Author Topic: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok  (Read 29342 times)

Mr. Clean

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Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« on: January 21, 2013, 05:03:30 PM »
I heard Zills is grafting Mahachanok.  Might have to get a 2nd mahachanok tree.   :D
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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 05:18:48 PM »
Last time I spoke with them they told me late this year or early part of next year.

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 05:51:36 PM »
see I told u  ;D

they had enough people request it...now they propagate it...and the price is going down...just like I said  a while back in the post about toptrops mahas.
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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 06:24:12 PM »
Yep. Then what will happen is a new cultivar will captivate the interest of the fruit tree hoarders, and zill's will then accumulate an overstock of maha charnook trees, leading to an abundance of really nice / gigantic mc trees. That's what generally happens. You can generally spot the the 'has-beens', where there is an overstock of really nice trees that were once the rage. Haven't been up there in a while, but the 'has-been' list included lemon meringue, ice cream, lancetilla, alphonso, etc. Although I think lemon meringue is seeing a resurgence.

Up until about 2 or 3 years ago, you could buy 6+ year old bearing jabos for under 40 bux on the wholesale market. Then jabo's flipped back to prime-time, prices went sky high, and wholesale stock dwindled.

If you're smart, you resist the urge to get the 'cutting edge' fruit trees, wait for the rage to pass and then buy really nice trees for cheap :-). This goes for everything though. If you stick with trailing edge cell phones, for example, you can buy them for $20 to $40 bux a pop without a contract. When the battery poops out you can purchase them for 2 or 3 bux a piece :-). Trailing edge is nice on the pocket book. Herd mentality is bad for pocket book. (I learned that when I over-paid for my home in 2005. :-)

see I told u  ;D

they had enough people request it...now they propagate it...and the price is going down...just like I said  a while back in the post about toptrops mahas.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 07:07:14 PM »
That's what generally happens. You can generally spot the the 'has-beens', where there is an overstock of really nice trees that were once the rage. Haven't been up there in a while, but the 'has-been' list included lemon meringue, ice cream, lancetilla, alphonso, etc. Although I think lemon meringue is seeing a resurgence.


I would only point out that those "has beens" were largely driven by the purchasing and marketing habits of Pine Island Nursery. They've  fallen from grace because they mostly aren't productive or desirable mangoes.

The Maha Chanok craze has been driven by Harry's yard.  :D

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 07:13:28 PM »
The Maha Chanok craze has been driven by Harry's yard.  :D

Must you keep reminding me.  I know I must have squandered a small fortune somewhere here along the line in the Maha Chanok sales derby.  Very poor planning on my part. Oh well.....maybe if I was selling them people wouldn't have believed that they were that good when I said so.  Or maybe I just squandered a small fortune. Yep.....the later sounds like the reality of it.
Harry
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USA

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 07:44:37 PM »
The problem with that argument is that, despite heavy PI marketing efforts, Zill's has never even put the Tebow on its price sheet, much less an abundance of them for sale.

I honestly think that the mango festival is what drove a lot of the 'has-beens'. There also the fact that among the fruit tree hoarder community, word of the latest/greatest fruit tree spreads like wild fire.

Having sold trees myself, I've seen this phenomenon first hand. One year, you get a thousand requests for X fruit or Y cultivar. Then 2 years later, you can't sell them to save your life.

The one little issue in life is -- there's always a fly in the ointment. There's no perfect tree, wife, car, phone, etc. That's why folks ditch their iPhone x for iPhone (x + 1) every 18 months and why folks like Tiger Woods sleep around with dozens of women when they have a super model waiting at home. New is good. Old is bad.

The other issue is that a tree which performs really well for Johnny in his X soil condition, performs mediocre for Peter in his Y soil condition. Or the cultivar that's exquisite tasting at Alex's house is washed out in Tim's house.

There are some 'classics' (eg, haden, julie) that always sell in abundance and are immune to fluctuations in buyer interest. If MC makes it to classic status, then we'll likely not see a fluctuation in interest. Otherwise, I'll walk into Zill's in 4 years and find a big pile of really gigantic 7 gallon trees for cheap (same with lemon zest :-)

That's what generally happens. You can generally spot the the 'has-beens', where there is an overstock of really nice trees that were once the rage. Haven't been up there in a while, but the 'has-been' list included lemon meringue, ice cream, lancetilla, alphonso, etc. Although I think lemon meringue is seeing a resurgence.


