Author Topic: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting  (Read 5501 times)

jcaldeira

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Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« on: March 25, 2015, 04:40:41 PM »
What is the ideal scion length for cleft and whip grafting?  Have there been studies showing how results vary with various scion lengths?

Most of my scions are between 100 and 150 mm (4"-6") and I choose this length mostly because I am blindly following what I was taught.  I like to have 4 or 5 buds on a scion, but that's about the only justification I have.   My results are very good when the rootstock and scion are both in a growth mode, but I wonder if it would be even better with shorter or longer scions.  What do you folks think?

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2015, 04:57:10 PM »
depends on what you are grafting, and how...there is not specific size range that you can generically apply to all situations.

I have used scions as small as one bud, and as long as 2ft.
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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2015, 04:59:34 PM »
depends on what you are grafting, and how...there is not specific size range that you can generically apply to all situations.

I have used scions as small as one bud, and as long as 2ft.

I have used them as long as 2 ft, thinking it would push buds all up and down the scion. Where as in fact the scion just pushes branches near the tip. This seems to conclude that it would be better to use shorter scions with a maximum of 2 or 3 buds. If a person has pieces extra long cut them up into multiple scions for multiple grafts. Which is what I learned watching some old timers on videos from CRFG.

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2015, 06:25:43 PM »
I just did 10-12" long grafts on anonas and they took well. On mangoes, its best to have terminal bud only.

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2015, 06:59:41 PM »
Mango grafts do almost always sprout from the terminal bud or right next to it.  Avocados usually do too, while citrus seem to sprout at any bud on the scion. 

I'm wondering whether having the right length of scion wood keeps the terminal bud from drying out before the graft wound heals and starts pumping sap.  I'm going to try some 25-50 cm (1"-2") mango grafts and see how they do.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 11:09:01 PM by jcaldeira »
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gnappi

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2015, 11:03:53 PM »
" Have there been studies showing how results vary with various scion lengths?"

I don't know about other folks but I'd sure like to see such a study.
Regards,

   Gary

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2015, 11:46:21 PM »
this is not true if you are grafting jaboticaba...larger scions are better than smaller (to make a tree fruit early)...I regularly use scions of about 10-12 inch, with a caliper of about 3/8 inch.

so as I said before, it depends on what you are grafting.

depends on what you are grafting, and how...there is not specific size range that you can generically apply to all situations.

I have used scions as small as one bud, and as long as 2ft.

I have used them as long as 2 ft, thinking it would push buds all up and down the scion. Where as in fact the scion just pushes branches near the tip. This seems to conclude that it would be better to use shorter scions with a maximum of 2 or 3 buds. If a person has pieces extra long cut them up into multiple scions for multiple grafts. Which is what I learned watching some old timers on videos from CRFG.
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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 11:10:57 AM »
I don't think that's the case. The two things that are going to cause a scion to die are a) desiccation and b) infection (eg, fungal). As long as the scion is well covered to prevent water loss and clean to prevent infection, a tiny shield bud will last as long as a 6 inch side veneer -- somewhere around 2 weeks in summer weather. And even if you have a 5 foot scion, a fungal infection in any part between the bud and the graft point will cause the graft to fail.

I'm wondering whether having the right length of scion wood keeps the terminal bud from drying out before the graft wound heals and starts pumping sap.  I'm going to try some 25-50 cm (1"-2") mango grafts and see how they do.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 11:23:54 AM »
I'm wondering whether having the right length of scion wood keeps the terminal bud from drying out before the graft wound heals and starts pumping sap.  I'm going to try some 25-50 cm (1"-2") mango grafts and see how they do.
I don't think that's the case. The two things that are going to cause a scion to die are a) desiccation and b) infection (eg, fungal). As long as the scion is well covered to prevent water loss and clean to prevent infection, a tiny shield bud will last as long as a 6 inch side veneer -- somewhere around 2 weeks in summer weather. And even if you have a 5 foot scion, a fungal infection in any part between the bud and the graft point will cause the graft to fail.

So why does one size scion presumably do better than another?  For mango grafting, many sources cite 100mm (4") as ideal, with little reason why it is better than 50mm or 200mm.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 11:26:22 AM by jcaldeira »
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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 12:34:45 PM »
the ideal size for someone else may not be ideal for you.

most important is scion health, and root stock health...

clean utensils and hands....

and good surface to surface contact on your cuts.

