Author Topic: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid  (Read 36774 times)

murahilin

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2012, 04:06:29 PM »
Actually looking at my notes, the one that nurseries most carry, is not M cauliflora, its M. jaboticaba.

The two are almost indistinguishable to the untrained eye (and even to a trained eye!)

M. jaboticaba fruits are always sweet, never acid (where cauliflora has acid varieties like Ponhema)
Also caulifora is generally a shorter tree, with slightly larger leaf and fruit.

Good luck telling the difference!  Chances are, it's M. jaboticaba, sabarah...Hate to break it to you all, but the trees you have from PIN, Hopkins, and most other nurseries in USA, are mislabeled as M. cauliflora. ;D :'( ;D

I'm sure I'll catch heat for saying this, but you can suck my "assu paulista" pulp. ;) ;D :-X :P

That is very interesting. Pretty much every nursery has it listed as M. cauliflora. When do you think the original mislabeling happened?

Even Morton has the sabara listed as a M. cauliflora species.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 04:08:12 PM by murahilin »

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2012, 04:14:07 PM »
Actually looking at my notes, the one that nurseries most carry, is not M cauliflora, its M. jaboticaba.

The two are almost indistinguishable to the untrained eye (and even to a trained eye!)

M. jaboticaba fruits are always sweet, never acid (where cauliflora has acid varieties like Ponhema)
Also caulifora is generally a shorter tree, with slightly larger leaf and fruit.

Good luck telling the difference!  Chances are, it's M. jaboticaba, sabarah...Hate to break it to you all, but the trees you have from PIN, Hopkins, and most other nurseries in USA, are mislabeled as M. cauliflora. ;D :'( ;D

I'm sure I'll catch heat for saying this, but you can suck my "assu paulista" pulp. ;) ;D :-X :P

That is very interesting. Pretty much every nursery has it listed as M. cauliflora. When do you think the original mislabeling happened?

Harri Lorenzi's book, which I'm sure Oscar has sold quite a few of (God Bless USA, and Brazil), is the key for Americans (and the rest of jaboticaba minded Earthlings) to understanding the varieties, species and incongruities thereof.

I don't think its a big deal that they are mislabeled...there is only one variety that nurseries commonly sell after all.  So what's the big deal if it has a different name, that you never knew or acknowledged any way.   Blah-bla-ti-ca-ba, or chu-pi-ca-ba-ra works for me.
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2012, 08:06:32 PM »
What is in your notes that you are basing your conclusion on? 

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2012, 09:00:44 PM »
What is in your notes that you are basing your conclusion on?

One day I was just writing in my diary, and came up with some good notes about jaboticaba.  I figured it was a good time to share them with the rest of the world!

Hope you enjoy!

PS I read Lorenzi's book, that I mentioned about 1 or 2 posts ago.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 09:06:07 PM by ASaffron »
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2012, 09:34:27 PM »
I admire your enthusiasm for the jaboticaba relatives and your compendium of notes on the various species seems well written.

My area of curiosity regards how you reached your conclusion that nearly every nursery in Florida is selling Myrciaria jaboticaba as opposed to M. cauliflora.  While I do not discount the possibility that all these nurseries, Mr. Whitman, Dr. Campbell and countless other collectors and collections could have made the potential mis-identification, I am left wondering what you based your conclusion on as you appear to state it as with certainty that so many have mis-identified it?  I should note that I further do not discount the possibility that there could be an error in Lorenzi's book, for as Oscar has noted previously, such large works often have an error or two.

On the other hand, I do think that it is a big deal if they are mis-labeled, and if so, it should be brought to their attention.  Just as many people have mentioned receiving mango cultivars that turn out not to be what they were sold, this too should be corrected, especially since it will be many years before most people get fruit, and possibly be disappointed.  Since a nursery is only as good as its reputation, I would expect them to do their due diligence and note the correct botanical name.

