The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: simon_grow on August 05, 2014, 01:09:25 AM
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Hello Everyone,
After tasting the infamous Lemon Zest, I can't stop thinking about how amazing it was. I already have two decent sized grafted trees but now I'm also multigrafting LZ onto some of my other mango trees. In addition to this, I have planted out a LZ seed and intend to grow out all sprouts to see what I get.
I would like to know if others are growing out any LZ seeds and how many sprouts you got from each seed? Did some have multiple sprouts that eventually died ? How are your seedlings doing now? Do the seedlings have that curvy look to its leaves? It would be great if we can use this thread to track the progress of all the LZ seedlings out there all the way to fruition.
Since LZ is polyembryonic, I would like to keep track of each sprout from a seed so that we can document wether the dominant or smaller sprouts eventually have fruit that tastes like the parent. I only have one LZ seed to work with but I'll use this thread to track its progress. So far, only one sprout has emerged. I'll post a picture in the coming days.
Simon
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Good luck with your seeds and multi-grafts. I wasn't overly impressed with LZ's flavor, but it could be an off year. I also noticed LZ had a lot of fruit drops and some splits on my tree. It is also a vertical grower (as opposed to compact). The sri lanka weevils also seem to prefer the LZ tree leaves over some other mango varieties. Knowing what I know now, I might not have planted it. But it is in the ground and producing fruit, so I am content.
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Good luck with your seeds and multi-grafts. I wasn't overly impressed with LZ's flavor, but it could be an off year. I also noticed LZ had a lot of fruit drops and some splits on my tree. It is also a vertical grower (as opposed to compact). The sri lanka weevils also seem to prefer the LZ tree leaves over some other mango varieties. Knowing what I know now, I might not have planted it. But it is in the ground and producing fruit, so I am content.
Why are you growing mangoes at all?
YOUR TREES ARE VERY YOUNG, IT IS QUITE NORMAL FOR FRUIT TO DROP AND NOT BE REPRESENTATIVE OF OVERALL FLAVOR AND QUALITY. Maybe you missed the 10000000 emails emphasizing this. Thats okn though, it leaves more LZ fruit for everybody else.
Many mango varieties have a vertical growth habit. If you have a small yard it could be a limiting factor in the number of trees or variety selection but when you have the space you do, who cares???
I have also not seen any evidence that the weevils, Sri Laken or otherwise, prefer LZ to other varieties. Maybe they do in your yard but your general statement that they prefer LZ is not founded or accurate.
If you are content, THEN WHY DO YOU KEEP COMPLAINING????? ??? ::)
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RATS!
Another completed post and I hit the wrong button and it all disappeared.....
HATE when that happens.... >:( >:( >:(
Anyway, now that I've calmed down (NOT!), Simon, are you sure they are
polyembrionic ?? ?? ? If so I'll plant my final five fruits starting tonight when I
will eat one of these:
(http://s3.postimg.cc/v0jbz9033/LZ_fruit_080414.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/v0jbz9033/)
...which six days ago looked like these (if you'll remember my post of
fruit ripening from the bottom up...). They appear to have ripened fairly
evenly, thought the bottom point is definitely softer:
(http://s30.postimg.cc/oce92813x/Lemon_Zest_Fruit_072914.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/oce92813x/)
Simon - I'll try to remember to keep track of how the sprouted seeds behave.....
it's a memory thing with me..... ::)
Gary
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Its a Purdy Fruit ! ;)..
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Man o Man, Simon! I ate one of the two LZ mangoes you see in my picture tonight,
and it was BURSTING with razzy orange delight-fullness!!!!!!!!!!!
So far, the best and most unique mango I've ever eaten - I could not, WOULD not want to eat
another one after one of these. A truly, utterly rich and satisfying meal all by
itself....If this is polyembrionic, I'm planting this sucker and guarding it with
my life....
Ah....the future looks bright!
Gary
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Gary,
LZ should be polyembryonic, just like its parent PPK.
Happy planting!
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Gary, and others in the US considering planting seeds - are you looking to get another LZ or are you trying to come up with another variety? If you are trying to get a.clone and another LZ, why not plant a seed and graft with budwood from the tree th ou already have?
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I will be in Fla in Sept. I would like to get a couple LZ seeds. My grafted LZ died on me last year. and I wont be bringing in live plants anymore. seeds and scions ok..
I did not know it was a Poly. anyone know how long mango seeds remain viable? I'd appreciate it if anyone could save me a couple seeds, I'll drive anywhere down in S/Fla. to pick them up.
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Thanks for the replies!
Gary, your LZ mangos look absolutely amazing! Thanks again for the invite to the Desert mango tasting! The LZ seed I planted was directly from the mango tasting and I just spotted a second shoot coming out so it's definitely polyembryonic! Let's see if one of us can hit the LZ jackpot with an excellent tasting seedling!
I personally really really love LZ mangos and want to grow some from seed because I feel the undisturbed tap root will help the tree grow more vigorously especially here in SoCal. I'm hoping for fruit that will taste similar to a LZ but different, perhaps with a little more tropical taste. LZ itself is a seedling of PPK so I know that good flavor is in its genetics, specifically the gene that carries the citrusy aspect of both LZ and PPK.
