Author Topic: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse  (Read 9363 times)

KarenRei

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Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« on: July 25, 2014, 11:58:59 AM »
So, I mentioned long ago that I'd bought land to build a house and greenhouse on. I was greatly delayed by needing to switch architects and lots of other architect-related delays. Thankfully things are now back on track  :)

I had initially been planning on having the greenhouse conjoined with the house. However, I was thinking about it, and I was thinking it might be a neat idea to have it here:




It's a natural ravine on my land. I was thinking I'd build a roof over a good section of it, a concrete wall with a door on the north end, and a glass wall on the south end. Plants could then be planted straight in the ground. There's a year-round flowing creek and groundwater flows in in places from the side, so the soil should always be moist to varying degrees depending on location. The ravine runs north-south, which is normally suboptimal, but doesn't matter as much in Iceland in general (the sun rotates more "around" you instead of over), and in particularly on my land because it's in a valley that runs largely east-west, the mountain to the south blocks some light in that direction at certain times of year. Most of the soil in the ravine is fertile, though on the far side in part of the ravine I'd need to improve the soil before planting anything direct into it. I'd run a hot water line to it for geothermal radiant heating, and possibly cold water too if I think the natural groundwater wouldn't meet all of my needs. The ravine ranges in depth from 0 (where it starts) to maybe 5 meters deep, and the arch of the glass would add even more height (I could also raise the glass a little if I felt I needed more height). Using the ravine would mean no excavation needed and no need to build a floor or the two long walls, plus great natural insulation. The fact that it's not part of the house would mean that it wouldn't as convenient to just pop in, however. But if I don't need to water every day due to the groundwater (aka, trudge out through snow and storms), then I don't think that'd be a problem. None of my land gets direct sunlight for maybe 2 months of the year, so I could put some or all of my LED lighting in there as a supplement (but that'd mean running power over there... still, I could do that)

What do you all think? Do you think that'd be a good idea?

(I know it looks shadowed in these pictures... but that's because they were taken at around 11 PM  ;)  )
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 09:13:13 AM by KarenRei »
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Radoslav

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 02:30:56 PM »
Theoretically you can build greenhouse wherever you want.  :D  The critical question is how much money you want to spend for heating. That is all.  If you have thermal water for free, this question is irelevant. If it is not for free and  you want to save some money, you have to follow the same orders like when it comes to "passive" houses etc. so common practice is to put as much as possible of greenhouse under ground, so you can use natural "holes" like those on your  pictures.
I am going to built greenhouse too, main surface will be 1,2 m underground and roof I  designed similar to design of covers for pools and it will be movable, so I can open the roof in the summer - to decrease temperature and to allow rain comes in - because best water is rain water.

CoPlantNut

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 02:36:30 PM »
Neat idea- I like the concept of using the natural contours of the land.  Plus, it would be undeniably cool to have a stream running through the greenhouse.

But wouldn't the stream / groundwater be awfully cold in the wintertime, keeping root zone temperatures near freezing?

   Kevin

TREESNMORE

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 02:44:59 PM »
Does the ravine every flood.Hate to grow trees for 5 ,10 or 20 years then 10 foot of water.
Mike

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 03:13:31 PM »
Based upon experience...I would keep the GH separate from the home.  Moisture is a bitch.

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 04:50:25 PM »
interesting idea.  i'm interested to hear how it progresses.  i have a brother in scotland who is keen on greenhouses.
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jcaldeira

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 04:57:59 PM »
Capturing solar heat seems a key to success.  I wonder if there's anything that can be done with reflectors or heat sinks to capture more of it.

I've been impressed with the solar water heater I have on my roof.  A similar design could also be used to heat a greenhouse.   Technologically, it's pretty simple.  Coils filled with water circulate within glass panels, warming the water.  As the warmer water rises, it circulates into a tank that performs as a heat sink.

Something like this diagram, but you'd have the tank(s) in the greenhouse without insulation.
 

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KarenRei

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 05:27:41 PM »
Jcaldeira: Quite neat, but I could never justify a solar heater here when geothermal water is so cheap.  :)  It's not that much more expensive than municipal cold water (although I'm not going to be paying for cold water, only capital costs - I have a spring). It's just like I can't justify doing my own electricity generation when the power here is quite cheap and pretty clean on its own.

