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Author Topic: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?  (Read 1878 times)

vanman

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How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« on: April 18, 2016, 11:48:18 AM »
I posted this question regarding an avocado in the Tropical fruit section.  Basically the answer was you never know until you try.  So if I'm going to try an avocado, I should be able to do a satsuma as well (maybe even better). 

The current plan is to plant them on the south wall of the green house.  I will put a clear pool cover over the green house in the winter which will extend over the outside trees at least for a few years to get them established. 

I'd like to get Xie Shan.  Anybody know a source for this or will I have to graft it?

Any thoughts? 

Millet

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2016, 03:35:15 PM »
Reading your post I was not sure wether the Xie Shan tree would be on the inside or the outside of the greenhouse. Xie Shan satsuma is an excellent choice.  Grown outside in zone 7 you will still have to protect the tree on very cold nights during the winter.  You can find Xie Shan at Harris Citrus in Florida. They ship.  http://www.harriscitrus.com/store/
 Millet
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 03:38:17 PM by Millet »

vanman

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2016, 04:54:02 PM »
Thanks Millet.  To clarify, I would like to grow it outside and eventually without protection once it gets established.  I wondering if there is enough of a microclimate to make it.  We know that most of the heat of the GH is going out the glass.  So maybe there is just enough heat to get the avocado and the satsuma through the winter. 

I'll check out Harris.  Van

countryboy1981

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2016, 08:24:40 PM »
I doubt it during the colder winters.  I know someone who lost 10+ year old Satsumaa 2 winters ago further north of here (8b) in the border area of 8a/8b.  They take the cold well but once you get into the lower teens you will have issues.  You could do it with protecting on colder nights once it's established.

Millet

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2016, 09:18:49 PM »
countryboy, the person who lost the 10+ satsumas must have been John,  and he grew his inside a tunnel type structure. - Millet

Tom

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2016, 10:13:59 PM »
John didn't loose any Satsumas that winter. He thought he would but only the new grapefruit planting died ! I don't think Xie Shan would make it way up there outside the green house. A Juanita tangerine might after it had some age on it but both should be covered with supplemental heat of some sort to give them a chance to survive in my opinion. It's those periods of 36 hours below freezing that kill !

countryboy1981

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2016, 10:48:39 PM »
countryboy, the person who lost the 10+ satsumas must have been John,  and he grew his inside a tunnel type structure. - Millet

It's no one of this forum that I am aware of.  It could be too difficult to protect a satsuma in upper zone 7, build a structure around the tree and cover with blankets on cold nights.  In really cold nights add an external heat source.

Tom

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2016, 11:42:52 PM »
countryboy1981, could it have been a great grower right outside Dothan that was a peanut scientist before he retired ? Millet and I heard him at the SE Citrus Expo when it was in Alabama. He is a very good grower and using every advantage he can on a sizeable acreage except he doesn't or can't cover all the trees he has. He uses a long piece (144" ? )of spaghetti tubing wrapped around each tree trunk. It's connected to irrigation underground and has an emitter connected in the top of each tree spraying north. He said in earlier tests in very cold weather the water never froze in the tubing and it protected the trunk at least. He seemed worried about wrecking his leaves and limbs if and when they froze but it was a last ditch effort for a worse case scenario. He pioneered the technique and I never heard how he came out after the bad freezes two winters ago. He is the biggest grower off the coast and north of Baldwin and Mobile counties that I know of. That's the two largest counties east of the Mississippi River ! Tom

Delvi83

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2016, 09:36:36 AM »
A 7b, USDA could be a 8a, if you choose a south exposed Wall.....Satsuma is the hardiest edible (and not hybrids with Poncirus) Citrus...the problem is that Satsuma must be in dormancy, if you have warm weather before the cold you could have problems. I think that an adult plant in dormancy could withstand 15F without big injuries.