I would also love to graft the original LZ onto a LZ seedling as an insurance policy to ensure I will eventually get a large LZ tree that will be capable of supporting a lot of fruit.
(http://s30.postimg.cc/f1t6azfrx/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/f1t6azfrx/)
(http://s30.postimg.cc/c6g344brx/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/c6g344brx/)
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Since LZ is polyembryonic, I would like to keep track of each sprout from a seed so that we can document wether the dominant or smaller sprouts eventually have fruit that tastes like the parent. I only have one LZ seed to work with but I'll use this thread to track its progress. So far, only one sprout has emerged. I'll post a picture in the coming days.
Simon
Gary, and others in the US considering planting seeds - are you looking to get another LZ or are you trying to come up with another variety? If you are trying to get a.clone and another LZ, why not plant a seed and graft with budwood from the tree th ou already have?
Simon, bsbullie,
I'm doing virtually the same experiment too, but with poly varieties varieties Florigon and Brahm Kai Meu... to start. I got frustrated with all the conflicting published information on zygotes and clones and larger sprout versus smaller sprouts. So I thought I would take this matter into my own hands. Although the thought of getting a variety better than its parent (1000:1 odds?) is secondary for me, it would be a nice surprise if it happened. The toughest part is that the experiment will most likely take 5-7 years. I hope the zygote/clone experimental result is not variety dependent!
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Guys, if you want the clone, just germinate the seed and dump the mass into a 5 gallon bucket. Then gently pull them apart to see which one is the cross and discard it. The fertilized one will have true cotyledons attached to it while the clones are not attached to anything.
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I hear ya Rob - I'm looking to use these seedling LZ's as possible gifts to people, but
to REALLY get the goods goin' I'm DEFINITELY going to start grafting
my LZ tree onto other potted seedlings I've got (which includes some
Manilas from last year and the year before) I mean, I really can't see improvement
on what it's produced so far. Now my grafting skills - that's another story.... :'(
I mean - to me this mango is the cocaine of the mangifera addiction... and it
looks like there's going to be a few more LZ's in my backyard at some point.
(I do this a lot - go bonkers and attempt to acquire multiple varieties of
a great mango....!!!!)
Your welcome, Simon and good luck with the seedlings and your refractometer!
;D
fyliu - I might take a picture of my sprouted LZ seed someday, and throw it into
that bucket and you can tell me which is the "alleged" clone seedling(s) and which
is the fertilized one.....very interesting observation by the way.....thanks....
Gary
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Wow Fang,
Thanks for the information! I'll probably grow out the zygote as well just to see what I'll get. I'm afraid I will injure the seedlings roots but I'll report back after the operation.
Simon
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I personally really really love LZ mangos and want to grow some from seed because I feel the undisturbed tap root will help the tree grow more vigorously especially here in SoCal. I'm hoping for fruit that will taste similar to a LZ but different, perhaps with a little more tropical taste. LZ itself is a seedling of PPK so I know that good flavor is in its genetics, specifically the gene that carries the citrusy aspect of both LZ and PPK.
Q: Experts; What are the odds of that happening? 1 in 10?
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I personally really really love LZ mangos and want to grow some from seed because I feel the undisturbed tap root will help the tree grow more vigorously especially here in SoCal. I'm hoping for fruit that will taste similar to a LZ but different, perhaps with a little more tropical taste. LZ itself is a seedling of PPK so I know that good flavor is in its genetics, specifically the gene that carries the citrusy aspect of both LZ and PPK.
Q: Experts; What are the odds of that happening? 1 in 10?
Gary started with more than 20 PPK seedlings before he was able to widdle down to get Orange Sherbert and Lemon Zest...some he let go all the way to fruiting age to learn they were destined for the wood pile.
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I'm thinking the odds are much worse for the Zygote but I'm counting on genetic differences from the supposed clone. As some have discussed in other threads , supposed clones often taste different than the original parent. I believe this was experienced in some Nam Doc Mai's. I'm just guessing that some varieties like Kensington Pride may come more true to clonal seed. I'm hoping this thread may answer some of these questions.
Simon
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On a related note...A lot of talk today on zygotes and clones.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12057.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12057.0)
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I'm thinking the odds are much worse for the Zygote but I'm counting on genetic differences from the supposed clone. As some have discussed in other threads , supposed clones often taste different than the original parent. I believe this was experienced in some Nam Doc Mai's. I'm just guessing that some varieties like Kensington Pride may come more true to clonal seed. I'm hoping this thread may answer some of these questions.
Simon
Simon
Here is a prefect example of a clone NDM that's over 30 years old from Thailand. These NDM don't split and taste exactly like my NDM #4 but some are 3 pounds
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af304/culov/Tropica%20fruits/IMG_1566.jpg)
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af304/culov/Tropica%20fruits/IMG_1567.jpg)
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af304/culov/Tropica%20fruits/IMG_1568.jpg)
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af304/culov/Tropica%20fruits/IMG_1570.jpg)
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af304/culov/Tropica%20fruits/IMG_1569.jpg)
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JF - those are shaped different than the NDM we have here. Ours dont have that hook at the bottom.
