The Tropical Fruit Forum

Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: Ilya11 on October 30, 2018, 11:09:42 AM

Title: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Ilya11 on October 30, 2018, 11:09:42 AM
This year at the end of May the first of the hybrids that I made  in 2011 by pollination of 5* citrumelo flowers by Morton Citrange flowered for the first time:

(https://a.radikal.ru/a21/1810/5f/a66f9052b93a.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
 
Most of the  flowers were defective without pistils, but eventually three fruits were formed

(https://c.radikal.ru/c11/1810/59/19c83fa42084.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)

Fruits began to change color at the end of September, one of them looks ripe now

(https://c.radikal.ru/c17/1810/2d/a9608b0eabe0.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)

(https://d.radikal.ru/d36/1810/79/a0d8b692c0cd.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)

(https://a.radikal.ru/a28/1810/89/d024bac865eb.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)

(https://d.radikal.ru/d17/1810/2f/42c0e4e07300.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)

It is approximately of the size of poncirus fruit, has a pleasant outside odor resembling orange with fruity overtone, albedo is thick with some faint bitter taste, juice is sour like a lemon with no bitterness, no internal oils, no perceptible poncirus aftertaste. By taste it is close  to unripe orange.
I measured a sugar content - it had 13.5° Brix (Spanish clementine in parallel showed only 11°)

This  plant (11_03_24) is very resistant, probably more than both of its parents. It is in open ground without any protection since 2012, never was damaged by snow and freezing temperatures under conditions when both 5* and Morton showed some leaf damage. It requires a lot of iron supplement in  spring  to avoid deficiency, otherwise is very healthy 2 m high bush with small largely monofoliate leaves.
Could be an interesting step toward a  hardy citrus with sweet taste.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: mikkel on October 30, 2018, 02:04:27 PM
Good work!
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Jloup27 on October 30, 2018, 02:33:09 PM
The plant and the fruit are really beautiful :D.
It takes another few years to evaluate the full potential of the fruit that looks promising.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Florian on October 30, 2018, 04:55:34 PM
Well done, Ilya. It will be interesting to see if the fruit quality changes (improves) over time.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Citradia on October 30, 2018, 06:55:34 PM
Lovely. Morton and citrumelos are rather large fruits compared to other citranges. May this combination of the two produce larger fruit in the future?
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Ilya11 on October 31, 2018, 10:11:44 AM
I do not think so, evidently this guy decided to be of the size of its poncirus grandparents.
I still have its 5 brothers that survived out of initial three dozens. 
For me it is like a proof of  the concept, that it is possible to get rid of poncirus taste and to improve the hardiness with the respect of first generation hybrids.
It has also a tremendous advantage to ripen very early.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Florian on November 01, 2018, 05:31:37 AM
I will certainly follow this hybrid's development with great interest! Keep us updated.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Walt on November 01, 2018, 02:40:18 PM
This is very encouraging.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: kumin on February 23, 2019, 03:42:32 PM
Excellent combination of hardiness, early ripening, and palatability. The fruit is attractive as a bonus. Have you been able to determine if the seeds are zygotic?
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Ilya11 on February 23, 2019, 04:02:11 PM
Unfortunately they are highly polyembryonic, but pollen is fertile,  I have already several seedlings of its backcross to 5star.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: kumin on February 23, 2019, 04:08:19 PM
With it's positive attributes, it may prove valuable as a parent. Getting rid of the Poncirus tastes while retaining outstanding cold hardiness in the same plant is a real milestone.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Mangifera08 on February 24, 2019, 05:15:08 AM
Really cool! Thanks for the information and the pictures.
What exactly is the Citrumelo 5star? (Ponicirus trifoliata x ? )

Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: kumin on February 24, 2019, 06:35:33 AM
Ilya11, do you suppose the modest fruit size contributes to the early ripening? My thinking is there may less time lost in expanding fruit size, allowing early maturity. In colder regions, early maturity is of paramount importance, as severe cold temperatures would completely destroy the fruit. The ideal super cold hardy citrus tree needs to retain almost all of the positive characteristics of Poncirus, while discarding the negatives.