I would only point out that those "has beens" were largely driven by the purchasing and marketing habits of Pine Island Nursery. They've  fallen from grace because they mostly aren't productive or desirable mangoes.

The Maha Chanok craze has been driven by Harry's yard.  :D
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 12:20:47 AM »
Very interesting discussion.  Now, if only us Californians could have the same problem with "has-been" mangos that you Floridians have to deal with.  As far as we can tell, mangos still sell for a pretty penny on the left coast.

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 02:12:33 AM »
Looking back on it Fairchild did give attention to some of those initially. They were, on the other hand, promoted by PIN. Fairchild probably deserves some of the credit for popularizing the "condo mango" idea, and PIN ran with it. PIN would actually recommend Lancetilla and Ice Cream to people calling asking about container growing (my dad years ago was one such customer and wound up with both, haha)

Zill will increase/decrease production of some cultivars based on the demand from PIN....like when they stopped propagating Cushman for a while because PIN wasn't ordering it anymore.

I could be wrong but I don't think Maha will be a has-been mango. It seems to have the qualities that the work horse cultivars have....those being disease resistance and good production traits coupled with agreeable flavor. Whereas, examining the has beens:

Lancetilla - average to mediocre producer, fruit loves to split, very average flavor
Ice Cream - good luck getting it to fruit. Plenty of fungus problems
Alphonso - generally performs horribly in south Florida. Flavor, production, and disease resistance all disappoint

its no wonder these flopped. They aren't good choices for home growers, or any growers for that matter.

I think Maha fits well with mangoes like Glenn, Carrie, NDM, Cogshall, etc.... which I think we can agree aren't has beens. We shall see!


« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 02:33:17 AM by Squam256 »

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 05:00:02 AM »
Yep. Then what will happen is a new cultivar will captivate the interest of the fruit tree hoarders, and zill's will then accumulate an overstock of maha charnook trees, leading to an abundance of really nice / gigantic mc trees. That's what generally happens. You can generally spot the the 'has-beens', where there is an overstock of really nice trees that were once the rage. Haven't been up there in a while, but the 'has-been' list included lemon meringue, ice cream, lancetilla, alphonso, etc. Although I think lemon meringue is seeing a resurgence.

Up until about 2 or 3 years ago, you could buy 6+ year old bearing jabos for under 40 bux on the wholesale market. Then jabo's flipped back to prime-time, prices went sky high, and wholesale stock dwindled.

If you're smart, you resist the urge to get the 'cutting edge' fruit trees, wait for the rage to pass and then buy really nice trees for cheap :-). This goes for everything though. If you stick with trailing edge cell phones, for example, you can buy them for $20 to $40 bux a pop without a contract. When the battery poops out you can purchase them for 2 or 3 bux a piece :-). Trailing edge is nice on the pocket book. Herd mentality is bad for pocket book. (I

About trailing edge...And Android phones are more than enough internet/email for most people. You go to Uruguay or Thailand, android phones are what people use. They can't pay top tariffs for Apple iPhones. The real rich countries is where people can obsess and indulge. Lets say that Android is trailing edge, going worldwide they outsell iPhones

Here in BKK people all have Iphones though. They only play games on it or chat and for the gps they don't even know what it is. Samsung phones are also hot but then the newest models big ones to watch tv in the car or at home.

I gave my mother in law a multigrafted red mango-tree and now the aunte also wants one, i m sure the next is coming soon. They live in the countryside so i guess if they like the red mango's the whole countryside will grow them soon. People here are exactly the same with new things.

Mahachanok is not known well, i have never seen the fruits on the market but they sell the tree's everywhere in BKK. I guess nobody of the buyers has tasted them in real so far.

A grafted tree of mahachanok costs 3 us$ and one from 5 feet high costs 6 us$. I m sure they cost 10 times more in the usa.


mikesid

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 05:58:42 AM »
Where does Zill get his budwood?

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 08:44:24 AM »
Gold Nugget is another mango that PIN promotes highly as one of the 3 best late season mangoes, yet I've never seen it on a zill's price list. I don't believe their stock to be as intermixed with PIN's as you think.

Ice cream isn't that poor of a producer. I know that it's a poor producer at Harry's house, but trees I've seen in Homestead and Broward all produce reasonably well. It's an excellent tasting mango and quite a pretty tree as well. For those looking for a condo mango, it's top of the pack. It has all the qualities of a Julie, yet it's not nearly as finicky. I regularly receive fruit on my 7 gallon trees.

