Author Topic: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.  (Read 43981 times)

MangoFang

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2014, 01:09:18 PM »
Pan - the thing I did last year was add some powdered Phosphorous (Rock Phosphate i think)
to all my mangoes and they seemed to flower better this year.  Have you ever done a soil test?
The good thing about the rock phosphate is it can't burn the plants and is slowly taken up by
them (it's what I read anyway....)  And it did seem to help with the flowering...maybe....and of course
the Potassium, also, should be added regularly if your soil is deficient in that element.  Lastly, would be to
add minor elements and see if that helps....

And maybe it was just the weather that held them down this year....hard to tell....

Gary

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2014, 02:21:42 PM »
Amazing work Pancrazio, I am keeping my fingers crossed for you! :-)
Where do you have your mango planted - in Florence? :-)

:)
Yes, it is in Florence. The plant is struggling, but it hasn't died yet, so the experiment goes on.

Pan - the thing I did last year was add some powdered Phosphorous (Rock Phosphate i think)
[cut]
And maybe it was just the weather that held them down this year....hard to tell....


I should ad some Phosphorous because i have always fed it with potassium only and i think that while it works well for cold hardiness, my plant may fall a bit behind when it comes to growing and fruiting. I'm totally clueless about the right quantities of every element, though.

About the slow growing, i think that the plant may have some kind of disease which is damaging the trunk. I'm trying to cure it as i do for lemons - a lot of copper and sulphur painted directly over the damages area - but if it won't heal, this plant will have to be eliminated, or the wind eliminate it sooner or later.
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Mark in Texas

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #77 on: April 15, 2014, 08:30:29 AM »

I should ad some Phosphorous because i have always fed it with potassium only and i think that while it works well for cold hardiness, my plant may fall a bit behind when it comes to growing and fruiting. I'm totally clueless about the right quantities of every element, though.

About the slow growing, i think that the plant may have some kind of disease which is damaging the trunk. I'm trying to cure it as i do for lemons - a lot of copper and sulphur painted directly over the damages area - but if it won't heal, this plant will have to be eliminated, or the wind eliminate it sooner or later.

Just a thought, phosphorous, P, is one of the most abused elements used by growers.  The commercial ag folks have finally wised up and backed off.  In general, a 3-1-2 for veg, 1-3-2 for flower.  Learn the concepts of nutrient antagonism where the overage of one locks out one or more others.  For example, high P foods will induce a micro deficiency. 

I just got a case of Keyplex 350DP in and am experimenting with that.  I'm VERY wary of snake oils but gonna give this one a shot.  Sounds like the real deal.  In conjunction with the USDA, they came up with products which induce SAR or plant defensive mechanisms.  Might want to look into it and at least talk to a rep.  http://www.keyplex.com/keyplex-350-dp.html

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2014, 07:29:30 PM »
Thank you for your input. You are right, nutrient antagonism should be kept in mind.
Usually phosphorous is somewhat tricky to feed to plant, this is the reason why I'm thinking about it. I never fertilized my mango with it - so I'm pretty sure that my plant hasn't had an overabundance of it. Moreover, phosphorous is readily adsorbed by soil, so only the excess given over the leeching capability of soil goes to the plant: but i haven't conduct a soil test so i don't know. The exact amount i should give before starting to nice its effects.
What i fear most, now, is the salinization of the soil. I'm thinking that, since i work in a mediterranean enviroment, and since i cover my plant in the months with most rainfall, everything feed to the plant, which gets unused, will remain in the soil, without any movement towards the water table. This can become an issue as the years pass, and I've got to start thinking about it.
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ScottR

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2014, 09:46:59 PM »
Just a thought save rain water and water your Mango with it to help flush the soil! Keep up the great job of growing on the edge! ;) 8) 8)

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #80 on: August 01, 2015, 01:45:54 PM »
Bump.

Any update for this year?