Thick albedo in the first crops of new citrus cultivars is not unusual. Although fruit size may remain constant, albedo thickness might decrease.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Ilya11 on February 24, 2019, 08:42:03 AM
Really cool! Thanks for the information and the pictures.
What exactly is the Citrumelo 5star? (Ponicirus trifoliata x ? )
It is an open pollinated seedling of Swingle citrumelo. It is extremely hardy and although does contain some amount of internal oils, can be used for a  jus or a  curd for the tarts.
http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopiceb1b.php (http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopiceb1b.php)
Not 100% zygotic, but after castration and cross pollination yields a  decent number of zygotic seedlings.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Ilya11 on February 24, 2019, 08:51:51 AM
Ilya11, do you suppose the modest fruit size contributes to the early ripening? My thinking is there may less time lost in expanding fruit size, allowing early maturity. In colder regions, early maturity is of paramount importance, as severe cold temperatures would completely destroy the fruit. The ideal super cold hardy citrus tree needs to retain almost all of the positive characteristics of Poncirus, while discarding the negatives.

Thick albedo in the first crops of new citrus cultivars is not unusual. Although fruit size may remain constant, albedo thickness might decrease.
It certainly can be like this, but I am trying to prove the opposite by backcrossing it to 5star or even crossing with Sarawak pomelo.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Mangifera08 on February 24, 2019, 12:59:33 PM
It is an open pollinated seedling of Swingle citrumelo. It is extremely hardy and although does contain some amount of internal oils, can be used for a  jus or a  curd for the tarts.
http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopiceb1b.php (http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopiceb1b.php)
Not 100% zygotic, but after castration and cross pollination yields a  decent number of zygotic seedlings.

Very interesting, thanks. Thank you very much also for this great link!
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: tedburn on January 01, 2022, 05:25:02 PM
Hello Ilya,
very interesting cross, are there some new informations about fruit specifications as taste, size, month of ripening,.. in the last two years 2020 and 2021, would be interesting - thank you.
Regards Frank
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Ilya11 on January 05, 2022, 04:58:33 PM
Last two seasons have not brought any improvements in fruit quality.
Summer of 2020 was very dry  while 2021 was wet and cold and both these conditions resulted in reduction of fruit internal  flesh.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Grapebush on March 24, 2022, 11:42:15 AM
This one looks like a nice cross.
Are there any images of the plant and fruits?
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Walt on March 25, 2022, 03:55:00 PM
Now that US 1279, 1281, and 1282 citandarins, each with >90% zygotic seeds, and 5* and Bishop citrumelos are in hand, I could make crosses like this like an assembly line.  But my plants are still young, so maybe not this year.
So many good crosses to make.  So little time.
Always good to read about your work Ilya.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Ilya11 on March 26, 2022, 08:36:48 AM
This one looks like a nice cross.
Are there any images of the plant and fruits?
Images are the collateral victims of Russian invasion of Ukraine.
They were stored at radical.ru that is now down.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: mikkel on March 26, 2022, 11:26:19 AM
Maybe I can help out
(https://i.vgy.me/3RiHt1.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/G0mPpO.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/dcN43x.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/BAyar0.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/4IiqnJ.jpg)
(https://i.vgy.me/pTQ5MC.jpg)
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: tedburn on November 18, 2022, 11:17:01 AM
@ Ilya, are there any news from your breeding with 5* backcross or Sarawak  ? Very nice fruits though a little bit small.
@Mikkel , thanks for delivering of deleated pictures
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Lauta_hibrid on January 09, 2024, 07:53:02 AM
Good morning, I wanted to provide an image to help the didactic explanation of the topic.  I hope it helps you, I tried to do everything to scale but I didn't have measurements of the fruit so I speculated a little 😅
(https://i.postimg.cc/nXrmpw7q/SAVE-20240109-095053.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nXrmpw7q)
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: poncirsguy on January 09, 2024, 11:01:52 AM
Now I understand.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Lauta_hibrid on January 10, 2024, 06:59:25 AM
Sorry, just that image also has a different hybrid, it is a rootstock from here in Argentina, I haven't been able to try its fruit yet, but it serves as an experience of how 2nd generation hybrids can reduce the size with respect to the parents
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Till on January 13, 2024, 11:26:12 AM
It is in fact not clear what "Swingle 5 Star", the plant Ila has made famous, actually is. It was for years believed to be a zygotic seedling of Swingle Citrumelo. But Bernhard Voss who distributed it has recently corrected himself and said that the real Swingle 5 Star, the one he called so, the one that is a seedling of Swingle Citrumelo, is another variety. There has be a mislabeling when Bernhard sent plants to Ilya.

