Clover cover crop?

[spaugh]

Anyone use this in their groves?  Im trying to figure out ways to smother out weeds and also provide free nitrogen. This is the patented variety That seems to be best since it only gets 4-6" tall.  Let me know if theres something better in your opinion or if this is a waste of time and money.  Keep in mind this will be in a very hot dry area of CA with sandy soil.  Weeds still grow between trees here and Im looking to have this replace them.  What do you guys and gals think?

https://www.outsidepride.com/seed/clover-seed/miniclover.html

[spaugh]

MinicloverŪ (Trifolium repens) is a perennial white clover only growing to approximately 4 - 6 inches tall making it ideal for a lawn alternative or to mix with your current lawn grass. It also works great as a natural fertilizer similarly to other dwarf, small leaved, microclovers. White clover takes nitrogen out of the air, bringing this most essential fertilizer "down-to-earth" by means of nitrogen-fixing bacteria living in nodes along the roots. Of course, all at no cost to you, in terms either of money or of maintenance. MinicloverŪ, a very small leaved white clover, also produces stolons so that it can spread itself evenly over the ground. Adding just 2 - 5% of MinicloverŪ to the grass seed mixture will result in a much-improved lawn. It has all the benefits of regular white clover just packed into smaller leaves

[SeaWalnut]

I have this small clover in my yard and its drought tolerant.
From time to time you can trim it just like grass.
Its also good for animals like chickens .
Grows on hard ,rocky substrate.

[Daintree]

But you have to cut it to release the nitrogen, right?  So if you don't mow it, the nitrogen stays fixed, and unavailable to the other plants. But, if it smothers weeds, that is worth it by itself, even if you don't mow it.

Carolyn

[spaugh]

It stores nitrogen in nodules in the rootzone.  I don't really understand the science involved in how its released or how avaliable it is to surrounding plants.  Maybe someone here knows? 

I use a weed eater to knock things down a few times a year.  Its too steep and rocky and rutted to use a lawn mower here. 

Heres a picture and caption from the web

"These images show nodules on clover roots. The image on the right shows a nodule that has been split open to show the reddish-pink colour inside, which indicates nitrogen fixation."

[SeaWalnut]

If it has root nodules then you dont have to mow it in order to release the nitrogen.
The plant secretes sugar like nectar in those root nodules and bacteria starts to grow feeding on the sugar and it splits the nitrogen from the air around the nodules.
Otther plants can send roots and feed on the nitrogen around the root nodules too.
I mow it maybe twice a year but its not necesarely to mow it in an orchard since its soo low.
Where i grow it its in front of the house and thats why sometimes i mow it wich its verry easy because its a soft plant that you can walk barefoot over it.


Immagine the root nodules as underground flowers wich secrete sugar just like normal flowers.
The bacteria comes to feed on sugar and it grows ( blooms) then the underground flower/ root nodule stops releasing sugar and the bacteria dies and decomposes .After that the nitrogen from the bacteria becomes available.
The bacteria doesnt split the N for the plant,it splits it for herself to grow but the plant can farm bacteria and sacrifices the bacteria to eat it whenever it needs it.
 
I do this too in the pond.I throw a bit of sugar in the water every day and bacteria blooms eating all the phosphorus and taking the Nitrogen from the air.
Then if the bacteria dies suddenly( if i stop feeding sugar) it releases back the phosphorus plus all the N it fixed from the air.
Wich is something i dont want because i want clean water but plants want dirrty water full of nutrients and they learned to do this.
For water i have a method to take away and out of the water the bacteria after it fed on phosphorus but i gave it just as an example since its not interesting why i use it to clean water .

[Frog Valley Farm]

Better than a monocrop of clover is a mix of grass, weeds, legumes.  We have anywhere from 10-20 different legumes at any given time in our orchard floor.  This satisfies three of the 5 principles of soil health, plant diversity, roots in the ground and cover for the soil. Not mowing will satisfy the other two soil health principles, least disturbance and incorporating animals as the wildlife will move in the habitat.  This biodiverse living cover is the centerpiece of our soil fertility it is the habitat for the microbiology.  It is also how soil is built with living roots and is the best way to put organic matter (carbon)into the earth.  Adding compost and mulch though important as food for the microbiology is not actually soil building. Even on white sand in Florida one can build soil with proper management.  Biodiversity in your cover crop is very, very important.  Everybody should be growing cover crops and following the 5 soil health principles.  Absolutely no need for any added fertilizers if you have a healthy living biodiverse orchard floor.  I find the mix of colors leaf size and plant size all in varying phases of life very beautiful.  It is a perfect continuous slow release fertilizer that is also building the soil.

[pineislander]

Looking at the map and description maybe white clovers aren't well adapted to far southern conditions without irrigation. You may get regular white clover started in the winter if you get enough rain the seed is cheap you could treat it like an annual. You might explore other southern California adapted plants to use as covers. Some covers need time and advantage over weeds to get established and dominant. If the plants you have in the zoe now are perennial they may be hard to overcome. You need to learn your weeds to discover strategies to work around them.
https://www.earthturf.com/pages/faq

Where does Earth Turf grow?
Earth Turf grows very well throughout the middle and northern United States.  It will also grow successfully in more southern areas like Southern California, Texas, and Florida too - but will need some irrigation in the hotter/drier part of the year.

[Daintree]

If it has root nodules then you dont have to mow it in order to release the nitrogen.
The plant secretes sugar like nectar in those root nodules and bacteria starts to grow feeding on the sugar and it splits the nitrogen from the air around the nodules.

No, I looked it up, and the nitrogen is fixed until the plant dies and decomposes, or is cut or grazed.  That is why is is called nitrogen "fixing".  It is stuck there.  Here is a good article by the Univ. of Arkansas on the subject. https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-2160.pdf

[spaugh]

Looking at the map and description maybe white clovers aren't well adapted to far southern conditions without irrigation. You may get regular white clover started in the winter if you get enough rain the seed is cheap you could treat it like an annual. You might explore other southern California adapted plants to use as covers. Some covers need time and advantage over weeds to get established and dominant. If the plants you have in the zoe now are perennial they may be hard to overcome. You need to learn your weeds to discover strategies to work around them.
https://www.earthturf.com/pages/faq

Where does Earth Turf grow?
Earth Turf grows very well throughout the middle and northern United States.  It will also grow successfully in more southern areas like Southern California, Texas, and Florida too - but will need some irrigation in the hotter/drier part of the year.

Its going to get some irrigation around the tree canopy and some spots away from the trees dont get any irrigation.  Im willing to extend the sprinkler spray and water everything if I can get a cover that will smother out the weeds.  The worst weeds here are the big spiney sow thistle and wild mustard.  Ideally I would never need to weed eat or mulch again.  It would be well worth the extra water usage.

[spaugh]

If it has root nodules then you dont have to mow it in order to release the nitrogen.
The plant secretes sugar like nectar in those root nodules and bacteria starts to grow feeding on the sugar and it splits the nitrogen from the air around the nodules.

No, I looked it up, and the nitrogen is fixed until the plant dies and decomposes, or is cut or grazed.  That is why is is called nitrogen "fixing".  It is stuck there.  Here is a good article by the Univ. of Arkansas on the subject. https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-2160.pdf

Thanks, perfect article.  Seems like the nitrogen fixing may not work that well.   The strain of clover I had been leaning towards stays small and doesn't need trimming.  There are other ones that get larger and could be periodically trimmed to release the nitrogen. 

[00christian00]

I have a mix of many varieties from subterranean, to the various repens.
Subterranean dies in the summer and comes back in winter, so you get the nitrogen there.
Either way, the nitrogen is probably minimum.
As weed control it works wonder, it's keeping my wild brambles in check as they get entangled and can't come up.
Two main problem:
1-The normal version is expensive, the inoculated version is even more expensive.
Inoculated with nitrogen fixing bacteria, since it may not be present in your soil.
2-Without a sprinkler you have to hope it rain. It's not easy to establish if you don't have a sprinkler system that can cover it whole or it rain frequently until it's established.
Many of them did die to me because it didn't rain for a month when they sprouted....

You may also look at arachis pintoi. It's a lot prettier, because it's practically always in flower. and expand even quicker.
It is much less cold tolerant however. It dies as soon as it start freezing.
It should come back  however, mine is still young and it's the first year so I am not sure if it will.

[spaugh]

If it has root nodules then you dont have to mow it in order to release the nitrogen.
The plant secretes sugar like nectar in those root nodules and bacteria starts to grow feeding on the sugar and it splits the nitrogen from the air around the nodules.

No, I looked it up, and the nitrogen is fixed until the plant dies and decomposes, or is cut or grazed.  That is why is is called nitrogen "fixing".  It is stuck there.  Here is a good article by the Univ. of Arkansas on the subject. https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-2160.pdf

Thanks, good article. 

[vall]

One of the CRFG meetings a couple months ago talked about cover crops.  Unfortunately I don't see the slides online, but he said white clover is a good choice for orchards around here. I am going to try white clover myself, primarily for weed control, as soon as I get my trees trimmed and fence put up.

[SeaWalnut]

If it has root nodules then you dont have to mow it in order to release the nitrogen.
The plant secretes sugar like nectar in those root nodules and bacteria starts to grow feeding on the sugar and it splits the nitrogen from the air around the nodules.

No, I looked it up, and the nitrogen is fixed until the plant dies and decomposes, or is cut or grazed.  That is why is is called nitrogen "fixing".  It is stuck there.  Here is a good article by the Univ. of Arkansas on the subject. https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-2160.pdf

In that article it says it just estimates that 70-80% of the N fixed goes into the plant wich its logical.
Article doesnt says about the remaining 20-30% and it also says that the seeds must be inoculated with rizobia bacteria wich makes me think its a rookie article since bacteria its everywhere and the author thinks its only a certain type of bacteria that fixes N.
It wrong because all bacteria fixes N.
Off course the nitrogen fixing plants use those bacterias for themselves and not to feed otther plants,thats verry logical and in order to get the N in the soil something has to die but its not the plant that dies,its the bacteria that dies and fixes the N.

[pineislander]

If it has root nodules then you dont have to mow it in order to release the nitrogen.
The plant secretes sugar like nectar in those root nodules and bacteria starts to grow feeding on the sugar and it splits the nitrogen from the air around the nodules.

No, I looked it up, and the nitrogen is fixed until the plant dies and decomposes, or is cut or grazed.  That is why is is called nitrogen "fixing".  It is stuck there.  Here is a good article by the Univ. of Arkansas on the subject. https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-2160.pdf

In that article it says it just estimates that 70-80% of the N fixed goes into the plant wich its logical.
Article doesnt says about the remaining 20-30% and it also says that the seeds must be inoculated with rizobia bacteria wich makes me think its a rookie article since bacteria its everywhere and the author thinks its only a certain type of bacteria that fixes N.
It wrong because all bacteria fixes N.
Off course the nitrogen fixing plants use those bacterias for themselves and not to feed otther plants,thats verry logical and in order to get the N in the soil something has to die but its not the plant that dies,its the bacteria that dies and fixes the N.

There are specific bacteria which specialize in fixing nitrogen, some are specific for a certain legume and not others. Not all bacteria form associations with plant roots. For example I doubt that plant pathogenic bacteria like zanthomonas or pseudomonas fix nitrogen.
Many of these articles assume the grower is using staandard farm practices including clean cultivation and chemical usage. In soils that experience some of those practices organic matter and soil life is very low and requires innoculation to get maximum benefit.

[SeaWalnut]

I should have said all bacteria that lives in the soil fixes nitrogen .Also all algae can fix nitrogen same like bacteria because the algae are not plants.
Certain bacteria live in simbiosis with plants but i dont believe they give the plants the N for free or that it is really a simbiosis.
I believe the plants use bacteria,basically they are parasitising bacteria or farming bacteria .They fed it sugar then they kill the bacteria to use all that N the bacteria has in them.

The man that wrote that article is 50% clueless about how this happens and my half illiterate comment above with the ,,underground flowers ,,comparison would have teached him a lot.

Bacteria and algae are exactly like meat .They have in their proteins all the soo called ,,essential aminoacids,, wich cant be found in plants.
Those essential aminoacids decompose into amines when the bacteria dies wich are foul smelling substances that give the characteristic corpse smell ( cadaverine,putrescine,etc).
Further the amines decompose ammonia wich plants can use directly .Further into NO2 and then in NO3 and then nitrifying bacteria ( this ones doesnt takes the N from air)decomposes the NO3 into Nitrogen and Oxigen,both gasses that leave the soil.
So any dead bacteria its like a tiny dead animal in the soil wich plants can use as fertiliser.
Even dead nitrosomas,the nitrifying bacteria that doesnt splits the N from air its still fixing the N because when it dies it releases nitrogen just like any otther dead animal matter.
 
