The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Pokeweed on August 15, 2019, 08:12:54 AM
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Hi Folks, I'm wondering if and what you employ in this capacity. I have a good example ( I think) of a nurse nitrogen fixer benefitting my figs. I have a row of figs that runs East/ West for about 100 feet. The two bushes on the Eastern end of the row have a mesquite between them and offset to the South a few feet. The Bush closest to the mesquite is about 10 feet tall and 14 feet in diameter. The next bush is about 8 feet tall and 6 feet in diameter. The next is proportionally smaller and all the rest small as well. They all get the same irrigation and feeding.
I initially thought it was the modicum of shade the mesquite affords the figs, and that may be a factor, but now I think it is primarily nitrogen. I have been collecting nitrogen fixers of various types for the last year or so and am planning to interplant them in my fruit rows.
What do you use? Any other examples like mine?
D
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I like to have nitrogen fixers but in my climate i cant have much diversity .Black locusts, Albizzia Jullibrissin is what i have but im trying to acclimate rosewoods from the Dalbergia genus outdoor( momentarely i only have 4 african black wood seedlings) and as a cover crop that grows verry low ,im thinking to plant peanuts between my younger trees in the orchard.Peanuts fix nitrogen ,grow verry low and the flowers look like Pterocarpus trees to wich they are related .Im stil studying to see if the peanuts flowers are good for bees .
Asside mesquites ,you have a nice tree in your area that got my attention ,Ebenopsis Ebano,the Texas ebony.It a nitrogen fixing legume tree and altough not a real ebony or a rosewood its still a valuable tree.Texas persimmon and Ebenopsis Ebano are on my wishlist
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I am using quite a few legumes. For ground cover my main go-to is Mimosa strigillosa. For shorter term ground cover ordinary peanut does well for a year. Longer term Perennial peanut makes a low ground cover. For edible bush yard-long beans(vigna sp) and 2 varieties of cowpeas. For a taller strata I have used Showy Rattlebox (Crotalaria spectabilis) which can go to a 4 foot shrub and can be cut back to regrow. Taller yet and getting into trees I use Leucaena leucocephala, Ice Cream Bean(Inga sp.), Earleaf Acacia (Acacia auriculiformis) and Candlestick cassia(Senna alata). I have some Gliricidia coming along in pots from cuttings but haven't gotten them in the ground yet. For trees in my zone 10-11 climate the best performing trees have been Leucaena and Candlestick cassia both of which grow like weeds and are considered invasive in my area. I control them by heavy pruning before flowers set viable seed.
I consider all of these to be pioneer plants with a function of supporting the main orchard trees as they grow providing some shade, hopefully nitrogen fixing and making prunings to use as mulch. The low ground covers give me a no-mow occupied space between tree rows. Over time I expect to eliminate most of these as the trees mature and dominate the site which is emulating a controlled natural succession like you would see in an ordinary forest.
I'm not sure how some of these would do in your zone, south parts of Houston League city still get some frost.
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I am using quite a few legumes. For ground cover my main go-to is Mimosa strigillosa. For shorter term ground cover ordinary peanut does well for a year. Longer term Perennial peanut makes a low ground cover. For edible bush yard-long beans(vigna sp) and 2 varieties of cowpeas. For a taller strata I have used Showy Rattlebox (Crotalaria spectabilis) which can go to a 4 foot shrub and can be cut back to regrow. Taller yet and getting into trees I use Leucaena leucocephala, Ice Cream Bean(Inga sp.), Earleaf Acacia (Acacia auriculiformis) and Candlestick cassia(Senna alata). I have some Gliricidia coming along in pots from cuttings but haven't gotten them in the ground yet. For trees in my zone 10-11 climate the best performing trees have been Leucaena and Candlestick cassia both of which grow like weeds and are considered invasive in my area. I control them by heavy pruning before flowers set viable seed.
I consider all of these to be pioneer plants with a function of supporting the main orchard trees as they grow providing some shade, hopefully nitrogen fixing and making prunings to use as mulch. The low ground covers give me a no-mow occupied space between tree rows. Over time I expect to eliminate most of these as the trees mature and dominate the site which is emulating a controlled natural succession like you would see in an ordinary forest.
I'm not sure how some of these would do in your zone, south parts of Houston League city still get some frost.
There is one nitrogen fixer in Florida wich is the only rosewood native to USA, Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum or the popular name,the coin vine.Should be a nice plant to add in your collection and a good conversational subject since this is a real Dalbergia thats protected by CITES.I think the wood is red but better avoid talking about its wood on the internet because it could teach poachers.