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JF - those are shaped different than the NDM we have here. Ours dont have that hook at the bottom.
Rob
they look different but the owner of this tree plant it from seed in 1982 from the Thai temple. He said it's a NDM from Thailand
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JF - those are shaped different than the NDM we have here. Ours dont have that hook at the bottom.
Rob
they look different but the owner of this tree plant it from seed in 1982 from the Thai temple. He said it's a NDM from Thailand
There are many NDM varieties, Siatong, Mun, #4 to name a few. They actually all have numbers c associated with them like #4 for example. I wonder which one that is...does it taste any different than #4 or "regular" NDM?
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That tree is awesome! I hope I can get a few of my trees to get big like that.
Does anyone know if Orange Sherbet is also a seedling of PPK ? Thanks,
Simon
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That tree is awesome! I hope I can get a few of my trees to get big like that.
Does anyone know if Orange Sherbet is also a seedling of PPK ? Thanks,
Simon
Yes, Orange Sherbert is a seedling of PPK.
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JF - those are shaped different than the NDM we have here. Ours dont have that hook at the bottom.
Rob
they look different but the owner of this tree plant it from seed in 1982 from the Thai temple. He said it's a NDM from Thailand
There are many NDM varieties, Siatong, Mun, #4 to name a few. They actually all have numbers c associated with them like #4 for example. I wonder which one that is...does it taste any different than #4 or "regular" NDM?
I've eaten a good share of NDM # 4 this summer and the taste is very close super sweet and totally fiberless.....I like this one better a lot more flesh to eat.
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Wow Fang,
Thanks for the information! I'll probably grow out the zygote as well just to see what I'll get. I'm afraid I will injure the seedlings roots but I'll report back after the operation.
Simon
Yeah, I think the trick is to do it in water and at the right stage in its growth when it has strong enough shoots and roots to not get broken easily but not too long that they tangle up. The buoyancy of the water helps. This is a Jim Neitzel trick btw.
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Rob - why did they name the most ORANGEY-tasting mango I've ever had, LEMON
ZEST? I mean I don't taste a bit of lemon....is it just me and mine?
Gary
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Hey Gary,
I may be the only one on earth that thinks this but during the tasting event at your place, my palate definitely detected a strong taste of lemon zest in a candied Meyer Lemon peel sort of way. I love that taste and can't wait to taste it again!
Simon
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Simon - guess I missed that....but I wish you could just see the overwhelming
orange taste in these properly ripened ones.....
I'll probably have another one tonight and I'll search for the candied lemon
peel flavor.....
G
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From Gary's taste testing, I recall the CA desert grown LZ had a less "orangey" flavor than the FL grown LZ we tried... But both were excellent!
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Not now, Warren - it's KILLER orange with WICKED zest.....
wish I could give you all a taste of it now.....
:P
Gary
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It is a ripeness issue that brings out the orange flavor in LZ. Not at peak ripeness and it has a blend of ornage/lemon flavor.
If you were to taste and see an Orange Sherbert, you would see why LZ is LZ and OS is OS.
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hmmmm....interesting....makes sense....I'll keep an eye out
por la differencia....
G
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YES! You guys were right! Really a lemon/orange sweet mash-up - yep just tasted it.....
boy....this mango really stays with you!
Gary
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Hey Gary, have you considered top working your Manilla mango with Lemon Zest or other varieties that you like? Your Manilla is very vigorous and must have an excellent root spread by now. Imagine if instead of all those Manillas, you had that many LZs! You could top the tree very low to stimulate new growth lower down on the trunk and then wait until the new growth is about pencil thick before you graft. The strong foundation of that Manilla tree should push the grafts to grow very fast. Your a Manilla tree is beautiful but I just felt you weren't very pleased with the quality of the fruit.
Simon
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Hey Gary, have you considered top working your Manilla mango with Lemon Zest or other varieties that you like? Your Manilla is very vigorous and must have an excellent root spread by now. Imagine if instead of all those Manillas, you had that many LZs! You could top the tree very low to stimulate new growth lower down on the trunk and then wait until the new growth is about pencil thick before you graft. The strong foundation of that Manilla tree should push the grafts to grow very fast. Your a Manilla tree is beautiful but I just felt you weren't very pleased with the quality of the fruit.
Simon
Simon
I suggested the same thing to Gary but I don't think he has the heart to crop down his first love :) he's got 2 Manila trees that are well establish and would be perfect candidates for top working. Gary, if you don't have the heart I would be more than happy to bring my saw down to Palm Spring and make short work out of those Manilas :D
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Rob - why did they name the most ORANGEY-tasting mango I've ever had, LEMON
ZEST? I mean I don't taste a bit of lemon....is it just me and mine?
