Author Topic: Hardy citrus in PNW  (Read 3619 times)

SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2023, 01:49:09 PM »
"It's good where we're not." You can paraphrase this saying for plants as well. While Russians are looking for American varieties, such as “ninth ball” and the like, Americans are getting Russian varieties like “Parfianka” from somewhere.
I considered myself very familiar with rare pomegranate varieties and had never heard of "ninth ball".
I imagine it might perhaps be the same with the variety "Parfianka" in Russia (the limited parts of Russia where hardy pomegranate varieties can grow).

I think the variety "Parfianka" originated from former Soviet botanist Gregory Levin's surveys in Turkmenistan. I do not really know for sure if it has more hardiness (that is only what I heard) but do know that it has survived for me, seems to be doing very well, whereas I know of a regular pomegranate variety that was planted in a park (not too far away from here) that died, apparently unable to survive the winter, and was only able to live 2 or 3 years.


I live in Cincinnati and I can't grow grapes either
It is possible to grow grapes in Ohio but only certain special hardy varieties can be grown easily. I suspect it has as much to do with the summer humidity as the winter cold.
There are several vineyards not too far from Cincinnati.

"American and French hybrid types are better suited to Ohio growing conditions because they tend to be more winter-hardy."
https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/hyg-1423

(Though I personally prefer the more pure flavor of "European" vinifera grapes. Concord is representative of flavor of the American family)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2023, 02:02:42 PM by SoCal2warm »

bussone

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2023, 06:04:27 PM »
I live in Cincinnati and I can't grow grapes either

You probably can, but you’ll be limited in kind.

Concords happily grow in even eastern Michigan. You need the lake in western Michigan for wine grapes, and mostly Riesling and other German types.

bussone

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2023, 02:49:13 PM »
Poncirus aside, what other citrus varieties were native to mountains?
I do not really know but I don't think any citrus species are native to mountains. Poncirus trifoliata has been growing wild in the mountains of North Carolina though.

I think Poncirus polyandra might almost grow at what would be considered mountain elevation, though it is not very high. It rarely gets very hot there but also rarely goes below freezing, except at higher mountain elevations. Fumin county, Yunnan, China, where average daily highs do not rise above 68°F for half of the year.
This source says P. polyandra grows in forests on mountain slopes; at an elevation of around 2400 meters, southeast Yunnan (Funing).
Q. Ding et al., Acta Bot. Yunnan. 6: 292. 1984, not Citrus polyandra Tanaka (1928).
www.efloras.org , Rutacae
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=107164

Even Khasi papeda only grows in the "hills" and not mountains, and the temperatures never get very cold in the Meghalaya part of India)

Khasi might be something to consider. The Khasi Hills are a subtropical rainforest characterized by cool summers and occasionally freezing winters. Which sounds a lot like the PNW. While it may not be able to tolerate the lows that Ichang can, it may be able to tolerate less summer heat than Ichang seems to need.

To answer my own question, the citrus varieties known to populate higher altitudes include poncirus (trifoliata and polyandra); generally the papedas, but especially Ichang (cavaleriei) and Khasi (latipes), and generally tolerant fortunella.

Some of the same trends exist for Szechuan pepper, which is found in similar areas, and is one of the few rutaceae (zanthoxylum) which is hardier than poncirus. As an extremely general statement, it's also interesting that the hardier citrus relatives seem to be found in roughly the areas you'll find tea (camellia sinensis). This seems to hold true even in the US.

The advantage of hill/mountain species is a tendency towards being able to handle lowered summer heat and a faster transition to cold/freezing. Whether or not they can handle less moisture really depends on which side of a range they are on.

Poncirus crossing with fortunella is decently explored. Ilya and others are working poncirus through Ichang. Is anyone noodling with Khasi?