Radoslav: A pool cover as a roof so you can open it up in the summer? Hmm, it's a neat idea, but I could never do that here, the winds would destroy a pool cover in short order. Also, there's no point to a removeable roof because our summers are cooler an a typical winter in the tropics, I don't think the plants would like it  ;)  That said, I'll have to have openable windows at regular intervals for ventilation.

CoPlantNut: Good point about the water temperature, and you know, I'm not really sure. The groundwater that seeps in from the sides shouldn't be a problem, it's slow enough that it should be warmed from the soil (which in turn will be warmed by the greenhouse) - except in one or two places, they're only fast enough to make the ground consistently muddy. But the stream, while it never fully freezes even without a greenhouse over it, moves fast enough that I'd expect it to stay pretty cold. Now, hmm... it does start as an underground stream further up, near the start of the ravine, maybe I could insulate or heat the ground there.... I'll need to think about that. But I *suspect* that the groundwater that seeps in from the sides won't be too cold at least, even if the stream itself is. You know, this would really require some experimentation.

Oh hey, I know what I could do... if the county doesn't require that I return the used hot water from the radiators for re-blending into the system (I have no clue whether that would be a requirement), I could dump the used hot water into the stream.  :)  The flow rate through the radiators is pretty small, but then again, the flow rate through the stream is pretty small too.

Treesandmore: No, it never floods, it's much too steep for that (the average slope is maybe 10 degrees). It's fed by an underground stream, too, which limits its flow rate. Plus, Iceland rarely gets very heavy rainstorms. Drizzle / light rain for weeks on end, yeah, we get that, but not flash flooding type stuff. Our snowpack melt rates are pretty steady, too, because we have so little difference in temperature between summer and winter, so we don't generally get melt floods either. The only "flash floods" we generally get are jökulhlaup ("glacier runs" - it's actually a scientific term taken from Icelandic, its when a volcano under a glacier melts the ice above it and causes a flood surge). Those can be *huge* (the last big one from Katla in the 1700s had a peak flow more than the flood stage of the Amazon river), but thankfully none of the volcanoes in my valley have gone off in the past 100k years and they're not glaciated.  :)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 05:39:03 PM by KarenRei »
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Doglips

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 04:06:56 AM »
Looks nice.
I think the ravine is a great idea, a way to achieve height without paying for some of it and the ground protection from cold.
I'd just want to be sure about the water coming in to the structure, but if you a fine with that....

Pretty daunting task.  How big of a structure are to going to do?

Radoslav

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 06:32:46 AM »
Maybe you should start your experiment with subtropicals instead of tropicals to gain some experiences with your conditions, citruses, persimmons, cherimolas, figs, pomegranate etc.  are not that challenging. For them is 10 Celsius enough for winter time, they are practicaly in dormancy during winter, so minimum sunlight and nearly zero water during winter days with temperature around 10 Celsius is good for them.

phantomcrab

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 07:01:03 AM »
A site with ideas and pictures from many pit greenhouse projects - http://www.inspirationgreen.com/pit-greenhouses.html
One of them was built in Patagonia.
Having the stream running through the greenhouse will generate heating and structural issues.
Richard

KarenRei

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 09:08:40 AM »
Doglips: Not sure on size. I can often get glass for free, but the panels are pretty random, and I'll still have to pay for appropriate frames. They're also too heavy for me to work with alone, I can barely carry the large panes, let alone install them. I was thinking about starting at moderate size, maybe 5 meters across, 3-4 deep, 7 long, but then expanding down the ravine in the future if needed. That is, I'd need to make sure that the southern wall isn't too hard to take apart, I don't want to have to bring in a wrecking ball  ;)  At the very bottom, where the ravine empties into the canyon, it's probably 8 meters wide, 5 deep,  The whole ravine is about 100 meters long, so the total available space is pretty much unlimited.

Radoslav: The problem is, it's to be a home for tropicals that already exist  ;) They need a home. Currently they're growing in a 4-5 meter plastic tent in my apartment.

Phantomcrab: structural issues? But there wouldn't be any footings in the wet stuff - they'd be on the tops which are dry and seem to be stable (further down the ravine I could  even have them straight on bedrock, at least on the near side... I'm not sure how deep bedrock is further up the ravine). Are you talking about footings or some other kind of structural issue?

It would be pretty easy, if so desired, to re-route the stream through a conduit, it's not very high flow rate. Stopping the seeps would be harder, I'd think, it'd take a french drain or something running the whole length where they're active, and it'd have to be insulated.