Gary
Some fruits are orange-lemon taste and some are totally orange sherbet tasting is what I have seen. Scrape the flesh off right near the skin for some resinous orange tastes. LZ that are ripe to a bit past ripe and later in the tree's season seem to go more to the 100% orange taste
I can see why Zill does not release orange sherbet/would create too much confusion/ plus going by the OS marked pots that many of the first LZ were sent out in..... The LZ was going to be called OS but Zill changed their minds
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HA! I read your minds. I did a HUGE chopping of the Manila out front today. Probably cut too much,
but frankly I know how fast it grows back. Problem is my grafting skills. Guess I'll need to watch
some grafting videos again and get started. What is that graft one does on the side of a trunk -
oh, yeah VENEER.....well. I'm gonna start probably after the worst of the heat leave in Sept., but
might try a few before.....
Wish I could pay somebody to come out and do like 30 LZ grafts for me.....
Gary
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Hey Gary, if you have branches really low, you can just innarch or approach graft the Lemon Zest. This will require you have a potted Lemon Zest but you should get a high rate of success and if you approach graft low enough, just let the Lemon Zest scion become the new tree and you will only have to remove any new growth from beneath the graft.
Simon
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HA! I read your minds. I did a HUGE chopping of the Manila out front today. Probably cut too much,
but frankly I know how fast it grows back. Problem is my grafting skills. Guess I'll need to watch
some grafting videos again and get started. What is that graft one does on the side of a trunk -
oh, yeah VENEER.....well. I'm gonna start probably after the worst of the heat leave in Sept., but
might try a few before.....
Wish I could pay somebody to come out and do like 30 LZ grafts for me.....
Gary
Actually the higher heat will generally cause greater success...
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HA! I read your minds. I did a HUGE chopping of the Manila out front today. Probably cut too much,
but frankly I know how fast it grows back. Problem is my grafting skills. Guess I'll need to watch
some grafting videos again and get started. What is that graft one does on the side of a trunk -
oh, yeah VENEER.....well. I'm gonna start probably after the worst of the heat leave in Sept., but
might try a few before.....
Wish I could pay somebody to come out and do like 30 LZ grafts for me.....
Gary
Aww, you could have made us each do 5 during the tasting and be done. 5 is not too bad, but once you go above 10 I imagine it becomes less interesting. I wouldn't have mind doing some although I haven't had success with mango yet.
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Guys, if you want the clone, just germinate the seed and dump the mass into a 5 gallon bucket. Then gently pull them apart to see which one is the cross and discard it. The fertilized one will have true cotyledons attached to it while the clones are not attached to anything.
Hey Fang,
I dumped out my LZ seedling to try to see which one was attached to the cotyledon but unfortunately, both sprouts appear to be attached! One sprout is attached to each half of the cotyledon. If I try to seperately them, the cotyledon will fall off, I have tried this a couple times with my Manilla seeds and sometimes they seperately easily, sometimes they don't. I think I know what you mean though, sometimes, I have seen obvious clones growing from a corner of the seed, not attached to anything.
Simon
(http://s28.postimg.cc/8tyedpqnt/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/8tyedpqnt/)
(http://s28.postimg.cc/uqkxe33uh/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/uqkxe33uh/)
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Here's my CHOPPED Manila - it felt like murder, but then I grafted about
20 LZ scions to it and felt better....
I'm sure it's not a very good pugging....should probably get rid of some
if not all of those lower branches....still need to recover from the blade
work I guess....suggestions?
Gary
(http://s23.postimg.cc/92yex693b/Manila_CUT_BACK_081014.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/92yex693b/)
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Simon, maybe it's not a poly? I would think the clone shoot would grow directly from the piece of mother tissue rather than being attached to it with a little bridge. I never germinated a poly seed so your experience is what matters.
Maybe Gary can try germinating his LZ seeds to make sure they're poly.
Sometimes the embryo or the mother tissue pieces can die off in the seed and you can end up with a seed with all clones or just the one fertilized embryo, which is not very likely.
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Here's my CHOPPED Manila - it felt like murder, but then I grafted about
20 LZ scions to it and felt better....
I'm sure it's not a very good pugging....should probably get rid of some
if not all of those lower branches....still need to recover from the blade
work I guess....suggestions?
Gary
(http://s23.postimg.cc/92yex693b/Manila_CUT_BACK_081014.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/92yex693b/)
Yea, three our Father, Hail Mary and Glory be......
I would have chopped it down further and done some bark grafts. Too bad you live 120 miles not 20 minutes or I would have helped you out, perfect time to graft mangos.
Good luckMangoDog!
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Yeah, JF, I could still do bark grafting down low, but have NEVER had success with it before.
Can you do it on a fairly thick trunk????
Gary
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Fang - I am going to sprout all my LZ seeds and then i'll post a picture
so you can tell what to do with what.....
thanks, Gary
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Thanks For the information Fang! There is a chance it's not poly but I did get two sprouts from it do far.
Gary, I agree with JF and would have chopped it down much lower. I would have brought it down to 2-3 ft, leaving no branches above the cut. This should stimulate vigorous new growth for you to work with once it has matured a little. Once the branches have matured, you simply select a few evenly spaced branches to graft. Once a graft takes, all you have to do is carefully monitor and remove any new growth from beneath the graft. By doing this, you will save yourself a lot of work later by not having to constantly remove the vigorous Manilla branches.
