Just in, a woody (lignified) Lemon Zest - am anxious about SEVERE topping

[Mark in Texas]

Just in, a beautiful 6' Lemon Zest from Plantagram. The graft is sitting about 6" above ground and I want to take the entire tree down to about 1' for initial training.  Since I'm not real familiar with the dormant bud structure along a LIGNIFIED mango trunk, do you think I will screw up a good tree by topping it from 6' down to 1'?  The trunk girth is about 1.25".  I've done this with a Mallika resulting in a fine looking, short well branched tree that is blooming big time now.

Here's a shot after I just unpacked it.  Top was so tall Mike broke it to get it in the 5' box.

[cbss_daviefl]

Do what you feel you need to do and don't look back!  I have started cutting back a monster 35ft glenn in my back yard, trying to get it below 20ft.  I cut a quarter of the canopy out last summer.  New growth is sprouting out of areas that have not been green in over a decade. 

[Lory]

As for i know mango as quite indulgent about pruning.
According to my experience drastic pruning will induce strong vegetative flush in a healthy tree

[Mark in Texas]

New growth is sprouting out of areas that have not been green in over a decade.

That speaks volumes.  Butcher time it is.

[wslau]

Mark,

Cutting it back to 1ft this time of the year should be okay, but late summer would have been a more ideal time.  If you leave it in the pot, you probably should also limit/restrict it's watering, to prevent root rot.  Nevertheless, LZ is a vigorous grower and should recover and grow quickly.  Good luck!

[zands]

I topped off a Fairchild mango at 18". Had a trunk a little thicker than yours and it all worked out fine. Topping at 12" ....sure you can do it but why not raise it a bit to 15"-18"? My tree was in the ground.

Mango trees love to grow back. I have cut some non-grafted ones with 1-2" thick trunks down to 6" height and they bounced back

[bsbullie]

Cut it back to between 3-4 feet.  Severe cutting to below 2 feet is not recommended.   I have beat this dead horse subject msny times.  I say ut for a reason, a reason that is more long term than shirt term.  Most supporters who s a y cut ut to 12 inches or so cause they did it and the plant survived hsve no idea tge effects it will have when the tree approacges 10 or 20 years of age.  Then people say they will just rip ut out and plant a new one.  Really...??   

[murahilin]

Cut it back to between 3-4 feet.  Severe cutting to below 2 feet is not recommended.   I have beat this dead horse subject msny times.  I say ut for a reason, a reason that is more long term than shirt term.  Most supporters who s a y cut ut to 12 inches or so cause they did it and the plant survived hsve no idea tge effects it will have when the tree approacges 10 or 20 years of age.  Then people say they will just rip ut out and plant a new one.  Really...??   

Rob, I disagree. I think in his situation 1 ft would be fine. It's being grown in a greenhouse so he needs to branching lower, and as the greenhouse mango growers in Japan do it, he can overcome the issues of a low branching tree as well.

Here is a link with some low branching greenhouse grown mango trees: http://www.itfnet.org/v1/2013/07/the-unique-mango-trees-of-japan%E2%80%99s-ishigaki-island/

[DimplesLee]

In ground open air
http://www.zacsarian.com/they-grow-their-mangoes-very-low-in-pingtung-taiwan/

I think they spray heavily though aside from.bagging

[Cookie Monster]

It's a matter of preference. For yard planting in frost free areas, branching higher is nice, as it allows one to walk beneath their trees. My personal preference is to branch my mangoes at a height of roughly 4 feet, which allows me to have the yard covered in trees but without losing the ability to utilize the space. Keeping total tree height to about 15 feet gives a good amount of producing canopy which is also low enough to harvest easily with a cut and hold pruner.

Low branching is not necessarily a problem with fungal infection, as the producing part of the canopy will still be 10+ feet up in just a few years, leaving only bark in the lower sections as the lower canopy is shaded out. My bigger keitt mango tree, which is probably 30+ years old, has a gigantic (> 1 foot thick in diameter) branch that is about a foot off the ground. It makes a convenient bench :-).

[Cookie Monster]

PS -- good luck keeping your lemon zest small :-). Pruning is near futile for the tree. It's not uncommon for LZ to resist attempts to keep it small -- sabotaging pruning efforts by sending up single vertical and vigorous shoots in response to a cut.

[bsbullie]

Cut it back to between 3-4 feet.  Severe cutting to below 2 feet is not recommended.   I have beat this dead horse subject msny times.  I say ut for a reason, a reason that is more long term than shirt term.  Most supporters who s a y cut ut to 12 inches or so cause they did it and the plant survived hsve no idea tge effects it will have when the tree approacges 10 or 20 years of age.  Then people say they will just rip ut out and plant a new one.  Really...??   

