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Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Jose Spain on February 08, 2018, 07:52:53 AM

Title: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 08, 2018, 07:52:53 AM
Hi,

I'm trying to find Copper(II) hydroxide here in Spain to make my own paint and is being way difficult. Shops don't sell less than 5 kilos for 45Ä and you need a professional card of pesticide manipulator (which I don't have) to purchase it. There is any other copper fungicide easier to find that can be use as an alternative to Copper Hydroxide to prepare the paint?

Thanks for your help

Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Bananaizme on February 08, 2018, 08:09:06 AM
 I just bought a 4 pound bag off ebay .
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 08, 2018, 08:46:01 AM
I just bought a 4 pound bag off ebay .

Thank you Bananaizme. Could you give me the link so I can check shipping cost into EU?
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Triloba Tracker on February 08, 2018, 11:52:29 AM
Jose, how much finished product are you wanting to make?
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 08, 2018, 11:57:11 AM
Jose, how much finished product are you wanting to make?

Enough to paint about 50 pots, 1.5 galons each.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Triloba Tracker on February 08, 2018, 03:47:16 PM
Jose, how much finished product are you wanting to make?

Enough to paint about 50 pots, 1.5 galons each.

Ok got it.....there are lots of posts here about root pruning paint so you've probably already read about MicroKote...You can check their website but from my experience with it, a little goes a pretty long way. May be easier than trying to make your own since you don't need a ton of it.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 08, 2018, 04:26:17 PM
Jose, how much finished product are you wanting to make?

Enough to paint about 50 pots, 1.5 galons each.

Ok got it.....there are lots of posts here about root pruning paint so you've probably already read about MicroKote...You can check their website but from my experience with it, a little goes a pretty long way. May be easier than trying to make your own since you don't need a ton of it.

Problem is that Microkote is not for sale in Europe. So apparently I don't have other option that to make it myself or buy paint for ships. :-\
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Triloba Tracker on February 08, 2018, 04:34:05 PM
Oh no! Bummer. I didnít realize that about MicroKote
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Bananaizme on February 09, 2018, 12:24:08 AM
  Jose  I just looked at the shipping info and it excluded Europe . Sorry.

 William
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Chandramohan on February 09, 2018, 02:02:07 AM
You can use 'Kocide 101' manufactured by Dupont, which might be available in Spain. This product contains 77% Copper hydroxide.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 09, 2018, 07:36:34 AM
You can use 'Kocide 101' manufactured by Dupont, which might be available in Spain. This product contains 77% Copper hydroxide.

Not for sale in EU either :/ Thanks. I have Copper oxide and Dicopper chloride trihydroxide, but I don't know if they have the same properties than hydroxide.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Ulfr on February 09, 2018, 08:32:49 AM
Copper sulfate and ammonia (to make CuOH2) though that would be a pain  :P

Both CuO and Cu2(OH)3Cl should put a dent in fungi and prune/suppress roots. No idea if you would want to use them or not and this isnít advice to do either. I would lean towards copper oxide being ok, see if you can find anything on it being used. How about copper carbonate?
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 09, 2018, 08:57:23 AM
DIY formula.  http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3239.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3239.0)

FWIW it's worth, been using root tip pruning systems for decades.  Copper paints are about the best.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 09, 2018, 02:39:49 PM
DIY formula.  [url]http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3239.0[/url] ([url]http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3239.0[/url])

FWIW it's worth, been using root tip pruning systems for decades.  Copper paints are about the best.


Thank you Mark, actually that was the thread from which I got the info. I found more info about it, see below ;)

Copper sulfate and ammonia (to make CuOH2) though that would be a pain  :P

Both CuO and Cu2(OH)3Cl should put a dent in fungi and prune/suppress roots. No idea if you would want to use them or not and this isnít advice to do either. I would lean towards copper oxide being ok, see if you can find anything on it being used. How about copper carbonate?



You were right Ulfr, I think that all 4 of them would work. I follow your tip and searched for info and I found a patent which explain this:

"Preferably, the water-insoluble copper compound is in powder form and selected from the group consisting of copper oxychloride, copper oxide, copper carbonate and copper hydroxide.The particle size of the compound in powder form is preferably in the range of 0.5 to 2 microns. Suitable copper compounds meeting the above requirements are commercialized by GRIFFIN CORP. under the trademarks KOCIDE 101 or SPIN OUT FP. These compounds contain proprietary ingredients enhancing the dispersion and activity of the basic copper compound, which is preferably copper hydroxide. As aforesaid, the copper compound acts as a growth regulator by chemically pruning the rootlets and radicles that come in contact with it.

