Author Topic: Double stone grafting for Mango (Read 70196 times)

simon_grow · « **Reply #150 on:** June 17, 2016, 02:02:22 PM »

Sapote, if the scion is too small, I offset the scion at a slight angle so that the scion contacts both rootstocks.

Here is quick update. I have been foliar feeding my DSGed trees with nitrogen fertilizer along with ground applications of nitrogen fertilizer in hopes of a vegetative flush but I'm still getting mixed blooms on half of my DSGed trees. I still get nightly low temperatures around 58F degrees but there is a warm up expected and nightly lows are predicted to stay above 60F for the foreseeable future.

My DSGed trees planted at other warmer locations around California have started to veg out starting about a month ago. Here's a DSGed Jumbo Kesar that is starting to get out. The fruit were removed about 2-3 weeks ago.

Simon

simon_grow · « **Reply #151 on:** June 17, 2016, 02:25:31 PM »

Tomorrow will be the one year anniversary of my first attempted DSG, one year from grafting, not from planting into the ground. The tree is a Lemon Zest grafted onto double Kent seedling rootstock and it was my most vigorously growing DSGed tree until it tried to push growth during a period of frost and hail. All tender new growth that pushed during this period was fried or severely stunted. After getting frozen back, this tree has not pushed a vegetative growth but the tree is currently swelling buds all over the place. Instead of growing out the canopy, this tree seems to have put all its energy on root and trunk expansion.

This tree has been in the ground for less than a year and the trunk is over one and a half inches wide! The nightly lows are expected to remain above 60F for the foreseeable future so I believe it will have a strong vegetative flush very soon. Here's a picture of the trunk.

Simon

simon_grow · « **Reply #152 on:** June 18, 2016, 07:18:37 PM »

I just visited my inlaws house where I planted a DSGed Lemon Zest on double Indian rootstock. Their tree also pushed a gegetative growth in the winter and the central leader died back but it is growing really well below the damaged area. This tree is planted in part sun and only gets several hours of direct sunlight a day. There are seollen buds on this tree that look like they will open up very soon.

Simon

knlim000 · « **Reply #153 on:** June 19, 2016, 10:53:27 PM »

you hve become an export Simon. Now, do one for me too. pleeezzzz

vanman · « **Reply #154 on:** June 20, 2016, 01:30:44 PM »

Hey Simon, I've been reading your post on DSG and I think I will be trying this soon. I'm visiting my parents in LA area and will be taking a Manila Mango tree home with me. Do have any Lemon Zest scion available? Do think the scion will last a few weeks to allow for some seeds to sprout or should I just wait and do it all together. I'll have to pug the tree at 35" tomorrow to get it in the luggage hold. Van

simon_grow · « **Reply #155 on:** June 20, 2016, 04:56:02 PM »

I have the best success rate with my grafts when the scions are extremely fresh. I like to graft the same day I take my scions. I've had success with scions that are about 1 week old but the success rate declines. I have one Lemon Zest tree that I use for scions but it has been picked over by my friends already and the tree is just starting to push out new leaves. You can try to contact me if you are in the area and I can take a look at my tree. I do not ship plant material because I get too many requests.

Simon

vanman · « **Reply #156 on:** June 20, 2016, 07:56:28 PM »

Thanks Simon. I was in SD Thurs to Sat, but I had family stuff to do. The weather was perfect last week. I'm back at my parents house in Whittier and it's 100 degrees today and they are all dying. When I get back to Tulsa tomorrow it'll be like that for me the rest of the summer.

Maybe you've already commented on this, but what is your opinion of using ataulfo and/or tommy adkins for seeds? These are probably the most accessible mangos (thus the reason for the lemon zest) for me. Van

simon_grow · « **Reply #157 on:** June 20, 2016, 09:03:45 PM »

Tommy Atkins works great for rootstock and Ataulfo is good but initially the growth of polyembryonic rootstocks is slower from what I have observed. I've planted several hundred mono and poly seeds over the last couple years and the rate of growth of the polyembryonic seedlings( Champaigne, Ataulfo, Manilla) is approximately half that of the Monoembryonic seedlings.

