Author Topic: sulpher application  (Read 2595 times)

achetadomestica

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sulpher application
« on: January 09, 2018, 11:38:28 AM »
I recently read several articles that state pine needles and oak leaves actually don't lower the ph of soil?
OK so back to sulpher. How much do you add per tree and how often? I was told a handful every 6 months
but I was hoping to hear from others on their experience. I plan to add only to trees in the ground.

Thanks for feedback



Saltcayman

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 05:18:14 PM »
In my experience, if you add enough mulch it will lower your PH over time and help buffer ph levels over a long period of times. I use primarily casuarina needles and some wood chips.  I also have used garden sulphur and more recently, sul-po-mag.  I usually broadcast in the root zone once or twice per year.  I have brought down PH levels from 8.2 to 6.8 over a six year period in a clay/limestone soil. 

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 05:24:35 PM »
Saltycayman - that's encouraging to hear.

I have soil nearing 8.0 pH myself (sitting on the side of a limestone mountain, essentially).
I read that essentially the only way to lower pH in a meaningful/permanent way was via elemental sulfur. My local farmer's co-op sells 90% elemental sulfur granules in a 50lb bag for I think $20. A good deal in my book.

BTW What are casuarina needles?

achetadomestica-
I can't recall exactly what website I used, but if you Google something like "sulfur application rates" you should find a few resources that show tables with the pounds per square foot required to lower pH by X amount.

You should have your soil tested first, to see how much you actually need to bring it down.


Saltcayman

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 05:34:45 PM »
Good luck!! I think adding mulch will help you a lot!  Really any kind.  Woodchips, bark, pine needles, leaves, shredded paper or cardboard...   
 
Casuarina needles are the "branches" of a Casuarina tree.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuarina

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 06:09:38 PM »
Assuming you're not sitting on marl, sulfur can be extremely effective at dropping pH. Rate depends on your soil type (or more specifically the CEC of your soil) and your starting pH. If you're on typical sand (low CEC) with a pH in the mid to high 7's, you might use a 50 pound bag on a normal 1/4 acre lot, broadcasting across the entire lot. It will take several months for the pH to drop, and the effect will last for a year or two.

Mulch / compost varies in pH based on inputs, but tends more towards neutral to slightly alkaline. In my case, I did a best of both worlds approach. I applied well over a thousand cubic yards of mulch to a 1/3 acre lot through the course of a decade or so, effectively raising the soil by 6 - 9 inches of fully composted muck. The pH was right around neutral, and now I apply sulfur in a regular basis to keep it to the high 5's / low 6's. Since feeder roots live exclusively in this moist, bacteria-rich sliver of topsoil, the fact that the soil beneath is calcareous is irrelevant.

There are some drawbacks to using that much mulch. For one, I need to apply both micronutrients and calcium. The latter are tied up by organic matter, and the former is lacking in most mulch inputs.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 07:16:50 PM »
Great info, Jeff
I had wondered how long sulfur’s effects would last. Unfortunately I guess I had a fairytale idea that it would be permanent. Do you have “free calcium” in the underlying soil?

I’m a bit puzzled that you say you have to add specific inputs even though you have effectively been “sheet mulching” for all this time. What I’ve read (limited, for sure) I thought your type of composting in place was the gold standard for permaculture and required no other inputs (outside of perhaps a major deficiency in the underlying soil).

Or is it that your mulch was one-dimensional, so to speak?

Just trying to get some learnin’ :)

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 11:10:23 PM »
You could potentially get a permanent drop, assuming that you are able to a) remove all calcium carbonate (or salts in the case of high pH caused by salts) and b) mitigate any circumstances that cause the pH to rise (eg, high pH water).

When I started mulching the orchard, I had the same thought -- that I wouldn't need any inputs other than mulch. And I held to that ideal for years, continuously applying mulch at the rate of a few hundred cubic yards per year. But, over the years, I noticed something -- the chlorosis was actually getting worse, and the fruit quality was declining (lower measured brix, poor flesh quality, etc).

After some research and with the help of Har, I figured out what was happening. Organic matter actually locks up some nutrients and makes them less available. For example, if you have too much copper in your soil, the way to correct it is to add organic matter (which then locks up the excess copper). Same applies to many other micronutrients.

However, there is a good side to mulch: it acts as a "storage bin" for nutrients -- like biochar. So, once you apply minor elements, the compost will absorb and slowly release them. Currently, my trees are dark green and beautiful -- even when I don't fertilize them, because the compost has stored the nutrients I laid down.