Simon
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http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12110.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12110.0)
Gary, watch this vid. At 25:43, this is what JF and simon is talking about. This is also what I would have done.
I completely changed the canopy of my moms cherimoya tree by bark grafting major scaffold branches. I haven't experienced any suckering of the original tree. Not sure if this is the case for mangos. I believe Max did the same to his aunts large mango tree with success. Maybe he can chime in on the after care
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http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12110.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12110.0)
Gary, watch this vid. At 25:43, this is what JF and simon is talking about. This is also what I would have done.
I completely changed the canopy of my moms cherimoya tree by bark grafting major scaffold branches. I haven't experienced any suckering of the original tree. Not sure if this is the case for mangos. I believe Max did the same to his aunts large mango tree with success. Maybe he can chime in on the after care
that's fine but what I meant was more like our Mangoprofessor's top working video. Tim put out a great video on top working mangos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N4MB23FFi8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N4MB23FFi8)
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The idea about planting a mango seed directly into the ground (so not in a pot), to get a good taproot to help the tree establish sooner / be more drought resistant, probably has merit. Greater ease of international travel with a seed versus a whole plant is also a fact.
Add big question marks to the other proposed reasons above.
Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.
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The idea about planting a mango seed directly into the ground (so not in a pot), to get a good taproot to help the tree establish sooner / be more drought resistant, probably has merit. Grater ease of international travel with a seed versus a whole plant is also a fact.
Add big question marks to the other proposed reasons above.
Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.
Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.
BSbullie should read your words. I have been exterminating on seedlings like this. Full sun is very interesting as another way to shorten the juvenile period and get the mango tree to fruiting
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The idea about planting a mango seed directly into the ground (so not in a pot), to get a good taproot to help the tree establish sooner / be more drought resistant, probably has merit. Grater ease of international travel with a seed versus a whole plant is also a fact.
Add big question marks to the other proposed reasons above.
Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.
Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.
BSbullie should read your words. I have been exterminating on seedlings like this. Full sun is very interesting as another way to shorten the juvenile period and get the mango tree to fruiting
I should read his words, meaning???
"I have been exterminating on seedlings like this"??? English my boy, speak english... ;)
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You know what I meant but the important thing is Mr Har confirmed what I was saying before about dedicated tip pruning shortening the mango juvenile stage. He also had more ideas for doing this. (shortening the mango juvenile stage)
Listen to him and you will learn. BTW where is Mr Orange Sherbet mango guy?
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You know what I meant but the important thing is Mr Har confirmed what I was saying before about dedicated tip pruning shortening the mango juvenile stage. He also had more ideas for doing this. (shortening the mango juvenile stage)
Listen to him and you will learn. BTW where is Mr Orange Sherbet mango guy?
Sorry, truly have no idea what you are referring to. If you think I am not a proponent of tip pruning, better do some homework. The search feature will reveal posts that may shock you.
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Here is an update of my Lemon Zest seedling mangos. As I posted before, two seedlings came up from one seed, it appeared that each seedling was attached to each half of the seed so I could not tell which was the clone. After the second, slower seedling popped up, I noticed that there was a seam in the trunk of the slower growing seedling.
I have noticed this seam in other poly embryonic mangos before and I wonder if this is an indication of the clone? The true leaves on these seedlings are too young and malformed to determine which, if any of the seedlings is the clone but my guess so far is that the slower growing seedling with the stem and bent trunk is the clone based on early observation of the structure of the leaves.
Does anyone else have updates on their Lemon Zest seedlings? Do you notice a seem in any of the seedlings that came up? Lemon Zest may be a good poly mango to grow when trying to determine which seedling is a clone due to the unique wavy structure of its leaves. This characteristic may be used after the first true leaves are formed. Does anyone else notice a seam on any of the poly seedlings you are growing? Thanks!
Simon
(http://s15.postimg.cc/uybbv29dz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/uybbv29dz/)
(http://s15.postimg.cc/d5prn6s5j/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/d5prn6s5j/)
(http://s15.postimg.cc/nr9mz6yh3/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/nr9mz6yh3/)
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The seam I'm referring to can be seen in the third picture.
Simon
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Good luck with your seeds and multi-grafts. I wasn't overly impressed with LZ's flavor, but it could be an off year. I also noticed LZ had a lot of fruit drops and some splits on my tree. It is also a vertical grower (as opposed to compact). The sri lanka weevils also seem to prefer the LZ tree leaves over some other mango varieties. Knowing what I know now, I might not have planted it. But it is in the ground and producing fruit, so I am content.
MC,
Thanks for your observations /opinions. Some may not realize that contentment comes with a resignation and acceptance of facts as they are for you, not as they are for the multitudes. I'm of the same mind with Carambola I planted out.
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I love LZ and for that reason I grafted it onto my aggressive alphonso. I also put the seed into ground and got 7 sprouts. I also have fruit punch seedling that is mono embryonic and coco cream that is polyembryonic.
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Here's another update of my Lemon Zest Mango. The original seedlings got too heavy and layed down a bit so I'm going to stake them up. I also plan on planting them directly into the ground soon.
