Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: Citradia on March 05, 2017, 09:06:58 PM

Title: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on March 05, 2017, 09:06:58 PM
Crazy question: everyone has p. Trifoliata, but who has Ichang papeda (citrus ichangensis)? I know the fruit is supposed to be useless, but what if someone wants a big ol' citrus tree with big ol' fruit on it where it gets down to zero degrees? Who is growing it, and who is selling it or the seeds? Is it any good as a rootstock?
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on March 07, 2017, 07:59:54 PM
Huh. Guess not.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on March 08, 2017, 03:54:47 AM
I have it in the ground, it is grafted on poncirus.
Last year I planted its seedlings in the ground, they are growing quite well, survived -9C and  10 days of frozen ground.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on March 08, 2017, 09:55:29 PM
Good for you, Ilya! Thanks for the response. Best wishes.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on March 09, 2017, 03:49:12 PM
I think the reason why it is not being used as rootstock is the variability of its seedlings,  they are zygotic and do not reproduce faithfully the mother plant.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on March 15, 2017, 09:18:07 PM
I figured people don't have it because the fruit is supposed to be nasty. But poncyrus trifoliata is nasty and people grow it. I think I read somewhere that trifoliata serves as a better rootstock and is more cold hardy than ichangensis.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on March 16, 2017, 03:39:38 AM
Here in Europe we have  a clone of ichangensis - IVIA , that is quite edible.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on March 16, 2017, 08:09:59 PM
Well, I wish we could have that one here, Ilya. Nice to know though.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Florian on March 19, 2017, 06:42:01 PM
Hi everyone
I am new to this forum. I have an ichangensis IVIA and Ilya is right when he says the fruit is quite edible (that is compared to other ichangensis cultivars or Poncirus). My plant is still small and the fruit might become bigger as the tree grows larger. There was not much pulp in the fruits I have harvested so far but there is , in contrast to other ichangensis cultivars. The juice is usable just like lemon juice. Another plus is the fact that they ripen even in our cool summers.
I know reports from Germany of trees surviving down to -18C but I don't know about the IVIA. I haven't tested mine yet since I want to let it grow a bit larger first.

(https://s8.postimg.cc/afrkrz3s1/20161019_171520.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/afrkrz3s1/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/xv9hxbnj5/IMG_3496.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xv9hxbnj5/)

If in the future it should contain more seeds, I will be happy to share them.
cheers
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Millet on March 19, 2017, 09:19:51 PM
Florian welcome to the forum, we are happy to have you as a member.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on March 19, 2017, 09:21:29 PM
Florian, so wonderful to read your post! Thanks for the pic too!  Would be nice to have some of those IVIA seeds on this continent, as long as customs and agricultural laws don't prohibit it. Sounds like you all have a great species there that those of us in colder climates can appreciate. Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Florian on March 20, 2017, 11:50:38 AM
Thanks for the warm welcome. It would be a pity if your customs didn't allow to send citrus seeds (since I understand they can't carry viruses, can they?). We shall see.. :)
We do indeed have some interesting citrus varieties here but so do you. For example I have never seen a Clemyuz 2-2 for sale here (let alone a dekopon). Also, the Japanese have some good stuff which nobody seems to be able to get their hands on like the seedless Yuzus or the real Yuko..
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: eyeckr on April 05, 2017, 04:39:07 PM
Hi Citradia,

I have Ichang papeda, or at least a variant of it. Mine has done well and has not been bothered by the couple of events of single digit weather we've experienced over the last 10 or so years. It has survived a lot of cold along with a few other trusty hardy varieties I have planted out in the yard here in VA. We got hit pretty hard going on three years ago and my trees are starting to come back around. I grafted my Ichang papeda on flying dragon so it isn't very big. It has pretty leaves similar to kaffir lime. My papeda fruit are small and all virtually seedless or have aborted seeds. I feel that my Ichang lemon tree is prettier though and the larger fruit is more useful. It has survived along side the papeda without much issue. If you don't mind the trifoliate leaves Swingle citrumelo will give you a big 'ol tree full of big 'ol citrus fruit too.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on April 05, 2017, 07:30:21 PM
Hi eyeckr. Good to hear from you again. I have several Ichang lemon trees that I grew fro seeds from a lemon you gave me several years ago at the SE citrus expo in Myrtle Beach. Several in ground are 5 ft tall or more and were protected in a high tunnel for the past few years. They look pretty rough this year ironically enough with the warm winter we had. Totally defoliated with some dead branches. I loved the fruit, but at this point doubt that it will be cold hardy enough here when/if they get to big to cover. Don't think I'll be able to cover them next winter. I had a swingle citrumelo but it died in the polar vortex a few years ago. I have some dunsta citrumelo trees, again from one of your fruits, that have survived the past two winters in ground with no protection at all with some leaves still hanging on. I just figured Ichang papeda would be even more hardy than citranges, similar to PT. From what I've read, papeda is supposed to be full of seeds, no?
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: eyeckr on April 06, 2017, 10:20:06 AM
Sorry to hear about losing your Swingle. I believe Ichang Papeda is supposed to have seeds but mine does not. If you never got a (Clem x Tri) x Clem or Tai Tri hybrid from me it may be a couple of good ones for you to try there. They both have handled extended freezing and low temps very well and fruit just about every year.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on April 06, 2017, 07:55:36 PM
Yes. Clem x tri is a citrandarin, no? I need to try a mandarin- trifoliate hybrid. Should be pretty hardy.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Florian on January 28, 2018, 06:22:42 AM
So, this year I left the fruit on my ichangensis IVIA until it became soft because on my recent trip (december 22) to Eisenhut I saw their mother plant and it was bearing a few fruit that were ginormous, at least compared to mine:

(https://s18.postimg.cc/vkq6izxed/IMG_4193.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/vkq6izxed/)

The fruit was already post maturity and very soft. I had read before that this cultivar had sweetish rind (!). The nursery owner wouldn't let me have the plant (since it was the mother plant) so I took a nibble when he wasn't looking ;D.
Well, the rind was sweet indeed!

I thought perhaps if I left the fruit on my tree long enough, its rind would become sweetish too but it didn't. In fact, it is horrible. I can't really describe the taste but it is bitter and kerosene-like. I must be doing something wrong. My plant is still potted but so is the mother plant at Eisenhut.. Anyways, here are some pics of the fruit from my tree:

(https://s18.postimg.cc/3yney43p1/IMG_4234.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3yney43p1/)

(https://s18.postimg.cc/8xaxcnmxh/IMG_4237.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8xaxcnmxh/)

(https://s18.postimg.cc/5dozmuzn9/IMG_4238.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5dozmuzn9/)

It was seedless once again.. Although the rind is horrible I am still quite satisfied. It looks like a useable lemon juice source for my climate. The pulp is acid like described above, the albedo has no flavour (but also no bitterness). Here's hoping it becomes as brilliant as the mother plant in the future.. I will certainly contact the nursery and inquire about how they actually care for theirs.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on January 28, 2018, 07:15:54 AM
Florian, when it was flowering?
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Florian on January 28, 2018, 07:23:58 AM
Mine? Ehm, I am not sure, I think at the beginning of May. The fruit was yellow in late autumn but I left it on the tree hoping the rind would become sweet.. but it only became soft.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on January 28, 2018, 08:51:56 AM
Probably it is overripe
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on January 29, 2018, 09:33:13 AM
Florian, in reference to your tree and the "mother " plant, did your fruiting tree come from this mother plant from seed or graft, and how long did it take for your tree to produce fruit in the pot?
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on January 29, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
I have acquired some seeds from ichangensis fruit and as the seedlings grow, I notice some don't look Ichang, but leaves more rounded without large petiole; maybe like Ilya said, the ichangensis is zygotic and some of my seedlings will be different from mother plant. Maybe this is why Florian's plant makes different fruit from his mother plant.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Florian on February 01, 2018, 12:17:55 PM
My plant is grafted. I believe it was 4/5 old when I got it and it was already flowering and fruiting.
I believe it does come from the mother plant pictured but I am not 100% sure. Will have to ask.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 12, 2018, 11:01:41 AM
I have an Ichang Papeda IVIA in my Viennese garden (7b/8a Austria) growing on its own roots. It is now five years in ground and never got damaged in winter. Last year it had to take a whole month of freezing temperatures. Ultimate low was -12C. No protection at all. The offspring of 2017 is totally without spines that's why I hope it will flower the first time this year. A second plant in pot has bloomed in last summer. They come from seed I've got from Bernhard Voss.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on February 12, 2018, 11:59:12 AM
Ichangensis is not true from seeds, so I suppose your plants are different from mature IVIA sold by  European nurseries.
IVIA has in its collection two different ichangensis: IVIA-358 (http://www.ivia.gva.es/documents/161862582/163677405/358-PAPEDA+DE+ICHANG+FLOR+GRANDE-IVIA-16.pdf/08073fa6-3310-4319-a964-4a25cc9e9cdb)   with big flowers and   IVIA-235 (http://www.ivia.gva.es/documents/161862582/163677405/235-PAPEDA+DE+ICHANG-IVIA-16.pdf/baae659b-bc27-490d-a6ac-2023b19c2a1a) with small flowers.
It is  IVIA-358 that gives almost seedless fruits of rather good quality.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 13, 2018, 07:13:15 AM
Thank you! I knew they don't come true, but my second plant which bloomed already produced a tiny fruit (that fell off) and the shape was very IVIA-like (so to say) But -to be true- the two plants differ a little bit. Let's see. In any case the one in my garden is quite hardy. It took -15 without protection as a young plant. Now it is more than 1m high and new branches miss any spines. That is strange and does not match with the potted tree.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: mikkel on February 13, 2018, 07:51:10 AM
Robert, do you have a picture of your Ichang Papeda?
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 13, 2018, 03:40:14 PM
Mikkel yes, but I should make a better one. Young leaves are red or reddish. Very interesting is, that mature branches seem to be thornless. At least on the one Ichang papeda in ground. The other one potted has spines. It has flowered 2017 the first time.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Florian on February 14, 2018, 06:47:58 AM
Welcome, Robert! I'd also love to see pictures of your plants.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 15, 2018, 07:54:36 AM
This is my bad picture (https://s9.postimg.cc/4b2zlyrvz/IVIA.jpg)
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 15, 2018, 07:58:20 AM
As you might see the twigs on top (they are the youngest) do not have thorns. I guess they will flower this year. As I mentioned the flush is red.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: mikkel on February 15, 2018, 08:02:58 AM
Thanks! Nice plant!
Are fruits of your I.P. IVIA like other I.P. IVIAs?  Are they consumable?
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on February 15, 2018, 08:03:12 AM
Is it possible that some seeds from Ichangensis fruit may produce a true Ichangensis? It can self pollinate, no?  If not, it is probably worth trying to plant seeds from Ichangensis fruit to get more random cold-hardy hybrids, right? 
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 15, 2018, 08:20:23 AM
Mikkel wrote: Are fruits of your I.P. IVIA like other I.P. IVIAs?  Are they consumable?

