Has any body bought Tim Thompson's new mango varieties?

[bsbullie]

Mangoes that have been gradted per normal industry standards do NOT have a deep tap root...they basically h ave no tap root.

[shaneatwell]

My understanding from an informal presentation Tim Thompson gave to our CRFG is that he discovered a air-layer-able seedling from a failed graft (it was pushing roots under the graft tape) which he's been using. No etiolation required. Seems rarer than cold-hardy mango trees.

I haven't heard him repeat this or seen it in print, so take it with a grain of salt.

[HMHausman]

Might need more than one grain

[barath]

After I posted my question a few months back above about the rootstock, I spoke with Tim and he said something a little different from what folks reported from his CRFG presentation.

I think this is accurate, but it has been a while so I'm not sure I remember right: he said that the first batch of trees he's selling are on some regular sort of turpentine rootstock, just because that's what he was able to get enough of.  For his second batch of trees (not sure when this will be) he hopes to use his own developed rootstock variety, which he plans to tissue culture.  Perhaps this new rootstock is the one he had previously described as being airlayer-able, or maybe I misheard (I didn't realize tissue culture was used for mangos).

[Diospyros]

Interesting -- so his rootstock trees are actually airlayers from some new variety he bred?

Could it be that he's using etiolation instead of airlayering per se to propagate his rootstock.

Etiolation has been succesfully used to propagate avocado rootstocks resistant to salinity and PC accross the from CA, to Spain and South Africa!

This is a very interesting question. I agree with you about etiolation for avocado rootstocks. I believe this is the process that Brokaw Nurseries and other use to generate clonal rootstocks. It is essentially airlayering but I recall reading (awhile ago) that there was etiolation period before the airlayering process which produces a better airlayer. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

I have also always read that mangoes are typically difficult to airlayer. It can and has been done (by members of this forum too), but the success rate is often low. But I think you might be on to something. Maybe an etiolation period could really increase the success rate.

One would point out that this is not the preferred way to propagate a mango tree, because the mangoes grow with very large and deep taproots and an airlayer will obviously not have a taproot. But this can likely be overcome by tailoring a watering schedule and treating it like a shallow rooted tree (more frequent watering) instead of a deep rooted one (infrequent very deep watering). However this means that the airlayered rootstock has to be very salt tolerant because any water salinity will be exacerbated by this watering approach.

Good insights, there is a lot to consider about these trees. Which I admit I am very interested in. Every winter I protect my mango trees with C9 Christmas lights and frost cloth (my winter lows tend to be 28-30 F). But if a mango was bred to have a few more degrees of cold tolerance, it would make a big difference to my growing area.

Hey Starch,


the etiolation technique also called the Froelich technique is indeed used by Browkaw Nurseries. In fact I believe they also perfected it.

As is the case with mangos; having a tap root is be the best option but plants grafted onto clonal rootstock they will eventually develop a strong root system after it's established.

Here's a link to better understand the etiolation technique : http://www.avocadosource.com/WAC4/WAC4_p217.pdf


Does a trees frequently watered need to be more tolerant to salinity? I mean unless you had high levels of salt in your water, I would have thought frequent water would on the contrary wash away any excess of salts?

Anyway, just like the rest of you, I'm curious about these frost hardy mangos.... I hope we get to see the day when mangos can be grown way past their cultivation zone....

OK OK growing mangos in Paris may not be possible anytime soon, but hey.... fingers crossed!! lol

[JF]

Interesting -- so his rootstock trees are actually airlayers from some new variety he bred?

Could it be that he's using etiolation instead of airlayering per se to propagate his rootstock.

Etiolation has been succesfully used to propagate avocado rootstocks resistant to salinity and PC accross the from CA, to Spain and South Africa!

This is a very interesting question. I agree with you about etiolation for avocado rootstocks. I believe this is the process that Brokaw Nurseries and other use to generate clonal rootstocks. It is essentially airlayering but I recall reading (awhile ago) that there was etiolation period before the airlayering process which produces a better airlayer. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

I have also always read that mangoes are typically difficult to airlayer. It can and has been done (by members of this forum too), but the success rate is often low. But I think you might be on to something. Maybe an etiolation period could really increase the success rate.

