The Tropical Fruit Forum
Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: Citradia on March 05, 2017, 09:06:58 PM
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Crazy question: everyone has p. Trifoliata, but who has Ichang papeda (citrus ichangensis)? I know the fruit is supposed to be useless, but what if someone wants a big ol' citrus tree with big ol' fruit on it where it gets down to zero degrees? Who is growing it, and who is selling it or the seeds? Is it any good as a rootstock?
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Huh. Guess not.
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I have it in the ground, it is grafted on poncirus.
Last year I planted its seedlings in the ground, they are growing quite well, survived -9C and 10 days of frozen ground.
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Good for you, Ilya! Thanks for the response. Best wishes.
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I think the reason why it is not being used as rootstock is the variability of its seedlings, they are zygotic and do not reproduce faithfully the mother plant.
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I figured people don't have it because the fruit is supposed to be nasty. But poncyrus trifoliata is nasty and people grow it. I think I read somewhere that trifoliata serves as a better rootstock and is more cold hardy than ichangensis.
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Here in Europe we have a clone of ichangensis - IVIA , that is quite edible.
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Well, I wish we could have that one here, Ilya. Nice to know though.
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Hi everyone
I am new to this forum. I have an ichangensis IVIA and Ilya is right when he says the fruit is quite edible (that is compared to other ichangensis cultivars or Poncirus). My plant is still small and the fruit might become bigger as the tree grows larger. There was not much pulp in the fruits I have harvested so far but there is , in contrast to other ichangensis cultivars. The juice is usable just like lemon juice. Another plus is the fact that they ripen even in our cool summers.
I know reports from Germany of trees surviving down to -18C but I don't know about the IVIA. I haven't tested mine yet since I want to let it grow a bit larger first.
(https://s8.postimg.cc/afrkrz3s1/20161019_171520.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/afrkrz3s1/)
(https://s8.postimg.cc/xv9hxbnj5/IMG_3496.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xv9hxbnj5/)
If in the future it should contain more seeds, I will be happy to share them.
cheers
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Florian welcome to the forum, we are happy to have you as a member.
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Florian, so wonderful to read your post! Thanks for the pic too! Would be nice to have some of those IVIA seeds on this continent, as long as customs and agricultural laws don't prohibit it. Sounds like you all have a great species there that those of us in colder climates can appreciate. Welcome to the forum!
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Thanks for the warm welcome. It would be a pity if your customs didn't allow to send citrus seeds (since I understand they can't carry viruses, can they?). We shall see.. :)
We do indeed have some interesting citrus varieties here but so do you. For example I have never seen a Clemyuz 2-2 for sale here (let alone a dekopon). Also, the Japanese have some good stuff which nobody seems to be able to get their hands on like the seedless Yuzus or the real Yuko..
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Hi Citradia,
I have Ichang papeda, or at least a variant of it. Mine has done well and has not been bothered by the couple of events of single digit weather we've experienced over the last 10 or so years. It has survived a lot of cold along with a few other trusty hardy varieties I have planted out in the yard here in VA. We got hit pretty hard going on three years ago and my trees are starting to come back around. I grafted my Ichang papeda on flying dragon so it isn't very big. It has pretty leaves similar to kaffir lime. My papeda fruit are small and all virtually seedless or have aborted seeds. I feel that my Ichang lemon tree is prettier though and the larger fruit is more useful. It has survived along side the papeda without much issue. If you don't mind the trifoliate leaves Swingle citrumelo will give you a big 'ol tree full of big 'ol citrus fruit too.
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Hi eyeckr. Good to hear from you again. I have several Ichang lemon trees that I grew fro seeds from a lemon you gave me several years ago at the SE citrus expo in Myrtle Beach. Several in ground are 5 ft tall or more and were protected in a high tunnel for the past few years. They look pretty rough this year ironically enough with the warm winter we had. Totally defoliated with some dead branches. I loved the fruit, but at this point doubt that it will be cold hardy enough here when/if they get to big to cover. Don't think I'll be able to cover them next winter. I had a swingle citrumelo but it died in the polar vortex a few years ago. I have some dunsta citrumelo trees, again from one of your fruits, that have survived the past two winters in ground with no protection at all with some leaves still hanging on. I just figured Ichang papeda would be even more hardy than citranges, similar to PT. From what I've read, papeda is supposed to be full of seeds, no?