We decided in the forums to still call "Swingle 5 Star" what has always been called Swingle 5 Star in the public because the variety Bernhard Voss originally called so is only known by a handfull people besides Bernhard himself. It would be too confusing to abolish the established name "Swingle 5 Star" because of a plant that hardly any person exept its breeder knows to exist. So lets continue calling "Swingle 5 Star" what Ilya has made famous.

That, however, means that the tale about its origin is not founded. What we can definitely say at the moment is that "Swingle 5 Star" from Ilya is a kind of Citrumelo, i. e. a cross of Poncirus with a pumelo (C. maxima) or with a grapefruit (C. paradisi). That is obvious. But more is spekulative.

I know that Ilya has searched for the real origin of his "Swingle 5 Star" and was in contact with Bernhard. Perhaps he has fresher information than I have. My information is from Ilya from last year.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Ilya11 on January 14, 2024, 04:32:47 AM
For me its origin  is still a little bit confusing.
After looking in my archive and exchanges with Bernhard it is most probably Voss1 hybrid of ChandlerXPT.
He still has its other sibling - ChandlerTri, it is now monofoliate and has fruited for the first time last year.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: mikkel on January 14, 2024, 04:39:58 PM
This is the Swingle 5Star from Bernhard Voss (Picture by B.Voss)

(https://i.vgy.me/BEHKZv.jpg)
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Lauta_hibrid on January 14, 2024, 07:14:15 PM
I thought there was an accurate story but it seems that.  I made the painting without these behind the scenes hehe.  For this reason I have my hybrids so well marked in date and parents, so as not to have confusion.  I'll see if I can get some citrumelo flowers next year so I can make my first crossings.  I would like to see what comes out of swingle x: Morton, lemon, Satsuma, clementine, Nova, nagami and grapefruit.  This is a long road and there are so many things to do ☺️🫡💪
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Florian on January 15, 2024, 02:29:16 AM
This is the Swingle 5Star from Bernhard Voss (Picture by B.Voss)

(https://i.vgy.me/BEHKZv.jpg)

From this pic, it isn't exactly evident what would earn this one 5 stars... ;D
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Till on January 15, 2024, 03:48:01 AM
Right. Does not look very attractive. But Bernhard said it was sweet. So it has probably inherited the acidless allel from Siamese Sweet, its grandparent. Aside from that the picture is not very telling because we don't know the growing condition. A different citrumelo will not necessarily perform better in North Germany.

I have again some zygotic seedlings of Dunstan Citrumelo. At least four of one small fruit. Two seem to be monofoliate. Two have paired first leaves while all the rest has alternate leaves. My other citrumelo (origin unclear) does also produce a number of zygotic seeds. So citrumelos are good mother plants. My Dunstan was again pollinated by C. ichangensis. But flowers were not castrated. So its not clear yet what seedlings I have.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: BorisR on January 15, 2024, 02:59:36 PM
Till, Ilya, Mikkel, thank you for sharing this information with us.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: mikkel on January 15, 2024, 04:09:37 PM


(https://i.vgy.me/BEHKZv.jpg)


This is a Swingle seedling. The original 5Star. What is now known as 5Star is a mislabelled plant that Ilya received from Bernhard.
The above plant is almost unknown, so I think it's better to stick with 5Star for Ilya's plant.
Title: Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
Post by: Till on January 16, 2024, 04:58:50 AM
And sorry. I was mistaken. I do NOT know how sweet the fruits on the photo are. I confused it with Chandler x PT (sibling of Swingle 5 Star??) an also almost unknown seedling from Bernhard.