One would point out that this is not the preferred way to propagate a mango tree, because the mangoes grow with very large and deep taproots and an airlayer will obviously not have a taproot. But this can likely be overcome by tailoring a watering schedule and treating it like a shallow rooted tree (more frequent watering) instead of a deep rooted one (infrequent very deep watering). However this means that the airlayered rootstock has to be very salt tolerant because any water salinity will be exacerbated by this watering approach.

Good insights, there is a lot to consider about these trees. Which I admit I am very interested in. Every winter I protect my mango trees with C9 Christmas lights and frost cloth (my winter lows tend to be 28-30 F). But if a mango was bred to have a few more degrees of cold tolerance, it would make a big difference to my growing area.

Hey Starch,


the etiolation technique also called the Froelich technique is indeed used by Browkaw Nurseries. In fact I believe they also perfected it.

As is the case with mangos; having a tap root is be the best option but plants grafted onto clonal rootstock they will eventually develop a strong root system after it's established.

Here's a link to better understand the etiolation technique : http://www.avocadosource.com/WAC4/WAC4_p217.pdf


Does a trees frequently watered need to be more tolerant to salinity? I mean unless you had high levels of salt in your water, I would have thought frequent water would on the contrary wash away any excess of salts?

Anyway, just like the rest of you, I'm curious about these frost hardy mangos.... I hope we get to see the day when mangos can be grown way past their cultivation zone....

OK OK growing mangos in Paris may not be possible anytime soon, but hey.... fingers crossed!! lol

clonal rootstock are too expensive and useless in Socal we get grafted 5 gallons avocado trees for $9.99 at Costco and Home Depot. Or you can graft on your own rootstock:

one year graft Ismael #1 (Cuba West Indian race) on Catalina rootstock holding 6 avocados



two year graft Sir Prize (California hybrid) on a Sir Prize rootstook holding 23 avocados

[Diospyros]

Useless?

I got the impression that heavy clay soils and Phytophtora contaminated soils in SoCal made it impossible to grow avocado trees unless grafted on clonal rootstocks...

OK I may have over exagerrated but I always heard PC was present throughout Cali and going without clonal rootstock was no the best option.

$9,99 a tree?  Me wanna!!!! I paid mine 60€ but then again they were brought in from Spain!

Anyway, re mangoes I'm curious as to whether or not etiolation could work! I'll have to try it sometimes but I only use TA as rootstocks and I can't seem to find any lately. Kent and Keitt are useless IMO

[starch]

Interesting -- so his rootstock trees are actually airlayers from some new variety he bred?

Could it be that he's using etiolation instead of airlayering per se to propagate his rootstock.

Etiolation has been succesfully used to propagate avocado rootstocks resistant to salinity and PC accross the from CA, to Spain and South Africa!

This is a very interesting question. I agree with you about etiolation for avocado rootstocks. I believe this is the process that Brokaw Nurseries and other use to generate clonal rootstocks. It is essentially airlayering but I recall reading (awhile ago) that there was etiolation period before the airlayering process which produces a better airlayer. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

I have also always read that mangoes are typically difficult to airlayer. It can and has been done (by members of this forum too), but the success rate is often low. But I think you might be on to something. Maybe an etiolation period could really increase the success rate.

One would point out that this is not the preferred way to propagate a mango tree, because the mangoes grow with very large and deep taproots and an airlayer will obviously not have a taproot. But this can likely be overcome by tailoring a watering schedule and treating it like a shallow rooted tree (more frequent watering) instead of a deep rooted one (infrequent very deep watering). However this means that the airlayered rootstock has to be very salt tolerant because any water salinity will be exacerbated by this watering approach.

Good insights, there is a lot to consider about these trees. Which I admit I am very interested in. Every winter I protect my mango trees with C9 Christmas lights and frost cloth (my winter lows tend to be 28-30 F). But if a mango was bred to have a few more degrees of cold tolerance, it would make a big difference to my growing area.

Hey Starch,


the etiolation technique also called the Froelich technique is indeed used by Browkaw Nurseries. In fact I believe they also perfected it.

As is the case with mangos; having a tap root is be the best option but plants grafted onto clonal rootstock they will eventually develop a strong root system after it's established.

Here's a link to better understand the etiolation technique : http://www.avocadosource.com/WAC4/WAC4_p217.pdf


Does a trees frequently watered need to be more tolerant to salinity? I mean unless you had high levels of salt in your water, I would have thought frequent water would on the contrary wash away any excess of salts?

Anyway, just like the rest of you, I'm curious about these frost hardy mangos.... I hope we get to see the day when mangos can be grown way past their cultivation zone....

