The Tropical Fruit Forum

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Triloba Tracker on July 02, 2018, 11:48:03 AM

Title: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triloba Tracker on July 02, 2018, 11:48:03 AM
I have a couple potted trees that have been grown in Al's Gritty Mix.
I want to plant them in the ground - would there be issues just planting with whatever Mix remains intact around the roots, or should I estentially bare-root the plant?
I was concerned about the radical soil differential by having essentially gravel around the root ball and then native soil around, which has a fair amount of clay.


Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: spaugh on July 02, 2018, 02:41:29 PM
No need to remove the potting soil.  Would do more harm than good.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triloba Tracker on July 02, 2018, 04:03:11 PM
No need to remove the potting soil.  Would do more harm than good.
Even though it’s gravel, Turface, and pine bark? Nothing even close to soil (except at a molecular level) LOL
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: boxturtle on July 03, 2018, 01:03:57 AM
what type of trees? generally you don't want to disturb the rootball like spaugh said you better off just putting into the  ground with the mix...the mix won't do it any harm if anything it might encourage  your tree to root out more. 
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triloba Tracker on July 03, 2018, 06:38:54 AM
what type of trees? generally you don't want to disturb the rootball like spaugh said you better off just putting into the  ground with the mix...the mix won't do it any harm if anything it might encourage  your tree to root out more.
Thanks! I can see what you’re saying.
These are asimina triloba (pawpaw) trees which, according to most literature, really don’t like their roots disturbed.
It’s a hard call...
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: ScottR on July 03, 2018, 10:49:24 AM
Triloba, i would cut you pot's in a way that you can sent them into planting hole a carefully remove cut pot from your tree's and have native soil around to stabilize root ball! You right paw paw hate to have there roots disturbed!
Good luck ;)
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 06, 2018, 12:29:34 PM
If there's root spin out, take the tree out and score/cut top to bottom 1/2" deep 4 times around the rootball.  This will break up the spin out and induce fibrous branching.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: TNAndy on November 06, 2018, 12:53:38 PM
Remember to dig a hole three times the diameter of the rootball of the tree.  I think mixing half soil and half container mix and using that for the fill dirt is a good idea.  That way, you won't have as much of a barrier to root growth.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 08, 2018, 07:49:52 AM
Remember to dig a hole three times the diameter of the rootball of the tree.  I think mixing half soil and half container mix and using that for the fill dirt is a good idea.  That way, you won't have as much of a barrier to root growth.

Quite the opposite if in clay.  You will not only have an artificially created barrier (roots will stay confined to the hole) but the tree will soon rot, drown.  Never amend backfill.  https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/soil-amendments.pdf

Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triloba Tracker on November 08, 2018, 09:13:31 AM
Yep, definitely not gonna do that

I think I’ll probably just let come what may with these seedlings- whatever gritty mix falls off will fall off, what remains will be going into the ground.

Though I have barerooted and repotted Asimina triloba seedlings before with no outright casualties. It’s possible it stunted them a bit.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triphal on November 08, 2018, 09:58:50 AM
1. It is better you plant them in the spring. 2. Plant them closer about 4 feet from each other. 3. Needs full to partial sunlight after about 4 years. Till then you have to use protect from direct sunlight. 4. Dig 3 feet x 3 feet square and 3 feet deep two holes. 5. Mix the dug out soil with 1/3 of it's quantity with some compost of your choice. *Please note that Pawpaw plants like mild acidic soil. 6.Thoroughly water the hole day before planting 7. Fill the hole with the dug up mixed soil and plant your container plant without disturbing the roots. ** Do not forget that they have long tap root!. 8. Make sure you plant it about 2 inches above the ground level. 9. Use two 6 to 8 feet long wooden or metal stakes on either side for temporary support. 9. Press the soil tamp gently so that there are no major air pockets. 10. Gently water it till it is fully wet. 11.Taper some extra garden soil from the trunk down to 4 feet to the ground level like a mound. 12. Mulch the collected garden leaves. 13. Six 8 feet metal posts covering 8 x 4 feet area to cover for shade. This you need for about 4 years. 14. DO NOT PUT any fertilizer while planting and the first 2 - 3 years. This is my personal experience with Pawpaw. I have 3 grafted trees this way and they have been yielding about 1000 ( thousand ) fruits annually! Planted it for wild life. Only deer and racoons get to it.
***Our plants are 3 miles away from a river bank and about 300 feet above the river bank level. Our deep water table is around 100 feet but we keep the plants well hydrated through the surface roots.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triloba Tracker on November 08, 2018, 10:18:01 AM
Thanks for the info, Triphal - i am good with how to grow Asimina triloba - my question was not really specific to this species.