In general, I neglect my seeds and I do not fertilize them so results may vary depending on the husbandry and attention given to the seedlings. The growth of the trunk is one of the major differences I've seen between mono and poly seedlings. This DSGed Gary mango is on double Champaigne rootstock and the combined trunk measures under 1/2 inch and stands at 10 1/2 inches. This DSGed Jumbo Kesar is on double Kent/Haden rootstock and it's combined trunk diameter is about 3/4 inch and it stands at 17 1/2 inches tall. This is not an apples to apples comparison because the Gary is in a pot and the Jumbo Kesar is in the ground but I have many DSGed plants and I have observed this trend. On the extreme end, my LZ on double Kent seedling is a little over 1 3/4 inches wide.

Simon

simon_grow · « **Reply #158 on:** June 20, 2016, 09:28:36 PM »

Here is a bed of Champaigne seedlings, notice how small the plants are and how thin the trunks are.

Here is a Champaigne seedling from last year, it was a runt and has a crooked trunk so I did not use it for rootstock, it's approximately 7 inches tall.

Here is a Keitt seedling from last year, it was a runt and had a crooked trunk so I did not use it for rootstock and its approximately twice as tall as the polyembryonic Champaigne and the Keitts trunk looks to be about double the thickness of the Champaigne.

I don't want to discourage people from using polyembryonic seedlings because they may eventually catch up and there are some reports of Polyembryonic mangos having greater resistance to Anthracnose. What does better in my yard may not necessarily perform the same in your yard.

For my upcoming experiments, I plan on using triple rootstocks in an attempt to utilize the best attributes of each particular rootstock. One thing I noticed is that Lemon Zest is a fast growing polyembryonic variety that seems to be resistant to fungal diseases in my yard.

I planted a LZ seed a while back http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12023.0
And started to lose interest for various reasons so I put it in the corner of my yard where it gets shaded by the nearby fence and I also decided to plant a bunch of Tomatos completely covering it to see how it would stand up to diseases. Well, the Tomatos eventually died out from probably Fusarium, virticillium, early and late blight but the LZ seedling is still alive. It's been completely neglected and rarely gets water but it's still alive. At one point, the LZ seedling was completely overgrown and burried under the tomato leaves.

Simon

barath · « **Reply #159 on:** June 29, 2016, 08:01:21 PM »

Quote from: simon_grow on June 20, 2016, 09:28:36 PM

I don't want to discourage people from using polyembryonic seedlings because they may eventually catch up and there are some reports of Polyembryonic mangos having greater resistance to Anthracnose. What does better in my yard may not necessarily perform the same in your yard.

About this I'm still wondering how we might get our hands on Laverne-type seeds (Corriente?) to use as rootstock given its suitability to California soils. It seems their trees don't produce true to type, because I know of two folks who planted Home Depot Laverne trees that got different looking fruit (I'm not 100% sure though).

So I wonder if we can figure out where they get their seeds or get scions of their seed-producing mother tree cultivar and start producing our own seeds. Any ideas on that? I'd love to be able to try DSG with two Laverne-type seedlings or a Laverne and a Kent.

simon_grow · « **Reply #160 on:** June 29, 2016, 08:42:10 PM »

Barath, I feel the moral of the story is that it really doesn't matter what type of seed you use as long as it's not whatever rootstock they use in Florida. There was a thread here a while back, I think warren was part of it, but several members actually visited Lavern and was able to see how they propogate their trees. It turns out, if I recall correctly, their mango trees are not clones but planted from seed and that explains the variability in the seedling trees.

Remember that Leo Manuel has huge, highly productive trees and most of his trees are various random seeds he planted. He currently has many Kensington Pride seedlings. I have been advocating Lavern Manilla Mango trees as rootstock only because they are readily available and easily distinguished from the Florida grafted trees which don't have the Lavern tag on them.

If I compared rate of trunk growth between my Kent seedlings vs Lavern Manilla seedling, my Kent seedling is actually growing faster than the Lavern Manilla seedling.

Some people have difficulty sprouting mango seeds or have an immediate need for rootstock and the Lavern Manilla is excellent rootstock that you can easily find and even with the variation of the seedlings, trees grown in California have adapted very well. Once I get more data, I will feel more comfortable recommending Kent, Tommy, Haden, Keitt, Manilla/Ataulfo/Champaigne seedlings as rootstock for California. Preliminary evidence show that Kent may work as well or perhaps even better than Lavern Manilla.