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2012, 10:27:48 PM »
Most of the species of Myrciaria that Adam mentions have only been very recently introduced outside of Brazil. Most folks (myself included) didn't even know any of them existed BL book (before Lorenzi book), now we are entering AL period (after Lorenzi) age. There are even many more species not mentioned in Lorenzi's Brazil Fruits book, but added later by Lorenzi in Vol. 3 of Brazilian Trees book. The diversity of jaboticaba-like fruits in Brazil is overwhelming. There are also many different cultivars within each species in different regions adapted to their different local climates. What we are currently growing in USA is only a tiny drop in the bucket of the jaboticaba universe.
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2012, 11:32:16 PM »
I agree 100% with Oscar.  Every now and then, they come up with a new variety of jabucticaba in Brasil.  I am currently growing a variety from Northeast Brasil that we call it "Cambuca".  This fruit is called "Cambuca" in the Northeast.  However, the word cambuca is also used in other parts of the country to describe the yellow fruit (plinia edulis).  I have discussed this fruit with Adam and he thinks that the fruit is M. Spiritosantensis...Espirito Santo is in the Southeast of Brasil....and my cambuca which I call "Cambuca do Norte or Cambuca do Nordeste" comes from the Mata Atlantica in the Northeast of Brasil.  So many jabuticabas all over Brasil...The University of Vicosa (cedille under the letter "C") in the state of Minas Gerais has a fantastic collection of jabuticabas.

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2012, 11:46:46 PM »
There is a similar situation with eugenias BL and AL. In USA we mostly know surinam cherry, cherry of rio grande, and brazilian cherry (grumichama). But there are over 200 species of eugenias! I think many of these could be lots better than surinam cherry, and some may be as good or better than brazilian cherry.
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2012, 12:05:30 AM »
Hey Adam, I'm actually glad you think its Sabara.  I've read they are supposed to be good eating and can produce year round.  I was thinking its either Sabara or Paulista as they are supposed to be very common.  I live in San Diego, CA with a climate similar to Southern Florida but with a lot less humidity.  I'm looking for a variety that has large fruit that tastes good with little or no astringency.  I don't have a large yard so I want to be very careful when selecting my varieties.  I'm highly motivated to find these two varieties that you recommend. 

Besides my PIN Jaboticaba, I also have two seedlings of a hybrid Jaboticaba I planted from seeds that I ordered from fruitlovers.com.  It's supposed to be a cross of M cauliflora x aureana and is supposed to fruit from seeds in several years but I'll see about that. 
Simon

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2012, 04:09:35 AM »
no pruning tips for me?  :(
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2012, 07:31:08 AM »
no pruning tips for me?  :(

I am sure someone will pipe up with some tips.  I, for one, have never found the need to prune my jaboticbas.  They grow so slow and take forever to get any size.

Harry
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2012, 11:55:36 AM »
Simon

San Diego is nothing like South Florida. San Diego has a very mild climate. Miami is a hop skip & a jump from the tropic of cancer.


JF

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2012, 09:37:54 PM »
Hey JF, I feel that SD has similar weather aside from the humidity because we can grow similar crops here in SD and in S Florida such as oranges, avocados, lychees and Longan. Here in San diego, we are just miles from Mexico. Although S Florida can be very different than SD, depending on what exactly you are comparing, it is my belief that SD is one of the few counties that can grow similar sub tropicals as S Florida. Besides SD, there are only a few areas in California, Arizona, and Texas that I know of.
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2012, 11:33:04 PM »
Hey JF, I feel that SD has similar weather aside from the humidity because we can grow similar crops here in SD and in S Florida such as oranges, avocados, lychees and Longan. Here in San diego, we are just miles from Mexico. Although S Florida can be very different than SD, depending on what exactly you are comparing, it is my belief that SD is one of the few counties that can grow similar sub tropicals as S Florida. Besides SD, there are only a few areas in California, Arizona, and Texas that I know of.
Simon

Trust me Simon, I was born and raised in Miami FL and at 18 years of age the Marines brought me to North San Diego County where I resided for almost 4 years, There is a HUGE difference in climate between SD and Miami FL. South Florida is just stone throwing distance from the Tropic of Cancer we are NOT. Here is the difference from our zone 10B in my home in La Habra, which is a warmer climate than SD, to Harry's 10B...HUGE differences, never mind the humidity, look at the night temps.
monthly average for La Habra
http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/vacationplanner/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/90631
monthly average for Miami
http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/vacationplanner/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USFL0316

sure we can grow some of the thing that South Florida can but with HUGE sacrifices.