Here the patent: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US5575112.pdf

Now I must find out how much copper oxychloride (which is the easiest to find here) I must add to one litre of latex paint to make it work.  :)

Thank you both.

Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Ulfr on February 09, 2018, 03:45:58 PM
Thatís great Jose.

Keep us posted on how it goes :)
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 10, 2018, 07:46:48 AM
Jose you could also use air/light to root prune.  I use RootBuilder and make my own bottomless pots adding panels to them as needed or based on the tree requirements.  For example avocados have a wide shallow root system so they get about 55 gal. pots.  If a roll is cost prohibited to ship I'd recommend the white fabric pots which happens to be one of the staff's favorite grow pots.  She lives in Alabama which gets quite hot in the summer.  The design requires less water and the white helps reflect the sun's rays.

Open up the photo of the Moro blood orange.  There's two white thick roots about 7:30 and 5:00 growing into the native soil.  Perimeter roots are almost none existent and there's no root spin out.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50)

BTW, some of those trees are/were (had a hard freeze, heater malfunction) pruned to 10'.  Thanks to the freeze we recently processed at least 300 blood oranges, 50 Meyer lemons and put up some incredible batches of orange marmalade, gallons of juice, ice cubes, etc.  Hombre, if you've never done orange marmalade you are missing it.  ;)
 (https://s10.postimg.cc/rodltg3wl/Marmalade_Feb1_3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rodltg3wl/)

Good luck!

Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: greenman62 on February 11, 2018, 09:38:04 AM
the $1 dolla-store has several sizes of containers
i use a knife and punch holes in the side.
(wiggle the knife a bit to open it up)
ive had great success with this.
if you need 1 or 2 containers and have the $%, get root-pruning pots,
but, i needed lots, this was much cheaper.

i have a couple of fabric containers,
and for some reason they stay damp and get moldy.
i am always sitting them in the sun, on top of something
to let them dry.
maybe this is good for Jabos in the summer...

(https://s18.postimg.cc/z3mzlqqj9/BASIL_papaya-pots.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/z3mzlqqj9/)
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jack, Nipomo on February 11, 2018, 10:39:40 AM
Bottom paints for boats are available in almost countries.  The copper bottom paints eliminate algae and other marine growths. Lots of different versions and could be found in a ship store or other port facilities.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 11, 2018, 03:02:41 PM
Jose you could also use air/light to root prune.  I use RootBuilder and make my own bottomless pots adding panels to them as needed or based on the tree requirements.  For example avocados have a wide shallow root system so they get about 55 gal. pots.  If a roll is cost prohibited to ship I'd recommend the white fabric pots which happens to be one of the staff's favorite grow pots.  She lives in Alabama which gets quite hot in the summer.  The design requires less water and the white helps reflect the sun's rays.

Open up the photo of the Moro blood orange.  There's two white thick roots about 7:30 and 5:00 growing into the native soil.  Perimeter roots are almost none existent and there's no root spin out.
[url]http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50[/url] ([url]http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50[/url])

BTW, some of those trees are/were (had a hard freeze, heater malfunction) pruned to 10'.  Thanks to the freeze we recently processed at least 300 blood oranges, 50 Meyer lemons and put up some incredible batches of orange marmalade, gallons of juice, ice cubes, etc.  Hombre, if you've never done orange marmalade you are missing it.  ;)
 ([url]https://s10.postimg.cc/rodltg3wl/Marmalade_Feb1_3.jpg[/url]) ([url]https://postimg.cc/image/rodltg3wl/[/url])

Good luck!


