Lemon Zest Seedling Project

[Guanabanus]

The idea about planting a mango seed directly into the ground (so not in a pot), to get a good taproot to help the tree establish sooner / be more drought resistant, probably has merit.  Greater ease of international travel with a seed versus a whole plant is also a fact.

Add big question marks to the other proposed reasons above.

Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.

[zands]

The idea about planting a mango seed directly into the ground (so not in a pot), to get a good taproot to help the tree establish sooner / be more drought resistant, probably has merit.  Grater ease of international travel with a seed versus a whole plant is also a fact.

Add big question marks to the other proposed reasons above.

Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.

Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.

BSbullie should read your words. I have been exterminating on seedlings like this. Full sun is very interesting as another way to shorten the juvenile period and get the mango tree to fruiting

[bsbullie]

The idea about planting a mango seed directly into the ground (so not in a pot), to get a good taproot to help the tree establish sooner / be more drought resistant, probably has merit.  Grater ease of international travel with a seed versus a whole plant is also a fact.

Add big question marks to the other proposed reasons above.

Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.

Pruning two or three times a year, to make a seedling short and bushy, in very full sun, can shorten the juvenile period.

BSbullie should read your words. I have been exterminating on seedlings like this. Full sun is very interesting as another way to shorten the juvenile period and get the mango tree to fruiting

I should read his words, meaning???

"I have been exterminating on seedlings like this"  English my boy, speak english...   

[zands]

You know what I meant but the important thing is Mr Har confirmed what I was saying before about dedicated tip pruning shortening the mango juvenile stage. He also had more ideas for doing this. (shortening the mango juvenile stage)

Listen to him and you will learn. BTW where is Mr Orange Sherbet mango guy?

[bsbullie]

You know what I meant but the important thing is Mr Har confirmed what I was saying before about dedicated tip pruning shortening the mango juvenile stage. He also had more ideas for doing this. (shortening the mango juvenile stage)

Listen to him and you will learn. BTW where is Mr Orange Sherbet mango guy?

Sorry, truly have no idea what you are referring to.   If you think I am not a proponent of tip pruning,  better do some homework.  The search feature will reveal posts that may shock you.

[simon_grow]

Here is an update of my Lemon Zest seedling mangos. As I posted before, two seedlings came up from one seed, it appeared that each seedling was attached to each half of the seed so I could not tell which was the clone. After the second, slower seedling popped up, I noticed that there was a seam in the trunk of the slower growing seedling.

I have noticed this seam in other poly embryonic mangos before and I wonder if this is an indication of the clone? The true leaves on these seedlings are too young and malformed to determine which, if any of the seedlings is the clone but my guess so far is that the slower growing seedling with the stem and bent trunk is the clone based on early observation of the structure of the leaves.

Does anyone else have updates on their Lemon Zest seedlings? Do you notice a seem in any of the seedlings that came up? Lemon Zest may be a good poly mango to grow when trying to determine which seedling is a clone due to the unique wavy structure of its leaves. This characteristic may be used after the first true leaves are formed. Does anyone else notice a seam on any of the poly seedlings you are growing? Thanks!
Simon

[simon_grow]

The seam I'm referring to can be seen in the third picture.

Simon

[gnappi]

Good luck with your seeds and multi-grafts.  I wasn't overly impressed with LZ's flavor, but it could be an off year.  I also noticed LZ had a lot of fruit drops and some splits on my tree.  It is also a vertical grower (as opposed to compact).  The sri lanka weevils also seem to prefer the LZ tree leaves over some other mango varieties.  Knowing what I know now, I might not have planted it.  But it is in the ground and producing fruit, so I am content.

MC,

Thanks for your observations /opinions. Some may not realize that contentment comes with a resignation and acceptance of facts as they are for you, not as they are for the multitudes. I'm of the same mind with Carambola I planted out.

[behlgarden]

I love LZ and for that reason I grafted it onto my aggressive alphonso.  I also put the seed into ground and got 7 sprouts. I also have fruit punch seedling that is mono embryonic and coco cream that is polyembryonic.

[simon_grow]

Here's another update of my Lemon Zest Mango. The original seedlings got too heavy and layed down a bit so I'm going to stake them up. I also plan on planting them directly into the ground soon.

Strangely, I noticed that many new growths are coming from The base of one of the seedlings and lots of other new growths appear to be coming from the original seed although I'm not sure because I don't want to disturb them at this time.

I already have two grafted Lemon Zest mango trees but I love this variety so much that I grafted three scions onto my Manilla cocktail tree and all three grafts took and are pushing new growth.