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Sorry to hear about losing your Swingle. I believe Ichang Papeda is supposed to have seeds but mine does not. If you never got a (Clem x Tri) x Clem or Tai Tri hybrid from me it may be a couple of good ones for you to try there. They both have handled extended freezing and low temps very well and fruit just about every year.
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Yes. Clem x tri is a citrandarin, no? I need to try a mandarin- trifoliate hybrid. Should be pretty hardy.
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So, this year I left the fruit on my ichangensis IVIA until it became soft because on my recent trip (december 22) to Eisenhut I saw their mother plant and it was bearing a few fruit that were ginormous, at least compared to mine:
(https://s18.postimg.cc/vkq6izxed/IMG_4193.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/vkq6izxed/)
The fruit was already post maturity and very soft. I had read before that this cultivar had sweetish rind (!). The nursery owner wouldn't let me have the plant (since it was the mother plant) so I took a nibble when he wasn't looking ;D.
Well, the rind was sweet indeed!
I thought perhaps if I left the fruit on my tree long enough, its rind would become sweetish too but it didn't. In fact, it is horrible. I can't really describe the taste but it is bitter and kerosene-like. I must be doing something wrong. My plant is still potted but so is the mother plant at Eisenhut.. Anyways, here are some pics of the fruit from my tree:
(https://s18.postimg.cc/3yney43p1/IMG_4234.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3yney43p1/)
(https://s18.postimg.cc/8xaxcnmxh/IMG_4237.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8xaxcnmxh/)
(https://s18.postimg.cc/5dozmuzn9/IMG_4238.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5dozmuzn9/)
It was seedless once again.. Although the rind is horrible I am still quite satisfied. It looks like a useable lemon juice source for my climate. The pulp is acid like described above, the albedo has no flavour (but also no bitterness). Here's hoping it becomes as brilliant as the mother plant in the future.. I will certainly contact the nursery and inquire about how they actually care for theirs.
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Florian, when it was flowering?
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Mine? Ehm, I am not sure, I think at the beginning of May. The fruit was yellow in late autumn but I left it on the tree hoping the rind would become sweet.. but it only became soft.
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Probably it is overripe
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Florian, in reference to your tree and the "mother " plant, did your fruiting tree come from this mother plant from seed or graft, and how long did it take for your tree to produce fruit in the pot?
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I have acquired some seeds from ichangensis fruit and as the seedlings grow, I notice some don't look Ichang, but leaves more rounded without large petiole; maybe like Ilya said, the ichangensis is zygotic and some of my seedlings will be different from mother plant. Maybe this is why Florian's plant makes different fruit from his mother plant.
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My plant is grafted. I believe it was 4/5 old when I got it and it was already flowering and fruiting.
I believe it does come from the mother plant pictured but I am not 100% sure. Will have to ask.
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I have an Ichang Papeda IVIA in my Viennese garden (7b/8a Austria) growing on its own roots. It is now five years in ground and never got damaged in winter. Last year it had to take a whole month of freezing temperatures. Ultimate low was -12°C. No protection at all. The offspring of 2017 is totally without spines that's why I hope it will flower the first time this year. A second plant in pot has bloomed in last summer. They come from seed I've got from Bernhard Voss.
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Ichangensis is not true from seeds, so I suppose your plants are different from mature IVIA sold by European nurseries.
IVIA has in its collection two different ichangensis: IVIA-358 (http://www.ivia.gva.es/documents/161862582/163677405/358-PAPEDA+DE+ICHANG+FLOR+GRANDE-IVIA-16.pdf/08073fa6-3310-4319-a964-4a25cc9e9cdb) with big flowers and IVIA-235 (http://www.ivia.gva.es/documents/161862582/163677405/235-PAPEDA+DE+ICHANG-IVIA-16.pdf/baae659b-bc27-490d-a6ac-2023b19c2a1a) with small flowers.
It is IVIA-358 that gives almost seedless fruits of rather good quality.