Strangely, I noticed that many new growths are coming from The base of one of the seedlings and lots of other new growths appear to be coming from the original seed although I'm not sure because I don't want to disturb them at this time.
I already have two grafted Lemon Zest mango trees but I love this variety so much that I grafted three scions onto my Manilla cocktail tree and all three grafts took and are pushing new growth.
For anyone wondering why I'm even planting out this seed, it is mostly due to curiosity but also because I want a big LZ tree and grafted trees seem to grow very slowly for me so I figure that planting a seedling of a poly mango variety might get me a bigger tree.
There are many threads regarding which seedling from a poly mango is the the clone and I'm not sure that my one Lemon Zest mango seed will answer any of the question but I will be very happy if I get fruit from one of the seedlings that tastes similar to a PPK/LZ/OS. In hindsight, I should have planted this seed directly into the ground where I want it to grow but I have animals digging in my yard and didn't want to risk my one and only seed.
This seedling has been neglected and the pot has been knocked over a couple of times so the seedlings are not very pretty or symmetrical.
Simon
(http://s23.postimg.cc/knj3rto6f/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/knj3rto6f/)
(http://s23.postimg.cc/c3zpu2ftz/image.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/c3zpu2ftz/)
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"which seedling from a poly mango is the the clone"
from what I read I concluded that no one really knows how to figure this out, but some claim they know how to do it, but its not clear!
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There is a physical way to definitely figure this out that works almost 100% of the time, like I posted before. Just take apart the seed carefully. But, depending on the stage of growth, it's gets harder if you want the plant to survive the inspection.
It's not exactly 100% because the grower can be careless in taking it apart.
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so is the least aggressive OR the most aggressive growing seedling the clone?
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Fang, I vaguely recall reading the method you are talking about but I had two seedlings come up and each seedling came up from each half of the seed.
Behl, I never figured out which seedling is the clone. I've read the posts on this forum and I'm still confused. This is one of the reasons I'm growing out all the seedlings coming up. I've also read reports on this forum that seedlings from Poly varieties don't come out exactly like the parent. I believe Gary in Palm Springs has a Nam Doc Mai and Harry in Florida has a Manilla mango.
Simon
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I am growing seedlings of kesar from india, lemon zest, coconut cream, and fruit punch.
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Simon, if they're both growing directly out of single pieces of seed tissue, then they should both be clones. The embryo could have died sometime after fertilization. It had to be fertilized for the fruit to start growing. You should just ask Leo. It's the people in SD that told me how to figure it out.
Looking at the vigor of the seedlings is not reliable in all cases. Most of the time the clones have will have less vigor due to the fertilized embryo being attached to 2 cotyledons. Clones come out of just single pieces of the seed. So the embryo has 2 food sources and each clone has 1 food source. The complication is that there's some degree of randomness in the division of seed tissues. So the chunk of the seed the clone grows from has a small chance of actually being massive, which allows the clone to be as vigorous or more than the embryo in a small percentage of poly seeds. So that's why it's not reliable.
The better way is to pull the seedlings apart to inspect which one is attached to cotyledons by thin connectors ("umbilical cords" to the food sources). Each clone grow directly out of a single piece of tissue, no connection to other pieces.
There's an optimal time to be doing this though, which is before they grow a lot of roots that can be damaged. Just drop the whole thing into a large bucket and the buoyancy will reduce the chances of hurting the seedlings. The clones are less easily damaged. There's a greater chance you might lose the true embryo.
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Simon, if they're both growing directly out of single pieces of seed tissue, then they should both be clones. The embryo could have died sometime after fertilization. It had to be fertilized for the fruit to start growing. You should just ask Leo. It's the people in SD that told me how to figure it out.
Looking at the vigor of the seedlings is not reliable in all cases. Most of the time the clones have will have less vigor due to the fertilized embryo being attached to 2 cotyledons. Clones come out of just single pieces of the seed. So the embryo has 2 food sources and each clone has 1 food source. The complication is that there's some degree of randomness in the division of seed tissues. So the chunk of the seed the clone grows from has a small chance of actually being massive, which allows the clone to be as vigorous or more than the embryo in a small percentage of poly seeds. So that's why it's not reliable.
The better way is to pull the seedlings apart to inspect which one is attached to cotyledons by thin connectors ("umbilical cords" to the food sources). Each clone grow directly out of a single piece of tissue, no connection to other pieces.
There's an optimal time to be doing this though, which is before they grow a lot of roots that can be damaged. Just drop the whole thing into a large bucket and the buoyancy will reduce the chances of hurting the seedlings. The clones are less easily damaged. There's a greater chance you might lose the true embryo.
Thank you for your information! Everything that I've read has been in line with what you're saying.
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Anyone have updates on their Lemon Zest seedlings or any other Zill polyembryonic variety?
Our grafted trees here in SoCal have a horrible and energy wasting habit of flowering in its first Winter. By planting seedlings of Polyembryonic varieties, I hope to overcome this challenge while at the same time guarantee that I will have good tasting fruit that is similar, if not identical to the parent without having to graft(because of the flowering issue from mature scions).