For anyone wondering why I'm even planting out this seed, it is mostly due to curiosity but also because I want a big LZ tree and grafted trees seem to grow very slowly for me so I figure that planting a seedling of a poly mango variety might get me a bigger tree.

There are many threads regarding which seedling from a poly mango is the the clone and I'm not sure that my one Lemon Zest mango seed will answer any of the question but I will be very happy if I get fruit from one of the seedlings that tastes similar to a PPK/LZ/OS. In hindsight, I should have planted this seed directly into the ground where I want it to grow but I have animals digging in my yard and didn't want to risk my one and only seed.

This seedling has been neglected and the pot has been knocked over a couple of times so the seedlings are not very pretty or symmetrical.

Simon

[behlgarden]

"which seedling from a poly mango is the the clone"

from what I read I concluded that no one really knows how to figure this out, but some claim they know how to do it, but its not clear!

[fyliu]

There is a physical way to definitely figure this out that works almost 100% of the time, like I posted before. Just take apart the seed carefully. But, depending on the stage of growth, it's gets harder if you want the plant to survive the inspection.
It's not exactly 100% because the grower can be careless in taking it apart.

[behlgarden]

so is the least aggressive OR the most aggressive growing seedling the clone?

[simon_grow]

Fang, I vaguely recall reading the method you are talking about but I had two seedlings come up and each seedling came up from each half of the seed.

Behl, I never figured out which seedling is the clone. I've read the posts on this forum and I'm still confused. This is one of the reasons I'm growing out all the seedlings coming up. I've also read reports on this forum that seedlings from Poly varieties don't come out exactly like the parent. I believe Gary in Palm Springs has a Nam Doc Mai and Harry in Florida has a Manilla mango.

Simon

[behlgarden]

I am growing seedlings of kesar from india, lemon zest, coconut cream, and fruit punch.

[fyliu]

Simon, if they're both growing directly out of single pieces of seed tissue, then they should both be clones. The embryo could have died sometime after fertilization. It had to be fertilized for the fruit to start growing. You should just ask Leo. It's the people in SD that told me how to figure it out.

Looking at the vigor of the seedlings is not reliable in all cases. Most of the time the clones have will have less vigor due to the fertilized embryo being attached to 2 cotyledons. Clones come out of just single pieces of the seed. So the embryo has 2 food sources and each clone has 1 food source. The complication is that there's some degree of randomness in the division of seed tissues. So the chunk of the seed the clone grows from has a small chance of actually being massive, which allows the clone to be as vigorous or more than the embryo in a small percentage of poly seeds. So that's why it's not reliable.

The better way is to pull the seedlings apart to inspect which one is attached to cotyledons by thin connectors ("umbilical cords" to the food sources). Each clone grow directly out of a single piece of tissue, no connection to other pieces.

There's an optimal time to be doing this though, which is before they grow a lot of roots that can be damaged. Just drop the whole thing into a large bucket and the buoyancy will reduce the chances of hurting the seedlings. The clones are less easily damaged. There's a greater chance you might lose the true embryo.

[Zeeth]

Simon, if they're both growing directly out of single pieces of seed tissue, then they should both be clones. The embryo could have died sometime after fertilization. It had to be fertilized for the fruit to start growing. You should just ask Leo. It's the people in SD that told me how to figure it out.

Looking at the vigor of the seedlings is not reliable in all cases. Most of the time the clones have will have less vigor due to the fertilized embryo being attached to 2 cotyledons. Clones come out of just single pieces of the seed. So the embryo has 2 food sources and each clone has 1 food source. The complication is that there's some degree of randomness in the division of seed tissues. So the chunk of the seed the clone grows from has a small chance of actually being massive, which allows the clone to be as vigorous or more than the embryo in a small percentage of poly seeds. So that's why it's not reliable.

The better way is to pull the seedlings apart to inspect which one is attached to cotyledons by thin connectors ("umbilical cords" to the food sources). Each clone grow directly out of a single piece of tissue, no connection to other pieces.

There's an optimal time to be doing this though, which is before they grow a lot of roots that can be damaged. Just drop the whole thing into a large bucket and the buoyancy will reduce the chances of hurting the seedlings. The clones are less easily damaged. There's a greater chance you might lose the true embryo.

Thank you for your information! Everything that I've read has been in line with what you're saying.

[simon_grow]

Anyone have updates on their Lemon Zest seedlings or any other Zill polyembryonic variety?