JF
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 11:35:39 PM by JF »

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2012, 01:24:48 AM »
JF is right. I lived in SD for 10+ years. San Diego, even the milder coastal sections, experience consistent temperatures in the 50's during the winter, sometimes in upper 40's. Also they have what is called June gloom, with a lot of coastal fog rolling in and keeping temperatures cool and skies overcast. Florida gets occasional arctic blasts, but they last only for few hours. SD has consistently much colder average soil temperatures as a result. I once compared temperatures at my present location in Hawaii with temperatures in Homestead, Florida, and surprisingly Homestead had consistently higher average temperatures both at night and during the day than we do throughout the whole year!
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2012, 01:43:26 AM »
JF and Oscar, I agree with both of you.  Miami Florida is much warmer than San Diego and can can be warmer than Hawaii.  I believe I heard some of the Hawaiian islands can even get snow but I could be mistaken.  Adam, sorry to derail your thread. 
Simon

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 01:52:42 AM »
JF and Oscar, I agree with both of you.  Miami Florida is much warmer than San Diego and can can be warmer than Hawaii.  I believe I heard some of the Hawaiian islands can even get snow but I could be mistaken.  Adam, sorry to derail your thread. 
Simon

It's only the peaks of the volcanoes here that get snow. Both Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa volcano peaks on this island are almost 14,000 feet elevation. So as you might imagine there are lots of different climates here depending on elevation location. The comparison i made though is for sea level temperatures here compared to Homesteas, which i think is 10 feet above sea level only!
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 06:44:23 AM »
Another derail...

There is a similar situation with eugenias BL and AL. In USA we mostly know surinam cherry, cherry of rio grande, and brazilian cherry (grumichama). But there are over 200 species of eugenias! I think many of these could be lots better than surinam cherry, and some may be as good or better than brazilian cherry.
Oscar

Here in Uganda Eugenia uniflora is very common and all other eugenia species unknown (even the indigenous), and it is solely used as a hedge; the beautiful foliage and drought resistance is considered more important than the fruit(taste). Most of the other eugenia species are less drought resistant, and I therefore don't believe they will be grown here.
Søren
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2012, 10:19:56 AM »
no pruning tips for me?  :(

I am sure someone will pipe up with some tips.  I, for one, have never found the need to prune my jaboticbas.  They grow so slow and take forever to get any size.

Harry

Thanks for your input Harry - i think i'll be leaving mine alone for the time being.  :)  There's a lot of new leaves but my trees are nowhere near as dense as pics i've seen so i'll give them a little bit more time - after all, there's certainly no risk of the inner branches not getting enough sun at the moment.  :D
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2012, 02:26:41 PM »
Another derail...

There is a similar situation with eugenias BL and AL. In USA we mostly know surinam cherry, cherry of rio grande, and brazilian cherry (grumichama). But there are over 200 species of eugenias! I think many of these could be lots better than surinam cherry, and some may be as good or better than brazilian cherry.
Oscar

Here in Uganda Eugenia uniflora is very common and all other eugenia species unknown (even the indigenous), and it is solely used as a hedge; the beautiful foliage and drought resistance is considered more important than the fruit(taste). Most of the other eugenia species are less drought resistant, and I therefore don't believe they will be grown here.

I think you're wrong about surinam cherry being the most drought tolerant and only eugenia that is drought tolerant. There are species of eugenias that originate in the Brazilian cerrado, where they have very long dry spells. Remember this is a very large genus. I don't really know why the surinam cherry became the most popular from this huge collection of plants.
Oscar
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #45 on: February 29, 2012, 01:43:58 AM »
Another derail...

There is a similar situation with eugenias BL and AL. In USA we mostly know surinam cherry, cherry of rio grande, and brazilian cherry (grumichama). But there are over 200 species of eugenias! I think many of these could be lots better than surinam cherry, and some may be as good or better than brazilian cherry.
Oscar

Here in Uganda Eugenia uniflora is very common and all other eugenia species unknown (even the indigenous), and it is solely used as a hedge; the beautiful foliage and drought resistance is considered more important than the fruit(taste). Most of the other eugenia species are less drought resistant, and I therefore don't believe they will be grown here.

I think you're wrong about surinam cherry being the most drought tolerant and only eugenia that is drought tolerant. There are species of eugenias that originate in the Brazilian cerrado, where they have very long dry spells. Remember this is a very large genus. I don't really know why the surinam cherry became the most popular from this huge collection of plants.
Oscar

Oscar, you misquoted me - I wrote "most of the other eugenia species are less drought resistant" - I have two species; E. dysenterica and E. pitanga which are more drought resistant then E. uniflora (and I seem to remember both being from the Cerrado ecosystem). And I agree, there could be many of the lesser cultivated species which likewise are drought resistant, but not the ones I grow or are aware of.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 04:44:03 AM by Jegindo »
Søren
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #46 on: February 29, 2012, 01:53:33 AM »
Another derail...

