Author Topic: Developing a hybrid mango variety  (Read 5588 times)

fruitnursery

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Developing a hybrid mango variety
« on: May 20, 2017, 09:53:01 PM »
Hi,

Any mango breeders here? Any idea on how to cross 2 mango varieties? Any picture of male mango flowers and female mango flowers? Best time to cross the two flowers. Thanks. Can i get some tips.

Regards,

Berns
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 10:12:53 PM by fruitnursery »
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fruitlovers

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2017, 11:03:30 PM »
I haven't done it, but heard from breeders that it's extremely laborious because the flowers are so small, and you have to do a very large number to get a few to take.
Oscar

fruitnursery

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2017, 11:46:29 PM »
I haven't done it, but heard from breeders that it's extremely laborious because the flowers are so small, and you have to do a very large number to get a few to take.

Thats true Oscar, seems though Australia is doing a good job breeding bowen mangoes. Using a polyembryonic (bowen) and monoembryonic (irwin and sensation). Hoping to use irwin and sensation as female parent.  To accelerate the selection process, some use the hybrid seedlings scion to topwork old trees to make them fruit faster. I am also interested in using Rapoza as cross.

I wonder what technique gary zill uses to cross dfferent mango varieties. Seems he keeps on selecting new varieties from crossing or selection through chance seedlings.

Regards,

Berns
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 01:36:38 AM by fruitnursery »
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mike rule

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2017, 12:02:52 AM »
Berns... We have a breeder in Katherine Australia named Kenneth Rayner..... Ken has breed hundreds of different varieties ... Has developed commercial mango's by the name of Lady Jane & Lady Grace.... He once told me that when breeding insure your female was a Mono..... "Irwin" was a good female in his eye's due to the red colour it puts into the new variety........ I do have his E/mail address if you want it.... PM me........ Mike

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2017, 08:35:58 AM »
Quote
I wonder what technique gary zill uses to cross dfferent mango varieties. Seems he keeps on selecting new varieties from crossing or selection through chance seedlings.

He planted seeds and looked for certain aromatic and flavor profiles. Didn't do any hand pollination. Many of the maternal parents had 'Gary' trees growing nearby so it appears in a number of the crosses.

Using mangos like Irwin and Sensation for breeding projects is a likely recipe for bland tasting mangos. The Israelis leaned on Irwin heavily for their breeding program and almost all their mangos are bland/flavorless.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 09:41:57 AM by Squam256 »

fruitnursery

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2017, 09:39:51 AM »
Berns... We have a breeder in Katherine Australia named Kenneth Rayner..... Ken has breed hundreds of different varieties ... Has developed commercial mango's by the name of Lady Jane & Lady Grace.... He once told me that when breeding insure your female was a Mono..... "Irwin" was a good female in his eye's due to the red colour it puts into the new variety........ I do have his E/mail address if you want it.... PM me........ Mike

Mike,

Seems to be that Mr. Rayner is one of the best mango breeders right now.  Thanks for the info.

Regards,

Berns

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fruitnursery

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2017, 09:42:53 AM »
Quote
I wonder what technique gary zill uses to cross dfferent mango varieties. Seems he keeps on selecting new varieties from crossing or selection through chance seedlings.

He planted seeds and looked for certain aromatic and flavor profiles. Didn't do anybhand pollination. Many of the maternal parents had 'Gary' trees growing nearby so it appears in a number of the crosses.

Using mangos like Irwin and Sensation for breeding projects is a likely recipe for bland tasting mangos. The Israelis leaned on Irwin heavily for their breeding program and almost all their mangos are bland/flavorless.

Hi,

Thanks for the information regarding on how Mr. Zill selects hs mango varieties. Seems to be using chamce seedling selection. 

Regards,

Berns
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palologrower

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2017, 05:21:03 PM »
interesting question.  i always pondered this as i drive around and see random mango trees in town that were most likely grown from seed.  Most you can tell are common mangoes or pirie/haden (majority of mango trees in Oahu at least). Every so often, I see a different type of mango and wonder if it was a grafted tree or some random hybrid.

what is the turn around time for this process from cross pollinating till you get to try your first fruit?  Definitely an endeavor for someone that has more land and lots of time to tinker around.