SoCal2warm

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2023, 10:21:12 AM »
Khasi might be something to consider. The Khasi Hills are a subtropical rainforest characterized by cool summers and occasionally freezing winters. Which sounds a lot like the PNW. While it may not be able to tolerate the lows that Ichang can, it may be able to tolerate less summer heat than Ichang seems to need.
I'm skeptical. The Khasi Hills have much more moderate temperatures and a much longer growing season than the PNW.
You can compare growing degree days between Olympia and Shillong (India) for example.
https://weatherspark.com/y/149040/Average-Weather-at-Lokpriya-Gopinath-Bordoloi-International-Airport-India-Year-Round#Figures-Temperature
https://weatherspark.com/y/894/Average-Weather-in-Olympia-Washington-United-States-Year-Round
In Shillong, by late March, the average high is already 86 and the low 66°F , much warmer than Olympia earlier in the year.

drymifolia

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2024, 09:56:57 AM »
I'm curious how other people's citrus did in the PNW this winter, which was generally mild other than the one very bad freeze in January. For me here in West Seattle, that freeze looked like this:

Coldest temperature: 14.7°F
Freezing hours:   104.8
Hours below 25°F:   69.4
Hours below 20°F:   26.5

My third-year yuzu seedling defoliated but had zero stem damage, and I see buds already beginning to swell. It was in a very exposed location with no protection.

Poncirus seedling (3 years old) had previously lost its leaves in the fall, and then started a new flush before the freeze, and those leaves became yellow but did not even fall off. Strong new flush starting now.

My own-root Dunstan citrumelo (one year since rooting) was entirely killed above ground. Still looks green at the base but no sign of new growth yet.

An own-root satsuma (unknown variety, two years since rooting) was mostly killed above ground, but has about 2 inches of green stem. No sign of growth yet.

That's all I had outside in-ground for the freeze. Everything in containers went in the greenhouse, where the heater kept it just above freezing on the coldest night.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2024, 09:58:32 AM by drymifolia »

jim VH

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2024, 02:03:50 PM »
I was going to wait a bit for the full extent of the damage of our winter down here in Vancouver Wa, across the Columbia River from Portland Ore, but I may as well report on what's currently observed.
  In fact, we've had two back to back hard winters down here, with the winter of 2022-2023 being primarily three Columbia River Gorge wind events with temperatures down to 18F, accompanied by East winds up to 40 mph. Those winds caused a surprising amount of damage to certain varieties, despite the relatively 𝘮𝘪𝘭𝘥 18F.
  This past winter of 2023-2024 was closer to a true arctic event.

Winter of 2022 to 2023:

December 21st to 24th 2022:
  low temperature of 20F(-6.6C) with 30 consecutive hours ranging between 20 and 22F.
  sustained winds of 15-20 mph, with gusts to 40 mph

January 30th 2023: one night at 18F(-7.8C), daytime highs above freezing.  No significant wind.

February 22nd to 25th 2023:
  Two nights at 18F(-7.8C) 36 consecutive hours below freezing.
  Sustained winds of 15-20 mph with gusts to 35 mph.

Here are my observations for my unprotected in the ground Citrus:

Undamaged citrus with less than 20% defoliation (the winds ripped a lot of leaves off the trees.)

  Large Yuzu on Flying Dragon (FD) rootstock from One Green World (OGW) nursery in exposed area
  'Sudachi-Yuzu hybrid' on FD rootstock from OGW nursery partially wind protected
  Sudachi from Mackenzie farms on Poncirus Trifoliate (PT) rootstock partially wind sheltered
  Ichang lemon on PT rootstock from Rolling River nursery, partially wind sheltered
  Kabosu from Mackenzie farms on FD rootstock, partially wind sheltered
  Kabosu from Mackenzie farms on PT rootstock, partially wind sheltered.
  Morton Citrange from OGW nursery on FD rootstock, partially wind sheltered.
  large Prague Citsuma on unknown rootstock from Mackenzie farms, wind exposed. 100% defoliated, undamaged
  Prague Citsuma on FD rootstock, partially wind sheltered. 100% defoliated, undamaged
  Small seed grown Changsha tangerine on FD rootstock, protected by styrofoam box.
Large seed grown Yuzu on its own roots