It was more about the wisdom of planting "gritty mix" in the ground. Gritty mix is a soil-less mix of crushed granite, calcined clay (Turface), and screened pine bark.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 08, 2018, 10:28:59 AM
This is my "gritty mix", tractor style - builder's sand, peat moss, compost, vermiculite or perlite, blood meal, pine bark.....whatever I have stockpiled outside and in the barn.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yWs1HmLd/Soil.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWs1HmLd)

You guys busting your asses with shade cloth and such can shade in less than a minute with a spray of Surround, cheap too.

http://www.novasource.com/en/products/surround (http://www.novasource.com/en/products/surround)
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triphal on November 08, 2018, 10:34:01 AM
Thanks. Completely missed your query on 'gritty Mix'!
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triloba Tracker on November 08, 2018, 10:50:52 AM
You guys busting your asses with shade cloth and such can shade in less than a minute with a spray of Surround, cheap too.

http://www.novasource.com/en/products/surround (http://www.novasource.com/en/products/surround)

Very interesting - never heard of Surround. I have heard of painting trunks to prevent southwest injury in the winter, but this sounds like it could be useful for sunscald prevention on fruit.

Asimina triloba seems to only need shade for a short period, then thrives in full sun. But fruit can be subject to sunburn (like most anything, i suppose).
Will keep this product in mind - thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: hawkfish007 on November 08, 2018, 11:03:35 AM
Remember to dig a hole three times the diameter of the rootball of the tree.  I think mixing half soil and half container mix and using that for the fill dirt is a good idea.  That way, you won't have as much of a barrier to root growth.

Quite the opposite if in clay.  You will not only have an artificially created barrier (roots will stay confined to the hole) but the tree will soon rot, drown.  Never amend backfill.  https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/soil-amendments.pdf

Any advice for soil that is completely dead? I would like to use native soil when planting but after looking at the soil I am leaning toward mixing it with worm castings at 50:50 ratio.

This is what I dug up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nCs8HJWT/IMG-3810.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nCs8HJWT)

Standing water after 5 days, I dug the hole even bigger and mixed native soil with cactus soil amendment.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2q0TbqbW/IMG-3809.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2q0TbqbW)
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: hawkfish007 on November 08, 2018, 11:06:49 AM
Remember to dig a hole three times the diameter of the rootball of the tree.  I think mixing half soil and half container mix and using that for the fill dirt is a good idea.  That way, you won't have as much of a barrier to root growth.

Quite the opposite if in clay.  You will not only have an artificially created barrier (roots will stay confined to the hole) but the tree will soon rot, drown.  Never amend backfill.  https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/soil-amendments.pdf

Any advice for soil that is completely dead? I would like to use native soil when planting but after looking at the soil I am leaning toward mixing it with worm castings at 50:50 ratio.

This is what I dug up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nCs8HJWT/IMG-3810.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nCs8HJWT)

Standing water after 5 days, I dug the hole even bigger and mixed native soil with cactus soil amendment.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2q0TbqbW/IMG-3809.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2q0TbqbW)

Edit: this is to plant mango and other subtropical trees in Zone 9B.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: zephian on November 08, 2018, 11:45:02 AM
Remember to dig a hole three times the diameter of the rootball of the tree.  I think mixing half soil and half container mix and using that for the fill dirt is a good idea.  That way, you won't have as much of a barrier to root growth.

Quite the opposite if in clay.  You will not only have an artificially created barrier (roots will stay confined to the hole) but the tree will soon rot, drown.  Never amend backfill.  https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/soil-amendments.pdf

Any advice for soil that is completely dead? I would like to use native soil when planting but after looking at the soil I am leaning toward mixing it with worm castings at 50:50 ratio.