I did not yet have fruits on this plant. One tiny fruit appeared on my potted IVIA (which is a bit different) but fell off. It resembled an IVIA-fruit. which reminds me of Melarosa Lemon.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on February 15, 2018, 09:10:44 AM
Robert,
Do you remember the size of its flowers?
IVIA from Lenzi nursery has enormous  flowers with pink hue.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on February 15, 2018, 09:15:29 AM
Is it possible that some seeds from Ichangensis fruit may produce a true Ichangensis? It can self pollinate, no?  If not, it is probably worth trying to plant seeds from Ichangensis fruit to get more random cold-hardy hybrids, right?
Yes indeed, when self-pollinated it will give ichangensis plants,  but they will be different from each other. This species is very heterogeneous, with flowers of varying colors and sizes, from tall trees to small bushes.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 15, 2018, 09:35:52 AM
Ilya, the flower was not very big. But it was its first flower ever and there was only one flower on my potted tree. The one in ground has much bigger leaves and maybe will have bigger flowers. In fact it is very interesting that C ichangensis from seed is that heterogenous. Every single grain should be grown!  :D
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Florian on February 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
Flowers on mine aren't enormous either but they do have a pink hue. And new growth is reddish.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on February 16, 2018, 10:11:14 AM
Thanks for the information, Ilya. I'm growing seeds from two different Ichangensis trees and noticed some seedlings have large petiole and some from other location don't have petiole and resemble an orange or other  mandarin leaf. They are all narrow and pointy leaves though, online the Ichang lemon seedlings growing next to them, which have rounded larger leaves in comparison.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 16, 2018, 10:43:40 AM
Citradia, interesting that ohne of your Papedas does not have winged petioles. If you take a close look at my (verx bad) picture you can see that there are no wings on the quite big leaves on the upright (highest) twig. The youngest leaves are much bigger than older foliage and they do not have winged petioles and there are no thorns. Very unusual for Ichang papeda, I suppose.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on February 16, 2018, 02:02:48 PM
Well Zitrusgaerner, it sounds to me according to Ilya, that almost all seedlings from Ichangensis are actually hybrids of Ichangensis, so our plants aren't true Ichang papeda, no?
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: mikkel on February 16, 2018, 02:10:10 PM
still true Ichang Papedas but not identical ones :)
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Ilya11 on February 16, 2018, 02:42:38 PM
It really depends if it is flowering alone or bees and bumblebees are hybridizing it with other citruses :-*
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 16, 2018, 03:32:31 PM
I suppose yo are right, Citradia. Obviously this hybrid is hardy enough for my climate that's the point.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Citradia on February 16, 2018, 07:48:59 PM
Well I hope my seedlings prove to be hardy and produce descent quality fruit too. May all our papedas be blessed.
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 18, 2018, 11:40:23 AM
Some better pictures (hope so) of my outdoor Ichang papeda IVIA.

 (https://s26.postimg.cc/n145xrsv9/SAM_5087.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/n145xrsv9/)

(https://s26.postimg.cc/97ft8t80l/SAM_5089.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/97ft8t80l/)

(https://s26.postimg.cc/q7yphk5n9/SAM_5093.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q7yphk5n9/)
Title: Re: Ichang Papeda search.
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on February 18, 2018, 11:52:57 AM
Potted Ichang papeda IVIA. Of same age as outdoor in ground specimen.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/yg58g2hpx/SAM_5096.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/yg58g2hpx/)

(https://s26.postimg.cc/b1x949pjp/SAM_5097.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/b1x949pjp/)

(https://s26.postimg.cc/elj6u6n5h/SAM_5104.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/elj6u6n5h/)