I hope to completely bypass the issue of "which seedling is the clone, which is zygotic" by keeping at least two seedlings arising from a single seed. Assuming that there is only one zygote per fruit/seed, I should have a good chance of getting a true clone. Assumptions are usually the mother of all f ups and this is why I would like to gather more information from forum members regarding any additional information, observations or pictures you might have.
When planting Polyembryonic seedlings, one must be aware that multiple sprouts can arise from a single segment of a seed and these two sprouts should have the same genotype and should not be counted as two seperate seedlings. Even Monoembryonic seeds can and often do have multiple sprouts coming from a single segment of the seed.
For my Polyembryonic seeds, I usually start them in a double ziplock bag, wrapped with a slightly moist paper towel and put on top of a seedling heat mat. By sprouting in this manner, I can observe and ensure that there is at least two seedlings arising from two seperate segments of the seed.
The original seedlings from the start of this thread were neglected and died and several others were given away to friends so I only have a few seedlings left that were planted last year. One observation I have experienced first hand is that it may be possible to differentiate which seedling is the true clone for unique Polyembryonic varieties like LZ by damaging and and smelling the juice coming from the leaves.
When I damaged the leaves to a LZ seedling, it smelled identical to the smell of the damaged leaves from a true grafted LZ. My current seedlings are too small right now but I also expect to see the wavy appearance of the typical LZ leaves in the true clones.
Even if one were able to select the true clone, there can be mutations and genetic drift that alters the phenotype and genotype.
I know there are lots of people that planted seeds from Zill Polyembryonic varieties and it would be great if you can post pictures or provide additional information or observations. I'll post pictures of my tiny seedlings next time I'm in the yard.
Simon
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Simon, I have coconut cream, Fruit Punch, and Lemon Zest seedlings into its 3rd year starting is Summer. Fruit Punch is a failure, the seeling grew mere 15 inches and refuses to grow. Coco Cream like its parent is slow grower and appears droopy and fragile, grew only 14 inches. both are in ground.
On the other hand, Lemon Zest that sprouted 7 babies, 5 died and 2 survived. I did not separate them, one is 6 feet tall with 3/4" diameter trunk, other is abut 15 inches tall. I will let both to into maturity. No blooms yet.
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Thanks for the report Behl! The lack of flowering is a great blessing in disguise. Every Lemon Zest, or any mature scion, has bloomed within the first winter unless it was kept warm in a greenhouse or in my case, the garage under lights. My Coconut Cream seedlings were all curly like a pretzel and died in Winter when I got frost.
Simon
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Here's a couple different Lemon Zest seedlings. The single seedling originally had another smaller sprout that died but this remaining sprout has the LZ sap smell when the leaves are damaged.
(https://s3.postimg.cc/rpkdmu68f/IMG_1711.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rpkdmu68f/)
This picture is LZ with two remaining sprouts, one larger and one much smaller, both have the strong LZ sap smell.
(https://s7.postimg.cc/hutpza3zr/IMG_1714.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hutpza3zr/)
(https://s7.postimg.cc/5hgvsdebb/IMG_1715.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5hgvsdebb/)
Here's some Sweet Tart seedlings
(https://s16.postimg.cc/ls7ktz5k1/IMG_1710.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ls7ktz5k1/)
(https://s16.postimg.cc/6xizfsvz5/IMG_1712.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6xizfsvz5/)
Nam Doc Mai
(https://s15.postimg.cc/tfcguqy13/IMG_1713.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/tfcguqy13/)
The reason why they all look raggedy is because I planted the seeds and left them neglected for about 6 months. They were buried under weeds until I pulled them out last week.
Simon
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My girlfriend and I planted Orange Sherbet this way.
Both had four sprouts that are now about two ft tall.
We will wait on them to fruit to see what happens. Anything good will be left alone anything bad will be removed or top worked.
Let you know in a couple years.
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Wgphil,
It may be worth a try to break a leaf from each seedling and smelling the sap to see if it's citrusy. Do you happen to have a Lemon Zest? If you do, I wonder how different the Orange Sherbet seedlings leaves smell compared to the Lemon Zest?
Simon
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Simon
I do have a Lemon Zest and just went out and compared. I picked a leaf off the Lemon Zest first to have a base smell. The citrus smell you know so well. Then I picked a leaf off the nearest OS seedling and it was amazing. The citrus smell is way stronger. I then tried the others with two of them being near the LZ in smell and one other with the stronger smell of citrus.
It was hard to tell the lesser smells after I tried the much stronger. They may be less or more and I will try later without the stronger ones first.
Without a doubt the OS has a very good smell that is stronger than the LZ.
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That sounds really promising, please save me one or two scions when your tree is large enough:)
Simon
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Sure thing
Over at girlfriends now and we did the same thing with her seedlings.
Similar results
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I just went out into my yard and crunched up the leaves of 6 Lemon Zest seedlings and they all had a strong Lemon Zest sap smell like the actual parent. The smell of the sap is strong enough that I had to wash my hands after crushing each leaf in order to avoid cross contamination. I did notice that two of my seedlings growing from the same seed had a slightly weaker Lemon Zest leaf sap smell and these two seedlings are the smallest runts and their leaves were smaller and not as juicy as the healthier seedlings.