Some damage:
  Prague Citsuma on its own roots, 5% small twig damage. 100% defoliated.
  Large seed grown Thomasville Citrangequat on PT rootstock, 5% small twig death

Severely or mortally damaged:
  small Keraji Mandarin on FD rootstock, protected by styrofoam box--Dead.
  medium sized Keraji on unknown rootstock from Mackenzie farms--60% damaged, completely defoliated.
  large Thomasville Citrangequat from Mackenzi farms on FD rootstock, wind exposed: 30% defoliation, 30% small twig death.
  the same medium sized seed grown Thomasville as above, but on own roots, 100% defoliated, 50% small twig death. This is one of two survivors from a 10F(-12.2C) event in 2013 and has been killed the ground a couple times, but regrown from the roots.
  large seed grown Changsha on FD rootstock, wind sheltered, 6ft from west side of house. No 𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘪𝘢𝘭 damage, but later I noticed a large bark split 30% up from the base of the tree that impacted the growth above the split. Apparently the proximity to the heat of the house caused premature emergence from dormancy in late February, resulting in freezing of the sap and the resultant split. This is important for this past winters result. This tree is the sole survivor of 24 seedlings after four nights near 10F in 2009, and has survived 8F (-13.3C) event in January 2017 with minimal damage, so the bark split was a surprise.

A couple comments:
  The Prague Citsuma appears to be semi-deciduous, losing much of its leaves in a warm winter, so 100% defoliation is not surprising.
  Clearly Citrangequats, Changsha tangerines and Keraji Mandarins are not nearly as hardy as the Yuzu and its relatives; what used to be called Ichandrins, though there appears to be some debate on the ancestry. I will continue to call them Ichandrins, for now.
  Clearly the high winds were the major death factor here, for the three citrus varieties that showed damage have easily survived 18F with no damage at all in previous winters.


Winter of 2023 to 2024:

  One arctic event without high winds at my location, though the Portland and Pearson airports had some, and thus warmer temperatures. Without atmospheric mixing caused by the wind, my location was colder than either airport.

  My temperatures:    lowest temperature: 12.2F(-11C)
                               120 consecutive hours below freezing
                               51 consecutive hours between 15F and 21F
                               a true arctic event comparable to three previous ones I've had.
This is about 3F colder than what Puget Sound area seems to have got, likely due to extra cold filtering in from the Columbia River Gorge.

Citrus with less than 5% damage and less than 30% defoliation. These are the same as above, but I'm omitting references to their origin and exposure for brevity:
  Large Sudachi on PT rootstock
  large Ichang Lemon on PT rootstock
  large Morton Citrange on FD rootstock
  Prague Citsuma on unknown rootstock (100% defoliation)
  small Prague Citsuma on FD rootstock (100% defoliation)
  Seedling Citrangequat on PT rootstock-one large late growth watershoot shows 30% death, no other damage.
Large seed grown Yuzu on its own roots.

Citrus with some damage:
  small Prague Citsuma on its own roots: 100% defoliation, about 15% small twig death.
  Large Yuzu on FD rootstock: 70% defoliation, about 10% small twig damage. This is similar to what it has seen in three earlier events of similar or colder severity.
  large Thomasville Citrangequat on FD rootstock: 30% defoliation, 20% small twig damage. This is less than last winter!
  small seed grown Citrangequat on own roots: 30% defoliation, 20% small twig damage. Also less than last year! Apparently high winds have the same effect as 6 degrees lower temperatures.
  small seed grown Changsa on FD rootstock, unprotected this year: second growth flush dead, earlier growth undamaged, with about 50% defoliation. It appears to be hardier than the Citrangequats.
  large Kabosu on PT rootstock: 40% defoliation, 15% small twig damage.
  small Kabosu on FD rootstock: 40% defoliation, 10% small twig damage...but, there are some dead spots on larger branches that bear watching.