There is a similar situation with eugenias BL and AL. In USA we mostly know surinam cherry, cherry of rio grande, and brazilian cherry (grumichama). But there are over 200 species of eugenias! I think many of these could be lots better than surinam cherry, and some may be as good or better than brazilian cherry.
Oscar

Here in Uganda Eugenia uniflora is very common and all other eugenia species unknown (even the indigenous), and it is solely used as a hedge; the beautiful foliage and drought resistance is considered more important than the fruit(taste). Most of the other eugenia species are less drought resistant, and I therefore don't believe they will be grown here.

I think you're wrong about surinam cherry being the most drought tolerant and only eugenia that is drought tolerant. There are species of eugenias that originate in the Brazilian cerrado, where they have very long dry spells. Remember this is a very large genus. I don't really know why the surinam cherry became the most popular from this huge collection of plants.
Oscar

Oscar, you misquoted me - I wrote "most of the other eugenia species are less drought resistant" - I have two species; E. dysenterica and E. pitanga which are more drought resistant then E. uniflora. And I agree, there could be many of the lesser cultivated species which likewise are drought resistant, but not the ones I grow or are aware of.

I think Oscar was just excited about all of the other Eugenias to grow, other than that Gawd Awful surinam cherry.  :P

I can see why he'd rattle off some names of superior fruited and more drought tolerant species of Eugenia.  Being that he probably is just now fruiting some of these and people are just waking up!

I think the surinam is so wide spread because of its widespread range in Brazil, and it's early fruition, and ability to adapt to Tropical and Sub tropical portions of the globe.

Hope the scenery and fruitscape changes over there by u!  its nasty by us!  I have lots of work to do!  But I won't be deterred because I carry death in my pouch, I cannot be harmed.
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Soren

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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #47 on: February 29, 2012, 04:47:59 AM »
I think the surinam is so wide spread because of its widespread range in Brazil, and it's early fruition, and ability to adapt to Tropical and Sub tropical portions of the globe.

Hope the scenery and fruitscape changes over there by u!  its nasty by us!  I have lots of work to do!  But I won't be deterred because I carry death in my pouch, I cannot be harmed.

It was introduced during the colonial times in Uganda, so I guess it was the "common" Eugenia at the time known to the British and of course also because of the adaptability - which here translate into 'drought resistance'; I don't see a replacement around the corner though.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 04:51:51 AM by Jegindo »
Søren
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #48 on: February 29, 2012, 05:31:46 AM »
Oscar, you misquoted me - I wrote "most of the other eugenia species are less drought resistant" - I have two species; E. dysenterica and E. pitanga which are more drought resistant then E. uniflora (and I seem to remember both being from the Cerrado ecosystem). And I agree, there could be many of the lesser cultivated species which likewise are drought resistant, but not the ones I grow or are aware of.

Soren, don't think i misquoted you. I think you misspoke. You said most of the other eugenias are less drought tolerant than surinam. But i think what you must have meant is most of the other eugenias you know are less drought tolerant. How many of the 200+ eugenia species do you know? That was my point.
About no replacements being around the corner, i don't think anyone saw surinam cherry coming either before it appeared. I don't really think anyone, you included, really knows what is around the corner. But i do think we shall soon see.
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Re: Pruning Jaboticaba!! M. cauliflora and M. cauliflora hybrid
« Reply #49 on: February 29, 2012, 05:48:20 AM »
Oscar - you wrote "I think you're wrong about surinam cherry being the most drought tolerant and only eugenia that is drought tolerant", which is not what I wrote in the sentence "Most of the other eugenia species are less drought resistant". I agree that the claim "Most of the other ..." is based on the common cultivated types, and not on the 200 or so species which exists in total many of which I can imagine no record of drought tolerance have been made.
When it comes to what is around the corner - it will depends on who introduces what and of course the timeline. Currently, I don't know which equally (or more) drought tolerant / adaptable species are substituting E. uniflora around the world? But, even if a replacement is there, it could take a long time before it will be propagated on a scale that will make a substitution possible (and to avoid misunderstandings, I am only referring to Eugenia, not other myrtaceae).
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 06:05:35 AM by Jegindo »
Søren
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