And for best fruit quality (high brix, firm flesh, etc), you want a calcium to potassium ratio somewhere north of 10 to 1. But unfortunately, compost normally contains ca and k in a ratio closer to 1 to 1. In order to correct this imbalance, you need to add calcium (eg, gypsum) -- which greatly improves fruit quality. (Here's an article explaining this: https://www.highbrixgardens.com/victory-gardens/putting-compost-in-its-place.html)

Great info, Jeff
I had wondered how long sulfur’s effects would last. Unfortunately I guess I had a fairytale idea that it would be permanent. Do you have “free calcium” in the underlying soil?

I’m a bit puzzled that you say you have to add specific inputs even though you have effectively been “sheet mulching” for all this time. What I’ve read (limited, for sure) I thought your type of composting in place was the gold standard for permaculture and required no other inputs (outside of perhaps a major deficiency in the underlying soil).

Or is it that your mulch was one-dimensional, so to speak?

Just trying to get some learnin’ :)
Jeff  :-)

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 10:13:33 AM »
Thanks for the link Jeff :)  I did not realize Compost had so much potassium. Maybe one reason mulch (and compost) work so well on my limestone soil.  :)

"What properties does compost have? This is an important question. Besides providing digested organic matter and microbial activity compost is a potent supplier of potassium and a fair source of Phosphorous. Before using compost ask yourself, Does my soil show a need for additional potassium? If not you may be better to avoid it. Why? Because compost has one glaring deficiency—it is chronically short on calcium and will imbalance the calcium to potassium ratio of soils in short order."

You could potentially get a permanent drop, assuming that you are able to a) remove all calcium carbonate (or salts in the case of high pH caused by salts) and b) mitigate any circumstances that cause the pH to rise (eg, high pH water).

When I started mulching the orchard, I had the same thought -- that I wouldn't need any inputs other than mulch. And I held to that ideal for years, continuously applying mulch at the rate of a few hundred cubic yards per year. But, over the years, I noticed something -- the chlorosis was actually getting worse, and the fruit quality was declining (lower measured brix, poor flesh quality, etc).

After some research and with the help of Har, I figured out what was happening. Organic matter actually locks up some nutrients and makes them less available. For example, if you have too much copper in your soil, the way to correct it is to add organic matter (which then locks up the excess copper). Same applies to many other micronutrients.

However, there is a good side to mulch: it acts as a "storage bin" for nutrients -- like biochar. So, once you apply minor elements, the compost will absorb and slowly release them. Currently, my trees are dark green and beautiful -- even when I don't fertilize them, because the compost has stored the nutrients I laid down.

And for best fruit quality (high brix, firm flesh, etc), you want a calcium to potassium ratio somewhere north of 10 to 1. But unfortunately, compost normally contains ca and k in a ratio closer to 1 to 1. In order to correct this imbalance, you need to add calcium (eg, gypsum) -- which greatly improves fruit quality. (Here's an article explaining this: https://www.highbrixgardens.com/victory-gardens/putting-compost-in-its-place.html)

Great info, Jeff
I had wondered how long sulfur’s effects would last. Unfortunately I guess I had a fairytale idea that it would be permanent. Do you have “free calcium” in the underlying soil?

I’m a bit puzzled that you say you have to add specific inputs even though you have effectively been “sheet mulching” for all this time. What I’ve read (limited, for sure) I thought your type of composting in place was the gold standard for permaculture and required no other inputs (outside of perhaps a major deficiency in the underlying soil).

Or is it that your mulch was one-dimensional, so to speak?

Just trying to get some learnin’ :)

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 01:51:01 PM »
Verrrrry interesting on the potassium. My soil is deficient in K and there aren't a lot of affordable organic sources (greensand is most commonly cited but is expensive).

I need to get crackin' on some compostin'.  (Though i need to look up my calcium test results first)

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 01:52:21 PM »
In my case, the potassium is not excessive. However, phosphorous is crazy high, and the ratio of K to Ca is whacked.

Thanks for the link Jeff :)  I did not realize Compost had so much potassium. Maybe one reason mulch (and compost) work so well on my limestone soil.  :)

"What properties does compost have? This is an important question. Besides providing digested organic matter and microbial activity compost is a potent supplier of potassium and a fair source of Phosphorous. Before using compost ask yourself, Does my soil show a need for additional potassium? If not you may be better to avoid it. Why? Because compost has one glaring deficiency—it is chronically short on calcium and will imbalance the calcium to potassium ratio of soils in short order."

You could potentially get a permanent drop, assuming that you are able to a) remove all calcium carbonate (or salts in the case of high pH caused by salts) and b) mitigate any circumstances that cause the pH to rise (eg, high pH water).