Simon

barath · « **Reply #161 on:** June 29, 2016, 10:13:05 PM »

Quote from: simon_grow on June 29, 2016, 08:42:10 PM

Barath, I feel the moral of the story is that it really doesn't matter what type of seed you use as long as it's not whatever rootstock they use in Florida. There was a thread here a while back, I think warren was part of it, but several members actually visited Lavern and was able to see how they propogate their trees. It turns out, if I recall correctly, their mango trees are not clones but planted from seed and that explains the variability in the seedling trees.

Remember that Leo Manuel has huge, highly productive trees and most of his trees are various random seeds he planted. He currently has many Kensington Pride seedlings. I have been advocating Lavern Manilla Mango trees as rootstock only because they are readily available and easily distinguished from the Florida grafted trees which don't have the Lavern tag on them.

If I compared rate of trunk growth between my Kent seedlings vs Lavern Manilla seedling, my Kent seedling is actually growing faster than the Lavern Manilla seedling.

Some people have difficulty sprouting mango seeds or have an immediate need for rootstock and the Lavern Manilla is excellent rootstock that you can easily find and even with the variation of the seedlings, trees grown in California have adapted very well. Once I get more data, I will feel more comfortable recommending Kent, Tommy, Haden, Keitt, Manilla/Ataulfo/Champaigne seedlings as rootstock for California. Preliminary evidence show that Kent may work as well or perhaps even better than Lavern Manilla.

Simon

Interesting! Ok, well I'll stock up on Kent now that they're available for cheap.

kh0110 · « **Reply #162 on:** June 29, 2016, 10:27:10 PM »

It looks like Devgad Alphonso mango trees are often multiple-rootstock grafted trees.
http://devgadmango.com/devgad-mango-journey/

But 9 years? That's too long for me!

simon_grow · « **Reply #163 on:** June 30, 2016, 01:36:51 AM »

Thera, thanks for the article, I did not know that so many of the Devgad Alphonso mangos I've been eating were possibly grown on double rootstocks! Several forum members and I have been pondering why the taste of Alphonsos grown in India taste sweeter than those grown here in California. Some have suggested that the red clay in the best Alphonso growing regions of India play a role and I wouldn't be surprised if double rootstocks enhances the uptake of more nutrients and minerals than trees grown on a single rootstock.

the main problem I have with my double rootstock trees is that they flower and attempt to hold fruit at less than one year old. I posted several pictures of my DSGed trees holding tons of marble sized fruit in earlier posts on this thread.

With temps in the upper 80-90+F, my trees are finally starting to grow vegetatively although I'm still removing an occasional bloom. The growth on my DSGed trees have really been hyper aggressive and not proportional to the size of the tree. In other words, the growth appears more like its double what you would expect for a tree of that size. Instead of pushing a single apical bud as a main stem, I'm getting multiple buds pushing and fully vegging out which is excellent for those individuals wanting very low scaffold branches. For those wanting the standard 3-4 feet of trunk before scaffold branches, you can simply remove lower growth and select a single central leader. I'll post pics in the coming week.

Simon

fyliu · « **Reply #164 on:** June 30, 2016, 02:20:44 PM »

Good to hear that other seedlings might work for California as well.

The LaVerne seedling I got was labeled as manilla but was obviously not grafted and was cheaper than the grafted trees. I think grafted ones were around $50 and the seedling was $27. I'm just making up the numbers but they're more or less there.

I'll experiment with this now that I have some land.

vanman · « **Reply #165 on:** July 02, 2016, 09:51:13 PM »

Here are my Tommy Atkins seeds I started about a week and a half ago. I think the one that is really brown is not viable. Do you put them in pot after they sprout or do you take them straight out of the bag to graft?

I may start some Ataulfo and mix the rootstocks. Van

simon_grow · « **Reply #166 on:** July 03, 2016, 12:50:10 AM »

I start the majority of my seeds for Double Stone Grafts in raised beds or pots during the Summer and use the wet towel in plastic bags during cooler weather or when I need seedlings extra fast.

Once the seed has sprouted, select two seedlings and plant them as close together as you can in a pot. Put the pot in a sunny location and perform the DSG when the leaves are still bronze or red color, preferably before the leaves turn green although it will still work when in the leaves are in the green stage.