Hmm, I have an idea... if I could estimate flow rates the next time I'm on the land, I could do the heat transfer calcs and see how much of an issue that'd be. The seeps are slow enough that I can just assume that they fully heat up in the greenhouse, so I don't have to deal with transfer rates.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 09:17:59 AM by KarenRei »
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Doglips

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 10:07:47 AM »
I don't how much drop or flow you have but you could generate power off of the stream.

No water shed rules there?

KarenRei

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2014, 12:31:13 PM »
Plenty of drop but not enough flow to be relevant. It's just a little trickling stream. A very pretty stream, mind you, with little pools, tiny waterfalls, etc, but just a stream. Maybe a quarter cup of water per second.
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AlexRF

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 01:06:52 PM »
Neat idea- I like the concept of using the natural contours of the land.  Plus, it would be undeniably cool to have a stream running through the greenhouse.

But wouldn't the stream / groundwater be awfully cold in the wintertime, keeping root zone temperatures near freezing?

   Kevin

Kevin correctly alludes to the root zone temperature.
Root system of most tropical plants in my greenhouse is very poorly tolerate long-term cooling below 15 Celsius.
I really like your idea to use the ravine, but I would not put plants directly into the soil.
Your greenhouse air warms the ground not deeper than 10-20 cm. This will not be enough. Moreover, it is likely to be too wet.
You can construct your greenhouse floor on screw piles. The stream would flow freely under the floor.
Floor area over the flow can be transparent (tempered glass or steel mesh).

Northern wall covered with mirrors will greatly increase the illumination.
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MangoFang

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2014, 01:27:55 PM »
Karen, for someone (me) who comes from a cold winter climate (upstate NY)
I don't have a lot to add to whats already been said....except....

GO FOR IT!


Gary

KarenRei

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2014, 05:06:53 AM »
Kevin correctly alludes to the root zone temperature.
Root system of most tropical plants in my greenhouse is very poorly tolerate long-term cooling below 15 Celsius.
I really like your idea to use the ravine, but I would not put plants directly into the soil.
Your greenhouse air warms the ground not deeper than 10-20 cm. This will not be enough. Moreover, it is likely to be too wet.
You can construct your greenhouse floor on screw piles. The stream would flow freely under the floor.
Floor area over the flow can be transparent (tempered glass or steel mesh).

I haven't had the time yet to get out there and estimate flow rates. But I'm thinking, perhaps the simple solution would instead just be to build it, have everything there in pots for several months, then dig and measure the temperature where the roots would be. Whever it's warm enough, things could go straight into the ground. Where it's not, they'd have to remain in pots, or perhaps raised beds. Do you think that would be a reasonable approach?

I do however disagree about the statement, "Your greenhouse air warms the ground not deeper than 10-20 cm. ". One cannot make a blanket statement like that, it depends entirely on geometry. The broader a structure's footprint and especially the deeper it is submerged, the deeper and broader the warm area surrounding it is (the ground acts as insulation). Here's an example (not, mind you, of a greenhouse!) of how heat flow patterns work out in the real world:



The graph is mistitled, the object in that case is 10 feet underground (not 100), as is pointed out in the study and in the 10' label, but anyway...  the point is, there's no single rule that "heat only moves X centimeters", it's entirely contingent on your geometry, and if something is below ground level, the hot zone goes *much* further due to the distance that heat has to flow to reach the surface. Soil ranges from an R value of 1 m*K/W (wet, compact) to 4 (dry, loose). That's an order of magnitude less than regular insulation, but when you're talking several meters distance for heat to flow, it really adds up.. And you can greatly extend it by insulating the area near the surface at the edges of your structure with conventional insulation if so desired.

I have no concerns about regular heat flow. The real question I have is, as others pointed out, whether water influx would counter this. Water influx through insulating soil is like an air leak through insulating panels. How fast heat would be lost by water leaking in, honestly, I don't know, because I don't know how fast it leaks in through the soil (I'm not particularly concerned about the creek, it should flow in and then out without an appreciable change in temperature - it moves too fast to fully warm). All I know is that there's some areas which remain persistently damp, and there's a couple little trickly side streams that drip in in places (drops at a time). I don't even know if those seeps are year-round persistent - the creek is, but the seeps normally get buried under a super-deep snow bank (ravine in a windy area = snow collector), so I can't see them.

Hmm, I suppose another option would be to trench geothermal water pipes through the soil instead of using geothermal radiators - heating the soil rather than the air directly. It'd be more cost / work, though.