When I started mulching the orchard, I had the same thought -- that I wouldn't need any inputs other than mulch. And I held to that ideal for years, continuously applying mulch at the rate of a few hundred cubic yards per year. But, over the years, I noticed something -- the chlorosis was actually getting worse, and the fruit quality was declining (lower measured brix, poor flesh quality, etc).

After some research and with the help of Har, I figured out what was happening. Organic matter actually locks up some nutrients and makes them less available. For example, if you have too much copper in your soil, the way to correct it is to add organic matter (which then locks up the excess copper). Same applies to many other micronutrients.

However, there is a good side to mulch: it acts as a "storage bin" for nutrients -- like biochar. So, once you apply minor elements, the compost will absorb and slowly release them. Currently, my trees are dark green and beautiful -- even when I don't fertilize them, because the compost has stored the nutrients I laid down.

And for best fruit quality (high brix, firm flesh, etc), you want a calcium to potassium ratio somewhere north of 10 to 1. But unfortunately, compost normally contains ca and k in a ratio closer to 1 to 1. In order to correct this imbalance, you need to add calcium (eg, gypsum) -- which greatly improves fruit quality. (Here's an article explaining this: https://www.highbrixgardens.com/victory-gardens/putting-compost-in-its-place.html)

Great info, Jeff
I had wondered how long sulfur’s effects would last. Unfortunately I guess I had a fairytale idea that it would be permanent. Do you have “free calcium” in the underlying soil?

I’m a bit puzzled that you say you have to add specific inputs even though you have effectively been “sheet mulching” for all this time. What I’ve read (limited, for sure) I thought your type of composting in place was the gold standard for permaculture and required no other inputs (outside of perhaps a major deficiency in the underlying soil).

Or is it that your mulch was one-dimensional, so to speak?

Just trying to get some learnin’ :)
Jeff  :-)

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 06:40:38 PM »
Jeff do you follow the high brix "system?"

I signed up for their 30 day email thing to see what they have to say.

After reading some of their stuff and comparing to other things i've read, as a mostly beginner gardener, I come away rather confused and depressed. It seems everyone has a system, from Carl Whitcomb to Linda Chalker-Scott (not a system in her case, more of an approach) to permaculture gurus (and I mean "guru" as in having followers). They contradict each other in many cases on certain points. Of course, some things seem to be mostly settled (e.g. don't amend native soil when planting perennials/trees) but other things are raging debates. Then you have folks like High Brix who are selling a product/service along with their version of The Truth. Makes it hard to discern fact from fiction.

Rather discouraging! I will say even prior to my little meltdown here, I decided there are very few absolutes in gardening. More than one way to skin a cat.

Perhaps my takeaway from this freak-out is that less is more, slow and steady wins the race, and don't do anything unless you have specific need...

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 07:08:57 PM »
I don't follow the high brix gardening thing. They just happen to have some accurate info on ca + k in regards to fruit quality. There are two well-known facts:

 - Most compost has ca and k in a roughly 1 to 1 ratio. Poultry / dairy compost might have higher ca?
 - Ca deficiency causes soft fruit (lack of crunch) and low brix, and recommendations for ca to k are always well north of 1 to 1

Gardening is like anything in life -- you need to ignore the extremes. In the analog of human health, there are new 'gurus' and 'fads' that will advocate extremes. These tend to come and go. However, common sense coupled with some knowledge of the human body are sufficient to live healthy -- maintain a healthy weight, exercise regularly, stay away from processed food, etc.

As pertains to gardening, it's a journey, and it will take you several years until you get to a point where you find methods that work for you particular situation. It will take some trial and error and experimentation, but that's part of the fun.

Jeff do you follow the high brix "system?"

I signed up for their 30 day email thing to see what they have to say.

After reading some of their stuff and comparing to other things i've read, as a mostly beginner gardener, I come away rather confused and depressed. It seems everyone has a system, from Carl Whitcomb to Linda Chalker-Scott (not a system in her case, more of an approach) to permaculture gurus (and I mean "guru" as in having followers). They contradict each other in many cases on certain points. Of course, some things seem to be mostly settled (e.g. don't amend native soil when planting perennials/trees) but other things are raging debates. Then you have folks like High Brix who are selling a product/service along with their version of The Truth. Makes it hard to discern fact from fiction.

Rather discouraging! I will say even prior to my little meltdown here, I decided there are very few absolutes in gardening. More than one way to skin a cat.

Perhaps my takeaway from this freak-out is that less is more, slow and steady wins the race, and don't do anything unless you have specific need...
Jeff  :-)

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Re: sulpher application
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 09:44:52 PM »
Well said - thanks!