Tom

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2016, 10:04:57 AM »
I agree. I also think that unusually long periods below freezing can kill. That's what finally killed the mother Juanita tangerine tree that had survived 0* F years before ( near a brick wall ). The mama Juanita was pretty old and too large to protect. Prolonged temps below freezing for about 36 hours killed it. That is unusually long below freezing temps for where the tree was located. Also after a bad cold event I've read that the protective mechanism is 'used up' and the tree is more likely to not survive the next event even if the next event is not as cold as the first event. In other words it might survive 15*F one night but might not survive a week or two later with similar freezing temps. I've seen that and read about it too.  Tom
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 04:45:03 PM by Tom »

vanman

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2016, 12:27:26 AM »
I saw an Arctic Frost and an Orange Frost at Whole Foods today.  They were $13 each.  Any comments on taste?  Seems cheap enough to experiment with.  I think they are on their own root stock since I didn't see a graft line.  I've also order two Xie Shan from Harris. I plan to put one outside with protection at least for a few years. 

Van

eyeckr

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2016, 03:58:47 PM »
I was successful in growing a multi grafted Nuclem and satsumas (Early St Anne, Owari) on a south facing wall of my house for many years up here in the 7b/8a border of Virginia Beach. Initially I did protect the tree until it got too big to protect. At its largest the tree was about 12 ft tall and about 10 ft wide or so. It produced a tremendous amount of the most delicious fruit and we loved it having it while it lasted. Then comes a 20 year freeze that gets down to the single digits for many hours and wipes it out and a large portion of my other inground citrus. Maybe I could have done something to protect it but the size of the tree made it very difficult.  I grafted it up pretty high on trifoliate which helped it survive for as long as it did.  The rootstock did survive and grew out the next year a little. I planned on regrafting onto it then we had a couple more hard winters that eventually sent it to the grave. If you plan on planting a Xie Shan out you might get a few years out of it and a good number of fruit from it as well. When it gets too big to protect it is likely to get wiped out like mine. Just consider it a very risky perennial and enjoy it while it lasts and replant when it freezes out.

I had a Juanita tangerine that did well for a few years too but eventually froze out in the lower teens. I wouldn't rank it much hardier than satsuma. I believe its location at Juanita's house was the key in getting that one to survive.

I still do have a good number of citrus out in the yard that survived but are still rebounding from taking big hits. I would consider these bulletproof for my area. Most all of my trees are grafted but the ones on their own roots that have made it back are a single changsha, yuzu and a thomasville citrangequat. My grafted Keraji trees which I consider a very good tasting fruit are trying to make their way back too.  Other survivors are Glen Citrangedin, Mt Olive Dunstan, Ventura lemandarin, Dimicelli Clem yuz 2-2, Taitri, Ichang lemon, and a few others.

Tracing back to your avocado plans I have had an avocado planted out in my yard for something like 5 years now and it has survived our lowest single digit lows. I did protect it with a comforter and put a light bulb next to it when we got that low. Now it is about 6ft tall and flowering again. I need to mention that it is in a protected area next to my house and greenhouse. It is a cutting grown tree from the large surviving avocado tree in downtown Charleston, SC. Next to it I previously had Joey, Pancho, and about 3 or 4 other 'hardy' avocados that all eventually died off.

I have Artic Frost, Bumper and Orange Frost changsats but have not fully tested them out yet. Small grafts I placed on my inground trees seem to be fairing well. I've been meaning to plant the pottted trees out in the yard since they are on their own roots and would likely come back after a freeze l like my changsha. When they fruited I thought they were all pretty tart but maybe I should've waited a little longer before I sampled them.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:12:18 AM by eyeckr »

Tom

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2016, 04:39:05 PM »
Thanks for a great post. All your posts are always very interesting ! What has been your favorite
mandarin / satsuma in zone 7 ?  I've eaten some very good Owari, Brown's Select and others that were unknown but Kishu and Xie Shan are my favorites. My Kishu got very good very quickly. My Satsumas are too young so far to be great I guess. The best Satsumas I've eaten were grown by other people. As noted elsewhere I've experienced notable differences between different limbs the same year and also differences on the same tree in different years on an older tree. I've got a very young Juanita and was very interested in your observations. How was the Juanita fruit flavor ?  I agree with all you said that I've had any experiences with. Tom
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 04:40:40 PM by Tom »

eyeckr

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2016, 10:39:23 AM »
Thanks for the kind words Tom. I think Nuclem, Kishu, a select changsha, Xie Shan, Brown's select, 88-2 are all tops. I'm probably forgetting a lot of other good ones though. Many of the satsumas varieties do tend to taste about the same in my experience. I had some excellent satsumas from well established trees when I visited my friend Lee Sharp out in Mississippi but cannot recall the varieties he had.