Hi Mark! That marmalade looks really good amigo, I have orange trees here, Tarocco Rosso and Maltese, both close to Moro. I must try marmalade, here is quite popular bitter orange marmalade, but I do prefer sweet. I saw what happened to your greenhouse few weeks ago, sorry for that, but you found the best way to keep going :)

Regarding pots just today I planted one Maha mango into a 4 gallons airpot. I really don't need to make such an amazing setting like yours (your fruit porn thread is in my bookmarks ;)) because my trees will grow outside. What I'm interested in is developing a very good root system before planting them in their definitive spot. For that I can use the cooper painting and save some water, which here is expensive and scarce (we are facing the second consecutive year of drought, and I'm afraid that 2018 is going to be way worse than 2017). I have plenty of plastic pots already that I gonna paint and reuse. Those fabric pots though seem really interesting and they are much cheaper than air-pots. Do they do a similar effect on root system than airpots and cooper?

the $1 dolla-store has several sizes of containers
i use a knife and punch holes in the side.
(wiggle the knife a bit to open it up)
ive had great success with this.
if you need 1 or 2 containers and have the $%, get root-pruning pots,
but, i needed lots, this was much cheaper.

i have a couple of fabric containers,
and for some reason they stay damp and get moldy.
i am always sitting them in the sun, on top of something
to let them dry.
maybe this is good for Jabos in the summer...




Thanks for the tip. A friend of mine told me that plastic fruit boxes also work great as air-pots. Problem is the waste of water. By using copper paint I can keep my watering rate and keep my water bill under tolerable levels :)

Bottom paints for boats are available in almost countries.  The copper bottom paints eliminate algae and other marine growths. Lots of different versions and could be found in a ship store or other port facilities.


Yes, you're right I found that kind of paint here, the trades I found are quite expensive though, between 42 and 55 dollars 0.20 gallons. For that money I can make more copper paint that I gonna need in many years. Anyway it would be interesting to know if anybody tried this paint for fruit trees and got good results.





Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 11, 2018, 03:13:52 PM
Now some basic numbers here. In metric system the proportions that appear in the thread linked by Mark are 200gr of 50% Copper(II) hydroxide for one litre of painting (26 oz per Gal). But what I have is 50% Copper oxychloride. Since the last has 2 atoms of Cu per molecule Cu2(OH)3Cl while the first has one [Cu(OH2)6]2 and what matters here is the copper, I suppose that maybe 100gr of oxychlorid will give us a similar result than 200 gr of hidroxide. Any thoughts/suggestions?

Copper (II) hydroxide:

(https://s10.postimg.cc/xax3oan91/copper_hidroxide.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xax3oan91/)


Copper oxychloride:


(https://s10.postimg.cc/ndm2v9xnp/cooper_oxyclorure.gif) (https://postimg.cc/image/ndm2v9xnp/)
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Ulfr on February 11, 2018, 11:14:06 PM
Cu(OH)2 is 97.3g/mole/Cu (grams per mole per copper)

Cu2(OH)3Cl is 213.5g/mole or divide by two for 106.75 g/mole/Cu.

Pretty close really, you would need about 109.7g of the Cu2(OH)3Cl to get the same amount of copper as 100g of Cu(OH)2 if you had pure substances.

You have 50% solutions (I assume by mass) and so in place of the 200g of 50% Cu(OH)2 you would need 219.4g of 50% Cu2(OH)3Cl.

Disclaimer: Please check my maths and just use this as a starting point not advice haha.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 12, 2018, 04:58:10 AM
Cu(OH)2 is 97.3g/mole/Cu (grams per mole per copper)

Cu2(OH)3Cl is 213.5g/mole or divide by two for 106.75 g/mole/Cu.

Pretty close really, you would need about 109.7g of the Cu2(OH)3Cl to get the same amount of copper as 100g of Cu(OH)2 if you had pure substances.

You have 50% solutions (I assume by mass) and so in place of the 200g of 50% Cu(OH)2 you would need 219.4g of 50% Cu2(OH)3Cl.

Disclaimer: Please check my maths and just use this as a starting point not advice haha.

Thank you Ulfr! I'll use that quantities and report results in this thread ;) I bought already 5 litres of latex vinyl painting and 550gr of oxyclorure. I will dilute the latex paint first probably.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 12, 2018, 07:21:36 AM
What I'm interested in is developing a very good root system before planting them in their definitive spot. For that I can use the cooper painting and save some water, which here is expensive and scarce (we are facing the second consecutive year of drought, and I'm afraid that 2018 is going to be way worse than 2017). I have plenty of plastic pots already that I gonna paint and reuse. Those fabric pots though seem really interesting and they are much cheaper than air-pots. Do they do a similar effect on root system than airpots and cooper?

Yes, both systems will root prune.  Glad you like the thread, thanks!