OK OK growing mangos in Paris may not be possible anytime soon, but hey.... fingers crossed!! lol

Diospyros,

Thanks for the confirmation and the link! I will definitely check out the document.

Yes, good question. I should have clarified. My water here is high pH (about 8.0) with lots of dissolved solids, high Sodium and Calcium, etc. So for me I have to be very conscious about my watering schedule. My summers are very hot so I do need frequent waterings (which are not deep), however I need to do a deep flush watering about once a week so that any accumulated salts get flushed from the root zone.

[murahilin]

I can't believe people are believing this crap and actually buying these trees.

[bsbullie]

I can't believe people are believing this crap and actually buying these trees.

Come on now, dont be a Debbie Downer.  With your attitude,  how are we going to promote that special Duval County mango project?

[Patrick]

Incredibly they also can produce oranges from time to time!

https://youtu.be/pkYNBwCEeH4

[JF]

I can't believe people are believing this crap and actually buying these trees.

He claimed that his varieties will be in your grocery stores in 2 years yet he can't join us in our mango taste test in September because he has no fruits.

[barath]

James Agren posted a picture of the delivered trees on Facebook California Rare Fruit Growers and comment; "Thank you Tim Thompson and Maggie Young for delivery! Our CRFG chapter (North County San Diego) is the first customer to receive an order. Eight cold tolerant varieties of mango developed for commercial cultivation in Southern California by Tim Thompson, So Cal Plant Breeders. I'm planting four here in Vista."

Would you be able to paste a link to that post?  I looked for the CRFG Facebook page and didn't find one with a recent update about the trees or any recent photos.  (Or if it's a private Facebook group, could you embed the pictures here?)

[ricshaw]

Would you be able to paste a link to that post?  I looked for the CRFG Facebook page and didn't find one with a recent update about the trees or any recent photos.  (Or if it's a private Facebook group, could you embed the pictures here?)

[JF]

Useless?

I got the impression that heavy clay soils and Phytophtora contaminated soils in SoCal made it impossible to grow avocado trees unless grafted on clonal rootstocks...

If the last two images didn't get the impression out of your head that Socal soil breeds Phytophthora maybe these will. Socal is the Avocado Capital in the USA.....95% of USA grown avocados sold in stores come from Southern California.  Here is my five year old Sir Prize on Topa rootstock

[ricshaw]

I can't believe people are believing this crap and actually buying these trees.

I am not 100% sure Tim said all that "crap".  I "ordered" my tree based on what I heard Tim say at a CRFG presentation.  A $40. gamble.

[JF]

I can't believe people are believing this crap and actually buying these trees.

I am not 100% sure Tim said all that "crap".  I "ordered" my tree based on what I heard Tim say at a CRFG presentation.  A $40. gamble.

ricshaw that's a good point. What does Sheehan mean by *this crap*? Is it the reverse engendering to isolate the cold gene? or is it the selection process of planting out 7,000 seeds? This sounds like what Zill does and I never heard him say it's crap   Tim is a dreamer just like Zill the only thing I knock him on is his emphasis on cold hardy mango he should focus on taste.... that being said, he need to get these mangos to our tasting ASAP.

[bsbullie]

I can't believe people are believing this crap and actually buying these trees.

I am not 100% sure Tim said all that "crap".  I "ordered" my tree based on what I heard Tim say at a CRFG presentation.  A $40. gamble.

ricshaw that's a good point. What does Sheehan mean by *this crap*? Is it the reverse engendering to isolate the cold gene? or is it the selection process of planting out 7,000 seeds? This sounds like what Zill does and I never heard him say it's crap   Tim is a dreamer just like Zill the only thing I knock him on is his emphasis on cold hardy mango he should focus on taste.... that being said, he need to get these mangos to our tasting ASAP.

Ahhh, not quite the same.  The history of what has been produced by the Zill family is well documented and proven.

As for Tim, I am guessing what Sheehan is referring to is "proven" cold hardiness...and to go one step further, as you said, ultimately taste is more important.  Who cares if you can grow a Tommy Atkins type (based on taste), or worse, in colder climates.  There will be no greater demand for the fruit if it is equal to or worse in taste and higher in price (which it would almost surely be if produced in the US) than what is already available in the commercial markets.