Our grafted trees here in SoCal have a horrible and energy wasting habit of flowering in its first Winter. By planting seedlings of Polyembryonic varieties, I hope to overcome this challenge while at the same time guarantee that I will have good tasting fruit that is similar, if not identical to the parent without having to graft(because of the flowering issue from mature scions).

I hope to completely bypass the issue of "which seedling is the clone, which is zygotic" by keeping at least two seedlings arising from a single seed. Assuming that there is only one zygote per fruit/seed, I should have a good chance of getting a true clone. Assumptions are usually the mother of all f ups and this is why I would like to gather more information from forum members regarding any additional information, observations or pictures you might have.

When planting Polyembryonic seedlings, one must be aware that multiple sprouts can arise from a single segment of a seed and these two sprouts should have the same genotype and should not be counted as two seperate seedlings. Even Monoembryonic seeds can and often do have multiple sprouts coming from a single segment of the seed.

For my Polyembryonic seeds, I usually start them in a double ziplock bag, wrapped with a slightly moist paper towel and put on top of a seedling heat mat. By sprouting in this manner, I can observe and ensure that there is at least two seedlings arising from two seperate segments of the seed.

The original seedlings from the start of this thread were neglected and died and several others were given away to friends so I only have a few seedlings left that were planted last year. One observation I have experienced first hand is that it may be possible to differentiate which seedling is the true clone for unique Polyembryonic varieties like LZ by damaging and and smelling the juice coming from the leaves.

When I damaged the leaves to a LZ seedling, it smelled identical to the smell of the damaged leaves from a true grafted LZ. My current seedlings are too small right now but I also expect to see the wavy appearance of the typical LZ leaves in the true clones.

Even if one were able to select the true clone, there can be mutations and genetic drift that alters the phenotype and genotype.

I know there are lots of people that planted seeds from Zill Polyembryonic varieties and it would be great if you can post pictures or provide additional information or observations. I'll post pictures of my tiny seedlings next time I'm in the yard.

Simon

[behlgarden]

Simon, I have coconut cream, Fruit Punch, and Lemon Zest seedlings into its 3rd year starting is Summer. Fruit Punch is a failure, the seeling grew mere 15 inches and refuses to grow.  Coco Cream like its parent is slow grower and appears droopy and fragile, grew only 14 inches. both are in ground.

On the other hand, Lemon Zest that sprouted 7 babies, 5 died and 2 survived. I did not separate them, one is 6 feet tall with 3/4" diameter trunk, other is abut 15 inches tall. I will let both to into maturity. No blooms yet.

[simon_grow]

Thanks for the report Behl! The lack of flowering is a great blessing in disguise. Every Lemon Zest, or any mature scion, has bloomed within the first winter unless it was kept warm in a greenhouse or in my case, the garage under lights. My Coconut Cream seedlings were all curly like a pretzel and died in Winter when I got frost.

Simon

[simon_grow]

Here's a couple different Lemon Zest seedlings. The single seedling originally had another smaller sprout that died but this remaining sprout has the LZ sap smell when the leaves are damaged.

This picture is LZ with two remaining sprouts, one larger and one much smaller, both have the strong LZ sap smell.



Here's some Sweet Tart seedlings




Nam Doc Mai


The reason why they all look raggedy is because I planted the seeds and left them neglected for about 6 months. They were buried under weeds until I pulled them out last week.

Simon

[WGphil]

My girlfriend and I planted Orange Sherbet this way.
Both had four sprouts that are now about two ft tall.

We will wait on them to fruit to see what happens.  Anything good will be left alone anything bad will be removed or top worked.

Let you know in a couple years.

[simon_grow]

Wgphil,

It may be worth a try to break a leaf from each seedling and smelling the sap to see if it's citrusy. Do you happen to have a Lemon Zest? If you do, I wonder how different the Orange Sherbet seedlings leaves smell compared to the Lemon Zest?

Simon

[WGphil]

Simon

I do have a Lemon Zest and just went out and compared.   I picked a leaf off the Lemon Zest first to have a base smell.  The citrus smell you know so well.  Then I picked a leaf off the nearest OS seedling and it was amazing.   The citrus smell is way stronger.   I then tried the others with two of them being near the LZ in smell and one other with the stronger smell of citrus.

It was hard to tell the lesser smells after I tried the much stronger.  They may be less or more and I will try later without the stronger ones first.

Without a doubt the OS has a very good smell that is stronger than the LZ.

[simon_grow]

That sounds really promising, please save me one or two scions when your tree is large enough:)

Simon