Author Topic: Unusual Flower @ my Cherimoya - 5 or 6 Petals, Really! (Read 11032 times)

behlgarden · « **on:** June 25, 2012, 04:52:10 PM »

while trying to pollinate flowers, I came across this wierd flower on my Cherimoya that had 5 petals as suppose to 3 or 4. has anyone every seen this?

Jackfruitwhisperer69 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:11:03 PM »

Hi Behlgarden,
WOW...never seen one like that before

The flower sure looks slick

Thanks for sharing

behlgarden · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:16:49 PM »

it reminded me of octopus! LOL

Jackfruitwhisperer69 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2012, 05:23:35 PM »

Quote from: behlgarden on June 25, 2012, 05:16:49 PM

it reminded me of octopus! LOL

sure does look like a little octopus

I checked the petal...Good luck with the hand pollination

Hope you get a huge load

fruitlovers · « **Reply #4 on:** June 26, 2012, 04:00:15 AM »

Never seen a cherimoya flower like that. My guess is that if you pollinate it you will get a siamese type fruit, with 2 fruits stuck together.

Mike T · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2012, 04:12:06 AM »

I have seen 2 flowers on one stalk with annona before and it maked sense if it is 2 almost perfectly fused flowers.

behlgarden · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2012, 09:14:23 AM »

I will post pictures of fruit if it sets. The flower did not appear to be fused at all it was so clean, but that might be it.

cuban007 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2012, 04:08:57 PM »

Behl that is a very unique Cherimoya flower. I will look at mine trees and see if they any flowers as yours.

behlgarden · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2012, 04:10:32 PM »

I thank Daniel and Joe for pointing me to hand pollinate my tree. Although it puts fruits itself, hand pollination seemds to be working. I saw a cluster of 8 fruits, like mangoes! LOL

FlyingFoxFruits · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2012, 06:20:29 PM »

seen weird flowers with 2 or 4, never 5 ...cool pic cherimoctopod!

cuban007 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2012, 08:28:55 PM »

Behl, keep records of your observations and track it. I am curious to see what the fruit will be like in shape and taste.

TropicalFruitHunters · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2012, 07:16:51 AM »

Not to one up you but I had a male flower this morning with 6 petals. Did not spot it in the female stage. Maybe the pollen will be doubly potent?! Very odd looking flower. So maybe the 4 or more petals are more common but just rarely noticed.

behlgarden · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2012, 09:02:46 AM »

Wow. Let's hope urs get self pollinated

TropicalFruitHunters · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2012, 09:15:42 AM »

LOL! No chance! I pulled the pollen to hit up a few innocent females on the tree! Hope it packs a punch! This will be the first time the plant has produced this many flowers so I'm trying hard to keep up with the male/female ratio and storing pollen. The plant produced fruit from the seedling portion but not the El Bumpo or Pierce grafted limbs. Lost the Honey Hart graft for some reason and it was couple years old. Lost the entire branch. The seedling fruit was actually very good but hoping for the others this time around.

fyliu · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2012, 12:55:01 PM »

ohiojay, did you know about the female stage pollen of cherimoya? I'm sure there are slides online somewhere. Basically you pick the flower in the female stage and scrape the pollen off and it lasts up to 72 hours. Male stage pollen only lasts 24 hours.

TropicalFruitHunters · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2012, 01:49:25 PM »

there is no pollen in the female stage. Female is first stage and then turns into the male flower with pollen. Been doing this for years.

behlgarden · « **Reply #16 on:** June 27, 2012, 01:52:06 PM »

I have been using make pollen to pollinate famale flowers, next day I have been collecting pollen from female that opened a bit more and using it on other femanes. I am seeing massive fruits, in some cases, clusters of two or three

TropicalFruitHunters · « **Reply #17 on:** June 27, 2012, 02:03:48 PM »

Let me clarify...I don't believe there is any female pollen that can be used to pollinate other female flowers. Either male or female here... All articles I've read have only shown taking pollen from a male flower to be used on a female flower. If the flower was transitioning from female to male, I'm not sure the pollen granules could shed or be viable??

behlgarden · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2012, 02:06:48 PM »

my understanding is that female stage turns into male stage when pollen is shed, petals wide opened. if female stage is pollinated, female stage still opens petals into next day and pollen is still shed but flower is pollinated, i.e. pregnant.

TropicalFruitHunters · « **Reply #19 on:** June 27, 2012, 02:35:10 PM »

flower sex doctors need to chime in here! You may be right...I always remove at least one petal from cherimoyas, all for sugar apples, after pollination. So I've never paid attention to these after the deed was done. So maybe I've been missing out on more pollen to collect?!

fyliu · « **Reply #20 on:** June 27, 2012, 04:07:29 PM »

Maybe it's information that just circulates within the CA cherimoya association. It does take some effort to get the pollen loose at the female stage so it's easier to just pick that flower. You can decide to sacrifice some flowers on outer or weaker branches, but that's what you have to do when all you have are female stage and you really want some fruit.

behlgarden · « **Reply #21 on:** June 27, 2012, 04:50:35 PM »

Well, pros need to answer this simple question then.