[ricshaw]

ricshaw that's a good point. What does Sheehan mean by *this crap*? Is it the reverse engendering to isolate the cold gene? or is it the selection process of planting out 7,000 seeds? This sounds like what Zill does and I never heard him say it's crap   Tim is a dreamer just like Zill the only thing I knock him on is his emphasis on cold hardy mango he should focus on taste.... that being said, he need to get these mangos to our tasting ASAP.

And there lies the problem IMO; Most mango enthusiasts on this forum are focused on "taste".  Tim's focus is "commercial" growers in California.

The main thing I got out of hearing Tim speak is the selection process from 1000s of mango seedlings.

Rob, Tim feels that his selection process from hundreds of seedlings proves some cold hardiness.. . and it is BS to suggest that his trees produce fruit that taste like Tommy Atkins.

edit:  I would like to add that nobody is suggesting, IMO, that Tim is at the same level as Zill.

[bsbullie]

ricshaw that's a good point. What does Sheehan mean by *this crap*? Is it the reverse engendering to isolate the cold gene? or is it the selection process of planting out 7,000 seeds? This sounds like what Zill does and I never heard him say it's crap   Tim is a dreamer just like Zill the only thing I knock him on is his emphasis on cold hardy mango he should focus on taste.... that being said, he need to get these mangos to our tasting ASAP.

And there lies the problem IMO; Most mango enthusiasts on this forum are focused on "taste".  Tim focus is "commercial" growers in California.

The main thing I got out of hearing Tim speak is the selection process from 1000s of mango seedlings.

Rob, Tim feels that his selection process from hundreds of seedlings proves some cold hardiness.. . and it is BS to suggest that his trees produce fruit that taste like Tommy Atkins.

The BS is your thinking I am against this whole thing.  I am not against it, I just question it.  Big difference.  I also didn't bring up taste, Frank did, although I question it also.  I know this is what appears to be a step in a new direction for California with respect to mangoes however I believe some have their doubts. 

Who is going to care for a cold hardy "commercial" mangoes if taste is comprimised (personally I don't see any chance of a commercial mango grove in colder cliemates being warranted, successful or even that profitable but I could be wrong).  Keep in mind, most of the US commercial mangoes come from outside the US, and that is with Florida being a great mango producing State.  Again, the cost to produce something in the US is far greater than to produce in other countries.  Hence one reason Gary Zill has put more focus now on growing and experimenting/researching for commercial purposes in Costa Rica.  Costs are less, therefore the cost to produce is less, giving a greater profit margin which is what it is all about with a commercial producer.  The main difference is that Gary is focusing on commercial production with taste quality, a far better trait than a questionable cold hardiness.

[ricshaw]

The BS is your thinking I am against this whole thing.  I am not against it, I just question it.  Big difference.  I also didn't bring up taste, Frank did, although I question it also.  I know this is what appears to be a step in a new direction for California with respect to mangoes however I believe some have their doubts. 

Who is going to care for a cold hardy "commercial" mangoes if taste is comprimised (personally I don't see any chance of a commercial mango grove in colder cliemates being warranted, successful or even that profitable but I could be wrong).  Keep in mind, most of the US commercial mangoes come from outside the US, and that is with Florida being a great mango producing State.  Again, the cost to produce something in the US is far greater than to produce in other countries.  Hence one reason Gary Zill has put more focus now on growing and experimenting/researching for commercial purposes in Costa Rica.  Costs are less, therefore the cost to produce is less, giving a greater profit margin which is what it is all about with a commercial producer.  The main difference is that Gary is focusing on commercial production with taste quality, a far better trait than a questionable cold hardiness.

The BS was mentioning taste like Tommy Atkins.  It would be great if Californians could buy great tasting mangos from Florida, but no, we get mangos, picked too green, from South of the border.
If Californians can buy locally grown avocados and citrus, why not mangos?

[Bush2Beach]

The BS is your thinking I am against this whole thing.  I am not against it, I just question it.  Big difference.  I also didn't bring up taste, Frank did, although I question it also.  I know this is what appears to be a step in a new direction for California with respect to mangoes however I believe some have their doubts. 

Who is going to care for a cold hardy "commercial" mangoes if taste is comprimised (personally I don't see any chance of a commercial mango grove in colder cliemates being warranted, successful or even that profitable but I could be wrong).  Keep in mind, most of the US commercial mangoes come from outside the US, and that is with Florida being a great mango producing State.  Again, the cost to produce something in the US is far greater than to produce in other countries.  Hence one reason Gary Zill has put more focus now on growing and experimenting/researching for commercial purposes in Costa Rica.  Costs are less, therefore the cost to produce is less, giving a greater profit margin which is what it is all about with a commercial producer.  The main difference is that Gary is focusing on commercial production with taste quality, a far better trait than a questionable cold hardiness.