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2017, 08:20:33 PM »
Future... PM sent.......Alex.... Ken has cross breed hundreds of different varieties over the years ... The Lady Jane Is a hybrid using Irwin as the female & R2E2 as the male  & was in the controlled breeding year of 1995 & has just gone commercial now.....Lady Grace came from a selection of 100 Irwin seeds planted in 1998 After 3 years this particular tree had fruit & was selected for further evaluation due to its small tree size,precociousness,fruit quality & appearance... It will come online as a commercial crop 2017 season. Both of these varieties are under PBR (Plant Breeders Rights )..... Ken is at the moment into trying to breed dwarf mango trees that are commercially viable...         Mike

Tropicdude

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2017, 09:52:12 PM »
Every trait is a lottery,   one obviously want some traits from each parent to show up in the new hybrid.

Irwin,  might not be top tier in the flavor department.   but seems to have some traits.  that are attractive to certain markets.   the fruit is gorgeous.  I read the tree is compact or easily kept small, relatively disease resistant,  and productive.  I also believe it has good shelf life, I am not familiar with what other good traits it has.

Now you only need to find another variety,  maybe one that is not that attractive but taste great, and also has a few traits one would like.
In this situation all the genes are present,  and if given enough "chances"  one of the seedling could have all the traits one wants.

But in a breeding program,  I think  the first step is to have a goal ,   what fruit characteristics are we looking for?   a Dwarf tree for peoples yards?  or one that can be used in new UHD commercial farms?  extreme disease resistance, for really humid areas?  what shape, color, flavor,  etc.   once you have an idea of what the target is,   we need to find two trees that come close to what you want.

I have seen picture somewhere,  where the two trees , were caged together,  they would prevent stray pollen.   also have to take into consider normal flowering times,  trying to cross a very early variety with a late bloomer,  might pose a problem. getting the flowers synchronized at the same time,   in the tropics forced flower inductions might get around this problem.


I went looking for the cage and was able to find it.  but it was not two trees in one cage,  but a single tree that has had one part top worked with the other parent. this makes much more sense.
www.cpac.embrapa.br/baixar/822/t

While looking for the above report, I came across this very new one on genetic mapping phenotypes markers for breeding.  ( April 2017 )
journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpls.2017.00577/pdf
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 10:13:07 PM by Tropicdude »
William
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fruitnursery

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2017, 10:31:59 PM »
Every trait is a lottery,   one obviously want some traits from each parent to show up in the new hybrid.

Irwin,  might not be top tier in the flavor department.   but seems to have some traits.  that are attractive to certain markets.   the fruit is gorgeous.  I read the tree is compact or easily kept small, relatively disease resistant,  and productive.  I also believe it has good shelf life, I am not familiar with what other good traits it has.

Now you only need to find another variety,  maybe one that is not that attractive but taste great, and also has a few traits one would like.
In this situation all the genes are present,  and if given enough "chances"  one of the seedling could have all the traits one wants.

But in a breeding program,  I think  the first step is to have a goal ,   what fruit characteristics are we looking for?   a Dwarf tree for peoples yards?  or one that can be used in new UHD commercial farms?  extreme disease resistance, for really humid areas?  what shape, color, flavor,  etc.   once you have an idea of what the target is,   we need to find two trees that come close to what you want.

I have seen picture somewhere,  where the two trees , were caged together,  they would prevent stray pollen.   also have to take into consider normal flowering times,  trying to cross a very early variety with a late bloomer,  might pose a problem. getting the flowers synchronized at the same time,   in the tropics forced flower inductions might get around this problem.


I went looking for the cage and was able to find it.  but it was not two trees in one cage,  but a single tree that has had one part top worked with the other parent. this makes much more sense.
www.cpac.embrapa.br/baixar/822/t

While looking for the above report, I came across this very new one on genetic mapping phenotypes markers for breeding.  ( April 2017 )
journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpls.2017.00577/pdf

Here is a picture of 2 mango varieties being crossed by ms. Ledesma of fairchild tropical gardens. They use greenhouse type to cage the 2 trees.


« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 11:30:43 PM by fruitnursery »
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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2017, 10:42:12 PM »
Future... PM sent.......Alex.... Ken has cross breed hundreds of different varieties over the years ... The Lady Jane Is a hybrid using Irwin as the female & R2E2 as the male  & was in the controlled breeding year of 1995 & has just gone commercial now.....Lady Grace came from a selection of 100 Irwin seeds planted in 1998 After 3 years this particular tree had fruit & was selected for further evaluation due to its small tree size,precociousness,fruit quality & appearance... It will come online as a commercial crop 2017 season. Both of these varieties are under PBR (Plant Breeders Rights )..... Ken is at the moment into trying to breed dwarf mango trees that are commercially viable...         Mike

Mike,

Another mango breeder from Australia was the Flaviano Aquilizan.

Regards,

Berns
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 10:48:52 PM by fruitnursery »
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Tropicdude

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2017, 11:15:57 PM »
Ah so there is a picture with two trees in a cage.    again,  its a lot easier, to just graft onto the same tree.    to have the two trees right next to each other,  would need to be planned ahead of time,   would require a bigger cage, and take more time.    also  a single tree with two varieties on it, means the flowers will be closer together, and have a better chance of crossing.

Reading the pdf I posted I am so happy to see that work is being put into identifying the genetic markers for certain traits.  this technology will benefit future breeding programs.

It is predicted that ( for humans ) complete genome maps will cost pennies.    so its safe to say that eventually in a few years,  genetic mapping for our trees, will be dirt cheap as well.

Imagine you have planted a couple hundred seedlings of two trees you are trying to combine to get a new hybrid.   a just take a sample of each one, and one will be able to know, right away,   all the physical traits the tree will have,  one will be able to weed out the undesirables much faster.  and only keep the ones that at least have the genetic combinations, with the traits one seeks,   of course the proof is in the pudding, and flavor is something I do not think we will be able to put into numbers.   but at least the trees that remain will be there only to evaluate taste.    but who knows,  the gene or snp that determines brix might help even separate  very sweet from the not so sweet.

William
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fruitnursery

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2017, 11:39:25 PM »
Ah so there is a picture with two trees in a cage.    again,  its a lot easier, to just graft onto the same tree.    to have the two trees right next to each other,  would need to be planned ahead of time,   would require a bigger cage, and take more time.    also  a single tree with two varieties on it, means the flowers will be closer together, and have a better chance of crossing.

Reading the pdf I posted I am so happy to see that work is being put into identifying the genetic markers for certain traits.  this technology will benefit future breeding programs.

It is predicted that ( for humans ) complete genome maps will cost pennies.    so its safe to say that eventually in a few years,  genetic mapping for our trees, will be dirt cheap as well.

Imagine you have planted a couple hundred seedlings of two trees you are trying to combine to get a new hybrid.   a just take a sample of each one, and one will be able to know, right away,   all the physical traits the tree will have,  one will be able to weed out the undesirables much faster.  and only keep the ones that at least have the genetic combinations, with the traits one seeks,   of course the proof is in the pudding, and flavor is something I do not think we will be able to put into numbers.   but at least the trees that remain will be there only to evaluate taste.    but who knows,  the gene or snp that determines brix might help even separate  very sweet from the not so sweet.

Hi,

Topworking the intended 2 mango varieties is a better way then come flowering time put a bee hive under the trees for pollination.  There are different variations on this method. Some will put net on the topworked mango tree.

Regards,

Berns

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palmcity

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2017, 09:08:26 AM »
It is predicted that ( for humans ) complete genome maps will cost pennies.    so its safe to say that eventually in a few years,  genetic mapping for our trees, will be dirt cheap as well.

Imagine you have planted a couple hundred seedlings of two trees you are trying to combine to get a new hybrid.   a just take a sample of each one, and one will be able to know, right away,   all the physical traits the tree will have,  one will be able to weed out the undesirables much faster.  and only keep the ones that at least have the genetic combinations, with the traits one seeks,   of course the proof is in the pudding, and flavor is something I do not think we will be able to put into numbers.   but at least the trees that remain will be there only to evaluate taste.    but who knows,  the gene or snp that determines brix might help even separate  very sweet from the not so sweet.
Imagination awakened.