We get female stage
then it turns into male stage and we collect pollen
we use this pollen to pollinate other female stage flowers

Now, all the flowers that I have pollinated in female stage has opened up a day later and appeared as make stage and I have been able to extract pollen from previously pollinated flowers, and those flowers I believe have continued onto putting fruits as well.

So the question is, is this ok? Once you pollinate female stage flower, does the flower not advance to male stage? Is so why do I see pollen? Is that pollen colllected from pollinated female flower not viable?

Too much confusion.

behlgarden · « **Reply #22 on:** June 27, 2012, 05:00:00 PM »

also found this http://cherimoya.orconhosting.net.nz/pages/des_flower.html

It says that each flower will shed pollen, and if not pollinated in female stage the flower will not put fruit, it does not say that pollen that is shed post pollination and flower turning into male from female stage cannot be used. So, I think I am doing it right, pollinating flower in female stage, then collecting pollen from same flower for other females at the same time.

Boy, all females are in trouble in my yard, oh I meant cherimoya flower females. Watch out, here I come with a brush!

fruitlovers · « **Reply #23 on:** June 27, 2012, 06:31:18 PM »

Quote from: ohiojay on June 27, 2012, 07:16:51 AM

Not to one up you but I had a male flower this morning with 6 petals. Did not spot it in the female stage. Maybe the pollen will be doubly potent?! Very odd looking flower. So maybe the 4 or more petals are more common but just rarely noticed.

Double fruited siamese would make more sense with 6 petals, as 3x2=6. But i guess it depends on how and where the siamese is fused?

behlgarden · « **Reply #24 on:** June 27, 2012, 06:36:24 PM »

Oscar, so in my case I get one ok and one handicapped conjouned twin? 5 petals = 3 +2

fruitlovers · « **Reply #25 on:** June 27, 2012, 06:50:01 PM »

Quote from: fyliu on June 27, 2012, 12:55:01 PM

ohiojay, did you know about the female stage pollen of cherimoya? I'm sure there are slides online somewhere. Basically you pick the flower in the female stage and scrape the pollen off and it lasts up to 72 hours. Male stage pollen only lasts 24 hours.

Female pollen is an oxymoron. Pollen is equivalent of sperm in animals, so females cannot produce pollen. It's only at the male stage that the pollen is produced.

fruitlovers · « **Reply #26 on:** June 27, 2012, 06:52:13 PM »

Quote from: behlgarden on June 27, 2012, 04:50:35 PM

Well, pros need to answer this simple question then.

We get female stage
then it turns into male stage and we collect pollen
we use this pollen to pollinate other female stage flowers

Now, all the flowers that I have pollinated in female stage has opened up a day later and appeared as make stage and I have been able to extract pollen from previously pollinated flowers, and those flowers I believe have continued onto putting fruits as well.

So the question is, is this ok? Once you pollinate female stage flower, does the flower not advance to male stage? Is so why do I see pollen? Is that pollen colllected from pollinated female flower not viable?

Too much confusion.

If you are seeing pollen, then you are seeing the male stage of the flower, so it must be advancing to male stage. I would think that pollen is still viable, but i'm sure Har knows a lot more and will chime in?

behlgarden · « **Reply #27 on:** June 27, 2012, 06:54:36 PM »

I know Pollen is shed during male stage, but question is a fully pollinated female flower anthers would also shed pollen as it matures. only difference is if its not pollinated it wont take. Is the pollen collected from pollinated flower viable? that is mystery.

fruitlovers · « **Reply #28 on:** June 27, 2012, 06:58:54 PM »

Quote from: behlgarden on June 27, 2012, 06:54:36 PM

I know Pollen is shed during male stage, but question is a fully pollinated female flower anthers would also shed pollen as it matures. only difference is if its not pollinated it wont take. Is the pollen collected from pollinated flower viable? that is mystery.

I don't know. I bet Har knows. My guess would be that the pollen would still be viable.

fyliu · « **Reply #29 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:18:55 PM »

Behl, you're doing it right. Pollen from a pollinated flower is still viable.

The only reason to go through the trouble of collecting female stage pollen is if you don't find a male. Also female stage pollen lasts 3 days instead of 1. I don't know why that is, but say you have 2 females (A and B) on day 0. You take A pollen on day 0 and B pollen on day 1, B pollen will be good until day 2 while A pollen will be good until day 3.

Maybe pollen ages faster on the flower.

There was a trial conducted by a grower who discovered this if you can find the slides online.

behlgarden · « **Reply #30 on:** July 12, 2012, 04:08:21 PM »

Reporting that I found a 6 petal flower too, and another 5 petal. also happy to report that all unusual petal flowers were successfully pollinated, now turning into fruits. I am hitting about 10-15 females daily, go figure!