One thing is certain ,that splitting nitrogen requires hard work that bacteria wouldnt give it to plants for free and that the bacteria has to die in order to release the N to be available for plants.
Because the bacteria has to die i dont think of this relationship ,plant-bacteria as simbiosis ,its more like parazitism or ,,farming,, what these plants do.

[SeaWalnut]

I have a mix of many varieties from subterranean, to the various repens.
Subterranean dies in the summer and comes back in winter, so you get the nitrogen there.
Either way, the nitrogen is probably minimum.
As weed control it works wonder, it's keeping my wild brambles in check as they get entangled and can't come up.
Two main problem:
1-The normal version is expensive, the inoculated version is even more expensive.
Inoculated with nitrogen fixing bacteria, since it may not be present in your soil.
2-Without a sprinkler you have to hope it rain. It's not easy to establish if you don't have a sprinkler system that can cover it whole or it rain frequently until it's established.
Many of them did die to me because it didn't rain for a month when they sprouted....

You may also look at arachis pintoi. It's a lot prettier, because it's practically always in flower. and expand even quicker.
It is much less cold tolerant however. It dies as soon as it start freezing.
It should come back  however, mine is still young and it's the first year so I am not sure if it will.

I have the opposite experience with my clover.It grows on concrete and over compacted gravel that has a little clay soil in it .
I never water it and its verry green and luxuriant in the middle of the summer when the geass dies because of the lack of water.So i think its drought resistant.
Last summer we had 4 months witout rain and it did great,i had to mow it.

As for arachis i like the real peanuts and they are similar cold hardy with yours( there are comercial plantations in Romania) .
They make same yellow flowers but they also make peanuts.
Only turn off is that you have to dig trenches and keep the soil loose around them so that the peanuts burrow easy in the soil.
They are super drought tolerant plants.

[00christian00]

I have the opposite experience with my clover.It grows on concrete and over compacted gravel that has a little clay soil in it .
I never water it and its verry green and luxuriant in the middle of the summer when the geass dies because of the lack of water.So i think its drought resistant.
Last summer we had 4 months without rain and it did great,i had to mow it.

Mine I also drought resistant now, not sure it can stay 4 months without rain however.
When I said it needs water I was talking about planting it from seeds, until it is established with strong roots it is not drought tolerant.
I am also in zone 9, which has probably much higher temperature even in summer.
Trifolium subterranean is planted in winter so no problem, but I was told to plant Trifolium repens in spring and without rain it can be an issue.
It must be said I also have a clay soil and my tractor doesn't do a fine grain job, so the seed wasn't well planted.

As for regular peanuts, I have already many mouse digging everywhere.
Doesn't it attract even more?

[SeaWalnut]

I have the opposite experience with my clover.It grows on concrete and over compacted gravel that has a little clay soil in it .
I never water it and its verry green and luxuriant in the middle of the summer when the geass dies because of the lack of water.So i think its drought resistant.
Last summer we had 4 months without rain and it did great,i had to mow it.

Mine I also drought resistant now, not sure it can stay 4 months without rain however.
When I said it needs water I was talking about planting it from seeds, until it is established with strong roots it is not drought tolerant.
I am also in zone 9, which has probably much higher temperature even in summer.
Trifolium subterranean is planted in winter so no problem, but I was told to plant Trifolium repens in spring and without rain it can be an issue.
It must be said I also have a clay soil and my tractor doesn't do a fine grain job, so the seed wasn't well planted.

As for regular peanuts, I have already many mouse digging everywhere.
Doesn't it attract even more?

So far ,the field where i planted peanuts didnt atracted any mouse or squirrel but the peanuts i planted were without shells and they didnt really grow to make anything to harvest(possibly i had old seeds also thogh at home they germinated 50%).
Il try again this summer with peanuts.
I buy them cheap from the store as raw peanuts and i will test them better this year.