Author Topic: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?  (Read 9947 times)

sapote

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2017, 03:28:20 PM »
"I'm as bewildered as Zafra. Not sure why people keep saying that there is cambium left in Zill's cut. There is none as he really cut into the rootstock, not just removing the bark as in t-budding or top working a tree."

You're not right. Listen to Zill saying from 6:00 minutes.

kh0110

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2017, 03:32:49 PM »
I need to learn how to cut like Zill in the video, but peeling the bark is way easier I would think!
Thera

simon_grow

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2017, 04:14:03 PM »
I thought his second graft was larger than required for the scion he used. I perform quite a few veneers grafts but I match the size of my veneer cut to the scion so that the cambium has contact at both sides. If the scion is small, I make a shallower veneer cut. This video is what I typically do for a veneer graft
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqlX6hqPno

I've had veneers grafts with little cambium contact take and sometimes I only have good contact on one side and very little contact on the other side.

Simon

Zafra

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2017, 09:27:32 PM »
Yup that's the video I got the gist from as well. But honestly if Zill's method works it's way easier, especially because Dr. Fairchild's method seems to require very young, green root stock and I don't always have that.  I'd like to do Zill's method, but I'd also like to understand it!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 09:30:55 PM by Zafra »

Guanabanus

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2017, 09:51:43 PM »
The cambium is transparent, and it is too thin to see with the naked eye.
Har

BajaJohn

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2017, 10:39:58 PM »
Does this help? The issue is how the position of the cut affects the geometry and thickness of the layers.



As others have mentioned, you only need to line up one side of the cambium layer (as in cleft grafts) for success.

9B in Brazil

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2017, 11:00:05 PM »
Great graphics BajaJohn where the 3rd pic is Zill's technique.  This may make it clearer about what Fyliu was saying about the cambium layer is anywhere in the center of the shallow veneer cut. 
I am an American from California with a small farm in Southern Brazil. 
Sou americano na Califórnia e tenho um sítio em Brusque, SC, Brasil.

Marc Doyle

Zafra

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2017, 11:02:42 PM »
This image is interesting, and theoretically it helps. But in practice I don't understand how the same size cut could have either the result in the second or the third drawings - seems to me it should be one or the other. That is to say, the cuts in the second two drawings appear to be almost the same width, but one has the cambium only on the edges, the other has it in the middle. I don't see how the same width cut could have two such different results.
The cut that Mr. Zill does for the second graft in the video looks to me like it should turn out like the second drawing, requiring lining up at least one side. But he centers the scion a la the third drawing. That's what has me confused.

Zafra

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2017, 11:05:36 PM »
To be clear, I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops. I'm just trying to learn from all the experts here who are so much more experienced than I hoping to one day have some success with the elusive mango graft. Thanks to all for all the responses!

kh0110

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2017, 11:37:01 PM »
I think I know how Walter Zill does this kind of cut. The first cut is to feel where the wood part is and stop right there. Then he brings the cut down along the wood without cutting into it and at the same time he applies a slight outward tension away from the cut like peeling it. This peeling tension prevents the wood from being cut and scraped and therefore leaving the cambium unscathed.
So basically, it's a cut and peel kind of cut.
Thera

BajaJohn

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2017, 01:34:35 AM »
This image is interesting, and theoretically it helps. But in practice I don't understand how the same size cut could have either the result in the second or the third drawings - seems to me it should be one or the other. That is to say, the cuts in the second two drawings appear to be almost the same width, but one has the cambium only on the edges, the other has it in the middle. I don't see how the same width cut could have two such different results.
The cut that Mr. Zill does for the second graft in the video looks to me like it should turn out like the second drawing, requiring lining up at least one side. But he centers the scion a la the third drawing. That's what has me confused.
I'm no expert on grafting either but I'm doing my best to learn. The two drawings to the right in my previous post illustrate cuts at slightly different depths with the second one cutting along the cambium. In both cases however, the rootstock bark layer is thicker than the scion bark layer - because the scion is a smaller limb and additionally the rootstock layers are cut at an angle which makes them appear even thicker in the plane of the cut.

Zill describes the cut between 5:15 and 6:15. His first cut appears to go through the bark and into a lighter color layer but he says it isn't deep enough and cuts more off, then points down the middle of the removed piece and the cut on the rootstock to a slightly darker area that he calls the cambium and describes as "juicy". I suspect that the confusion may come from assuming that the "bark" is just the dark layer on the outside whereas this isn't really the case. Cambium layer cells produce layers of phloem cells on the outside of the cambium that are alive and growing. They are the cells that form the transport system for materials up and down the stems and trunk and are usually whitish. This is the lighter brown ring in my diagrams. This page illustrates the 4 possible layers of bark outside of the cambium - phellem, cork cambium, phelloderm and phloem. The phellem is the only dark layer. This video has a good general explanation of plant growth, including the secondary growth accomplished by the cambium layer. This page has a photograph of the section of a trunk identifying the cambium and inner bark (phloem) layer. If you magnify the image you can see the outer bark is a darker color.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 01:54:19 AM by BajaJohn »

Seanny

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2017, 12:33:40 PM »
He was doing a bark grafting, but replacing the bark with plastic wrap.

sapote

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2017, 01:52:06 PM »
Reference to BajaJohn drawing, Zill's goal was to have the cut as show on the 3rd drawing -- ideally he wanted his knife blade touched the wood at the deepest part of the cut, which is the center. This makes sense since the harder wood could be felt and guide his hand during the process even if he is a blind man. So if we can agree that the very center of the cut is a very thin long strip of exposed wood then couple millimeters on both side are two strips of cambium matching fairly well with the scion's cambium. I don't think the 2nd  drawing is what Zill wanted.