Tim · « **Reply #31 on:** July 12, 2012, 04:19:30 PM »

Oh slick...does it look to be a normal shaped fruit?

behlgarden · « **Reply #32 on:** July 12, 2012, 05:07:58 PM »

its too early to tell as they are half the size of a penny right now, green, I hope to fruit over 200 fruits this season. I have some single branches that has clusters of 4 to 6 fruits, leaves of this plant in some cases are well over 12 inches across, I think the organic compost, red wigglers, and all good fertilizers is making this one healthy tree.

fyliu · « **Reply #33 on:** July 12, 2012, 05:45:23 PM »

It's really hot right now. Give all your plants plenty of water.

Guanabanus · « **Reply #34 on:** July 12, 2012, 08:47:23 PM »

People who remove flowers to collect pollen from the next day, do so because they have other plans for the evening, or because they don't have permission to work overtime, or because they can't stand mosquitoes, or because they are afraid of the dark, or ....

I gather pollen when it is shed naturally and use it immediately. If it is dark out, I wear a hiker's headlamp.

Female flower parts that are "pregnant" because they have been pollinated are not able to suppress the male parts from going ahead and being male, as they always do. The female parts are normally no longer receptive by the time the male parts in the same flower are ready to do their thing, so there would be no point to impeding the shedding of pollen.

The only time one needs to avoid using pollen from an already pollinated flower is when one is doing planned hybridization and therefore needs to be sure of knowing who the daddy is. So one avoids having any of the previous night's pollen mixed in with the fresh pollen one is using to breed with.

If one is only interesting in achieving fruit set, without a care about the seeds, then certainly, go ahead and use pollen from previously pollinated flowers!

Guanabanus · « **Reply #35 on:** July 12, 2012, 08:49:44 PM »

I have seen four-petaled cherimoya and ilama flowers, but I don't recall fivers. I have seen Mountain-Soursop with over a dozen tightly cupped inner petals, instead of the normal three.

Jack, Nipomo · « **Reply #36 on:** July 12, 2012, 08:51:47 PM »

I suspect that most of us, like me, simply collect the anthers in the male stage. The anthers of course contain the pollen. I just apply the loose anthers and pollen to the female stage. Could it be possible that these anthers at the top of the flower cone could be scraped off when the flower is in the female stage and ripen pollen in a few hours and therefore add another opportunity for pollen collection? There is that stage in the flower when it appears that the anthers are ready to shed, but don't. Waiting a few hours they become loose and ready to collect. This would require destruction of the flower, but perhaps extend the time period where pollen (anthers) could be collected. In our climate I can collect pollen (anthers) and pollinate females at the same time.

fyliu · « **Reply #37 on:** July 12, 2012, 09:52:59 PM »

Quote from: Jack, Nipomo on July 12, 2012, 08:51:47 PM

I suspect that most of us, like me, simply collect the anthers in the male stage. The anthers of course contain the pollen. I just apply the loose anthers and pollen to the female stage. Could it be possible that these anthers at the top of the flower cone could be scraped off when the flower is in the female stage and ripen pollen in a few hours and therefore add another opportunity for pollen collection? There is that stage in the flower when it appears that the anthers are ready to shed, but don't. Waiting a few hours they become loose and ready to collect. This would require destruction of the flower, but perhaps extend the time period where pollen (anthers) could be collected. In our climate I can collect pollen (anthers) and pollinate females at the same time.

That's what was tested to work for commercial growers in California and Australia. It's called female stage pollen. The reason to use it is to extend the fruiting season. At both ends of the season the flowers are fewer, making "normal" manual pollination more difficult to achieve.

But one detail I'm not clear about is when the pollen become effective. Can a flower self-pollinate if there's only one around? A side effect that was discovered is that female stage pollen remain viable longer than pollen properly matured.

I'm not sure if I said it clearly this time, since there were confusion earlier on about this idea. Maybe I should have put it in a new thread.

Jack, Nipomo · « **Reply #38 on:** July 12, 2012, 10:23:44 PM »

I got what you were saying. It is also a means to extend the season in Spain with commercial growers. With sufficient pollen workers can spend the day pollinating female flowers and enhance the crop. Apparently early recovered female stage pollen (not female pollen, is still viable and will do its deed as it is supposed to do. Also, such recovered female stage pollen can be kept at -80 C or colder and still retain over 50% viability for months. Apparently the 300 or so carpels in a cherimoya only require about 10% pollination to create a commercial fruit. The anthers collected in the female stage flower will continue to ripen enabling more pollen availability during times when the males are not shedding. Female receptive flowers can therefore be pollinated, enhancing the crop quantity. Worth a try!

Guanabanus · « **Reply #39 on:** July 13, 2012, 10:25:11 PM »

Someone once gave me a film jar in which anthers had been collected, shaken, dumped out, and the remaining pollen grains, stuck to the sides, with a few flakes of calcium chloride desiccant added, refrigerated. I used the pollen after a week, and it was viable. I did not have occasion to repeat the procedure.

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Author Topic: Unusual Flower @ my Cherimoya - 5 or 6 Petals, Really! (Read 11032 times)