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Author Topic: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins - Effects of Lemon Interstock on Mandarins  (Read 1731 times)

behlgarden

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Folks, new to this citrus forum. Have question for the pros.

What is the best rootstock for grafting mandarins? I can pick a grafted mandarin tree from Home Depot OR I can get a much healthier lemon/lime tree. Idea is to get decent growth out of mandarins. I want to do cocktail.

Any comments or recommendations?  What happens to flavor and production of mandarins if grafted onto lemon interstock!

Thanks
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 04:26:40 PM by behlgarden »

fyliu

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2018, 02:34:33 PM »
I get the feeling the lemon and mandarin might be on the same rootstock. Kumquat might be on something different.

I know that some rootstocks can make citrus sweeter or jucier. I don't know what they are or if they're still good to use. Some good rootstocks of the past stopped being used because of susceptibility to new diseases.

Millet

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2018, 06:15:04 PM »
behlgarden, your question cannot be answered until it is known what soil type the tree will be planted in (loam, sandy loam, sandy, heavy soil, good drainage, poor drainage,  salinity (chlorides), calcareous soils, wet soils, disease). Rootstocks are chosen that will adapt to the soil type where it is to be planted. Also, one needs to insure that the rootstock is compatible with the scion that will be grafted onto it..
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 08:37:57 PM by Millet »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 12:57:21 AM »
Usually rootstocks are chosen for two primary reasons, that they are vigorous growing, and that they will have a dwarfing effect. The dwarfing effect induces trees to begin fruit production much earlier in their lives than they would otherwise. This isn't only true for citrus, it's true for all sorts of other fruit tree varieties as well.

Trifoliate or Troyer citrange are the most common standard rootstocks for mandarins.


Millet

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 12:54:41 PM »
What SoCal2Warm writes is true, however you still need to be careful of the planting location. Trifoliate is well adapted to loam, sandy loam, and clay soils. It can also perform well on sandy soils, but only if irrigation is managed very carefully, because the roots are shallow and therefore trees on Trifoliate are very susceptible to drought.  Trifoliate does poorly on salinity and calcareous soils (higher pH).  Most mandarins perform well on Trifoliate for at least 10  to 15 years but eventually develop bud union crease and then the tree declines.  Much is the same with Troyer and its sister rootstock Carrizo (both Troyer and Carrizo originated from a single hybrid seedling of Washington navel orange x Trifoliate Orange). Troyer and Carrizo citranges adapt well to loam, sandy loam and sandy soil.  Performs poorly on very heavy soils with poor drainage.  Both also do poorly to salinity (chloride) and to high calcareous soils (poor higher than about 7.8 pH), but better than most Trifoliate hybrids. Compatibility with mandarins is complex and not well understood. Nearly all mandarins perform well for at least anywhere from 10 to 15 years, but many eventually develop bud union crease and decline.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 01:14:55 PM by Millet »

behlgarden

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 01:37:08 PM »
thanks guys for the info. I pulled the trigger on purchasing an awesome 6 feet tall with 15 branches pink eureka lemon in 5 gal (they could have upsized it to 15 gal), and grafted on it. Although I know this grafted pink eureka lemon is not very cold hardy its been surviving just fine in UCR that gets colder than my area and soil conditions are about the same. Hoping the grafts of mandarins do well.

Millet

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 02:56:46 PM »
behlgarden, congratulations on your pink variegated lemon. The variegated pink lemon is a selection of the Eureka lemon.  A mandarin grafted upon a lemon would produce a less sweet poorer quality fruit than it would be if grafted on either Trifoliate or Troyer.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 10:00:00 PM by Millet »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 03:18:12 PM »
Yuzu used to be commonly used as a rootstock in Japan. In many respects it's probably similar to C. aurantium (marmalade orange) but with more of a dwarfing effect.

behlgarden

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2018, 03:23:21 PM »
Yuzu used to be commonly used as a rootstock in Japan. In many respects it's probably similar to C. aurantium (marmalade orange) but with more of a dwarfing effect.

so do you think my assuming that Yuzu/Pink Eureka Lemon might be a good rootstock would work?  Again, that pink eureka lemon was grafted by Nursery on some other rootstock. now my mandarins are grafted on Eureka Lemon trunk and branches, a whole lot of mixing going on here.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2018, 03:38:54 PM »
so do you think my assuming that Yuzu/Pink Eureka Lemon might be a good rootstock would work?
I wouldn't necessarily make that jump. Lemons show different rootstock compatibility than mandarins and oranges.

Look, pretty much any citrus scion on any citrus rootstock will "work" but the compatibility will not be as good, and the scion may not be as vigorous, resilient, or productive.

I do recall reading that C. ichangensis seems to be closer genetically related to Citron than to other citrus. Genetically, Yuzu is about half C. ichangensis, while lemons are half descended from Citron. So on this basis one would think they might be compatible.