I also checked several of my Sweet Tart seedlings and the four seedlings I checked all had that Sweet Tart sap smell. Some seedlings did die after the seeds were planted and I wonder if those happen to be the zygotic seedlings.
Wether it's just dumb luck or some other factors I have yet to consider, the important thing is that this technique of planting polyembryonic seedlings and checking the smell of the sap seems like a totally logical way to get larger trees without the risk of early flowering by completely eliminating the need to graft.
There are still lots of issues that may pop up along the way but many of the issues I can think of are highly unlikely. One issue that could happen is that our cold weather can still induce early blooms even on young, ungrafted seedling plants. The only way to find out if this will happen is to grow out our seedlings and keep track of what happens.
Another issue that may occur is that even though the seedlings have the characteristic sap smell of the actual parent, the fruit from the seedlings may not taste anything like that of the parent. This may be caused by mutations, genetic drift or simply because even though the sap smelled the same as the parent, the seedling was actually zygotic and the half of the genes that the seedling received from its maternal parent was enough to pass on the smell in the sap of the zygotic seedling.
I personally feel that these scenarios are highly unlikely.
Simon
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Here is my lemon zest seedling, going into 3rd year. It's about 5 foot tall. I have not pruned but tipped it and it's growing nice canopy so far. Leaves have strong lemony smell, more aromatic than lemon zest. I also have manohar grafted on it just in case seedling disappoints, I will have top choice intact and fruiting. No time lost.
(https://s12.postimg.cc/f80iubwwp/20170526_194758.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/f80iubwwp/)
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Wow, that tree is absolutely beautiful. I've been neglecting all my trees so many of them look ragged. It will be super interesting how the fruit turns out. Please keep us updated on that LZ seedling!
Simon
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Guys, do we now have firm consensus over what is true clone in poly-embryonic mango seedlings? My LZ is into its 4th year now and looking very healthy. Although leaves are not like Lemon Zest (wavy), the smell of leaf sap is very strong and citrusy more than LZ.
Has anyone successfully fruited LZ seedling yet? what is the verdict? Mine might fruit next year or who knows when. Usually in CA we get trees to bloom from 2 years on.
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My Lemon Zest seedlings usually get the wavy look after a couple flushes. Here’s a picture of one of my LZ seedlings showing the wavy leaves. Unfortunately many of my random seedlings also have wavy looking leaves.
It’s probably going to be a couple more years before I get Fruit from the LZ seedlings I have planted around San Diego county. To get the best chance of getting a clone, ensure your seedling from a polyembryonic variety has at least two sprouts from different segments of the seed and grow out both seedlings to fruition.
(https://s14.postimg.cc/3qnu2e7lp/20708_A2_D-_D130-4_E34-_B4_F3-946886980_AFD.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3qnu2e7lp/)
(https://s14.postimg.cc/44p61erj1/CB24_D6_C1-_E735-412_D-_AEFC-6_F069_BC1_E8_A9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/44p61erj1/)
Simon
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Guys, do we now have firm consensus over what is true clone in poly-embryonic mango seedlings? My LZ is into its 4th year now and looking very healthy. Although leaves are not like Lemon Zest (wavy), the smell of leaf sap is very strong and citrusy more than LZ.
Has anyone successfully fruited LZ seedling yet? what is the verdict? Mine might fruit next year or who knows when. Usually in CA we get trees to bloom from 2 years on.
I remember once i read a scientific research about identifiying nucellar and zygotic seedlings from poly seeds, and the experiences showed that for some cases the zygotic was the tallest seedling while in oher cases it was the smallest seedling and for other cases it was the middle one. I can't find this study, but since then i stopped believing that there is an absolute truth about the size of the zygotic seedling and started thinking as simon-grow does : leaving all the seedlings grow and figure out later :)
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Shinzo, I remember coming to a similar conclusion. The dominant seedling being the clone or not is dependent on the variety of Mango.
Here is one paper with some useful information.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/pab/v47n11/47n11a10.pdf (http://www.scielo.br/pdf/pab/v47n11/47n11a10.pdf)
Note that they found that a seed can produce more than one zygotic seedling.
Simon
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Thank you, Simon, for the link to that paper. Sexually produced twins or triplets certainly makes sense. That some seeds have no nucellar embryos also makes sense.
If we had known those two facts back in the 1990's we would have done a better job at discarding "off-types" from root-stock batches. The boss and I both selected 10 off-types and 10 on-types , and he sent the four groups to a lab. He told me later that we had both scored around 80% for each of our groups.
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Problem with my 7 seedlings that came up, one after the other 6 died. last one that died was good until 2.5 years but grew only 12", do theory of it being close cannot be true for slower ones as they may never mature or make it. the 7th one that was leader of the pack from day 1 is now over 6 feet tall. I plan on giving it a decent hack job to get some fresh growth, last year growth was thin branches and may not result in strong plant. Does pruning spur blooms?