When it comes to mango trees, location and culture are of utmost importance, which is why a tree that Dr Richard Campbell will proclaim as desirable via the curator mango list may not perform well in Harry's yard. South Florida has a diverse range of soils, from oolitic limestone in Homestead, to muck in Davie, to deep sand in Palm Beach county.

Then there are subtle variations in climate that are very significant when it comes to fruit tree production. You have dry and breezy near the coast, which keeps antracnose at bay. Then you have pockets that receive more chill hours. A mere 30 mile difference in location means the difference between getting consistent lychee crops (palm beach county) and sparse / inconsistent lychee crops (Tamarac) due to the difference in chill hours.

Take the carrie, for example. Here in my section of Broward, the carrie is a poor bearer. However, in areas of palm beach county it's a reasonably strong bearer. Or look at the Edward, which produces poorly for pine island nursery and performs fairly well here in my area of Broward. Next, consider the brewster lychee, which bears consistently in Harry's yard (based on what he told me) yet is an ornamental that bears once every 4 years in other portions of Broward.

Lastly, you have to factor in differences in palate. I, like you, consider the taste of the Lancetilla to be sub-par. I would rate Edward at the top as one of my favorites and Lancetilla near the bottom of the list. However, a person of Latin American descent (eg, my wife) would rate the Lancetilla near the top and Edward near the bottom. There's a reason why Lancetilla was selected in Honduras and not Boynton Beach -- it's not a mango well suited to the stock 'American' palate.

Looking back on it Fairchild did give attention to some of those initially. They were, on the other hand, promoted by PIN. Fairchild probably deserves some of the credit for popularizing the "condo mango" idea, and PIN ran with it. PIN would actually recommend Lancetilla and Ice Cream to people calling asking about container growing (my dad years ago was one such customer and wound up with both, haha)

Zill will increase/decrease production of some cultivars based on the demand from PIN....like when they stopped propagating Cushman for a while because PIN wasn't ordering it anymore.

I could be wrong but I don't think Maha will be a has-been mango. It seems to have the qualities that the work horse cultivars have....those being disease resistance and good production traits coupled with agreeable flavor. Whereas, examining the has beens:

Lancetilla - average to mediocre producer, fruit loves to split, very average flavor
Ice Cream - good luck getting it to fruit. Plenty of fungus problems
Alphonso - generally performs horribly in south Florida. Flavor, production, and disease resistance all disappoint

its no wonder these flopped. They aren't good choices for home growers, or any growers for that matter.

I think Maha fits well with mangoes like Glenn, Carrie, NDM, Cogshall, etc.... which I think we can agree aren't has beens. We shall see!
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 09:25:23 AM »
hehe I still use a flip phone.

About trailing edge...And Android phones are more than enough internet/email for most people. You go to Uruguay or Thailand, android phones are what people use. They can't pay top tariffs for Apple iPhones. The real rich countries is where people can obsess and indulge. Lets say that Android is trailing edge, going worldwide they outsell iPhones
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 09:36:16 AM »
If you're smart, you resist the urge to get the 'cutting edge' fruit trees, wait for the rage to pass and then buy really nice trees for cheap :-). This goes for everything though. If you stick with trailing edge cell phones, for example, you can buy them for $20 to $40 bux a pop without a contract. When the battery poops out you can purchase them for 2 or 3 bux a piece :-). Trailing edge is nice on the pocket book. Herd mentality is bad for pocket book.

For a certain sub-group among us, who came of age when nurseries sold only Hayden, Keitt and Kent*)  I think it's okay for us to try cutting edge mangos before they have proven themselves.  If we live long enough we can pull them out and try something else.   The difference between paying $30 versus $50 for something that has gotten lots of hype isn't necessarily a huge deal if you throw in the several years before you start getting much fruit.

As far as the high tech electronics, I'll buy my iphone or ipad  when it comes with a separate keyboard and a huge monitor -- oh wait, I think those are called PCs.     Meanwhile my flip phone is surprisingly good at making and receiving calls.

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 09:44:16 AM »
You can use a smart phone to order expensive trees online!

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 10:06:37 AM »
You can use a smart phone to order expensive trees online!

Or do on the spot research when your at a nursery that has a variety you are not familiar with. 

Friday, I used my smartphone to comparison shop a washing machine, while in the store, and got a $230 price match discount by showing the competitor's price to the sales rep on my phone.
Brandon

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 10:07:06 AM »
True, Patrick. But I can also use this high-tech forum to acquire fabulous trees and fruit, at very fair prices, from other forum members.