(quick note here, close genetic relation does not translate into similar cold hardiness here. C. ichangensis is one of the most cold tolerant citrus species there is, while Citron is more vulnerable to cold than common citrus varieties)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 03:50:25 PM by SoCal2warm »

behlgarden

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2018, 04:22:16 PM »
I see lemon orange mandarin cocktails all the time and producing well. only time will tell what I am onto.

Millet

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2018, 04:50:32 PM »
SoCal2Warm  wrote..... "Yuzu used to be commonly used as a rootstock in Japan"

It is interesting at this point in the discussion that Yuzu was brought up as a Japanese rootstock  The reason that Yuzu is no longer used much in Japan is because it has been replaced by Trifoliate which is now the number 1 root stock in that country. Yuzu' has been used in Japan for centuries and was their principal stock prior to the acceptance of trifoliate. Trees on trifoliate are more precocious in bearing and initially grow more rapidly than trees on 'Yuzu'. However, in Japan trees on trifoliate stock sometimes begin to decline after 10 to 20 years, (as was stated above) and it is the practice to inarch these trees with 'Yuzu' as soon as growth seems to be retarded. The declining trees recover and become long-lived and productive.  Interesting relationship between the two rootstocks. Thank you SoCal2Warm for the Yuzu comment.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2018, 07:14:52 PM »
I believe trifoliate was introduced to the West from Japan, although it originated from China.

behlgarden

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2018, 07:48:27 PM »
So essentially my mandarin grafts are on inter stock pf pinl eureka lemon which is on some kind of other rootstock. Now what would interstock do to mandarin

Millet

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2018, 09:58:53 PM »
behlgarden, see my post above.

behlgarden

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2018, 02:47:02 PM »
here is my new creation



Samodelkin

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2018, 03:28:15 PM »
I have a tree garden on the basis of the lunario lemon and sun-Bianca. Lemon as an intermediate in the tree causes increased juiciness of Mandarin fruits and slightly thickened rind, the color of the rind will be less pronounced. Influence on sugar accumulation or increase in acidity is not found

behlgarden

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2018, 03:56:40 PM »
thanks for the info. I will keep an eye on it.  I had a GN on tango interstock and those turned out to be heavenly, although growth was tipid.

Millet

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2018, 04:02:56 PM »
Samodelkin, thanks for your post.  As mentioned above the sugar content of fruit grafted on lemon is quite reduces.

CA Hockey

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2018, 11:01:28 PM »
Iím in the same boat.

I grafted mandarin into mandarin, but grafted oranges, limes, and lemons onto eureka and meyer lemon. Hopefully they do well, but if this isnít recommended then Iíll have to let rootstock send up shoots and thicken then regraft.

update:

so, last Wednesday and thursday, I went citrus graft crazy and did 64 grafts in about 6 hours (31 cultivars x 2 each plus one double). After a 3 hour session on Wednesday night, I wasn't really up for more... but Behl kindly let me borrow some buddy tape, and I was eager to try my hand with this new acquisition while honing my self-taught grafting skills.

hopefully the meyer lemon interstock lets a little more sugar and flavor through than the standard lemon interstock. I have a few straight rootstock and some more budwood that I'm holding onto for future grafting.

anyone know of any known incompatibility issues?

I did:

1) sweet/valencia orange on meyer lemon interstock
    pineapple sweet orange
    ackay sekeri sweet orange
    Trovita sweet orange
     Midknight valencia

2) Mandarin on meyer lemon interstock
    Fallglo mandarin
    sunburst mandarin
    algerian clementine
    usda 88-3 mandarin
     kinnow mandarin

3) Lime on meyer lemon interstock
    Castelo lime
    Giant key lime
    Persian lime x 2

4) on straight rootstock, no interstock
    Temple tangor
    temple x minneola tangor
    Dweet tangor
    Ortanique tangor

5) Mandarins on kishu mandarin interstock (yes, I grafted seedless kishu onto another kishu... because I wasn't sure if the interstock was also seedless)
    Fairchild mandarin
    Encore mandarin
    USDA 6-15-150 mandarin
    Seedless kishu mandarin

6) Lemon on Eureka lemon interstock
    Limonero messina lemon
    Femminello siracusano 2kr lemon
    Limonero fino 95 lemon
    limonero fino 49 lemon

7) Blood orange on Eureka interstock
    Sanguinelli blood orange
    Tarocco #7  blood orange
    Bream tarocco blood orange


8) random on Eureka lemon interstock
    australian red pulp finger lime
    nippon orangequat
    valentine pummelo hybrid
    buddha hand citron

« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 01:49:25 AM by CA Hockey »

Millet

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2018, 03:26:40 PM »
 don't  know about comparability, but all those sweet citrus varieties on Eureka lemon, will not produce very sweet fruit.

behlgarden

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 03:53:01 PM »
bigger question now is what happens to mandarin wood that takes on lemon interstock, when harvested that wood and grafted back on mandarin will that wood have lemon traits OR will it be pure mandarin? I have not seen this happen in any other varieties of fruit, but first time hearing that this happens in Citrus. wow!

