The Tropical Fruit Forum

Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: franklazar26 on October 29, 2019, 09:02:22 PM

Title: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: franklazar26 on October 29, 2019, 09:02:22 PM
I'm sprouting a ton of flying dragon and I would like to know the true hardiness of the tree itself? I have seen sites say that it is hardy even down to zone 4 of parts of Canada! I'm currently in zone 5A and would love to eventually plant one in the ground, or even just not worry and let it thrive in pots on the patio. Again I've been told different things by all over, some say zone 6 is the lowest, others say 5A, and a few found say 4B. Also, I haven't found an answer to this question either: being indoor in pots they dont actually molt their leaves.. will they still fruit or does flowering only precede a stage of leaf growth via spring?
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Bomand on October 29, 2019, 09:39:18 PM
http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/PlantFinder/PlantFinderDetails.aspx?kempercode=e790. (http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/PlantFinder/PlantFinderDetails.aspx?kempercode=e790.) Here is the best info on poncirus. Hope this answers your questions. I would not think poncirus or FD would be hardy in anything above 5 without winter protection. In a container that could be brought inside in winter it will prosper, bloom and fruit with the appropriate care. That means the right medium, the right pot, the right fertilize and water.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Millet on October 29, 2019, 10:15:50 PM
I have tried to grow it through the winter outside in Colorado, at 5,540 ft. elevation without any protection.  I have never been successful.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Citradia on October 29, 2019, 10:35:13 PM
When I planted my first two little poncirus seedlings outside in the yard here in western NC, I was so afraid they would freeze to death! I am originally from FL and although I had seen the poncirus at Biltmore House in Asheville, NC, it was hard for me to believe citrus could live here. When I saw that these two poncirus trees thrived here without protection, I then started planting other forms of citrus and now have tents and frames all over my property to keep them alive. Oh boy, what hobby.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: franklazar26 on October 29, 2019, 10:36:40 PM
Thank you guys for the responses! What zone is that considered with the elevation? I am considered 5A so I mean I could potentially try it, although with the past few years it has gotten down to -40F for a few days in a row. Usually never gets below -25F on regular winters. So would you recommend that I leave it outdoors till it sheds its leaves and then take it in? Considering I have everything else adequate (if you dont mind explaining what youd deem as adequate?) Or will keeping it evergreen not be a bad thing for the plant?
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Bomand on October 30, 2019, 04:36:54 AM
Poncirus is decidous. I would keep it outside till it starts to get yellow leaves and then move it to a winter home. By adequate cold protection I mean a darkened garage that does not get to freezing temps. Poncirus will not pop out from its winter sleep at the first sign of warmer weather. So I would move it out on days that I had good sunlight. I have never kept poncirus inside. Zone 9 for me. I only have limes in pots all else is in the ground. You are pretty cold. I hope someone that is closer to your zone and has some experience with poncirus overwintering will respond.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Ilya11 on October 30, 2019, 05:13:13 AM
FD is a zone 6 plant, it will be severely damaged after few hours at -12F(-24C)
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: lebmung on October 30, 2019, 06:58:46 AM
FD is a zone 6 plant, it will be severely damaged after few hours at -12F(-24C)

Mature 5m high, 40+ years PT survived here at -30C during the nights with no protection.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Ilya11 on October 30, 2019, 09:23:18 AM
 I have seen photos of poncirus experienced  such temperatures in Kislovodsk, Russia.
Survived, but  highly damaged.
If it happens two winters in a row any poncirus   will certainly be dead.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: franklazar26 on October 30, 2019, 09:50:50 AM
Alright awesome, I wont plant outside because it on average gets below -22F for a few days straight in January (-30C). I will stick to pots and let the trees molt and bring inside starting next year. Thank you everyone.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: brian on October 30, 2019, 12:55:25 PM
There is a large flying dragon tree in Longwood Gardens in Kennett Square, PA, which is right on the border of zones 7a/6b where 0F/-18C is likely.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Walt on October 30, 2019, 02:08:31 PM
I am in xone 6, but quite near zone 5.  I have 50+ P. trifoliata in the ground.  Some are 6 winters in the ground.  I get some twig die back nearly every year, but it is not more than a few inches.  And it is never one more than half the trees.  Most have no die back, ever.  These have no protection from Kansas winds.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: brian on October 30, 2019, 02:17:30 PM
great data point, thank you
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Vlad on October 30, 2019, 03:09:19 PM
This might be of interest: https://www.arboretum.harvard.edu/growing-oranges-boston/ (https://www.arboretum.harvard.edu/growing-oranges-boston/)
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: brian on October 30, 2019, 07:19:36 PM
Hah, the article says "Growing Oranges in Boston" with a nice stock photo of a seedless navel orange

(https://www.arboretum.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/crpDSC_5979-150x150.jpg)


... but the reality is

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4910/45426633444_aff6748beb.jpg)
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Bomand on October 30, 2019, 08:39:24 PM
Lots of folks think poncirus and hybrids are Oranges.........😁
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Millet on October 30, 2019, 08:47:09 PM
So much for Harvard University's citrus knowledge.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: hardyvermont on October 30, 2019, 10:13:57 PM
Poncirus are susceptible to drying out.  Grown in an area that is in the shade and out of the wind in the winter, plants survived where they were damaged or died elsewhere on my property.  Poncirus are understory trees.  I believe they were growing in zone 5a.  There are differences in deciduousness in trees, also younger trees tend to keep their leaves which makes a difference in surviving cold, and there are probably hardier selections. 