You asked for alternatives, if they're going into the ground you may not want or need to root prune first.  Let me save you some grief.  Have the hole ready, pop the root ball out, set it on a table and using a very sharp knife make 4 vertical cuts top to bottom about 2 cms. deep concentrating on cutting thru any spin out at the very bottom.  Plant.  This will insure there's no root spinout and will induce the same kind of root lateral branching as the other systems.  Best of all, it's easy peasy.  If you're in clay soil DO NOT amend the backfill.  Return the original soil back into the hole.

Another caveat, the tree coming out of the copper treated pot will tend to be stunted for a while regarding root growth.  There is a residual effect from the copper ions.  Brushing off the rootball's perimeter soil helps.  Again, I'd just go with my first recommendation.  I have literally planted 10,000 or so trees over the years (Choose and cut Xmas tree op) and it always works.

Yeah, we're in a severe drought too.  What about rain water collection?  It's a great way to go!

Good luck,
Mark
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 13, 2018, 02:51:49 PM
What I'm interested in is developing a very good root system before planting them in their definitive spot. For that I can use the cooper painting and save some water, which here is expensive and scarce (we are facing the second consecutive year of drought, and I'm afraid that 2018 is going to be way worse than 2017). I have plenty of plastic pots already that I gonna paint and reuse. Those fabric pots though seem really interesting and they are much cheaper than air-pots. Do they do a similar effect on root system than airpots and cooper?

Yes, both systems will root prune.  Glad you like the thread, thanks!

You asked for alternatives, if they're going into the ground you may not want or need to root prune first.  Let me save you some grief.  Have the hole ready, pop the root ball out, set it on a table and using a very sharp knife make 4 vertical cuts top to bottom about 2 cms. deep concentrating on cutting thru any spin out at the very bottom.  Plant.  This will insure there's no root spinout and will induce the same kind of root lateral branching as the other systems.  Best of all, it's easy peasy.  Another caveat, the tree coming out of the copper treated pot will tend to be stunted for a while regarding root growth.  There is a residual effect from the copper ions.  Brushing off the rootball's perimeter soil helps.  Again, I'd just go with my first recommendation.  I have literally planted 10,000 or so trees over the years (Choose and cut Xmas tree op) and it always works.

Thanks for the tips Mark!! I really appreciate them. In my case there are some rootstocks that will go into a pot for grafting this year, so I'll try to avoid problems by using the paint method (for example this week I have to plant in pots 12 dwarf plums rootstocks that I received today from UK).

If you're in clay soil DO NOT amend the backfill.  Return the original soil back into the hole.

Yeah, we're in a severe drought too.  What about rain water collection?  It's a great way to go!

Good luck,
Mark

About clay, this is really interesting, I didn't know. I do have clay in my garden, but in my case it's not that simple, upper horizon is clay but lower horizon is sandy and it drains very well. What's the reason to don't amend soil in this case? Drain problems, "pot effect" or another reason/s?

I'm planning to install two fiberglass deposits to gather rain water from my roof. Here I usually get around 700-800 mm a year, but usually not a single drop when most needed (summer).
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 16, 2018, 12:33:29 PM
Pot effect, meaning a non draining clay hole.  If the sand is not too far down and you can punch thru it with a post hole digger, this is all a moot point about the backfill.  Fracture the sides of the clay hole with a pick ax, breaker bar, etc.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Triloba Tracker on February 16, 2018, 02:58:56 PM
From what Iíve read, the current recommendation is not to amend the backfill when planting perennials because of this pot effect where drainage is an issue but also it creates a differential between the enriched backfill and the native soil, where the roots do not venture out into the native soil.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 17, 2018, 03:24:08 AM
From what Iíve read, the current recommendation is not to amend the backfill when planting perennials because of this pot effect where drainage is an issue but also it creates a differential between the enriched backfill and the native soil, where the roots do not venture out into the native soil.

Yes, that's what I understood also, the draining problem explained by Mark makes a lot of sense now that I think of it. A hole filled with good, absorbent soil becomes a "cup" when surrounded by clay. In my case, since clay is just about the first foot/ foot and a half of soil, I never had any problem with my soil draining even when amending with other substrates. But the roots not venturing into the clay would probably be an issue to consider; if it just affects the size of the tree, actually could be more an advantage for me, since I'm running out of space. Anyway I'm mulching heavily my trees, so in the long term they will probably develop most of their roots through the upper, rich new lay of soil. I will have all this useful information in mind when planting my next trees. Thank you both for it.  ;)
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 17, 2018, 07:06:41 AM
From what Iíve read, the current recommendation is not to amend the backfill when planting perennials because of this pot effect where drainage is an issue but also it creates a differential between the enriched backfill and the native soil, where the roots do not venture out into the native soil.