Samodelkin

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2018, 03:53:38 PM »
The intermediate insert lemon has no effect on the quality of the fruit. For example orange on interstok the lemon will remain the same as on sweet orange rootstock

Samodelkin

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2018, 04:00:34 PM »
I have interstok lemon for the orange. This does not affect oranges grafted on lemon

behlgarden

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2018, 04:02:53 PM »
Great to hear. I along with some others were shaking our heads in disbelief that we just wasted our precious rootstocks and wood by grafting mandarin on lemon interstock.

are others here that have done same? grafted orange or mandarin on lemon branches and gotten sour or not so sweet mandarins/oranges?

CA Hockey

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2018, 04:04:44 PM »
I appreciate the information and discussion.

After putting in those many hours, I was  feeling rash considering going out and getting different rootstock and doing it all over again.

Having read some of the posts though, I'm inclined to hold off and see what happens. Appreciate any and all advice and perspectives.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 04:18:21 PM by CA Hockey »

Samodelkin

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Re: Perfect Rootstock for Mandarins
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2018, 04:06:35 PM »
Interstock of red orange, tarokko for example has a positive effect on the color of red varieties of citrus fruits

Millet

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« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 04:57:30 PM by Millet »

behlgarden

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This link might answer the question.

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1968-vol-81/90-94%20(GARDNER).pdf


Thanks. I have a giant Gold Nugget coming soon, will do multi graft mandarins on it when it arrives. the ones already done on Pink Eureka will be used for testing I guess. If anything, I believe Kishu that is too sweet may pickup some acidity :)

behlgarden

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I spoke to Rock at UCR Collection center. He said that rootstock can have impact but its not always bad impact, it could be other way too. he recommended using mandarin interstock to avoid speculation if you want to maintain mandarin taste, while lemons on lemon interstock.

it means now kishu will have some complexity of pink eureka! that would be wonderful

behlgarden

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I finally grafted
Sumo Shiranui Mandarin, Kishu, Frost Owari Satsuma, Okitsu Wase Satsuma, Kinnow mansarin, Xie Shan Satsuma, Australian Red Finger Lime, Pixie. I did budgraft and cleft on each of these varieties. I want to see how both do and will post compared results here.

how do most your folks graft? bud graft OR scion on branch?

fyliu

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I still like to do bud grafts to spread out all the buds. Oh the other hand, one of my shiranui stick grafts with 2 buds on it last year grew fast and made a fruit at the end of 2 ft of growth. It is starting to turn orange and is huge compared to the Page mandarins from the rootstock.

I can't remember all I have this year but there's Xie Shan, Buddha hand, Vanaiglia S__ acidless orange, pineapple.
Last year was shiranui, pixie, ponkan.

behlgarden

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Have you done multiple varieties of bud grafts on single tree? how did you force the growth? Intent is to make cocktail tree.

Millet

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I do only bud grafts.

behlgarden

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I do only bud grafts.

so have do done any bud graft cocktail or multiple varieties on single plant? how do you force them to grow?

fyliu

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There are several ways to force them:
1. cut the branch above the bud
2. bend the apical growth above the graft to below the bud, cutting it a little may be necessary to bend. Secure it in that position
3. tip the plant so that the apical growth is lower than the bud. Basically turn the pot sideways
4. score the branch a little ways above the graft so that the growth inhibiting hormone from the apical growth won't suppress the bud from growing. I haven't had success with this so next time I'll cut deeper and wider, maybe in an arc above the bud.

behlgarden

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Here is my creation. Let's see what happens now. I will need pros help in forcing buds to grow after they heal.




CA Hockey

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Iíve tried cutting the branch and scoring.

Iíd say cutting the branch works fastest . Scoring works slowest but still works (thatís what I did on my cocktail).  it may take a few seasons of pruning to direct the bud growth out of the shadow of the inter stock branch. My ma N problem is vigor of some branches like shiranui which grow very quickly and some of the other mandarins on ththe cocktail which donít grow as fast. In pruning back the shiranui, it has created a more robust fuller branch while the minimally pruned ones donít quite balance yet

Millet

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Maintaining the growth balance in a cocktail tree is the main problem with them.

behlgarden

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Maintaining the growth balance in a cocktail tree is the main problem with them.

Agreed. in CA most grow vigorously, so it is essential to keep in check and if majority on cocktail is vigorous, you remove the non vigorous. try pairing same growth habit ones together.

 

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