This is what I dug up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nCs8HJWT/IMG-3810.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nCs8HJWT)

Standing water after 5 days, I dug the hole even bigger and mixed native soil with cactus soil amendment.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2q0TbqbW/IMG-3809.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2q0TbqbW)

Edit: this is to plant mango and other subtropical trees in Zone 9B.
I have an area in my yard that looks just as lifeless (Though it drains way better than that....) I tilled it (yeah yeah, soil life destroyed, etc) and layed about 8 inches of mulch on top. Even after two weeks my soil has changed dramatically. I plan on mulching heavily until spring before I even plant here.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triloba Tracker on November 08, 2018, 12:21:32 PM
Zephian - I’d be cautious with overdoing the mulch.
I went gonzo with wood chip mulch in an area for several months, then planted trees and I’m convinced the too-thick mulch suffocated and drowned the trees.

Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: zephian on November 08, 2018, 01:55:48 PM
Zephian - I’d be cautious with overdoing the mulch.
I went gonzo with wood chip mulch in an area for several months, then planted trees and I’m convinced the too-thick mulch suffocated and drowned the trees.
I'll keep your advice in mind and check my soil conditions come spring. I'll be mounding the soil and planting above the ground level pulling back the mulch as I go. My mulch (woodchips/tree trimmings) is very fresh and should break down a couple of inches at least.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: DSotM on November 08, 2018, 08:38:04 PM
Zephian - I’d be cautious with overdoing the mulch.
I went gonzo with wood chip mulch in an area for several months, then planted trees and I’m convinced the too-thick mulch suffocated and drowned the trees.

Same here. Especially with clay, it can keep the soil waterlogged. Lost sapote, papaya, and a mango to this =/

I’m still going to keep the mulch because of how beneficial it is, but I’m just going to water with caution from now on.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: spaugh on November 08, 2018, 08:40:50 PM
The mulch has the opposite effect here.  It helps hold in moisture which my soil needs.  Plants do way better with it than without.  It all comes down to your soil type and your annual rainfall.  If you have heavy clay soil its likely to be a problem with or without the mulch.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: zephian on November 09, 2018, 01:07:06 AM
I'm in california... what is rain? lol...been in a drought for like 10 years up here. (Besides two years ago when a dam nearly broke and threatened to flood my city...)
I have water restrictions and very high water rates in the summer. Ill keep all the moisture I can.
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 10, 2018, 08:05:40 AM
Any advice for soil that is completely dead? I would like to use native soil when planting but after looking at the soil I am leaning toward mixing it with worm castings at 50:50 ratio.

Plant in a raised bed, mound and NEVER amend tight "soils" with anything.  By returning the native "stuff" back to the hole you seal the top against migration of standing water.   You'd be a good candidate for the raised beds I use - RootBuilder.

My Reed avocado is in a 100 gal. bottomless "pot" a raised bed over tight heavy clay.  After it froze back to a stump it grew to 10' X 10' in 7 months, since March.


(https://i.postimg.cc/fV31RjYs/Reed-Oct28-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fV31RjYs)
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 10, 2018, 08:08:24 AM
Zephian - I’d be cautious with overdoing the mulch.
I went gonzo with wood chip mulch in an area for several months, then planted trees and I’m convinced the too-thick mulch suffocated and drowned the trees.

Yep, if you don't have internal drainage you must at least have surface drainage. 
Title: Re: Planting trees grown in Gritty Mix
Post by: Triloba Tracker on April 11, 2019, 10:11:02 PM
This thread had gotten a little off topic, though it was good discussion.

I wanted to close the loop on the original question.

I finally planted the seedlings I had grown in true Al’s Gritty Mix. I was surprised that when unpotting them, the mix stayed totally intact around the roots except a little loss at the very top where it was dry and there were few roots.
This is despite the fact these trees (pawpaw) do not have a typical fibrous root system.

I was very happy with the outcome, since there was little to no root disturbance.

I planted as-is and back filled with native soil. Voila.