That is correct.   Roots will spin out in the "clay pot", a drenching storm will come along and down the 10' tree goes.  Seen it first hand in heavy black clay.

The good doctor says it better than I can: https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/soil-amendments.pdf

In the field and around the house I prepped my planting holes, vineyard too, with a 3 pt. subsoiler that with several passes (took me 8 on the vineyard) can eventually be dropped to 2' deep.  The roots love the fractures, explore the native soil and just explode in growth.  Heavy red clay loam too where the chunks come up boulder size.  :D

(https://s10.postimg.cc/7iszk1xo5/Subsoiler.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7iszk1xo5/)
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: KarenRei on February 17, 2018, 11:27:12 AM
I happen to have some copper sulfate on-hand.  Anyone see any reason why copper sulfate in latex paint wouldn't work in basically the same manner as copper hydroxide?
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Chandramohan on February 17, 2018, 11:33:57 AM
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Triloba Tracker on February 17, 2018, 01:07:52 PM
Mark - thatís the same idea as a broadfork, yeah?
Did you do that prior to digging holes and planting I guess? How far out from planting site did you go with it?


Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: KarenRei on February 17, 2018, 01:45:58 PM
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Ulfr on February 17, 2018, 04:02:52 PM
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

All three Compunds mentioned by Jose are insoluble ;)

Regarding the plan to precipitate out Cu(OH)2 keep in mind the Zn(OH)2 is only slightly soluble itself so you would need to use an acid or base to dissolve it first. Itís doable but probably not worth the effort if you can find one of the mentioned insoluble Cu compounds locally.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 17, 2018, 04:04:21 PM
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

Would not be easier for you to get some Copper oxyclorure? It's the most common copper fungicide here in Europe.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 17, 2018, 04:06:38 PM
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

All three Compunds mentioned by Jose are insoluble ;)


The Oxyclorure I bought is special to be disolved with water, did I buy the wrong one?  ::)
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Ulfr on February 17, 2018, 04:21:36 PM
Depends what it is? Cu2(OH)3Cl Is insoluble. Is there an acid with it? Or is it just meant to be mixed with water to make a suspension (think cloudy/tiny solid particles in water) rather than a solution? You would want the pure solid in a powder form I imagine. I havenít made these, just helping with the chem :)

I have no experience with the products they sell sorry.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: KarenRei on February 17, 2018, 05:04:04 PM
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

Would not be easier for you to get some Copper oxyclorure? It's the most common copper fungicide here in Europe.

Not in Iceland it wouldn't  ;)

Seriously, just as an example: do you know the grand total number of pesticides I've found in all the garden centres here?  Guess.

The answer: two.  I'm not joking.  Both pyrethroids.  You can't even buy diatomaceous earth here.

I could buy things online, but shipping and customs costs would be quite high, and customs may give me trouble for shipping in chemicals.  I could buy them in the US when on vacation next, but I imagine that the TSA might read me the riot act for bringing in chemicals.  Shipping takes weeks regardless, and who knows when my next US vacation will be.  But I have copper sulphate and cement today  :)

The reaction seems to have gone pretty well (it was quite noticeably reacting).  One difficulty (vs. using sodium hydroxide, which I don't have onhand) is that calcium sulphate (plaster of paris / gypsum) can be - depending on the form - either well, or only poorly, soluble in water.  So I don't know how much I washed away during the filtration; I suspect some of it (possibly even most of it) is left behind.  Not like calcium sulphate should be a problem in the latex paint, it just means I should use more of the powder.  The key part is that I did 3-4 filtration/rinse cycles, so that should have gotten the vast majority of any water-soluble copper compounds out.  :)   I'm drying it now.

One nice advantage: the copper sulphate was large coarse crystals that I would have had to try to crush fine with a mortar and pestle.  The insoluble precipitate here is an extremely fine bluish "clay".