Kishu is definitely our family's favorite and I have been trying to get it re-established out in the yard. I had one grafted out that did well and fruited a few times and then got knocked out about 4 years ago. I think what did it in was that it had a bumper crop right before the winter which made it susceptible to freeze damage.

Juanita makes a very good fruit. I did enjoy the fruit and the tree while I had it. Mine grew pretty columnar and only had branches bend over when fruit were on it. A few of us believe the Juanita tangerine is nothing more than a Ponkan mandarin seedling that was grown out and lucky enough to have been placed in a sheltered spot. If you can get your hands on a good ripe ponkan fruit that's about what it tastes like.

Tom

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2016, 11:23:49 AM »
Thanks for sharing your knowledge ! Tom

Millet

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2016, 11:51:43 AM »
eyeckr, how did the guys trees that were on the tour during the Virginia Beach Expo fair over the hard winters.  He had some quite large Thomisville Citrangequats, and a few other varieties. I would think that they were much too large to protect. - Millet

eyeckr

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2016, 02:01:26 PM »
It's been nearly two years since I visited Dr Bob but when I did I was surprised to see his humongous tiawanica tree looking totally dead. I never expected it to die off even when our temperatures got so low. I think he lost his large changsha trees and his Keraji trees. The Morton was doing fine and the US119 was still alive. I think all of his satsumas died off. I'm pretty sure that his changshas may have come back from the roots. His ungrafted keraji tree may have come back from the roots but the grafted one looked unlikely to come back. I forgot to look when I was there but I think he mentioned to me that his Croxton was still alive too. I am overdue to visit him and will probably do some grafting for him this year and can give a better update. I hope you've been doing well.

Millet

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2016, 03:49:02 PM »
Thanks G. Your always a great help on the forums. Take care.  - Millet

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2016, 12:45:49 PM »
I have tried 3 different cold hardy citrus trees in south-facing locations here in Zone 7A. All flourished at first and then came the last two years' polar vortexes. Morto.

Without protection, sooner or later they will go down.

Tom

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2016, 07:06:53 PM »
Jack, thanks for your input. What varieties did you have and did you do any winter protection ? Welcome to the citrus portion of the tropical fruit forum. Great to have you here ! Tom

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2016, 11:18:55 AM »
Jack, thanks for your input. What varieties did you have and did you do any winter protection ? Welcome to the citrus portion of the tropical fruit forum. Great to have you here ! Tom

A Citrumelo, a Thomasville, and an Ichang. No protection. They all did very well at first and the Thomasville and Ichang both fruited. The last two Winters here have been abnormally brutal and that decimated them.

I am trying one more Ichang, this time flush against the south-facing wall and probably with protection.

Otherwise I will have to be happy with my Flying Dragon, which is flourishing and is the talk of the neighborhood.

shah8

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2016, 11:48:20 PM »
You need to get them bigger.  Especially the citrumello should survive zone 7 temps.

JackLord

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2016, 01:48:25 PM »
You need to get them bigger.  Especially the citrumello should survive zone 7 temps.

The Citrumelo was quite large. And it did survive Zone 7 temps- normal Zone 7 temps. The last two winters have been anything but normal. No Citrus is going to survive temps like the last two winters, particularly 2014-2015.

Citradia

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 09:54:33 PM »
My dunstan citrumelos that went unprotected this past winter defoliated but didn't die back, and they're only 3 ft tall. The two that I tried covering with frost cloth through most of the winter almost died and lost most of they're trunk bark. The trifoliate hybrids and Ichang and nansho dai dai in my high tunnel hardly lost any leaves this past winter with only barrels of water for passive heating. Think I had a low of 10 degrees one night this winter. Lost almost everything the year before when didn't get above freezing all January with low of zero all night long twice. My owari and Kimbrough have survived the past several winters with plastic sheeting, water barrels, and small space heaters controlled by Thermo cubes. The owari and Kimbrough produce well and taste great. I'll try to post pic of one of my dunstan a that went unprotected this winter.


vanman

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 12:05:21 PM »
I planted my artic frost and orange frost satsumas (on trifoliate rootstock) in the ground today.  Why on trifoliate rootstock you ask?  Because I was practicing grafting a few months ago and they took. 