I'm wondering whether having the right length of scion wood keeps the terminal bud from drying out before the graft wound heals and starts pumping sap.  I'm going to try some 25-50 cm (1"-2") mango grafts and see how they do.
I don't think that's the case. The two things that are going to cause a scion to die are a) desiccation and b) infection (eg, fungal). As long as the scion is well covered to prevent water loss and clean to prevent infection, a tiny shield bud will last as long as a 6 inch side veneer -- somewhere around 2 weeks in summer weather. And even if you have a 5 foot scion, a fungal infection in any part between the bud and the graft point will cause the graft to fail.

So why does one size scion presumably do better than another?  For mango grafting, many sources cite 100mm (4") as ideal, with little reason why it is better than 50mm or 200mm.
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jcaldeira

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 02:51:37 PM »
the ideal size for someone else may not be ideal for you.

If scion length didn't matter, I don't think so many sources would be recommending around 100mm for mango scions.
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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 03:05:40 PM »
For Annona 3-4 buds (3-6") depending on the thickness of the wood. For mangos I like terminal bud 3-4" long. After many failures I won't graft outside their timeframe.....timing matters.

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 03:17:12 PM »
the ideal size for someone else may not be ideal for you.

If scion length didn't matter, I don't think so many sources would be recommending around 100mm for mango scions.

John,

look back through my posts...when did I say scion length does not matter?

that's the exact opposite of what I said about grafting jaboticaba...if you use scions too small, it won't make your tree precocious.

welcome to the tropical fruit discussion...its a little different here than off topic.



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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 03:31:57 PM »
For Annona 3-4 buds (3-6") depending on the thickness of the wood. For mangos I like terminal bud 3-4" long. After many failures I won't graft outside their timeframe.....timing matters.

Yeah,  I have finally learned this the hard way with annonas.
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jcaldeira

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 03:44:31 PM »
the ideal size for someone else may not be ideal for you.

If scion length didn't matter, I don't think so many sources would be recommending around 100mm for mango scions.

John,

look back through my posts...when did I say scion length does not matter?

Sorry.  What I meant was that it's more than personal preference.  Even Popenoe in 1920 was recommending 3"-5" mango scions.  What I'm looking for is the scientific or logical reasoning why this length is better than, say, 2" or 8".
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 03:56:04 PM by jcaldeira »
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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 07:23:43 PM »
4 inch scions for cleft / veneer are great for practical reasons -- the size is perfect for handling and not so big as to pose a risk of bending nor waste grafting tape / wrap.

But, in terms of take percentage, there shouldn't be much variance due to size -- a skilled grafter can get upwards of 90% take for anything from a tiny shield bud all the way up to a 6 inch side veneer (when grafting mango).

If you were grafting in the stone ages and didn't have access to plastic / fungicides / tool cleansing agents, then I suppose there could be a difference due to scion size (ie, a beefy foot long scion hanging out in the open might retain more moisture than a little scion needle). In that case your rate of take would be in the single digits.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 09:03:09 PM »
given the particular circumstances you have mentioned, I don't see a reason why I couldn't get the same success rate using 2 inch scions, or 10 inch scions.

I think the length is a matter of personal preference, and depends on what you are grafting, and the technique you wish to employ.

the ideal size for someone else may not be ideal for you.

If scion length didn't matter, I don't think so many sources would be recommending around 100mm for mango scions.

John,

look back through my posts...when did I say scion length does not matter?

Sorry.  What I meant was that it's more than personal preference.  Even Popenoe in 1920 was recommending 3"-5" mango scions.  What I'm looking for is the scientific or logical reasoning why this length is better than, say, 2" or 8".
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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2015, 09:05:53 PM »
4 inch scions for cleft / veneer are great for practical reasons -- the size is perfect for handling and not so big as to pose a risk of bending nor waste grafting tape / wrap.

But, in terms of take percentage, there shouldn't be much variance due to size -- a skilled grafter can get upwards of 90% take for anything from a tiny shield bud all the way up to a 6 inch side veneer (when grafting mango).

If you were grafting in the stone ages and didn't have access to plastic / fungicides / tool cleansing agents, then I suppose there could be a difference due to scion size (ie, a beefy foot long scion hanging out in the open might retain more moisture than a little scion needle). In that case your rate of take would be in the single digits.

Wow, 90% on mangos? I'll be lucky if hit 70% under the perfect grafting conditions....annona 90% plus for sure.

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Re: Ideal Scion Length for Grafting
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2015, 10:31:20 PM »
:-) well, not sure about california. Here in FL the weather is quite a bit more conducive to mango grafting. 70% is probably stellar grafting mango in california.

Wow, 90% on mangos? I'll be lucky if hit 70% under the perfect grafting conditions....annona 90% plus for sure.
Jeff  :-)