Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons  (Read 796 times)

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« on: February 15, 2018, 12:40:15 PM »
This winter I grow many different hybrid seedlings. I observe that Poncirus seedlings have their cotyledons not paired like in Citrus. The 2nd cotyledon is always  higher than the first one. Citrus and Microcitrus have them very close to each other in pairs.
Citrus x Poncirus seedlings are mixed. Some are paired but the most are like Poncirus.
Does someone observed the same?
I wonder if this trait is suitable to find more Citrus like hybrids among seedlings. For now it is impossible to tell if it is connected to poncirin free fruits but would be interesting to find out.

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2018, 04:41:09 AM »
Here are some pictures
in cotyledons in pairs like in Citrus
Hana Yuzu

https://flic.kr/p/Gg4WaW

like Poncirus
N1tri (Ichang Papeda x Poncirus or Poncirus Hybrid)

https://flic.kr/p/23j3BsL

in between

C-35 seedling with nearly paired cotyledons


https://flic.kr/p/Gg4Wh9

C-35 (sister of the other one) with Poncirus like cotyledons


https://flic.kr/p/23j3BJs

and
Batumi F2

https://flic.kr/p/Gg4WpJ
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 05:34:06 AM by mikkel »

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2018, 05:36:27 AM »
Sorry i can`t post pictures in my post. >img< button does not work. neither with flickr nor with vgy.me

Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2018, 09:57:24 AM »
Sorry i can`t post pictures in my post. >img< button does not work. neither with flickr nor with vgy.me
;D
HanaYuzu

N1tri

C35

Another  C35

Batumi F2


I think that what you are taking for eccentrically situated cotyledons are true leaves with cotyledons that are still covered with testa in germinated seeds.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling First Leaves
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2018, 01:10:11 PM »
Thanks Ilya! I wonder what is wrong with my computer...
Your`re right! These aren`t cotyledons.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 01:12:07 PM by mikkel »

Marcin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 30
    • Rzeszˇw, Poland 6a
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 05:39:00 PM »
Interesting post, Mikkel. I have similar observations - most citrus seedlings have the first two leaves paired. Poncirus and Microcitrus seedlings are different - their first few leaves are very small and don't grow in pairs.
Citrus (kumquat) x Poncirus seedlings are somewhat in between, but rather unpaired. And when there are more Citrus genes, the seedlings are more likely to develop like true citrus.

Poncirus:


Microcitrus (fingerlime):


Reale kumquat hybrid x Poncirus trifoliata. Mostly unpaired. Only one seedling has the 2 first leaves exactly paired (the one with narrow leaves, by the way it looks strange ;) ).


Reale x N1tri. The few seedlings that germinated up to now have the first two leaves paired, like true citrus. It's interesting because as your photo shows, N1tri itself has the first leaves unpaired.


Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 06:21:30 PM »
Congratulations in getting hybrids between poncirus and kumquat cross, particularly with triploid one.
May be clementine genome is helping to achieve it.  And  some of them should be  also triploid.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • Bergerac, France
    • View Profile
    • Looking for Wakonai.
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2018, 08:24:34 AM »
The leaves you are talking about are called primordial leaves. In citrus they mostly are opposite but some time alternate.
Just to use the right words.  ;)

Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2018, 08:52:35 AM »
You can also distinguish seedlings  by the appearance of leaves clockwise or counter clockwise and number of nodes to achieve a full turn
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Marcin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 30
    • Rzeszˇw, Poland 6a
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 12:34:52 PM »
Ilya11, thanks. Triploid hybrid sounds interesting, as I understand in this case 2/3 of its genes would come from Reale and only 1/3 from trifoliata. This should give a bit better fruit (less sticky gum etc.) in comparison with a diploid cross being 50% trifoliata.

Sylvain, it's good to know the right name. Thanks for providing it.

Sylvain

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • Bergerac, France
    • View Profile
    • Looking for Wakonai.
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 05:04:30 AM »
> You can also distinguish seedlings  by the appearance of leaves clockwise or counter clockwise
I too thought about that. I noticed that the sense of rotation is acquired for ever and follows the graft, but among seedlings you can find  clockwise and anticlockwise. So it looks more like  a congenital trait than a hereditary trait.
Indeed it would be fascinating to find a population made of uniquely one sense of rotation or a plant that have changed it's sense of rotation!

Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 06:21:23 AM »
Among hundreds of Thomasville  seedlings that seems all to be nucellar, I found only one that has an opposite sense of rotation. Otherwise, it looks to be the same.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • Bergerac, France
    • View Profile
    • Looking for Wakonai.
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2018, 03:51:47 AM »
Very interesting. Could you look your other seedlings populations to see if Thomasville is an exception or the rule?

Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2018, 11:01:05 AM »
Sylvain,
Sometimes, when stems are not round, it is difficult to determine correctly a sense  of growth.
I looked today at last year 5* seedlings that were left after I separated really hybrid ones.
Majority are counterclockwise like 5*, but  I found  several seedlings  that are clockwise. Can not can be 100% sure that are all nucellar.
 Interestingly, I have a variant, clockwise 5* seedling from 2011, that has had  an amazingly rapid growth.
It is now approximately 4 tall, flowered last year and it seems its fruits are less acid than that of original 5*. 
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 10:37:16 AM »
Here are 2 pictures of N░ 1185 seedlings
one is a mix of Poncirus and Citrus , alternate and first leave small like in Poncirus the 2nd larger and round like in Citrus.


https://flic.kr/p/23bXsM2

Most of the others are opposite and round like in Citrus


https://flic.kr/p/23bXsFv

Images still does not work :(
help? :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 02:00:39 PM by mikkel »

Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2018, 02:56:03 PM »



In Mozilla: Go to your flickr link,
put mouse on the image and click with the  left  knob,
than with right knob choose Examine this element option,
you will see below among others a following line ( here for your  first  image):

<img src="//c1.staticflickr.com/5/4707/39505392275_4a05816ebf_z.jpg" class="zoom-small">

click on image insertion tag   of this board ( first icon of the second row  above) and insert the following address between the brackets:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4707/39505392275_4a05816ebf_z.jpg



Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: Hybrid Seedling Cotyledons
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2018, 03:15:00 PM »
Thanks! That works.

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers