The Tropical Fruit Forum
Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: Ilya11 on May 20, 2019, 10:25:58 AM
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This year, after 6 years from crossing two of my Ichangstars (5starcitrumeloXCitrus Ichangensis are abundantly flowering for the first time
1232061:
(https://a.radikal.ru/a25/1905/16/d8f7d7c62be0.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
(https://d.radikal.ru/d21/1905/3d/71390e7fa833.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
The first flower has 8 petals, fruity perfume, close to that of ichangensis
Another hybrid- 1232060 had one non complete flower last year, but hundreds of flower buds now
(https://b.radikal.ru/b10/1905/6d/612eeba7dcfc.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
(https://a.radikal.ru/a15/1905/e7/a640a04aa26a.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
I pollinated the castrated flowers of 5star with C.ichangensis pink flower clone from Baches nursery in the spring of 2012 and around 70 zygotic seedlings were planted in the ground next year.
Around two dozens survived without protection, the two that bloom now had no damage during this period.
Interestingly, that while 1232061 is blooming on most of its branches, the flowers on 1232060 appear on the lower part, on twigs with nod count almost two times less those at the top of the bush.
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Excellent work, Ilya! I look forward to seeing the fruit.
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This will be very exciting. I am looking forward to see what the fruit eventually looks like. Might be several more years.
I would encourage you to possibly take some cuttings and grow them inside of a greenhouse too, just to speed the growth up.
(and in case you have an unexpectedly bad Winter)
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I have a C. ichangensis X Citrumelo from Adavo (Adam Bajer) from Chech Rep. But it is trifoliate. Yours is not oviously.
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It's good to see flowering and fruiting trees, in contrast to beat up seedlings in recovery!
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(and in case you have an unexpectedly bad Winter)
I shall be much pleased to have such winter ;).
Too many seedlings in the ground.
Actually, quite sure that with so many flowers there will be some fruits this autumn. Both shrubs are quite big, around 2 m high with solid stems.
Leaves are thick and leathery. 61st is monofoliate, while 60 occasionally has some bifoliate leaves.
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I have a C. ichangensis X Citrumelo from Adavo (Adam Bajer) from Chech Rep. But it is trifoliate. Yours is not oviously.
Robert,
Are you sure? They have only citrumeloXYuzu in their catalogue, not an ichangensis hybrid.
Is your plant mature fruiting one?
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You are right. I was misleaded by the dark purple colour of thje flush which reminded me strongly of my C. ichangensis IVIA. Same colour but trifoliate leaves. But it is CitrumeloXYuzu. Do you have it? Do you want it ;) ?
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I read on Czech forum that it is not yet fruiting. Actually have around 50 seedlings of 5starXYuzu, some are extremely vigorous.
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and what about the colour of the flush of your 5StarXYuzu seedlings? Purple or green?
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The leaves are green and predominantly monofoliate.
(https://d.radikal.ru/d37/1905/de/63aa48f3c4df.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
This is a strongest one (1420025), grafted on 5star roots in 2016 it is now approaching 4 m in height.
(https://d.radikal.ru/d21/1905/08/60c43c7a7448.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
I wonder what Adavo plant could be? Even in pure Yuzu reddish tint is apparent only on the young shoots and under a strong sun illumination.
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That's why I thought of C. ichangensis IVIA. My IVIA has dark purple flush. But it is marked YuzuXCitrumelo
Your new hybrids are very impressive. It is one of these that carries flowers?
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Do you bend the top to induce it to bloom?
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Robert and Mikkel,
Yes, I bend the top of this hybrid for the induction of mature wood flush, it has not flowered yet.
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Beautiful tree and nice work Ilya! Congrats. I'm interested to see how the fruit turn out.
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Thank you, the fruits start to form now, hope they will be ripe before the winter.
As of today: 1232061
(https://a.radikal.ru/a10/1905/cc/d4490d9df2a2.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
(https://d.radikal.ru/d00/1905/a2/aeb1ce1ea818.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
1232060
(https://c.radikal.ru/c24/1905/0b/afd5897ac03e.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
(https://c.radikal.ru/c05/1905/7e/91d58070a908.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
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Are you already doing cross pollination with it?
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For the moment, just a back cross to 5star
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Awesome job! I have always thought that a citrumelo X ichangensis would be the best bet for a hardy lemon type looking fruit. I am very excited for you and wait for your evaluation on the fruit after ripening!
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We shall see in the autumn 😊
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and, has the fruit ripened yet?
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and, has the fruit ripened yet?
http://citrusgrowersv2.proboards.com/thread/355/ichangstars (http://citrusgrowersv2.proboards.com/thread/355/ichangstars)
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Aha, Thanks.
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This autumn I am able to compare fruits from four siblings of my 5starXC.Ichangensis cross of 2012 (Ichangstars)
First flowers of 123270:
(https://i.postimg.cc/75gHCs9P/20230527-Ichangstar70.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75gHCs9P)
This plant has the largest leaves , grow upright and is particularly strong.
123252 has been abundantly flowering already to three years,
(https://i.postimg.cc/7bsMcXgL/20210607-123252.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7bsMcXgL)
but only now was able to keep one fruit till maturity.
The plant has a spreading growth and is only partly evergreen, most leaves disappear late December.
Another variety: 123202 had first flower and one fruit last year. Now it is bearing few dozens of fully ripe fruits.
My first hybrid of this series 123260 (Ichangstar60) bear the fruits every season since 2019, I have chosen the largest of its fruits for comparison:
(https://i.postimg.cc/phg8WckQ/20231106-121305txt.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/phg8WckQ)
The fruit of 123270 was fully ripe by the middle of October, it dropped to ground today, that of 123252 has still some green taint, the rest are fully colored but still are attached to the branches.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R6Cp1hzp/20231106-Ichangstar-compare.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6Cp1hzp)
All fruits do not have any poncirus aftertaste nor internal oils, the most aromatic is 123202, followed by 123252 and 123260, they have different fragrance notes. But 123270 has only a very weak scent. Its taste is the best, very juicy soft fruit, almost no bitterness, acid like lemon, 10°Brix, weight 80g.
Fruit of 123202 is also soft and contains a lot of juice, but it is rather bitter and very acidic.
All these plants were in ground since 2012, non protected and never had any winter damage.
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Hello Ilya, congratulation to your post, very interesting and informative.
Very nice to see the success of your long time breeding project.
So your 123270 seems to be a very good result, extremely frosthardy,
tasty, not to seedy and early naturity.
Very very good, chapeau.
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Are you able to maybe tell us something about the comparison in fruit quality, when compared to the Citrumelo parent? Or compared with other cold hardy hybrids? Do you prefer the Ichangstar, or do you have other hybrids (common hybrids or others that you made) that you still prefer?
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Excellent, Ilya clear difference in appearance, are you going to test for Zygotic embryony?
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It seems that they are probably more hardy than 5star that drops its leaves under strong winter winds with negative temperatures.
They ripen earlier than their citrumelo parent, more or less at the same time that C.ichangensis clones that I have, although they flower two weeks after 5star. That could be advantageous when sudden spring freeze is common.
They lack the internal oils and a hint of poncirus aftertaste that is perceptible in 5star .
Nature of bitter taste of 5star and these hybrids is probably different. The bitterness of the ripe 5star juice when kept in the freezer overnight can be completely eliminated, while that of Ichangstars is still there. On the other hand, bitterness of 113270 is much less than that of grapefruit.
The perception of acidity of these Ichangstar is certainly less than in 5star juice that is sharply soar.
The disadvantage is the number and volume of seeds, although 123270 does have more juice than fully ripe 5star. Its size although variable, is ~30% less than the size of 5star fruits.
5star has unique , original fragrance, while I do not feel any aroma in 123270 fruits.
They are acid citrus that could be used as hardy lemon substitute for juice, curd and other culinary preparations.
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Excellent, Ilya clear difference in appearance, are you going to test for Zygotic embryony?
Yes, I will for new hybrids, 123260 is zygotic.
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A high seed count zygotic parent may be desirable if it's eventual progeny have a lower count. Do you have any specific breeding partners in mind for further breeding projects?
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Up no now I have only one sweet hardy hybrid: 5starXKeraji and concentrate my efforts on its crosses.
It has high fertility, partenocarpy and self-incompatibility. Seeds from cross-pollination are zygotic.
It is sub-acid even when green, but unfortunately fully ripens quite late, around Christmas time when usually we have quite frosty weather.
Also its fruits are rather small.
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Was 5 star or Keraji the female parent for that cross?
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Was 5 star or Keraji the female parent for that cross?
5star
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How does the cold hardiness of your selection 5starxkeraji compare to that of keraji?
What are your plans for increasing the size of the fruits?
Are there any siblings from the original cross that could be used as breeding partners?
5starXkeraji really fascinates me.
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Keraji is probably the hardiest sweet mandarin. It can be grown at my place without protection, but once in three years has some leaf/twig damage.
I have a few dozens of survivals from 5starXKeraji cross out of ~100 zygotic seedlings. They are in ground since 2012 and were never damaged
Only two fruited up to now. Staraji 55 is the best in quality, another one- Staraji07 has small sour fruits that also mature late in the season.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d7fr30pp/20221204-185157.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/d7fr30pp)
This spring I made some crosses of Staraji55 with Dunstan and Morton in hope to increase the fruit size and with Mapo and XieShan to introduce earlier maturity.
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Thanks for the reply.
I didn't know that only two had flowered at this point. That isn't many. That is quite a long juvenile period that they have.
Those sound like some good crosses that you made, thanks for sharing!
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"Up no now I have only one sweet hardy hybrid: 5starXKeraji and concentrate my efforts on its crosses.
It has high fertility, partenocarpy and self-incompatibility. Seeds from cross-pollination are zygotic."
Thank you for the info! Up to now I thought it was polyembryonic and largely useless as a mother plant. My one has now fruits for the first year. They are still small and green. I pollinated with my best Poncirus ("Poncirus Till #1").
By the why, I have a nice well growing seedling of Dunstan x C. ichangensis. There is a weaker growing other one, also. Dunstan seems to be quite usefull as a mother plant, also. Changsha x Dunstan was also successfull. And Poncirus [mainly Nikita and similar clone of Karel] x Batumi resulted in a number of hybrids.
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My Dunstan (from Andy Voss seed) is probably 100 % nucellar ( seedlings look like identical).
Till, the first leaves on the stem of your F1 seedlings, are they arranged in alternate ( like those of poncirus) or opposite way?
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Ilya, they are alternately arranged like in Poncirus. But subsequent leaves show some differences to Poncirus. It is, however, a problem to recognize all hybrids after one year because leaves of pure Poncirus also show some variation. I am not sure yet what seedlings of Poncirus x Batumi Citrumelo are hybrids. I am only sure that some are hybrids. Some are also a bit more vigorious than the rest. I suppose that things will be clearer next year when hybrids will develop bigger leaves. Even Poncirus x Chandler has leaves at the moment not much bigger than Poncirus leaves.
My experience in general is that Poncirus hybrids have their first leaves - or better say "preleaves - in the fashion of pure Poncirus, i. e. alternately arranged. But often they are a bit bigger than in pure Poncirus. Sometimes seedlings have two pairs of paired leaves in alternate position to each other while Citrus has only one pair and Poncirus none at all.
To make it more puzzling: Seedlings of Limequat Tavares often have alternately arranged first leaves without any Poncirus influence. Not to speak of Australian varieties... I usually try to gather indications for hybrid origin: The form of the leaves, vigour, even leaf edge or squarrose leaf edge etc.
What regards my Dustan x C. ichangensis - hybrids, the matter was more easy. I had seedlings with trifoliate leaves like Dunstan and two seedlings with only some trifoliate leaves, very broad petioles and elongante leaves. One of them was two times more vigorious than the rest. My Dunstan is still small. I had only one fruit with few seeds. So a good percentage of hybrids these two seedlings.
The Changsha x Dunstan hybrids have Changsha as mother plant, so trifoliate leaves were a clear sign of hybrid nature.
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Thank you. What was a source of your Dunstan?
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I have my Dunstan Citrumelo from Mikkel who has it from somebody who received it from the US. I have asked Mikkel who that exactly was.
Fruit taste of my Dunstan is quite good. No off-flavours but sticky substance in the fruit and sour. From the outside a typical citrumelo.
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Till,
This is not related to this post but I wanted to say that I have a large FD tree (old, 30yrs) and I never tasted the juice since the first time I tried the juice years ago and it was really bad, hard to drink any of it. But this year, a neighbor asked if he could have the juice from the FD fruits (100 fruits) for his mixed drink so I squeezed the fruits for my seeds and gave him his juice. I asked a person who was working on my kitchen remodel to try it and tell me if it is terrible or super sour. He said it was fine, he could eat the flesh or drink the juice like lemon or lime. I tried a few fruits, and he was right, it was not bad tasting. So my question is, why did my FD fruits taste better now than years ago?
I do have two types of FD on my tree, the original rootstock tree and the branches I grafted with the UCR/CCPP budwood:
VI-383 FLYING DRAGON TRIFOLIATE (CRC 3330A)
VI-397 HIRYU FLYING DRAGON TRIFOLIATE (CRC 3882)
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You have become older and lost taste :). I do not know, what makes the difference. It is also difficult for me to compare this year at my home with last year. This year was more wet and spring more cold. But is that the difference? I doubt it because my plant grow in a glasghouse where I can controll the climate more or less.
I still think that poncirus taste is basically determined by genetics. It seems, however, that taste is to some degree also determined by environmental factors. I also see that the nice smell of the fruits gets more intense when you store them for a while indoors in the warmth.
And then, as I use to say: You can make a pretty good lemonade from almost every Poncirus if you let the juice stand in an open glas for some hours. Perhaps overripe fruits are also much better than just ripe ones. Spekulative... We need tests.
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I agree Your taste buds have died.
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Haha, yes I'm old now, but I don't think my taste buds are that bad or gone. I can still taste the difference between a cheap wine and a very good wine (my wife tells me) and I'm not a wine drinker.
Till, you may be correct about the ripeness of the fruits. All of my 100+ fruits were not picked off the tree, but instead I waited until they started to fall off the tree and then immediately collected them that day. I would check each day and pick up any fruit that fell off my tree so that may be the reason it did not have that strong nasty taste I did not like before.
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It’s not unusual for fruit to improve as a tree ages.
I have found they make a perfectly acceptable jelly. Basically tastes like lemon.
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Ilya, Mikkel says that he has my Dunstan from a certain Gunnar via a German forum. According to our email correspondence from 2019/20 it is not the Dunstan Mikkel got from you.