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2015, 04:47:07 PM »
Thank you for asking!
Yes, there are some news. Firstly i got my first fruit, grown from flowering to the dining table of my home!
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=17258.0
There are some good news and some bad news, that i won't detail in that thread but i will detail here, for anyone that in future may want to repeat my experience, for them to draw from my trial and error.
Firstly last winter has been really positive, with pretty high temperatures so the foliage remained pretty green and healthy even under the covering.
As usual, my first flowering emerged very abundantly but almost all the flowers were deformed and so I have been forced to remove them. This because I wanted to grow healthy looking fruit. In last years i observed that removing the flowers in the first decade of April leads to a flowering in mid to late june; that's too late for my objectives (that is having some developing fruits in the june-august time frame). Also, last year a pretty hot april suppressed the second flowering, so this year, to avoid such issues, unlike the previous years, I convinced myself to remove the flowers in March.
After that i treated my plant with a 4 weeks nitrate of potash treatment to maximize the second flowering. This apparently worked, even if not as well i hoped, still i got a dozen of very healthy panicles on my plant.
Maybe, related to the treatment with nitrate of potash, i had an alarming event during the flowering; many leaves did drop, and I went pretty alarmed; but during the flowering the plant reacted vigorously with a new growth so the ratio leaf/fruit remained reasonable.
The flowering reached the apex on the first days of june. That was the perfect timing in my opinion. The fruitlet started to develop nicely when something happened that still puzzles me. During the inspection of the flowering i did discover between the panicles a very small and deformed fruit coming from the first flowering that i forgot to cull when i removed the first flowering.
Now i got heart to remove the flowers, but ain't any heart to remove developing fruits. So the fruit, even if it was deformed, remained.
About 15 days after the end of the flowering we got a severe storm coming from north; the temperature dropped to 13°C at night and now i guess that the rain was pretty cold too, but i'm going to assume that it didn't get any colder than the air. However in the week following the rain EVERY fruitlet did drop. Most of them had inside a small healthy embryo. Why they dropped? The rain was too cold? The quick change of idratation for the plant shocked them to drop? Did the rain produce any rot at the attachment point?
Well, it was a bummer; at the middle of june i got a very healthy plant with a perfectly timed flowering completely stripped by its fruitlets by the last storm of winter. But not for the small deformed fruit of the first flowering! This was covered by the leaves, and went fine trough the storm and the fruit drop. Still i don't get why.
However, fast forward to now; the deformed fruitlet of the first flowering did really develop in a "eatable" fruit (well, part of it was pretty good honestly, while some other was just immature) even if, i must admit, that's not a beautiful fruit. But it did confirm my datas; Glenn mangoes can and will ripen here in the second half of august (the exact time is very related to climate and time of flowering) now i just need to find a way to get a good pollination and fruit set that seems the trickiest thing to do in my climate.
My plant about 15 days ago (got another flush in the meantime):

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simon_grow

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2015, 05:02:25 PM »
Wow, your tree looks great! It appears to be super healthy and from the looks of things now, you will have more better fruit in the future. With every passing year, your tree will get stronger and will be able to handle a heavier fruit load. With your tree only producing one fruit this year, it will have a lot more energy and nutrients for a heavier fruiting next year.

Dr Richard Campbell recommends tipping the branches of mango trees in order to get more branching and thus more growth points for more blooms which may equate to more fruit set due to an increased number of flowers. It appears you may have already tipped some branches as your tree already looks pretty bushy. Keep up the good work and please keep us updated on your beautiful tree!

Simon

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2015, 09:27:54 PM »
Your tree looks perfect. Have you considered adding mulch around the trunk? I think it's the best thing you can do in the growing season to strengthening the tree ready for the tough winter. Can you have banana fruit too?

Congrats!!!

Sapote

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2015, 04:29:29 AM »
Perfect....now you should prune a little for this winter....it seems too large for the greenhouse?!!
I saw a blue zone over the bark...did you solve the problem of the rotten wood?