The BS was mentioning taste like Tommy Atkins.  It would be great if Californians could buy great tasting mangos from Florida, but no, we get mangos, picked too green, from South of the border.
If Californians can buy locally grown avocados and citrus, why not mangos?

Let's squash that myth right now.
We can buy great tasting Mango's from Florida in California. I've posted this link several times in different areas of the forum trying to figure out why this is the ONLY place online for FL Mango's with no real response.  $5 a pound delivered.
http://www.localharvest.org/fresh-mango-C13410

California King Salmon is $25 a pound right now so it's all relative in regards to people saying fruit price per pound is too expensive .

[Bush2Beach]

ricshaw that's a good point. What does Sheehan mean by *this crap*? Is it the reverse engendering to isolate the cold gene? or is it the selection process of planting out 7,000 seeds? This sounds like what Zill does and I never heard him say it's crap   Tim is a dreamer just like Zill the only thing I knock him on is his emphasis on cold hardy mango he should focus on taste.... that being said, he need to get these mangos to our tasting ASAP.

And there lies the problem IMO; Most mango enthusiasts on this forum are focused on "taste".  Tim's focus is "commercial" growers in California.

The main thing I got out of hearing Tim speak is the selection process from 1000s of mango seedlings.

Rob, Tim feels that his selection process from hundreds of seedlings proves some cold hardiness.. . and it is BS to suggest that his trees produce fruit that taste like Tommy Atkins.

edit:  I would like to add that nobody is suggesting, IMO, that Tim is at the same level as Zill.

Then why do 100% of his sales appear to be to "back yard " growers?
I don't think commercial enterprises would put up with the Island time "soon come" delivery date, might be a sign to them it's not as commercially viable as advertised.

[Patrick]

Most the mangoes sold here in Florida are from other places. Its really not a major commercial crop here.  Not to repeat the arguments again but even planting 25000 random seeds could not isolate cold tolerance.  The breeding program that Zill has used for the creation of the new mangoes wasn't a random planting.  Selective breeding was used to cross particular genetics.  Known progeny with traits of value were crossed in multiples with selections taken on those offspring that met certain criteria.  They use intentional cross pollination to create new varieties using many different decades old known quality varieties.  It would be more likely in the very slim chance a "cold hardy" variety was found that it was identified in a seedling planting of the many million random attempts in cooler areas.

[bsbullie]

The BS is your thinking I am against this whole thing.  I am not against it, I just question it.  Big difference.  I also didn't bring up taste, Frank did, although I question it also.  I know this is what appears to be a step in a new direction for California with respect to mangoes however I believe some have their doubts. 

Who is going to care for a cold hardy "commercial" mangoes if taste is comprimised (personally I don't see any chance of a commercial mango grove in colder cliemates being warranted, successful or even that profitable but I could be wrong).  Keep in mind, most of the US commercial mangoes come from outside the US, and that is with Florida being a great mango producing State.  Again, the cost to produce something in the US is far greater than to produce in other countries.  Hence one reason Gary Zill has put more focus now on growing and experimenting/researching for commercial purposes in Costa Rica.  Costs are less, therefore the cost to produce is less, giving a greater profit margin which is what it is all about with a commercial producer.  The main difference is that Gary is focusing on commercial production with taste quality, a far better trait than a questionable cold hardiness.

The BS was mentioning taste like Tommy Atkins.  It would be great if Californians could buy great tasting mangos from Florida, but no, we get mangos, picked too green, from South of the border.
If Californians can buy locally grown avocados and citrus, why not mangos?

Let's squash that myth right now.
We can buy great tasting Mango's from Florida in California. I've posted this link several times in different areas of the forum trying to figure out why this is the ONLY place online for FL Mango's with no real response.  $5 a pound delivered.
http://www.localharvest.org/fresh-mango-C13410

California King Salmon is $25 a pound right now so it's all relative in regards to people saying fruit price per pound is too expensive .

While some people/private growers  may ship mangoes from Florida to California, I believe "legally" it is prohibited.  Somebody correct me if I am wrong.