It's still a good idea to have some sort of a backup seed bank, scion bank, etc.to fall back on but not in the same spot as the one recently mentioned with the melting intrusion of sea water if the new genetic combinations prove inferior over climate changes (co2 levels, o2 levels, temperature variations, etc. etc.).

Of course when reading plant genetic trait testing the thought of similar animal testing emerges and the favorite movie of mine is the oldie GATTACA.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca
We are left at the end of the movie with the hope that your motivation, desire, and determination may be enough to overcome and succeed over supposedly genetic superior individuals. It's always fun to pull for the underdog and a great movie.

I'll have to talk to my little plants and see if they have any motivation, desire, and determination to add to their genetic qualities to eventually make me a good tasting mango.

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2017, 07:42:48 PM »
Gary Zill's new mango variety program is NOT "chance seedlings."

The seed parent was selected.

The pollen parent only was partly chance--- open pollination, with only pollen of superior varieties available on surrounding trees.

Thousands of seeds were planted each year, with each seed tagged per mother tree's variety name and location.

Freshly germinated seedlings were evaluated for smell and appearance.

Only very interesting seedlings, "pre-selections", were kept to grow out in the field.

It was all very systematic.  I am a witness.

Har

pineislander

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2017, 09:21:15 PM »
Freshly germinated seedlings were evaluated for smell and appearance.

That sounds very interesting. How to judge fruit quality from seedling smell, I mean.

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2017, 11:51:55 AM »
Gary Zill's new mango variety program is NOT "chance seedlings."

The seed parent was selected.

The pollen parent only was partly chance--- open pollination, with only pollen of superior varieties available on surrounding trees.

Thousands of seeds were planted each year, with each seed tagged per mother tree's variety name and location.

Freshly germinated seedlings were evaluated for smell and appearance.

Only very interesting seedlings, "pre-selections", were kept to grow out in the field.

It was all very systematic.  I am a witness.

I would like to clear up that I am not for GMO's  I did not want to get into that hot topic,  but it is hard to avoid, when the subject of genetics comes up.   I understand that Zill,  uses his sniffer and eyes, to confirm that indeed the pollen from one tree did cross with another.   and that's great.   but this will not tell you all the traits and attributes the tree will years down the line.   and most of us,  simply do not have a great sniffing apparatus between our eyes  :o

Quote
Imagination awakened.

It's still a good idea to have some sort of a backup seed bank, scion bank, etc.to fall back on but not in the same spot as the one recently mentioned with the melting intrusion of sea water if the new genetic combinations prove inferior over climate changes (co2 levels, o2 levels, temperature variations, etc. etc.).

Of course when reading plant genetic trait testing the thought of similar animal testing emerges and the favorite movie of mine is the oldie GATTACA.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca
We are left at the end of the movie with the hope that your motivation, desire, and determination may be enough to overcome and succeed over supposedly genetic superior individuals. It's always fun to pull for the underdog and a great movie.

I'll have to talk to my little plants and see if they have any motivation, desire, and determination to add to their genetic qualities to eventually make me a good tasting mango.

I really liked that movie, came out when the news of the human genome being mapped was a big thing in the news.  how naive of us to thing that genetics was that easy.   we just thought that we could pop a gene for a particular traits and presto,  you have that trait.   does not work that way.   epi-genome,  or SNPs.  the little switches on each gene, and other genes in specific combinations work together.   this has NOT been mapped.  but is being worked on.    to simplify this to my friends, I just tell people that Genes are like words or computer instruction,    one word on its own does not say much.

I have been really interested in this topic  for last couple years,   was considering getting my genome mapped at "23andme", but until laws are passed that protect genetic privacy, I think I'll wait.  the fear here is that your genetic predisposition can be used against you, imagine Insurance company raising your rates because heart disease runs in your genes?   yes we are getting to GATTACA scenario.    anyway this is drifting off topic,  but just wanted to make the point that I am not against science and technology,  if it is applied responsibly,  and with knowledge of what they are doing.