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 10:10:03 AM »
You make an excellent point, Brandon.  Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and invest in a data plan.   

 But will a smart phone find me some of those fancy Klotek bananas I've been reading about?

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 10:28:29 AM »
Either that or do it the 'old fashioned way' and use the PC and printer before leaving home, and save more than the $230 in monthly data fees :-). I still remember back in the days or yore when we had to use 'pay phones' to make calls from road. It was such a hard life back then :-).

I have fond memories of when I got my first apartment. Back then you could get cable for $20 a month with taxes, and total monthly outlay of utilities was under $100. Now you can nary buy a month of cell phone usage for that much :-).

You make an excellent point, Brandon.  Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and invest in a data plan.   
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:30:17 AM by Cookie Monster »
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2013, 10:34:06 AM »
I wonder if  the Mahachanok will be re-named for marketing purposes...

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2013, 10:54:56 AM »
Quote
Then there are subtle variations in climate that are very significant when it comes to fruit tree production. You have dry and breezy near the coast, which keeps antracnose at bay.

I don't consider these differences that subtle....there's an enormous difference between the western communities of the tri-county area and the coast.

My comments on Ice Cream apply to it throughout much of south Fl as well as south west FL. Its a low production, disease prone tree adapted to the West Indies. Like Julie it might perform well in pockets of FL, but performing well in isolated pockets doesn't make it a tree one can generally recommend to people. Most buyers, particularly people buying mangos from garden centers (largely supplied by PIN), will not know anything about the Ice Cream beyond its intriguing name. Many will wind up disappointed due to the lack of fruit production.

I'd rather sell people a mango that is more likely to produce well and not have as much disease problems while still tasting good.

On flavor, you are right that its a subjective thing, but you can still get general ideas of what most people like and dislike when you're in this business. You mentioned Edward.....Edward has probably the highest rate of market acceptance of any of the Florida mangos. Its one of the few mangos that hardly anyone 'dislikes'. In fact I think your wife might be the first person I've ever heard of disliking Edward ;)

Lancetilla is generally held in much lower regard by most people who have tried it in comparison to other cultivars. I think if you were to poll the board among those who have tried it, you'd find a general consensus that it just isn't that good.

So again it comes down to numbers....would you rather be selling people a mango that people are more likely to like the flavor of? The average Lancetilla purchaser probably never tried it, especially not in comparison to the other cultivars available to them.

Quote
Gold Nugget is another mango that PIN promotes highly as one of the 3 best late season mangoes, yet I've never seen it on a zill's price list. I don't believe their stock to be as intermixed with PIN's as you think.

Yes, there are a few that PIN carries that Zill does not propagate...Gold Nugget being one. Golden Lippens is another. But their inventory of these cultivars is and has been rather low in comparison to the other major cultivars, going back some years. I never claimed that Zill's inventory was completely dependent on what PIN was ordering, but I  maintain it had something to do with it with these several cultivars in this instance.

Another factor to consider though is that it isn't just what PIN is buying, but also their website (which has evolved over the years). PIN's website has been maybe the most "important" source for information on mangos for most casual mango purchasers doing a little research into what mango to buy.

Quote
Either that or do it the 'old fashioned way' and use the PC and printer before leaving home, and save more than the $230 in monthly data fees :-)

I still have a "dumb phone". Don't have a data plan. Don't think I'd use it much if I had one. I don't even like to text people, though I'll use it if that's how I'm being contacted.

Quote
I wonder if  the Mahachanok will be re-named for marketing purposes...

Already has been in Asia I think....has been sold under the name "Rainbow mango", among others.

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2013, 11:41:59 AM »
On the topic of popular new varieties: 
waiting a few years to save 20 bucks on a tree, is not my style, i m not 21 anymore.  I can understand though that one should at least try the fruit first before purchasing , which brings me to the next topic.

Lancetilla, and Ice cream.
Quote
The average Lancetilla purchaser probably never tried it, especially not in comparison to the other cultivars available to them.
 

Lancetilla was the first tree I purchased based on the hype at the time this was before becoming involved with the online fruit forums.  Ice cream I did try before I got it ( a free gift )  Both trees look terrible here in my back yard.  they both are very susceptible to powdery mildew.  I just sprayed them with sulfur in hope to control this.  I am considering top working the lancetilla if it doesn't clean up with the sulfur. ( 1st time I am using the stuff ).