If you are considering using one polyembryonic seedling and one monoembryonic seedling, you may want to use an older polyembryonic seedling so that the polyembryonic seedling has additional time to grow larger and better match the size of the monoembryonic seedling.

Simon

Guanabanus · « **Reply #167 on:** July 03, 2016, 09:19:18 AM »

Where can I find the detailed discussion of what is wrong with "whatever they graft on in Florida"?

simon_grow · « **Reply #168 on:** July 03, 2016, 09:53:31 AM »

Hey Har, I'm giving my personal observations along with countless interviews with many mango growers from around California. There are at least several threads that discuss the slow growth and droopy tendency of the growth of mango trees purchased from Florida and planted in California. I'll try to find some of them and update this thread.

There are some reports of vigorous varieties performing better on Florida rootstock. For example, VP, LZ and for some people Alphonso.

Simon

simon_grow · « **Reply #169 on:** July 03, 2016, 02:08:11 PM »

Guanabanus · « **Reply #170 on:** July 04, 2016, 12:40:42 AM »

Thank you for all the links! I only got through half of them tonight.

simon_grow · « **Reply #171 on:** July 04, 2016, 02:01:37 AM »

You're very welcome Har. Thank you so much for always volunteering your expertise to help forum members here, it is greatly appreciated!

Just this year, I've noticed another performance difference between my Florida grafted Lemon Zest and my Lemon Zest grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock. My LZ on Florida rootstock was planted into the ground about two years ago and I took a couple scions from that tree and grafted it onto my Lavern multigraft Manilla rootstock tree. The LZ scions on Manilla rootstock grew with extreme vigor and this year, I allowed it to hold several fruit.

The fruit on the LZ grafted onto Manilla rootstock grows and looks normal and is much larger than the fruit on the LZ tree on Florida rootstock. The fruit on the Florida rootstock is much smaller and rounder, I'm guessing these may be nubbins. Also, the fruit on Florida rootstock are cracking and falling off at a very high rate, the fruit are about 1-1.5 inches long when they fall off. Here are some pictures for comparison.
LZ fruit on Florida rootstock

LZ fruit on Lavern Manilla rootstock

Simon

simon_grow · « **Reply #172 on:** July 04, 2016, 02:22:14 AM »

Here are some updates of a few of my DSGed trees. This Jumbo Kesar was grafted onto newly sprouted seedlings on 09/18/15 and planted into the ground on 10/21/15.

Here is a Sweet Tart grafted on 09/18/15 and planted into the ground on 10/21/15

Simon

Guanabanus · « **Reply #173 on:** July 04, 2016, 03:23:21 PM »

I hadn't seen Lemon Zest doing a branch of nubbins like that.

JF · « **Reply #174 on:** July 04, 2016, 04:01:46 PM »

Quote from: simon_grow on July 04, 2016, 02:01:37 AM

You're very welcome Har. Thank you so much for always volunteering your expertise to help forum members here, it is greatly appreciated!

Just this year, I've noticed another performance difference between my Florida grafted Lemon Zest and my Lemon Zest grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock. My LZ on Florida rootstock was planted into the ground about two years ago and I took a couple scions from that tree and grafted it onto my Lavern multigraft Manilla rootstock tree. The LZ scions on Manilla rootstock grew with extreme vigor and this year, I allowed it to hold several fruit.

The fruit on the LZ grafted onto Manilla rootstock grows and looks normal and is much larger than the fruit on the LZ tree on Florida rootstock. The fruit on the Florida rootstock is much smaller and rounder, I'm guessing these may be nubbins. Also, the fruit on Florida rootstock are cracking and falling off at a very high rate, the fruit are about 1-1.5 inches long when they fall off. Here are some pictures for comparison.
LZ fruit on Florida rootstock

LZ fruit on Lavern Manilla rootstock

Simon

Same here Simon. My LZ tree from florida that started like gangbuster and grew to 12' in 2.5 years has now regress to 8-9' after two years of dieback. this year it has about 10 fruits meanwhile my LZ grafted onto ataulfo and fake laverne manila are holding LZ in clusters. btw, great job with your DSG's they are progressing very well.

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Author Topic: Double stone grafting for Mango (Read 70196 times)