Mark in Texas

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2015, 09:24:01 AM »
Fine, healthy looking tree.   ;) Great thread and since we both are growing in a greenhouse thought I'd share my first real harvests of dwarf mangos - Pickering and Mallika.  Highly recommend Pickering. It is nectar of the gods.  ;)  Picking my first Mallika today which folks say is even better.  (No way!)

I am making a big revision to my greenhouse by removing the "Dyna-Glas SolarSoft 85" polycarbonate on the north roof line that has turned out to allow about 60% light transmission and going to Clear.

Good luck!




« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 09:26:15 AM by Mark in Texas »

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2015, 06:23:11 PM »
Dr Richard Campbell recommends tipping the branches of mango trees in order to get more branching and thus more growth points for more blooms which may equate to more fruit set due to an increased number of flowers. It appears you may have already tipped some branches as your tree already looks pretty bushy. Keep up the good work and please keep us updated on your beautiful tree!

Hi simon,
I keep in high esteem your suggestion. Luckily for me, i encountered the growing experience of puglvr and the videos of Dr. Richard Campbell pretty early in my experience so the plant has always been tip pruned since planting. I just forgot to do that last year: I wasn't able to get a decent flowering last year and this disheartened me so much that i missed most of the pruning for the year. Man, that was a mistake! Now i have some long twigs that i don't know how to take care of. Probably will try to do a severe pruning at the end of the next summer.

Your tree looks perfect. Have you considered adding mulch around the trunk? I think it's the best thing you can do in the growing season to strengthening the tree ready for the tough winter. Can you have banana fruit too?

Thank you for your kind words. Regarding mulch, i'm aware of all the benefits it can give to the plant but i'm skeptic about its utility in my case. This is because i want to maximize the exchanges between soil and air during the summer and mulch may impair that.
Regarding bananas, as far as i know no one grows (well, fruits) bananas for at least a 400km radius around my house, but i have some experiments going with that too. They are easier than mangoes for some aspects, but presents their own set of challenges.

Perfect....now you should prune a little for this winter....it seems too large for the greenhouse?!!
I saw a blue zone over the bark...did you solve the problem of the rotten wood?

The plant can still fit into the enclosure but i'm running out fo space. Regarding the rotten wood, the problem looks regressing and may head towards a solution. If it has been solved because of my cares, or because the warm winters, i can't tell for sure. But i'm still happy about my plant, so i don't complain.

Fine, healthy looking tree.   ;) Great thread and since we both are growing in a greenhouse thought I'd share my first real harvests of dwarf mangos - Pickering and Mallika.  Highly recommend Pickering. It is nectar of the gods.  ;)  Picking my first Mallika today which folks say is even better.  (No way!)

I am making a big revision to my greenhouse by removing the "Dyna-Glas SolarSoft 85" polycarbonate on the north roof line that has turned out to allow about 60% light transmission and going to Clear.

Good luck!






It's always nice to hear from fellows zone pushers!
Pickering is on my "want to get" list from a solid 5 years, and you can bet that if Italian customs were a bit more dependable, i would have bought a plant long time ago! It looks especially promising for container culture and the high score it get in most reviews make this plant a perfect choice for zone pushers. Someday....
Regarding the covering of the greenhouse, i sticking with a completely dark north roof. My idea is that "no good comes from the north" and more seriously, that side if the roof is just a heat loss for me. So i just covered with insulating material. What i'm asking to myself is: is really worth the effort, to cover the side of the roof that faces the inside of the greenhouse, with some reflective mylar? The whole philosophy behind my enclosure is "small gains that builds up" so probably i should. But on other hand, never hear of anyone using mylar for his own plants.
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Mark in Texas

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2015, 08:03:52 PM »
One of my greenhouses was attached to the south facing wall of a garage.  I painted that south facing wall with a couple of coats of pure white latex exterior enamel.  The light reflected was incredible.