Covering with frost cloth for a few winters would reduce sun and wind exposure until trees become more cold tolerant. 

Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Bomand on October 31, 2019, 09:55:01 AM
Poncirus has the ability to adapt to many conditions, soil types, environment and nutrient availability. It has adapted to and will probabaly continue to do so for thosands of years. Look at the maps and see that it is spreading in the wild like California wildfire. As it spreads I believe that at some point we will have wild poncirus in areas of Canada. It is so hardy that cold, hot, fire do not stop its advance. One can hardly kill an established grove of poncirus....Bulldozer will not stop it....roots grow and the plant rejuvenates.....
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Walt on October 31, 2019, 10:14:56 AM
hardyvermont is right about dry conditions hurting or killing Ponciris trees.  Especially young ones with smaller root sptead.  In my early days growing them, I lost many to winter drought.  Now I give trees with 3 or less winters in the ground at least a gallon of water a month if there is no rain or snow.  The don't need much water while dormant, but they do need some.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Ilya11 on October 31, 2019, 10:16:36 AM
Here (http://www.phytoneuron.net/2014Phytoneuron/46PhytoN-Poncirus.pdf) some data on hardiness and geographical distribution of poncirus.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Bomand on October 31, 2019, 11:39:45 AM
Good info llya. I visit groves that are several acres, encompassing their own teritory and marching on to cover more ground.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: usirius on November 07, 2019, 02:51:20 PM
A further important point is the Frostempfimdlichleit of Poncirus after the awakening from the hibernation. In this country poncirus trees have already frozen to -20°C (-5°F) after awakening from hibernation after surviving hard frosts, after frosts with comparatively mild -6°C (21°F) occurred again in early spring. It is therefore important to have a location that offers protection from the winter and early spring sun to prevent premature awakening from hibernation. By the way, the same must also be observed in milder climate zones for sensitive citrus and hybrids!
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Bomand on November 07, 2019, 03:00:49 PM
Not here. I have never see poncirus awaken with just a day or two of warm temps. Other rootstocks yes but poncirus and FDragon take several weeks of warm weather to wake up.....date here in in March. March 15 is when folks plant corn and peas here. One of the things I like about poncirus.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: usirius on November 07, 2019, 03:48:14 PM
Some areas in Central Europe do not have a truly continental climate. After cold periods, warm winds also come to the mainland, and then the so-called "Christmas storm weather" occurs several days or weeks alternating with longer frost periods - possible several times in the winter moths. Also a mixture of warm day temperatures and night frosts is not uncommon in early spring. All these effects can cause you to wake up too early from hibernation.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Millet on November 07, 2019, 03:58:09 PM
I have never seen FD or poncirus hybrids ever come out of dormancy with just a  couple days of warm weather.  It often takes a week or more of warm weather to bring them out of dormancy.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Florian on November 07, 2019, 04:01:04 PM
I have never seen FD or poncirus hybrids ever come out of dormancy with just a  couple days of warm weather.  It often takes a week or more of warm weather to bring them out of dormancy.

Same here. However, this year, snow in May did kill a lot of flowers but that's another story.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Ilya11 on November 07, 2019, 05:48:47 PM
For winter grafting I transfer poncirus plants from the ground to the warm room environment.
It takes almost 2 weeks for them to start vegetation.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: Bomand on November 07, 2019, 06:00:12 PM
Not familiar with that type of climate. I will take your word for it. Seems reasonable to me. Other rootstocks I have seen put new groth out too early and get burned. I have also seen trees do the same. Freak cold snap. The greatest clock is: Here in the South when the pecan trees bud out....there will be no more frost or cold weather.
Title: Re: True hardiness of Flying Dragon
Post by: kumin on November 07, 2019, 06:53:41 PM
Southeastern PA in the US doesn't see much Poncirus damage in the spring. Prunus cultivars often suffer from freeze damage at time of bloom. Last year citranges began growth in the very beginning of May with no new damage at that point. The northern US is entering a period of unusually cold weather at present and I expect all late growth on both Poncirus as well as Poncirus hybrids to be damaged, or destroyed. Our fall was quite moderate until recently. The forecast low temperature for next week is 16 degrees F (-8.8 C). This is no problem in 6-8 weeks, but is a bit harsh this early in the season.