Quote
Northern wall covered with mirrors will greatly increase the illumination.

Not in a valley in Iceland.  I may do it anyway, mind you, but the sun works differently here, it goes around you more like a slightly tilted horizontal circle. In the summer, the sun rises and sets behind Sandfell in the north - it does maybe 300 degrees arc around you at the solstice (rises in the NNE, then goes to E to S to W to NNW where it sets again). In the winter, it's entirely behind Esja to the south for over two months - no direct light at all. It's not that the valley is unusally deep, it's just that the sun is so dang low in the sky in the winter.. There's no direct light in the immediate southern portion of the sky for maybe a third to half a year - primary sun in my location comes from west and southeast, primarily the former, due to the sun's low angle and my location in this particular valley.

Compare:

http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/usa/miami
http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/iceland/reykjavik

For the summer solstice, picture those arcs slid up by about 4 degrees from where they are now. For the winter solstice, picture them down by about 42 degrees.

As a general rule for Iceland, also, a higher percent of the sun's energy is indirect light. In the middle of winter, even for locations without mountains on your southern horizon almost all light is indirect, you only get direct sunlight for maybe a couple hours a week. The sun takes such a low arc it's so easy for clouds or ground-based objects to obstruct it, it only peaks a couple degrees over the horizon. But there's always a surprising amount of "dim". And in the summer, even when the sun is hidden behind something to the north, it's still more than bright enough to keep doing everyday activities outside all night. You even get multiple sunrises / sunsets on a single day sometimes, depending on your location - the sun moves at such a shallow angle that when it passes behind, say, a mountain range, it can set and then rise beyond each peak it passes through

Basically, the way it works out for everyone with a greenhouse here is that in the summer, there's a crazy amount of natural light available for growth, but in winter, it's a "suppliment just to keep them alive" sort of thing. Thankfully, I currently grow entirely on electric lighting, so I should be able to manage that. Most people here use HPS but I'm mostly LED.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 04:22:26 AM by KarenRei »
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AlexRF

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2014, 06:27:19 PM »
But I'm thinking, perhaps the simple solution would instead just be to build it, have everything there in pots for several months, then dig and measure the temperature where the roots would be. Whever it's warm enough, things could go straight into the ground. Where it's not, they'd have to remain in pots, or perhaps raised beds. Do you think that would be a reasonable approach?

It's reasonable.

I do however disagree about the statement, "Your greenhouse air warms the ground not deeper than 10-20 cm. ". One cannot make a blanket statement like that, it depends entirely on geometry.

Maybe I was too categorical about 10-20 cm. However, I still doubt...

Hmm, I suppose another option would be to trench geothermal water pipes through the soil instead of using geothermal radiators - heating the soil rather than the air directly. It'd be more cost / work, though.

My opinion: not instead, only additives. Yes, more cost/work. But it is one-time costs and greenhouse for many many years ... :)
This could increase the chance for a tropical plants.

Quote
Northern wall covered with mirrors will greatly increase the illumination.

Not in a valley in Iceland.  I may do it anyway, mind you, but the sun works differently here, it goes around you more like a slightly tilted horizontal circle.

Mirrors probably will enhance indirect light and LED-light. Experimental measurements can be made by luxmeter.
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CoPlantNut

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2014, 07:10:41 PM »
Mirrors won't reflect as much light as just painting the wall flat white.  Or you could get Orca Film and get even better reflectivity...

AlexRF

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 12:41:01 AM »
Mirrors won't reflect as much light as just painting the wall flat white.  Or you could get Orca Film and get even better reflectivity...

Just read aboout "Orca Grow Film" for hydroponic industry. Very interesting for Northern greeenhouses.
Do you happen to know, how much is 1 square meter? Did not find the price on their website.
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Mark in Texas

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2014, 08:07:54 AM »
Hi Karen, was just thinking about you and your project!  Happy to see it might get off the ground.

Without an on site survey I'm not going to give much opinion but I will share some of my "mistakes".   Watch the moisture issues.  My galvanized columns which are encased in concrete piers are rusting due to being in contact with the ground and they're only 3 years old.  I'd put all columns and other foundation supports on a concrete footing, whether they be treated wood or metal.

Go with polycarbonate covering if you can afford it, the clear. 

Yes, you'll need HID's or some other form of supplement lighting. How are you gonna block light?  Some of your tropicals if not all must flower/fruit based on photoperiods, no?