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Thank you! I knew they don't come true, but my second plant which bloomed already produced a tiny fruit (that fell off) and the shape was very IVIA-like (so to say) But -to be true- the two plants differ a little bit. Let's see. In any case the one in my garden is quite hardy. It took -15° without protection as a young plant. Now it is more than 1m high and new branches miss any spines. That is strange and does not match with the potted tree.
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Robert, do you have a picture of your Ichang Papeda?
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Mikkel yes, but I should make a better one. Young leaves are red or reddish. Very interesting is, that mature branches seem to be thornless. At least on the one Ichang papeda in ground. The other one potted has spines. It has flowered 2017 the first time.
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Welcome, Robert! I'd also love to see pictures of your plants.
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This is my bad picture (https://s9.postimg.cc/4b2zlyrvz/IVIA.jpg)
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As you might see the twigs on top (they are the youngest) do not have thorns. I guess they will flower this year. As I mentioned the flush is red.
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Thanks! Nice plant!
Are fruits of your I.P. IVIA like other I.P. IVIAs? Are they consumable?
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Is it possible that some seeds from Ichangensis fruit may produce a true Ichangensis? It can self pollinate, no? If not, it is probably worth trying to plant seeds from Ichangensis fruit to get more random cold-hardy hybrids, right?
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Mikkel wrote: Are fruits of your I.P. IVIA like other I.P. IVIAs? Are they consumable?
I did not yet have fruits on this plant. One tiny fruit appeared on my potted IVIA (which is a bit different) but fell off. It resembled an IVIA-fruit. which reminds me of Melarosa Lemon.
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Robert,
Do you remember the size of its flowers?
IVIA from Lenzi nursery has enormous flowers with pink hue.
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Is it possible that some seeds from Ichangensis fruit may produce a true Ichangensis? It can self pollinate, no? If not, it is probably worth trying to plant seeds from Ichangensis fruit to get more random cold-hardy hybrids, right?
Yes indeed, when self-pollinated it will give ichangensis plants, but they will be different from each other. This species is very heterogeneous, with flowers of varying colors and sizes, from tall trees to small bushes.
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Ilya, the flower was not very big. But it was its first flower ever and there was only one flower on my potted tree. The one in ground has much bigger leaves and maybe will have bigger flowers. In fact it is very interesting that C ichangensis from seed is that heterogenous. Every single grain should be grown! :D
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Flowers on mine aren't enormous either but they do have a pink hue. And new growth is reddish.
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Thanks for the information, Ilya. I'm growing seeds from two different Ichangensis trees and noticed some seedlings have large petiole and some from other location don't have petiole and resemble an orange or other mandarin leaf. They are all narrow and pointy leaves though, online the Ichang lemon seedlings growing next to them, which have rounded larger leaves in comparison.
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Citradia, interesting that ohne of your Papedas does not have winged petioles. If you take a close look at my (verx bad) picture you can see that there are no wings on the quite big leaves on the upright (highest) twig. The youngest leaves are much bigger than older foliage and they do not have winged petioles and there are no thorns. Very unusual for Ichang papeda, I suppose.
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Well Zitrusgaerner, it sounds to me according to Ilya, that almost all seedlings from Ichangensis are actually hybrids of Ichangensis, so our plants aren't true Ichang papeda, no?
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still true Ichang Papedas but not identical ones :)
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It really depends if it is flowering alone or bees and bumblebees are hybridizing it with other citruses :-*
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I suppose yo are right, Citradia. Obviously this hybrid is hardy enough for my climate that's the point.
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Well I hope my seedlings prove to be hardy and produce descent quality fruit too. May all our papedas be blessed.
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Some better pictures (hope so) of my outdoor Ichang papeda IVIA.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/n145xrsv9/SAM_5087.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/n145xrsv9/)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/97ft8t80l/SAM_5089.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/97ft8t80l/)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/q7yphk5n9/SAM_5093.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q7yphk5n9/)
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Potted Ichang papeda IVIA. Of same age as outdoor in ground specimen.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/yg58g2hpx/SAM_5096.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/yg58g2hpx/)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/b1x949pjp/SAM_5097.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/b1x949pjp/)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/elj6u6n5h/SAM_5104.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/elj6u6n5h/)