Topic of being on cutting edge.
I like tech that is "open" the advantage of Android, is it will have zillions of programers, creating apps, and making improvements. Apple makes good products but frankly its mostly hype and fad. at the moment at work, I am in dialog with a Chinese manufacturer, and I am designing a STB ( Set top Box ) for the Cable TV company I work at, we will build these STB with built in Android.  this will allow the more poor folks that do not have a PC get online.  also they can play games.  In Europe because of the popularity of Android they have been trying to push their own smart TV OS called HbbTV .  in any case Android is the most popular at the moment. being built into TVs, STBs, and anything you can imagine. a person with a smart phone in Miami, could race cars with someone in India using a Android dongle, or someone in Germany with a Smartv. 

maybe someone will make an App for finding rare mango trees.

Mahachanok:
I think "rainbow mango" has a nice ring to it and would be a good marketing name for them in the US also.

William
" The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.....The second best time, is now ! "

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2013, 11:51:06 AM »
Very interesting discussion.  Now, if only us Californians could have the same problem with "has-been" mangos that you Floridians have to deal with.  As far as we can tell, mangos still sell for a pretty penny on the left coast.

We are spoiled rotten here but much of this is due to the long history of mango cultivation and breeding here. Southern California has good growing conditions for mangoes. My guess is 70% as good as South Florida. But you don't have the Caribbean nations in your backyard where mangoes are grown all over and which has helped diversity

I just saying that we had people who paved the way so today Floridians have so many mango choices.
The flip side is that California dominates in avocados. You have  a long history in avocados with more breeding and experimenting and selling Hass commercially all over America. Your universities must have lots of taxpayer funded avocados breeding going on while I doubt Florida has much

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2013, 11:59:50 AM »
My comments on Ice Cream apply to it throughout much of south Fl as well as south west FL. Its a low production, disease prone tree adapted to the West Indies. Like Julie it might perform well in pockets of FL, but performing well in isolated pockets doesn't make it a tree one can generally recommend to people. Most buyers, particularly people buying mangos from garden centers (largely supplied by PIN), will not know anything about the Ice Cream beyond its intriguing name. Many will wind up disappointed due to the lack of fruit production.

There are 3 major soil types and 2 major climatic regions in southeastern Florida, and each one probably has roughly 1M people. Muck soil prone to flooding would be more of an isolated pocket, since such a small percentage of the tri-county area has it. Julie is indeed a finicky tree. But, ice cream is quite a bit more durable.

On flavor, you are right that its a subjective thing, but you can still get general ideas of what most people like and dislike when you're in this business. You mentioned Edward.....Edward has probably the highest rate of market acceptance of any of the Florida mangos. Its one of the few mangos that hardly anyone 'dislikes'. In fact I think your wife might be the first person I've ever heard of disliking Edward ;)

Lancetilla is generally held in much lower regard by most people who have tried it in comparison to other cultivars. I think if you were to poll the board among those who have tried it, you'd find a general consensus that it just isn't that good.

So again it comes down to numbers....would you rather be selling people a mango that people are more likely to like the flavor of? The average Lancetilla purchaser probably never tried it, especially not in comparison to the other cultivars available to them.

Speaking of numbers, you're completely ignoring a giant segment of the south Florida population. I know that you'd be hard pressed to find an English speaking Anglo saxon American who dislikes Edward. But, there are other Spanish speaking Hispanics here besides my wife :-). And there are also Hispanics who do shop at the garden centers. That would suck if garden centers only sold the fruit that Alex and his friends and acquaintances liked. Alex would be happy, but the other umpteen ethnic groups here would be out of luck :-(.
Jeff  :-)

Squam256

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Re: Zills is Grafting Mahachanok
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2013, 01:27:46 PM »
Quote
Speaking of numbers, you're completely ignoring a giant segment of the south Florida population. I know that you'd be hard pressed to find an English speaking Anglo saxon American who dislikes Edward. But, there are other Spanish speaking Hispanics here besides my wife :-).

That hasn't been my experience with Edward at all. The Hispanics I sell to LOVE Edward! So do the Haitians. I've even turned some Jamaican customers to it, normally very partial to their home mangos. And not for nothing but my father was hispanic and it was his favorite mango.

And I don't really identify my 'taste' as being aligned with any particular ethnic or racial group. I love a wide variety of flavors in mangoes.

Guess different strokes for different folks. Its really not worth quibbling over though.  :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 01:36:14 PM by Squam256 »

 

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