovers

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2015, 11:14:19 PM »
I'm not understanding the significance of this discovery in advancing fruiting plants.
It's saying gene exchange could occur if you plant something like a fig and a papaya together. It's not saying it will definitely occur and nothing about the speed at which it will occur.

My mother always thinks if I graft a sweet orange onto a lemon I'll get sour oranges. I think that's just wishful thinking. What would be the point of grafting if that's true?

Tell your mother that if you graft some ice cubes onto a lemon tree you will also get lemonade.  ;)
Oscar

siafu

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2015, 04:37:37 AM »
I'm not understanding the significance of this discovery in advancing fruiting plants.
It's saying gene exchange could occur if you plant something like a fig and a papaya together. It's not saying it will definitely occur and nothing about the speed at which it will occur.

My mother always thinks if I graft a sweet orange onto a lemon I'll get sour oranges. I think that's just wishful thinking. What would be the point of grafting if that's true?

Tell your mother that if you graft some ice cubes onto a lemon tree you will also get lemonade.  ;)

Don't be silly Oscar, you can graft ice cubes. Besides, everyone knows that one grafts a lemon to an ice plant to get lemonade.
Sérgio Duarte
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shaneatwell

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2015, 11:34:09 AM »
So far GMO's are only focus of attention because they are patentable and make corporations huge amounts of money and allow them to monopolize the markets, a la Monsanto.

I don't get why its a bad thing to make huge amounts of money. I've never read anyone saying that its a good thing the plant breeders DON'T make huge amounts of money. Nor are GMOs uniquely patentable. Traditionally bred new varieties are also patentable. GMO patents are just easier to enforce. Plus they do things that traditional methods don't.

Which brings me back to the topic at hand.

I'm not understanding the significance of this discovery in advancing fruiting plants.
It's saying gene exchange could occur if you plant something like a fig and a papaya together. It's not saying it will definitely occur and nothing about the speed at which it will occur.

My mother always thinks if I graft a sweet orange onto a lemon I'll get sour oranges. I think that's just wishful thinking. What would be the point of grafting if that's true?

I think you're confused. The papers are not claiming that if you graft two plants (or allow them to grow together and inosculate) then one of them will become a hybrid or bear hybrid fruit. The papers are saying that there are some individual cells or a sliver of tissue at the graft site that becomes hybrid or fused or exchanges genetic material in some way. When that tissue is cut out and propagated by cell culture techniques it can be an entirely new fusion species.

The significance is that its a new technique for getting plants with mixed genetic material. Traditionally natural crosses, new variants, were discovered in the wild or garden. This was enhanced with isolation, hand polination etc. But still limited to crosses between compatible plants and species. Recently this has been extended with cell culture techniques that can for example rescue a fertilized embryo that wouldn't otherwise grow into a plant because of some growth incompatibility of the parents. (There are other techniques too, like playing with polyploidy to establish compatibility between species that otherwise aren't. And probably many other techniques I'm ignorant of.)

This new result supplies a method of generating "crosses" of possibly any two plants that are graft compatible. And since graft compatibility is much much broader than fertilization compatibility, the potential for new crosses is tremendously increased. Its as if they discovered a new method of cross pollinating plants. Imagine being able to cross species across a whole family, like we already do with the citrus genus (a narrower band taxonomically). Imaging generating crosses between apples, pears, quinces, loquats and hawthorn. Or across the stonefruits even more so than already. And of course what's already been mentioned, i.e. crossing for hardiness or disease resistance, e.g. papaya with babaco. Or how about some giant sequoia crosses? Its known to rootgraft with other species.

I think the potential is amazing.
Shane

fyliu

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2015, 06:36:13 PM »
Right. I get what you explained. I was using the grafting example to say it's not the same. I think this topic was discussed recently in another thread or elsewhere on the web.

I'm questioning the usefulness of it because there are hard obstacles
1. Identifying changed cells. Fusion time required for a good amount of genetic crossing over to occur.
2. Time and space to grow out and evaluate fruit quality.
3. There's no knowing what percentage would turn out good, if any. I consider 1% to be very good. I think it's a good success rate for traditional crossing and growing seedlings.

Only governments and large corporations would have the resources to do this. We'd end up with Monsanto again.

The last point of lowering genetic crossing to graft compatibility is interesting. I did not know birch and oak were compatible. I thought they were more distant. Now this part makes sense.

So what we need is someone to start a lab for breeders to send cambium/bark samples to and make plants from say 100 cells along the fusion line and send the plantlets back to the grower.

shaneatwell

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 01:21:26 PM »
Its going to be hard, but so are a lot of normal breeding programs.

Regarding it being done only by governments and large corporations...I'm not sure. There's a lot of garage plant cell culture experimentation out there already.

P.S. I don't know anything about birch and oak. They're not in the same family but I did see some pictures of inosculation online. http://wildobs.com/KIPTOPEKE/10748-Inosculation
Shane

fyliu

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Re: Multi species plant fusion
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 03:40:50 AM »
I guess so. They're creating ways to identify certain traits from DNA. The seedless cherimoya they're working on in Spain is a good example. They can just discard all the seedlings whose cells don't have a copy of the specific mutation they're looking for. I guess they can do that with cultured embryos from graft unions as well.