When it starts to get cold, I'll take some of the bricks and surround them so they'll have some radiant heat released later.  I'll also put some Christmas lights on them with a thermal cube. 

I was also thinking about putting some heat tape into the ground or underneath some bricks.  Any thoughts about that?

Van




Citradia

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2016, 09:46:50 PM »
Van. Bless your heart and your trees. As a fellow zone 7a/6b'er, I must advise you to protect those baby trees from the freeze for the next few winters. I tried planting my two-year old trifoliate hybrid seedlings and a Changsha cutting grafted on trifoliate one summer and covered them with plastic sheeting over wire dome cages that I ventilated on days with highs in 50's, and heated them with heat lamp bulbs on freezing nights. They all did well until I took the plastic off and heat lamps off in spring. These trees made it without dropping leaves all winter with lows in single digits, but I lost the Changsha mandarin graft after only two nights on separate weeks with lows of 19 degrees when unprotected. The trifoliate hybrids were unaffected. My 4-ft tall Kimbrough satsuma was unscathed on year in its plastic covered enclosure when the power was out all day and night and of course it's space heater was not working, with a high of 19 degrees during the day; I don't know how cold it got that night because I abandoned my home that afternoon to shelter at friends house at lower elevation, since ground covered in snow and ice. The water barrel in greenhouse with Kimbrough probably saved it that night, that and fact it was not a new graft at that point. New grafts more susceptible to cold.

vanman

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2016, 03:20:30 PM »
Thanks for the advise and info citradia.  My eventual goal is to keep them outside with minimal effort.  I realize they may be the most vulnerable and sensitive the first few years.  I've got some other rootstock growing which I will graft (sour orange, FD and PT) onto down the road.  I'll also root some on their own.  I'm hoping that the microclimate will be enough to sustain them. The big problem are the polar vortexes that may last a week keeping temperatures below freezing for a long time and the next week it may be 70's for a week.  This is why I may be putting some heat tape in the ground around the roots. 

Oh well,  what else do we have to do with our time and money.  Van

Pancrazio

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2016, 07:43:17 PM »
Barrels of water are an cheap, easy to set up, and surprisingly efficient way to keep the temperature high under a enclosure. In last 4 years i have been growing a mango in zone 8 with nothing else than barrels of water (around 120 gallons) to keep it warm, and sun during the day to warm the barrels. And i live at 44N so my sun is pretty low during winter, night are pretty long, and also since i'm in a mediterranean climate, often overcast. Still...

The principle to give minimal effort is a good one. Over the years a plant has to prove itself Exceptionally Good and Worthwhile to justify all the time spent, and the effort done to keep them alive. Eventually the novelty effect wears out, so you'll be willing to do so much effort just if the plant is really good, or the effort is sustainable - evenmore if you plan to grow several plants.

However when attempting something hard (like growing a plant outside its growing zone), i think that first you've got to attempt to reach you goal, then simplify. For instance the first year with my mango i used 1 gal container to store the water instead of barrels because the 1 gal containers were more efficient (in my imagination) for heat exchanging. They may have been; but the work of filling then one by one was simply too much time consuming and tedious; so the next year they were gone. The plant survived and i got some simplification.
Of course simplification can't go on forever, but you get the idea. You get your plant to live first, then you try to push the most lazyness it can stand before dying.  ;)
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I want to buy/trade to get the following mango scions: Florigon/Rosa/Francis Hargrave. Avocado: Mexicola. Contact me in PM if interested.

LaCasaVerde

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Re: How about a satsuma in zone 7 on a south wall?
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2016, 11:12:41 AM »
Vanman,

You need to go ahead and make a cold frame now. Have 6 mil poly handy and cover it. Christmas lights around the tree and on the ground. Secondary 175 incandecent stake lighting as well for additional heating with sufficent clearence from covering.. Bricks alone will not provide enough heat. Perhaps heated as you suggest but then only effective for juvenile trees.   Ive built many cold frames of different sizes citrus  trees all the way up to 16 tall and 16 wide so I can tell you its very possible to be sucussfull there-hands free , probably not. Xie shan though hardy will not take  your long hard winters without protection period. Im protecting my xie shan here in 9a until year three.. Pvc frames anchored to the ground  do well. That being said- why not duct heat from the greenhouse into your cold frame structure? Looks like that would be easier.

 

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