Large or mortal damage:
  'Sudachi-Yuzu hybrid' from OGW appears to be dead, though perhaps some small green patches may survive.
  Medium Keraji Mandarin: Dead
  Large seed grown Changsha on FD rootstock: everything above the large bark split reported above is dead or severely damaged; everything below has less than 10% small twig death.

A couple comments:
  It appears that high winds at 18F can cause more damage than calm winds 6-8 degrees colder for longer durations.
  It appears that planting a tree near a house for extra protection is a bad idea, since the heat of the house can cause premature breaking of dormancy, leaving it susceptible to a late freeze.
  The death of the 'Sudachi-Yuzu hybrid' from One Green World nursery is a real shocker, since it survived the previous winter undamaged, and the fruit and leaves appear to be identical in every way to the Suchachi from Mackenzie Farms. Perhaps it's a different, more susceptible, cultivar? Or perhaps there was some other factor at play that I can't identify.
  I was pleased to find that the Kabosu is almost as hardy as the other Ichandrins. (Yes, I will use it the term.) I haven't seen any other reference to its potential hardiness anywhere else, so perhaps this is new knowledge. Might be useful for breeding.
  Changshas in general are not as hardy as the one I have, since mine was the result of a mass selection; the sole survivor after exposure of 24 seedlings to four nights near 10F back in 2009. As I said, it survived 8F, whereas another random Changsha succumbed to the same event.
  Ichandrins may be more suitable than most other citrus to the climate of the Pacific Northwest, although the Morton Citrange held up pretty well.
  Citrus on their own roots don't seem to do as well as ones on PT or FD rootstock.

  On a sad note, I have several Satsumas protected in shelters with Christmas tree lights. It seem that half the lights in one of the strings on the Xie Shan Satsuma burned out without my noticing it ( I only checked for the glow, not the intensity) and is severely damaged, though it looks like it will survive.
 

Jim

 
 
 
 

 







 

« Last Edit: March 29, 2024, 02:10:31 PM by jim VH »

Millet

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2024, 02:24:35 PM »
Jim great post, very informative - well done.

jim VH

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2024, 03:43:20 PM »
Thank you Millet; I appreciate the compliment from someone as knowledgeable as you.

Jim

Balance

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2024, 02:10:31 AM »
I have a Owari satsuma that I've planted in ground on PT rootstock, just over a foot tall and has some slow leaf growth thus far. As well as a small Yuzu seedling that I planted when I thought the worst of the cold weather had passed a month or so back. If it manages to pull through, which is looking promising thus far, then it will have survived 16-18F, and extended periods of snow cover, will be impressive if it does, I had written it off as dead until seeing it hadn't even defoliated. I have a Meiwa kumquat in my greenhouse which is putting on growth at an impressive rate, but am not sure how I feel about planting it out in the yard as I'd done so previously with a Meiwa and it did not fare well over the winter.

Also drymifolia, if that Prague grafting situation works out, I'd indeed be interested.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 02:12:04 AM by Balance »

hardyvermont

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2024, 12:52:07 PM »
Meiwa did not fare well in a coastal South Carolina trial.  It is probably less hardy than other kumquats.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 09:22:53 PM by hardyvermont »

drymifolia

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2024, 09:12:31 PM »
Also drymifolia, if that Prague grafting situation works out, I'd indeed be interested.

All of my Prague grafts last year did this weird thing where they didn't fail but also never budded out. Here more than a year later they are STILL green but haven't grown yet. I'm hoping one of them starts growing this year, out of the three that are still green.

Perplexed

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2024, 10:00:42 PM »
Meiwa did not fare well in a coastal South Carolina trial.  It is probably less hardy than other kumquats.

Try Marumi kumquat. 10F

a_Vivaldi

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2024, 10:15:40 PM »
I've seen that number for Marumi, but man it seems too good to be true. Have you grown it yourself and had that kind of hardiness?