Having said that, don't dismiss the light provided from a north exposure.  I was like many assuming northern sky light is minimal regarding photocandle intensity, it is not.  It's quite considerable contrary to "herd thought".   Get a light meter that measures 10K f.c. and remove all doubt.  ;)

Good luck,
Mark
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 08:06:49 PM by Mark in Texas »

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2015, 09:25:11 AM »
Pancrazio, good job with the soil.  I would not recommend adding mulch since it can also raise your nitrogen level.
Adiel

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2015, 05:17:03 AM »
Thank you. Aside from that, mulching seems a big work considering my setup. And moreover, so far, so good. So i won't change anything for now. But i admit that mulching seems to be a solid suggestion. If only i had two plants to keep some kind of comparation i would do it for sure.
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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2015, 07:57:25 AM »
Hi!, There is a dwarf variety called Amarapalli which could be used as dwarfing root-stock. The feeling that I get is that the architecture that you are following is what was developed by the S. Africans, probably not suitable for your application. If you could follow the Japanese architecture then you could manage your plant better. I have been following your type of architecture for my Rambutan plantation, there are some plants that are of the Japanese architecture, they are dwarf, bushy, and have larger number of apical buds. Using black LLDPE mulch would increase temperature around the rootzone.

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2015, 06:45:33 PM »
Pan - I'm a bit late to your updated thread here, but very happy to see the plant is so
healthy looking.  Yeah, that late winter storm - socko!!!!!!! Too bad, but I am glad
you a deformed Glenn to taste and some of it was OK you said.  My guess is that in years when
the weather perfectly cooperates you will get a small crop of mangoes and on other
years when it doesn't the going might be tough....the lower the zone number the more things
have to go absolutely right to give positive results!

And by the way, I am in the political camp of YES to MULCH!  It keeps the soil more even
and stable as far as temp and moisture and has the added benefit of breaking down to nourish the plant.

Great work....you're learning some tough (and good) lessons which will help you in
the future hopefully....

Gary from Palm Springs, CA

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2015, 07:58:23 AM »
Hi!, There is a dwarf variety called Amarapalli which could be used as dwarfing root-stock. The feeling that I get is that the architecture that you are following is what was developed by the S. Africans, probably not suitable for your application. If you could follow the Japanese architecture then you could manage your plant better.

Hi jacob. I think your suggestion are well put. Honestly i didn't follow any particular architectural model, i just pruned (tip pruned to be honest) when i tought it was necessary. I will look about it.
Regarding the varieties, too bad in Italy we have a scarce selection. I have had big troubles even in finding a single Glenn. Amarapalli is out of discussion, is totally unavailable to me.
Also, to be suited to my gowing method a variety needs to have:
  • Slow (or at least manageable) growth (but this is obvious)
  • High disease resistance (about 3 months are carachterized by high humidity and low temperatues)
  • High productivity (since the plant will always need to remain small)
  • Low total heat needed for ripeness!
  • Capability to produce several flowerings in succession (if the first one fails because the cold spring, i need to count on a second one)
  • Low temperature needed for fertilization
  • Ideally the polyembriony should help but the jury is still out on this
The point is that that the small size is just one of the factors, and not even the most important because, if you consider the cold climate, the need to get 2 flowerings, the time and the energy needed to bring the flowers to ripe fruits and so on, ideally the plant should have little energy left for growing. Probably disease resistance and capability of fertilization with low temperatures are the most crucial factors.

Pan - I'm a bit late to your updated thread here, but very happy to see the plant is so
healthy looking.  Yeah, that late winter storm - socko!!!!!!! Too bad, but I am glad
you a deformed Glenn to taste and some of it was OK you said.  My guess is that in years when
the weather perfectly cooperates you will get a small crop of mangoes and on other
years when it doesn't the going might be tough....the lower the zone number the more things
have to go absolutely right to give positive results!