kh0110

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2017, 02:07:16 PM »
If anybody here was able to replicate the same kind of cut, please share the experience.
It's not everyday one gets to learn a Zill trick of the trade.
Thera

Zafra

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2017, 03:00:12 PM »
If anybody here was able to replicate the same kind of cut, please share the experience.
It's not everyday one gets to learn a Zill trick of the trade.
Cosigned!

sapote

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2017, 07:39:39 PM »
I followed Walter Zill method top work my sister Home Depot mango tree 2 weeks ago. Yesterday I checked and  had around 6 grafts and 100% took!!! I didn’t have store bought parafilm and just used strips cut from plastic bag. I covered the whole scion as he did, and then uncovered the top grow after 2 weeks. Not as hard as I had thought, even at end of October.











Zafra

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2017, 08:22:14 PM »
Wow! And unless my eyes deceive me, those scions are dead in the middle with no edge alignment anywhere. I'm hoping some more experts might weigh in on WHY this works... :o

kh0110

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2017, 08:37:11 PM »
I followed Walter Zill method top work my sister Home Depot mango tree 2 weeks ago. Yesterday I checked and  had around 6 grafts and 100% took!!! I didn’t have store bought parafilm and just used strips cut from plastic bag. I covered the whole scion as he did, and then uncovered the top grow after 2 weeks. Not as hard as I had thought, even at end of October.
...
sapote, next time please show/explain how you cut the rootstock. Walter Zill did not do a regular straight cut because the inside wood is untouched and just popped out and therefore leaving the cambium also untouched. This explains why this kind of graft works. The trick is in the cutting.
Thera

sapote

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2017, 09:48:35 PM »
Wow! And unless my eyes deceive me, those scions are dead in the middle with no edge alignment anywhere. I'm hoping some more experts might weigh in on WHY this works... :o

Which pic shows a dead scion at the middle? No edge alignment? Scion's middle cambium right on top of rootstock's middle cambium I say.

sapote

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2017, 09:49:39 PM »
I followed Walter Zill method top work my sister Home Depot mango tree 2 weeks ago. Yesterday I checked and  had around 6 grafts and 100% took!!! I didn’t have store bought parafilm and just used strips cut from plastic bag. I covered the whole scion as he did, and then uncovered the top grow after 2 weeks. Not as hard as I had thought, even at end of October.
...
sapote, next time please show/explain how you cut the rootstock. Walter Zill did not do a regular straight cut because the inside wood is untouched and just popped out and therefore leaving the cambium also untouched. This explains why this kind of graft works. The trick is in the cutting.

Yes, the secret is the cut depth. I made first cut not deep to cambium, which gave me more insight for controlling the depth of next cut. Sink the knife at the top of the cut until hit the wood then back up about 1mm for 1st cut. For 2nd cut, sink the knife until touches the wood, then tilt the sharp edge up to pry the thin bark so the thin bark slips (or pop) off the cambium, and this is the correct depth to pull the knife down to bottom of the long cut, no more no less. Done.
Along the length of the long cut if the knife got in to the wood a little bit, no worry because there is plenty of good cambium contact remain for the scion. Don’t have to be 100% cambium interface to survive. If some sections not deep to cambium then easily  just “touch up” again to slip the thin bark off to expose cambium.

Zafra

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2017, 09:50:22 PM »
Wow! And unless my eyes deceive me, those scions are dead in the middle with no edge alignment anywhere. I'm hoping some more experts might weigh in on WHY this works... :o

Which pic shows a dead scion at the middle? No edge alignment? Scion's middle cambium right on top of rootstock's middle cambium I say.

No not a dead scion, dead in the middle as in dead-center as in aligned to the center, not an edge, of the root stock cut. :)

Zafra

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2017, 09:52:39 PM »
Yes, the secret is the cut depth. I made first cut not deep to cambium, which gave me more insight for controlling the depth of next cut. Sink the knife at the top of the cut until hit the wood then back up about 1mm for 1st cut. For 2nd cut, sink the knife until touches the wood, then tilt the sharp edge up to pry the thin bark so the thin bark slips (or pop) off the cambium, and this is the correct depth to pull the knife down to bottom of the long cut, no more no less. Done.
Along the length of the long cut if the knife got in to the wood a little bit, no worry because there is plenty of good cambium contact remain for the scion. Don’t have to be 100% cambium interface to survive. If some sections not deep to cambium then easily  just “touch up” again to slip the thin bark off to expose cambium.
I have to practice this. Great stuff.

sapote

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2017, 09:55:07 PM »
I didn't take pic when working on this 2 weeks ago, because I was not so sure if it worked, and I need to hurry because the patient was bleeding and too many patients on the bed, and didn't want to be late for a scheduled tennis match Sunday morning!!!

sapote

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2017, 09:58:06 PM »
"No not a dead scion, dead in the middle as in dead-center as in aligned to the center, not an edge, of the root stock cut. :)"

Oh man!! Lucky we are not real medical doctors :) with language barrier.

sapote

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Re: missing a basic grafting concept, apparently...a little help?
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2017, 10:00:42 PM »
"with no edge alignment anywhere"

Why do you think we need edge alignment?  Only the Pep Boys people doing edge alignment with toe-in :) The edges only have the bark and who care.