Also, I'd grow in raised bottomless pots like the RootBuilder I use.  Everything is growing like a weed and I found roots to China when expanding a citrus pot last month. Check it out - http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50

Good luck,
Mark
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 08:18:44 AM by Mark in Texas »

KarenRei

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2014, 10:13:13 AM »
Hi Karen, was just thinking about you and your project!  Happy to see it might get off the ground.

Without an on site survey I'm not going to give much opinion but I will share some of my "mistakes".   Watch the moisture issues.  My galvanized columns which are encased in concrete piers are rusting due to being in contact with the ground and they're only 3 years old.  I'd put all columns and other foundation supports on a concrete footing, whether they be treated wood or metal.

Go with polycarbonate covering if you can afford it, the clear. 

Yes, you'll need HID's or some other form of supplement lighting. How are you gonna block light?  Some of your tropicals if not all must flower/fruit based on photoperiods, no?

Also, I'd grow in raised bottomless pots like the RootBuilder I use.  Everything is growing like a weed and I found roots to China when expanding a citrus pot last month. Check it out - http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50

Good luck,
Mark

Yeah, raised bottomless pots are increasingly sounding like a good idea.  :)  They'd also mean no need for grass removal, which is a pain.

I really don't have a realistic way to block light, apart from the fact that it'll be naturally blocked during the winter.

Polycarbonate would be nice (certainly easier to install, glass is so dang heavy!), but they'd have to be super-rugged. The winds here this summer flipped a 3 ton shipping container on my land 9 times over - and summer is usually the least windy season! We get hurricane force winds annually. The polycarbonate panels I'm used to, I really doubt they'd last more than a few months here; seems everyone here uses glass, including the commercial growers.

I've never asked, but the greenhouses here look like they're made out of aluminum. But maybe it's galvanized steel, I'm not sure. I'm having trouble envisioning what your setup is versus what you recommended - you said that your columns are embedded in concrete and they're rusting, but then you recommend embedding them in concrete? And if they're in concrete how are yours rusting - doesn't concrete protect steel from rust until it carbonates (which it does at a rate of 1-4mm per year)? Concrete is usually the icelandic building material of choice, so I definitely want to make use of it for the footings if I can.

(Back when I lived in the US, I had a small, steel-frame greenhouse which ultimately got killed by rust after just a few years, so I know how nasty that can get! Partly my fault, I built a sprinkler system into it, and I'm sure that made the frame rust several times faster, but still, I definitely don't want that to happen again!)

Hmm, this all reminds me, I need to bug my excavator operator, he hasn't been on the site for a couple weeks now and he's supposed to be building my cold water system right now.  :Þ
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Mark in Texas

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2014, 10:40:32 AM »
Polycarbonate would be nice (certainly easier to install, glass is so dang heavy!), but they'd have to be super-rugged.

The Palram Dyna-glas polycarb is as tough as nails.  You can not tear it up by hand via bending, striking with a hammer, etc.  As long as the ends are screwed down on every valley it will easily go thru a hurricane.  Double wall may be different, don't know. I installed corrogated.

Quote
you said that your columns are embedded in concrete and they're rusting, but then you recommend embedding them in concrete?

My columns are in concrete but there's about 4" above the concrete whereby the galv steel is covered with soil.  "My galvanized columns which are encased in concrete piers are rusting due to being in contact with the ground and they're only 3 years old.  I'd put all columns and other foundation supports on a concrete footing, whether they be treated wood or metal."  IOW, keep the steel exposed to air, not the ground.

Mark
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 03:14:32 PM by Mark in Texas »

Doglips

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2014, 11:58:41 AM »
Kind of a reiteration...
Moisture on metal is a bad thing.  Sink concrete piers as deep as needed and bolt columns above ground.  Use the coated rebar in the piers so you don't explode the concrete when they corrode (not as fast anyways).  You normally would want any metal in concrete a minimum of 4" from any surface.

If the natural light is really not going to a reliable source, why have any clear panels, just insulate a warehouse.

AlexRF

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Re: Siting for a tropicals greenhouse
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2014, 02:57:32 PM »
"I've never asked, but the greenhouses here look like they're made out of aluminum. But maybe it's galvanized steel, I'm not sure...".

Most of greenhouses in my region  (and mine too) made out of aluminium. Too humid climate. Plating and anticorrosion paints are effective for several years only.
YES WE SCAN NEW TROPICAL FRUITS

 

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