Trivia: one neat thing you can do with copper hydroxide is to dissolve it in ammonia; this makes Schweizer's reagent, which can dissolve cellulose  :)  You can then precipitate the cellulose out as a fine powder by adding acid.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Ulfr on February 17, 2018, 05:17:48 PM
You are certainly determined haha!

Good work :)
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: KarenRei on February 17, 2018, 06:03:24 PM
You are certainly determined haha!

Good work :)

I'll start out with trialing just one plant, of course  ;)  I have an excess of tamarillos, and one needs to be repotted, so it'll have to be my guinea pig!
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Chandramohan on February 17, 2018, 10:06:52 PM
The bluish clayee Cu(OH)2 will in a day or two turn black to CuO., which will still do the job I believe. Any way best of luck.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 18, 2018, 09:02:01 AM
Mark - thatís the same idea as a broadfork, yeah?
Did you do that prior to digging holes and planting I guess? How far out from planting site did you go with it?

On my farm I have fractured over a mile of rows for trees and grapevines and then run a tiller over it to break up the massive chunks.  Around the house about 60 spots got fractured in a criss cross pattern running the tractor maybe 30' each way but dropping the subsoiler about 6' from the spot.  Due to the angle of the chisel foot it drops into the soil fast.   Hard clay like mine takes several passes dropping the foot down a little each time or else the tractor spins out, and that's with 4WD engaged.  Also did the greenhouse before it was built, 3 rows.

Don't know what a broadfork is.  If is looks like mine, then it will work.
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 19, 2018, 11:48:18 AM
Depends what it is? Cu2(OH)3Cl Is insoluble. Is there an acid with it? Or is it just meant to be mixed with water to make a suspension (think cloudy/tiny solid particles in water) rather than a solution? You would want the pure solid in a powder form I imagine. I havenít made these, just helping with the chem :)

I have no experience with the products they sell sorry.

I think is like you said. I filled the bucket I use to make the mix with water and it was clear the day after, so it seems that got attached to the latex.

Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

Would not be easier for you to get some Copper oxyclorure? It's the most common copper fungicide here in Europe.

Not in Iceland it wouldn't  ;)

Seriously, just as an example: do you know the grand total number of pesticides I've found in all the garden centres here?  Guess.

The answer: two.  I'm not joking.  Both pyrethroids.  You can't even buy diatomaceous earth here.

I could buy things online, but shipping and customs costs would be quite high, and customs may give me trouble for shipping in chemicals.  I could buy them in the US when on vacation next, but I imagine that the TSA might read me the riot act for bringing in chemicals.  Shipping takes weeks regardless, and who knows when my next US vacation will be.  But I have copper sulphate and cement today  :)

The reaction seems to have gone pretty well (it was quite noticeably reacting).  One difficulty (vs. using sodium hydroxide, which I don't have onhand) is that calcium sulphate (plaster of paris / gypsum) can be - depending on the form - either well, or only poorly, soluble in water.  So I don't know how much I washed away during the filtration; I suspect some of it (possibly even most of it) is left behind.  Not like calcium sulphate should be a problem in the latex paint, it just means I should use more of the powder.  The key part is that I did 3-4 filtration/rinse cycles, so that should have gotten the vast majority of any water-soluble copper compounds out.  :)   I'm drying it now.

One nice advantage: the copper sulphate was large coarse crystals that I would have had to try to crush fine with a mortar and pestle.  The insoluble precipitate here is an extremely fine bluish "clay".

Trivia: one neat thing you can do with copper hydroxide is to dissolve it in ammonia; this makes Schweizer's reagent, which can dissolve cellulose  :)  You can then precipitate the cellulose out as a fine powder by adding acid.

Didn't expect that getting gardening stuff could be so difficult in Iceland. Good luck with your experiment. I will keep you updated on how works mine. With all this chemistry formulas,  blue crystals and so on, I'm thinking of renaming the thread to something like Breaking Bad Garden...  ;D
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: KarenRei on February 19, 2018, 12:12:01 PM
Hahaha -  I can just imagine explaining that to the police... "No, I swear, I'm making an anti-root-binding paint!  And those grow lights are for tropical fruit trees, I promise!"  ;)
Title: Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
Post by: Jose Spain on February 19, 2018, 12:27:20 PM
"Tropical fruits?? In Iceland??? Sure, explain that to the judge..."  ;D ;D ;D