Hey Gary thank you for your encoragment! I can't say that i don't have my share of problem in growing this plant. Well, at least i don't get sun burn on my fruits, like the ones in Palm Springs.  ;) But for sure i'm envious of your climate where you can grow pretty much any mango you want. Have you been able to get some crop this year? Your plant should start to be nicely sized at this point. I must have missed your updates lately. Sometimes this forum is so active that i troubles getting hold on all the news!
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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2015, 12:51:26 PM »
There is polyembrionic tree in my garden which keeps on flowering all year round with fruits at all stages of maturity. The fruits have low fiber and small stones. Very disease resistant we have 90+ RH most of the time, with dew in the mornings. Till date we have not used any insecticide or pesticide on the tree even the organic ones. Some anthracanose spots appear on fruits, however we dip the harvested mature fruits in sour milk and keep them on rice  straw to ripen which appear to contain the infection.
regards, jacob

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2015, 01:02:47 PM »
Buongiorno Pan ----- I can send you budwood from my Pickering.  Also Cogshall, Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest.  Let me know.   If you would like I have 5 small seedling Pickering trees started this year.  Finding a small grafted Pickering will take some time.   

Dan
Dan

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2015, 04:18:04 PM »
There is polyembrionic tree in my garden which keeps on flowering all year round with fruits at all stages of maturity. The fruits have low fiber and small stones. Very disease resistant we have 90+ RH most of the time, with dew in the mornings. Till date we have not used any insecticide or pesticide on the tree even the organic ones. Some anthracanose spots appear on fruits, however we dip the harvested mature fruits in sour milk and keep them on rice  straw to ripen which appear to contain the infection.
regards, jacob

Hey Jacob, to be honest i can't say i'm not intrigued! How long takes for the fruit to ripen?

Buongiorno Pan ----- I can send you budwood from my Pickering.  Also Cogshall, Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest.  Let me know.   If you would like I have 5 small seedling Pickering trees started this year.  Finding a small grafted Pickering will take some time.   

Dan

Dan!!! How nice to see you here!  :D
I was wondering how you were doing lately, maybe it's just a impression of mine, but i have seen you less active lately on the forums... i hope that the reason is that you got a lot to harvest do to in the garden!  ;)
I got both the veinte cohol to flower but due a unfortunate serie of events, i got no ripe fruits. But i've got aw plenty of pups so next year must be the right year i'm sure!
This year i will leave my dwarf namwah in ground all winter long so i will try your method of overwintering... wish me luck!
Thank you for your offer! I just got few pickerings scion recently and i have grafted them last week. I hope they will take! Since i'm not sure if they will take i have left the variety in my signature but i hope this variety will become estabilished soon at my house. But i take note of your offer! Maybe i will take the cogshall, but not now (the season for grafting is about to end), better in spring.
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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2015, 11:50:12 PM »
Usually the fruits ripen within 6 to 7 days. We harvest at full maturity. Another experiment that we are doing is using Prohexedione Calcium (Regalis Plus BASF) at 70% maturity to reduce incidence of Post harvest Physiological disorders like spongy tissue. We are also using Regalis to reduce Physiological disorders of Mangosteen fruits.
Regards
Jacob

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2015, 05:46:50 AM »
I think i didn't explain myself properly; maybe due to the fact that ripeness and maturity in italian are said with the same word, so i sometimes mix up the two.
What i mean, is how much time pass between the end of the flowering and the maturity of a fruit on the same panicle. This helps me calculate the degree/day needed by that mango to get mature fruits. I have found that at my place i have about 1000-1200 degree day from june 1st to the end of the summer (with a base temperature of 14°C) so mangoes which require more than that temperature probably won't ripen at my place.
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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2015, 06:15:50 AM »
Yes, but normally in Tuscany there are 4 "ideal" months for Mango....at least from the end of May to the end of Sep...you got your fruits in early september....and it came from the first flowering (most of first flowers were removed to make Mango flower later)...so in 5 month (1 also with not perfect temperatures) Mango can ripe in Tuscany?!

How do you explain that the second flowering (with many more flowers) didn't give you any fruits?

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Re: Mango in central Italy: an experiment.
« Reply #99 on: September 19, 2015, 03:34:07 PM »
Pancrazio,

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