Author Topic: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb  (Read 1958 times)

Ansarac

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • Beaumont, California, US Zone 9
    • View Profile
Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« on: September 05, 2020, 01:46:46 PM »
 :o 2-3ft tall cacaos arrive perfectly intact, in the mail. but the leaves fall off, within 1-2 days of unpacking them.  On my second attempt, now.

Are they drought-deciduous, and do you believe they will come back? I understand that cauliflorous growth may come anywhere out of tender parts of the cacao plant, for so long as it stays green.

We're experiencing high heat, in southern California, right now. My other tender tropicals are mulched, under partial shade, and loving it -- except for these new cacao, right out of the box.

I also have people randomly giving me their failed nursery plants. They are apparently grown in soilless medium on a nutrient drip. I give it compost tea, and they come back from the dead. I bring this up, because some of these leaves on my cacao were larger than the tiny pot, they were shipped in. This round of (now-leafless) cacaos has been placed against a shady wall, in an aerated hydroponic situation, and still comes across as drying. 





bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2020, 01:52:07 PM »
You are in the wrong State to grow Cacao.
- Rob

Acoalwell

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • United States, West Virginia, zone 6
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2020, 02:00:26 PM »
I've been having mixed results indoors. I'm growing mine from seed. I think it's just trial and error. First, they don't like to be TOO HOT, or in a lot of sunlight. They also don't like to dry out for long, but do poorly in soil that doesn't drain. So, it's a fine balance.

Mine were doing very good and then they stopped growing. I decided it was because their soil wasn't draining well enough and they were sitting in constantly damp soil, so I transplanted to fresh soil with better drainage. Then, I forgot to water the fresh soil for about two days, and the smallest plant is doing very badly. The bigger ones seem to be a little more hardy, though. I wouldn't keep mine outdoors because I can control the heat, sun, and humidity inside better. Make one mistake, and they lose several leaves and take a week or two to grow a new one.

Not that I'm an expert of any kind, these are just my observations.

Ansarac

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • Beaumont, California, US Zone 9
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2020, 02:12:06 PM »
You are in the wrong State to grow Cacao.

I am successfully maintaining several specimens of tropical plants, in a controlled environment. I do not consider myself a large scale farmer, so much as a tinkerer.

Banana, tamarillo, Titan arum, mangosteen, tapioca, etc, are putting on lots of growth.

Avocados, Brugmansias, and rubber trees are grown in my community, outdoors, with minimal or no protections.

Make one mistake, and they lose several leaves and take a week or two to grow a new one.

Thanks, very much. I hope mine do, too.

Not that I'm an expert of any kind, these are just my observations.

My considerable time reading has usually been wasted. I mainly ran into proprietary secrets and claims, which can never be reproduced. Anyone who can keep track of his observations is an expert, imho.


Ansarac

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • Beaumont, California, US Zone 9
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2020, 02:26:49 PM »
I've been having mixed results indoors. I'm growing mine from seed.

I am possibly experiencing a problem with N balance.

At least 90% of my seeds will germinate. A root will go down, into the ground. Seeds push somewhat above the surface. Then, mold kills it, overnight. Apparently, native Coprinus mushrooms. Fungi appear to prefer carbon-containing brown waste and are deterred by high nitrogen. High N can burn the cacao.

Also, some careful, controlled fermentation appears to be vital to rooting. Organic fungicides seem to be allelopathic. Which is the best, safest fungicide is something that can be tested in many trials, except that this plant material is too costly for me to obtain, on a constant basis.

For me, the ideal situation would be tender shrubs / mother plants, under strict conservation. Then, test on scions. But, I have not gotten just one hardy cacao, yet. I guess, this is how named varieties start -- with a patient experimenter.

 

roblack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3008
    • Miami, FL 11A
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2020, 02:57:05 PM »
cacao needs high humidity and consistent warm temperatures. good luck

Ansarac

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • Beaumont, California, US Zone 9
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2020, 03:08:42 PM »
In our mild winter, I would suggest bottom heat, for purposes of germination.

In our wild summer -- on the way here -- these particular saplings have been getting steamed, inside of their plastic baggies.

I don't see any mold or mush, just yet.

The teeny pots have been pushed, downward, into tubular, plastic bags, for shipment. When I removed the bags, the leaves spread out, proudly -- almost a foot wide-- for about 12hrs.

But, there was a tiny tinge of brown or tan, in the bag. Like when grocery store lettuce is slightly too old.

(They are paper dry, right now.)

Crossing my fingers, for vigor in this hardwood.

Some soluble iron has been added to their broth. It is aerated, and the back room stinks of B vitamins.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 03:17:47 PM by Ansarac »

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2020, 03:28:36 PM »
cacao needs high humidity and consistent warm temperatures. good luck

I tried to say that in a shorter statement.  Oh well, beat to move on and let the OP's failures continue. 
- Rob

Daintree

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1209
    • Boise, Idaho - zone 6, with a zone 12 greenhouse...
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2020, 03:33:11 PM »
Well, I say there is no "wrong state to grow cacao". Just "the wrong state to grow cacao OUTDOORS".

Mine do awesome in my greenhouse.  Humidity is around 50-60%, keep the soil moist but not wet, mist or spray them daily, and I keep mine in full shade.  Our altitude is about 2,800 and we get nary a cloud all summer, so I can attest to the fact that you can totally roast young trees in a heartbeat.

For cacao, best bang for your buck, since they aren't usually grafted, is to buy seed and grow your own, in pots in a  greenhouse.

Cheers,
Carolyn

Ansarac

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • Beaumont, California, US Zone 9
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2020, 03:54:27 PM »
We have a landrace of loquats, here, which took-on darker, tougher, more-fibrous leaves, than their more-succulent counterparts, in the jungle.

Succulent Brugmansias thrive, at higher elevations than mine, when surrounded by walls, and not under an enclosed roof.

I have a greenhouse, the size of a bedroom. It exists in a microclimate, between buildings and hedges. The door(s) remain open, unless there is a danger of frost, and it does remain consistently humid, inside.

I am reading (but cannot corroborate) that cacao may lose it's leaves, 4 times a year. It is said to be deciduous, semi-deciduous, and to exist in deciduous jungle.

Curious newbies, here to learn, please take note:

(Don't show any signs of weakness.)  ::)

One failed attempt at cacao saplings resulted from placing their planter in partial shade -- out in the open. (Actually, the stem is still pliable. Though, it has lost leaves, all hope is not lost.) 

On the second attempt, some have been placed, indoors, in aerated nutrient broth.

Nothing has rotted off, nor is it dry enough to snap off.

I can report, in good faith, that cacao experiences substantial stress in shipping, though unpacked in an environment, which supports other tropical plants, comfortably.

I would be curious to hear about how deciduous cacao really is, if anyone is growing it successfully. Or, what are the limits of it's tolerance. Can someone show good work or document it, in a reproducible way?

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2020, 04:16:33 PM »
Well, I say there is no "wrong state to grow cacao". Just "the wrong state to grow cacao OUTDOORS".

Mine do awesome in my greenhouse.  Humidity is around 50-60%, keep the soil moist but not wet, mist or spray them daily, and I keep mine in full shade.  Our altitude is about 2,800 and we get nary a cloud all summer, so I can attest to the fact that you can totally roast young trees in a heartbeat.

For cacao, best bang for your buck, since they aren't usually grafted, is to buy seed and grow your own, in pots in a  greenhouse.

Cheers,
Carolyn

You have been growing to the limits in your greenhouse, which is more of a professional set-up, for years.  You have failed, struggled and have successes and failures.  You, with others such as Jay, are not the norm.

In general, 50-60% humidity is still on the low side.  If one is trying to just keep a plant alive, then so be it as I am not commenting on that.  If you are trying to grow and fruit it, then California with a makeshift greenhouse and admitting having no understanding, is destined for struggles and failure.

As stated, dont order plants to be shipped.  Much better to order seeds or a pod (will need to pay for express shipping).
- Rob

Daintree

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1209
    • Boise, Idaho - zone 6, with a zone 12 greenhouse...
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2020, 07:52:56 PM »
Woohoo! I'm glad somebody thinks I have a professional setup!
Please tell my hubby that!
Humidity is always a problem here in the high desert, since we usually have very low humidity.  There is a big difference between humidity and "wetness" in my greenhouse. Misters do ok, but what really helps is soaking the bark on the floor.

Definitely grow your own from seed, they seem to adapt much better to local conditions.
Also, my young cacao trees/seedlings never lose all their leaves unless they are dying. I will keep my fingers crossed for yours, Ansarac!

Carolyn


Acoalwell

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • United States, West Virginia, zone 6
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2020, 08:49:53 PM »
I've been having mixed results indoors. I'm growing mine from seed.

I am possibly experiencing a problem with N balance.

At least 90% of my seeds will germinate. A root will go down, into the ground. Seeds push somewhat above the surface. Then, mold kills it, overnight. Apparently, native Coprinus mushrooms. Fungi appear to prefer carbon-containing brown waste and are deterred by high nitrogen. High N can burn the cacao.

Also, some careful, controlled fermentation appears to be vital to rooting. Organic fungicides seem to be allelopathic. Which is the best, safest fungicide is something that can be tested in many trials, except that this plant material is too costly for me to obtain, on a constant basis.

For me, the ideal situation would be tender shrubs / mother plants, under strict conservation. Then, test on scions. But, I have not gotten just one hardy cacao, yet. I guess, this is how named varieties start -- with a patient experimenter.

What I usually do is germinate in wet paper towel and then transfer to a pot. Maybe you could try germinating in sterile medium like coco coir or vermiculite and then moving to soil once it has leaves, it'll be stronger. I also mix in Mycos tablets when I prepare my soil for seed sprouting. I've had great results.

Acoalwell

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • United States, West Virginia, zone 6
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2020, 08:56:10 PM »
Another tip- buy a humidifier. It's good for allergies and it's good for your plants. I have one, and I keep the humidity between 60-75 in the house, and on days where it's humid outside the indoor humidity can be 80%. It's great.

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9012
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2020, 10:05:34 PM »
They keep their leaves through the dry season and winter. They may drop some but are not deciduous. They like to set fruit through the dry season and prior in winter also as well as having ripe fruit. Just yesterday I was looking at trees of a few varieties and admiring how green and leafy they were. They do like good sunshine and humidity and 7 or 8c doesn't knoch them around at all if it gets warmer during the day.

Ansarac

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • Beaumont, California, US Zone 9
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2020, 03:18:22 PM »
I have placed lots of fresh seeds, under a solar water fountain, with arils still attached. I just could not remove the fruity pulp, without damaging the tender seed. The stale, brown, fruity water was constantly aerated and replaced, every day, as the seeds became more clean. My setup was on a metal, mesh, patio table, on a hot patio, and the water became very warm -- just short of hot.

At least one, sturdy, highly-vigorous survivor has surfaced from it's planter -- perhaps, the beginning of my own landrace.

Ansarac

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • Beaumont, California, US Zone 9
    • View Profile
Re: Cacao Newbie Usually Has a Green Thumb
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2020, 03:23:40 PM »
Then, mold kills it, overnight. Apparently, native Coprinus mushrooms.
I also mix in Mycos tablets when I prepare my soil for seed sprouting. I've had great results.

I think, your way may help prevent dampening-off.