Getting back to mangoes,  what happens when some bio-lab starts mixing genes from different species,  is that you make that new creation susceptible to new diseases.  also, and this is very important,  is that SNPs can change states.  epigenome can switch, after birth/germination. or will switch in offspring.  this is why we need to be careful with GMOs,  the pollen contaminates wild varieties, and can have negative effects, generations down the line, as SNPs change states.  we have no way of knowing  what will happen down the line. its basically impossible to know now , every single genetic combination that can happen.  I do not want to sound like an alarmist or tin hatter here.

So as a tool,  mapping the genome of plants, to assist in the natural breeding of mangoes or any other plant will be very useful.  it should cut decades of the time needed to develop new varieties.
William
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fruitnursery

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2017, 12:24:20 PM »
Freshly germinated seedlings were evaluated for smell and appearance.

That sounds very interesting. How to judge fruit quality from seedling smell, I mean.

Sometimes you can distinguish the variety from the smell of the leaves, maybe if you can evaluate each seedlings that you think you have crossed from a monoembryonic parent, if the smell of the leaves came from the polyembryonic variety then there is the possibility that the taste was retained and other characteristics from monoembryonic parent might show like blush, productivity, dwarfness.
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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2017, 03:15:17 PM »
I have spent time with Gary and his mangoes.  It is fascinating to see him simply smell the crumpled leaves and tell you everything about the fruit that tree will produce.  He plants lots of seedlings and then discards most on the basis of fragrance.
Peter

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2017, 08:16:40 AM »
I would like to share this study about mango breeding, plenty of useful informations.

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=92950805138031469443

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2017, 11:10:30 PM »
Yesterday I was clipping a few leaves off my Edgar,  and noticed the strong aroma from the leaves.   if the pollen donor had this aroma, and the seed come from one without this aroma,  it would be obvious even to my untrained nose.  I do envy the people that can identify a wine, or perfume etc. just by aroma alone.
William
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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2017, 10:53:47 AM »
Freshly germinated seedlings were evaluated for smell and appearance.

That sounds very interesting. How to judge fruit quality from seedling smell, I mean.

I've got lots of random and specially selected polyembryonic seedlings growing and I crush the leaves of my polyembryonic seedlings to determine which ones are the clones as the sap from the crushed leaves smells identical to the sap of the true grafted variety. Of course I won't know for sure until the seedlings fruit but the smell of the sap for varieties like Lemon Zest and especially Sweet Tart are very unique.

This topic is very interesting. I have considered crossing some of my favorite varieties but the thought of emasculating each male flower on a panicle on a daily( if not more frequent) seemed like too much work and that doesn't even include bagging and collecting pollen from the male flowers of the paternal tree.

Even after a variety is grown up and selected, further trials will likely be required to see how it performs on nursery rootstocks. From the little googling I did, rootstocks can influence scion performance and vice versa.

It appears there were already experiments performed on various rootstocks and various rootstocks that show different size attributes combined with high production has already been selected including rootstocks that show reduced size combined with high yields. As mentioned earlier however, performance will also depend on the scion.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0

I'm especially interested in the work Dr Ledesma is working on in regards to new varieties that are potentially more resistant to fungal diseases especially Anthracnose and Powdery Mildew. The fungal diseases seem to be evolving and it would be wonderful if we can get an excellent tasting mango that is productive without spraying.

It would be transformative for mango growers if a rootstock were developed that could impart fungal resistance to all or at least most of the varieties grafted onto it.

Simon

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Re: Developing a hybrid mango variety
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2017, 11:09:17 AM »
@Simon   I remember Ledesma brought Casturi here to the DR.  in the hopes that someone someday will breed some kind of hybrid, of Indica,   not sure if it is even possible, but that would be a good start.  it is something that commercial growers would be interested in,  something that will grow clean in the wet regions of the country.  backyard growers may not care about spots on their fruit, but supermarkets will reject them.    If I had the land,  I would definitely give it a shot.   now that we are getting to the point that we can ID the gene/snps for resistance,   we could just search through known varieties, and start selecting them for breeding. to amplify this trait.  among other desired traits.
William
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