Perplexed

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2024, 11:22:26 PM »
I've seen that number for Marumi, but man it seems too good to be true. Have you grown it yourself and had that kind of hardiness?
I can't prove it's hardiness for itself, but I purchased it recently and will find out if its true or not. But what I've seen appears to be convincing.




a_Vivaldi

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2024, 10:00:39 AM »
And just like that, Madison Citrus Nursery is sold out of Marumi, despite having decent stock yesterday when I looked.

Alright, fess up, who bought them all last night?

Perplexed

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2024, 08:44:00 PM »
Same with US 119. I should've got it when I saw it restock 2 days ago.

Sunmicroman

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2024, 02:33:56 PM »
I don't post much here, but thought I'd chime in, since I do and have grown hardy citrus in the Pac NW for many years. Since many here may not know me yet (but those that have been doing this for a while might recognize my username from older citrus boards), I started my cold hardy citrus journey in the Pac NW around '93-'94 and have grown too many varieties to even list (or remember, LOL). I moved to Albuquerque NM for a few months in the summer of '97 and started the "Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board" back then (as far as I am aware of, the first of its kind).

I got remarried and we purchased a home last summer. So, I basically just planted my yard, to give some perspective. I have owned two other houses in the Pac NW, with most recently before that one with an ex that was located in Gladstone, Oregon (Portland metro area). Unfortunately, I lost most of my citrus due to my ex keeping the house in our divorce (and she didn't like how I planted the yard, so she was going to get rid of a lot of the plants). So, I had to start out all over again (with just a couple of hardy citrus in pots from that house). My new location is outside the city of Kelso, WA. in the country by the hills. I am around 45 mins north up the highway from my friend Jim VH who is in Vancouver, WA. My temps usually run about 5+ degrees colder than his, but I still am in zone 8 (with the advent of "a" and "b" designations, I am not quite sure which fits my location yet). So that is a little of my back round and now on to this past winter's hardy citrus results.

This past winter we had 4-5 days below freezing and a low of 10, I believe like two times (with a few frost days before that freeze, that probably helped harden off the citrus some). I did no protection (in retrospect, I should have, but wasn't prepared for an arctic front the first year we were there).

The varieties that didn't seem to get damaged are:

   x639 larger rootstock seedling (Madison) that lost a few leaves, but surprisingly kept a few. Very happy with the hardiness of this variety
   Taitri Seeding I got from my long time citrus buddy eyeckr
   My Picone Citremon (has my last name in it. named by my friend eyeckr) just defoliation, but no apparent twig damage. A little about this one. Back in 2012, I bought a Meyer Lemon
   from the store and decided to pant some of its seeds. I got a few sprouts and to my surprise, one had trifoliate leaves. Having years of knowledge about hardy citrus, I immediately knew I
   had a trifoliate hybrid and was excited to see what would become of it. As a seedling, it survived in a container outside and this was in a pretty wet damp location and, if I recall correctly,
   froze solid in it's container and may have taken 12 or so degrees in that container as a small seedling (so froze solid) in one of our arctic fronts that happen in the Pac NW from time to time
   with no damage that I remember. I knew I had something of a winner. So after purchasing my last house with my ex in 2018, I planted it in the ground and it did really well. But,
   unfortunately due to the divorce and not having anywhere at the time for it, my son and myself dug it up and planted at his house where it may have died (hope not, but it's not looking good
   right now). However, luckily I had some foresight and sent some cuttings to eyeckr who graciously grafted them for me (haven't quite honed my grafting skills quite yet and wanted to make
   sure it was saved) and then sent me back a couple of the grafted cuttings. One of which is currently in my new yard. I haven't had fruit yet, but am really hoping it is good, since it seems to
   be very well adapted to the Pac NW with it's wet damp cold winters
   Trifeola (One Green World) - (mainly defoliation, but no apparent twig dieback)
   A very tiny grafted Prague (Stan Mckenzie) that had some snow cover
   A pure Poncirus (rootstock from Stan Mckenzie)- not even any leaf drop

The varieties that received damage were:

   Grafted (on US 942) Changsha (Madison) - dead as a doornail to the graft point
   Thomasville seedling from eyeckr - twig dieback, but looks like it will make it, as some green on bottom part of it
   Ichang Lemon seedling (Woodlanders) - looks pretty much dead
   Taiwanica Lemon seedling (Woodlanders) - looks pretty much dead
   Ichang Papeda seedling (Woodlanders) - Twig dieback to pretty much the snow line. Green beneath that, so I am hoping it recovers. Honestly, I am not that impressed with Ichang
   Papeda's hardiness (at least, in my area), especially in light of its reputation
   US 942 seedling (decent sized rootstock tree from Madison) - a lot of twig damage. This one really disappointed me because I had heard it was a good candidate for a hardy edible
   citrus and it is is close to the same size as the x639 that had no damage
   Keraji seedling (Woodlanders) - dead, but still remarkably has some greenish leaves hanging on that go down to a dead looking twig. I expect them to eventually fall off and it to be
   probably dead
   Rusk Citrange (Woodlanders) - pretty dead, but still has some green on the lower trunk (probably around snow line). I really wanted this variety, so I hope it grows back
   Grafted Yuzu on PT (Stan Mckenzie) - dead twigs and appears to be dying back to graft point. This one also really disappointed me, as Yuzu is pretty hardy (this one was located right
   next to the x639 in my front yard)
   Ventura Lemandarin - very small seedling I got from Jim VH. It died back to snow the line, but is starting to grow from it's truck. It is remarkably hardy, since it really is a very small
   seedling

   I also have a very small Flying Dragon in a pot on my porch that froze, so we will see how it does. So far, pretty green still.

I am not too surprised with some of the results, as I have been doing this long enough to kind of know what to expect with small plants, no protection, and that kind of freeze. But, was still hopeful. Anyway, it did show me what was the most hardy for my area, though (I do know it can get potentially lower than last winter's freeze once every decade or so, but will be ready with protection this time, in case of that event).
Founder of the original "Hardy Palm & Subtropical Board" in 1997

BorisR

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2024, 04:43:57 PM »
Hello, Sunmicroman. Thank you for this information. If you have such frosts once a decade, then I think this is the border of 8a and 7b.

Perplexed

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2024, 05:40:26 PM »
all of woodlanders citrus is seedling unfortunately. so with some varieties hardiness may be altered due to variation, especially ichang papeda.

Sunmicroman

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2024, 06:10:28 PM »
It has been 8F in Vancouver, WA. a few years back and it is still classified zone 8b. Rare, once in a while, lows below your zone designation do not dictate what zone an area is classified as. The USDA zone map lists Kelso and my area outside of town as a zone 8b. This was just an off winter. But, we all know about the new USDA zone reclassifications and trusting them. ;-)

Yes, unfortunately Woodlanders only sells citrus seedlings. The reason I mentioned it was for people to consider that when I wrote about what got damaged, etc. and what did not. Yes, and I agree there are different variations within varieties that do affect hardiness. I also think where they originally come from can alter that some, but that is just my theory. I am thinking since my Picone Citremon began it's life in the area it did, that had some influence on its hardiness and also what it will tolerate, but again, I can't prove that. However, I believe there are some variations of cold hardiness tolerances from the same type of variety, but originating from differing geographic areas.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2024, 06:17:55 PM by Sunmicroman »
Founder of the original "Hardy Palm & Subtropical Board" in 1997

bussone

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2024, 05:47:28 PM »
   A pure Poncirus (rootstock from Stan Mckenzie)- not even any leaf drop

The varieties that received damage were:

   Thomasville seedling from eyeckr - twig dieback, but looks like it will make it, as some green on bottom part of it

Similar here. My Thomasville got whacked in late January and isn't looking great, although it's not all dead yet.
Species poncirus didn't even drop leaves.

drymifolia

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Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2024, 10:46:37 PM »
My yuzu seedling that survived the January freeze with just defoliation (all but one leaf!) is just now starting bud swell.