Rob, I disagree. I think in his situation 1 ft would be fine. It's being grown in a greenhouse so he needs to branching lower, and as the greenhouse mango growers in Japan do it, he can overcome the issues of a low branching tree as well.

Here is a link with some low branching greenhouse grown mango trees: http://www.itfnet.org/v1/2013/07/the-unique-mango-trees-of-japan%E2%80%99s-ishigaki-island/

Come on now, you can be more original than that since you already pisted that and i already responded to it.  Yes, everyone is as skilled as those in Japan who grow them in greenhouses.  Oh, and since in general greenhouses that are properly maintained tend to be humid with relatively poor circulation,  even more supports my opinion.

[bsbullie]

It's a matter of preference. For yard planting in frost free areas, branching higher is nice, as it allows one to walk beneath their trees. My personal preference is to branch my mangoes at a height of roughly 4 feet, which allows me to have the yard covered in trees but without losing the ability to utilize the space. Keeping total tree height to about 15 feet gives a good amount of producing canopy which is also low enough to harvest easily with a cut and hold pruner.

Low branching is not necessarily a problem with fungal infection, as the producing part of the canopy will still be 10+ feet up in just a few years, leaving only bark in the lower sections as the lower canopy is shaded out. My bigger keitt mango tree, which is probably 30+ years old, has a gigantic (> 1 foot thick in diameter) branch that is about a foot off the ground. It makes a convenient bench :-).

on your Keitt, at what height does the actual foliage start?

[bsbullie]

Ok, I will succumb to the peer pressure...everyone should cut their mango trees b ack to 12 inches.  Oh, be sure to let us know how that works out for everyone as the tree matures.

[simon_grow]

It's a matter of preference. For yard planting in frost free areas, branching higher is nice, as it allows one to walk beneath their trees. My personal preference is to branch my mangoes at a height of roughly 4 feet, which allows me to have the yard covered in trees but without losing the ability to utilize the space. Keeping total tree height to about 15 feet gives a good amount of producing canopy which is also low enough to harvest easily with a cut and hold pruner.

Low branching is not necessarily a problem with fungal infection, as the producing part of the canopy will still be 10+ feet up in just a few years, leaving only bark in the lower sections as the lower canopy is shaded out. My bigger keitt mango tree, which is probably 30+ years old, has a gigantic (> 1 foot thick in diameter) branch that is about a foot off the ground. It makes a convenient bench :-).

Cookie Monster, that is a good point. Although I prefer to have my branching on the lower end of the scale, low scaffold branches will take up some ground clearance making it slightly more difficult to weed and fertilize within the drop zone of the tree.

Mark, Lemon Zest is well worth the effort to try and fruit it inside a greenhouse. The fruit is just amazing. I still remember the amazingly sweet and refreshing citrus flavor of the First LZ I ever ate. Please let us know how your tree performs.

As for pruning your tree I would prune near the distal terminus of the first intercalation above the graft line so that you will get two to four more evenly spaced scaffold branches. See this excellent pruning article that another forum member posted. http://www.growables.org/information/documents/MangoPruningStrategies.pdf

I made the mistake of topping an Alphonso mango tree immediately above an intercalation and got about 10 thin branches that were very close to each other. I am shooting for 2-4 main scaffold branches for my trees.

Simon

[merce3]

Cutting low shouldn't be a problem as long as the foliage is up off the ground by 3-4 feet, right Rob?

[Mark in Texas]

Rob, I disagree. I think in his situation 1 ft would be fine. It's being grown in a greenhouse so he needs to branching lower, and as the greenhouse mango growers in Japan do it, he can overcome the issues of a low branching tree as well.

That's exactly right.  I know I'm not in tropical Florida so I won't get the vigor you guys do but I start in a 16" bottomless pot to begin with.  My headspace is about 12-14' where it's going.  I severely topped a Mallika twice & look at this nice scaffold consisting of 3 branches beginning about 8" above the ground.

Closeup of the low scaffold branches:



Full view yesterday showing start of flowering and typical pot I use:



I think my best approach is to plant it now & then top it down low when the new foliar flush starts pushing in a month or two.  IOW, for the best vigor and health I need to concentrate on establishing a good root system first.  If mangos are like other trees a root flush coincides with foliar output.

Thanks for your input!

[Mark in Texas]

In ground open air
http://www.zacsarian.com/they-grow-their-mangoes-very-low-in-pingtung-taiwan/

I think they spray heavily though aside from.bagging

Wow!

[Mark in Texas]

PS -- good luck keeping your lemon zest small :-). Pruning is near futile for the tree. It's not uncommon for LZ to resist attempts to keep it small -- sabotaging pruning efforts by sending up single vertical and vigorous shoots in response to a cut.

I understand but keep in mind my tropical growing season pretty much shuts down from November thru March, PLUS and this is very big plus, I plan on treating it with a PGR to shorten internodes, decrease vigor, and increase production.

Thanks to all for your input!

 

[Mark in Texas]

As for pruning your tree I would prune near the distal terminus of the first intercalation above the graft line so that you will get two to four more evenly spaced scaffold branches. See this excellent pruning article that another forum member posted. http://www.growables.org/information/documents/MangoPruningStrategies.pdf

I made the mistake of topping an Alphonso mango tree immediately above an intercalation and got about 10 thin branches that were very close to each other. I am shooting for 2-4 main scaffold branches for my trees.

Simon

Great article and advice albeit pretty damn scientific and precise!  (That's a good thing). That 2-4 branches on the Mallika is what I got. Question, I'm not familiar with the term "intercalation".  Is that the same thing as "internode"?  I had planned on topping just below the first node above the graft union.

As an aside I've topped like this on some avocados and got a really crappy profile with no central leader and lateral branches off into the next county.  Just destroyed the structure.  A Gwen is finally sending off a few internal branches.  Sharwil looks like hell.

[phantomcrab]

Here are pictures of cut mango stumps in a neighborhood yard. The chopped stumps are flushing out OK. All the trees were the same size before cutting.

I had planned on topping just below the first node above the graft union.

Don't do this! If you cut below the first node above the graft of the LZ scion, the stock will be all that is left to regrow.


Chopped Mangos
Unchopped Mangos in the same yard

[phantomcrab]

Angie, cut down to 15 inches last year at planting

Mahachanok, cut down to 15-18 inches 5 years ago

There is plenty of ground clearance under the MC without the additional 2 feet of tree trunk. I have no disease problems either.

[Mark in Texas]

Here are pictures of cut mango stumps in a neighborhood yard. The chopped stumps are flushing out OK. All the trees were the same size before cutting.

I had planned on topping just below the first node above the graft union.

Don't do this! If you cut below the first node above the graft of the LZ scion, the stock will be all that is left to regrow.


Chopped Mangos

OK. I'll cut above the first node.  I can always come back and clean it up which it what I did with the Mallika.  I topped hard and based on the output topped hard again, about 16" lower if memory serves me correct.

BTW, those are gorgeous trees!

[Cookie Monster]

It's a matter of preference. For yard planting in frost free areas, branching higher is nice, as it allows one to walk beneath their trees. My personal preference is to branch my mangoes at a height of roughly 4 feet, which allows me to have the yard covered in trees but without losing the ability to utilize the space. Keeping total tree height to about 15 feet gives a good amount of producing canopy which is also low enough to harvest easily with a cut and hold pruner.

Low branching is not necessarily a problem with fungal infection, as the producing part of the canopy will still be 10+ feet up in just a few years, leaving only bark in the lower sections as the lower canopy is shaded out. My bigger keitt mango tree, which is probably 30+ years old, has a gigantic (> 1 foot thick in diameter) branch that is about a foot off the ground. It makes a convenient bench :-).

on your Keitt, at what height does the actual foliage start?

Like 10 feet from the ground -- and only that low because I've pruned it.

[bsbullie]

It's a matter of preference. For yard planting in frost free areas, branching higher is nice, as it allows one to walk beneath their trees. My personal preference is to branch my mangoes at a height of roughly 4 feet, which allows me to have the yard covered in trees but without losing the ability to utilize the space. Keeping total tree height to about 15 feet gives a good amount of producing canopy which is also low enough to harvest easily with a cut and hold pruner.

Low branching is not necessarily a problem with fungal infection, as the producing part of the canopy will still be 10+ feet up in just a few years, leaving only bark in the lower sections as the lower canopy is shaded out. My bigger keitt mango tree, which is probably 30+ years old, has a gigantic (> 1 foot thick in diameter) branch that is about a foot off the ground. It makes a convenient bench :-).

on your Keitt, at what height does the actual foliage start?

Exactly,  which allows for good airflow. 

To those who think i am focusing on foliage issues, poor airflow effect clean and quality fruit development.   Also, when the foliage and blooms hang too low, the fruit will hang near or at times on the ground.  This c an lead to poor development and food for vermin.

To all, it matters not to me whether you believe or listen to me.  I am just trying to provide assistance based on actual knowledge and experience.  Choice is solely up to you...
Like 10 feet from the ground -- and only that low because I've pruned it.