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After watching the interaction between the figs and mesquite for a few years I decided to try a bunch of different nitrogen fixers. My journey has a really just begun. I have more acacia and cassia seedlings than I can recall at the moment. Same with bauhinias. Texas mountain laurel (Sophia secundiflora) volunteer for me and I plant them where they might help. I have a bunch of eleagnus ready to go out, and a few redbuds (cercis canadensis) and mimosa (albrizzia julibrissin) also. I can't grow gliricidia long term here. I have a few ingas, but they probably will die in a bad winter. Locust trees are invasive at this latitude, but I'm still going to plant some in my orchard. I have some leucaena leucocephala seedlings coming up and want to try l. retusa as well.. If course the peas....pidgeon, partridge etc. I want to try lablab purpurea in the future. D
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Seawalnut - I did a quick search for ebanopsis and found plants, but no seed. We are at the Northern edge of their native range, so I might find a tree to get seed from. I'll let you know. I'm not convinced they are more beneficial than the more common mesquites or huisatches. I have millions of those seeds seasonaly. They are the main reason I have a bulldozer😬. You might investigate redroot (ceanothus herbaceous) and cerocarpus montanus. D
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Coinvine is known to be a nitrogen fixer?
This is a native on the coast here, and especially in the brackish marsh areas. Likes some water, but I believe can tolerate droughty conditions once established. I can't imagine it being used for wood as it never really gets to much size, but good point, just in case. Very easy to find seed, as they seed prolifically and can be found on/near plants and on the beaches. May have to try some out, definitely one that kind of does its own things, sprawling and falling on vegetation in its vicinity, but could be managed if cut back often.
I am using quite a few legumes. For ground cover my main go-to is Mimosa strigillosa. For shorter term ground cover ordinary peanut does well for a year. Longer term Perennial peanut makes a low ground cover. For edible bush yard-long beans(vigna sp) and 2 varieties of cowpeas. For a taller strata I have used Showy Rattlebox (Crotalaria spectabilis) which can go to a 4 foot shrub and can be cut back to regrow. Taller yet and getting into trees I use Leucaena leucocephala, Ice Cream Bean(Inga sp.), Earleaf Acacia (Acacia auriculiformis) and Candlestick cassia(Senna alata). I have some Gliricidia coming along in pots from cuttings but haven't gotten them in the ground yet. For trees in my zone 10-11 climate the best performing trees have been Leucaena and Candlestick cassia both of which grow like weeds and are considered invasive in my area. I control them by heavy pruning before flowers set viable seed.
I consider all of these to be pioneer plants with a function of supporting the main orchard trees as they grow providing some shade, hopefully nitrogen fixing and making prunings to use as mulch. The low ground covers give me a no-mow occupied space between tree rows. Over time I expect to eliminate most of these as the trees mature and dominate the site which is emulating a controlled natural succession like you would see in an ordinary forest.
I'm not sure how some of these would do in your zone, south parts of Houston League city still get some frost.
There is one nitrogen fixer in Florida wich is the only rosewood native to USA, Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum or the popular name,the coin vine.Should be a nice plant to add in your collection and a good conversational subject since this is a real Dalbergia thats protected by CITES.I think the wood is red but better avoid talking about its wood on the internet because it could teach poachers.
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So many nitrogen fixers are serious invasives, definitely nice to find and use some that are native to the area. I have heard of people using wax myrtles and coral bean, and of course, sunshine mimosa is a native that is commonly used as a nitrogen fixing ground cover here; but otherwise they are typically fast growing, pioneer trees, which also seems to match the definition of some of the most severe invasive trees.
Coinvine is known to be a nitrogen fixer?
This is a native on the coast here, and especially in the brackish marsh areas. Likes some water, but I believe can tolerate droughty conditions once established. I can't imagine it being used for wood as it never really gets to much size, but good point, just in case. Very easy to find seed, as they seed prolifically and can be found on/near plants and on the beaches. May have to try some out, definitely one that kind of does its own things, sprawling and falling on vegetation in its vicinity, but could be managed if cut back often.
I am using quite a few legumes. For ground cover my main go-to is Mimosa strigillosa. For shorter term ground cover ordinary peanut does well for a year. Longer term Perennial peanut makes a low ground cover. For edible bush yard-long beans(vigna sp) and 2 varieties of cowpeas. For a taller strata I have used Showy Rattlebox (Crotalaria spectabilis) which can go to a 4 foot shrub and can be cut back to regrow. Taller yet and getting into trees I use Leucaena leucocephala, Ice Cream Bean(Inga sp.), Earleaf Acacia (Acacia auriculiformis) and Candlestick cassia(Senna alata). I have some Gliricidia coming along in pots from cuttings but haven't gotten them in the ground yet. For trees in my zone 10-11 climate the best performing trees have been Leucaena and Candlestick cassia both of which grow like weeds and are considered invasive in my area. I control them by heavy pruning before flowers set viable seed.
I consider all of these to be pioneer plants with a function of supporting the main orchard trees as they grow providing some shade, hopefully nitrogen fixing and making prunings to use as mulch. The low ground covers give me a no-mow occupied space between tree rows. Over time I expect to eliminate most of these as the trees mature and dominate the site which is emulating a controlled natural succession like you would see in an ordinary forest.
I'm not sure how some of these would do in your zone, south parts of Houston League city still get some frost.
There is one nitrogen fixer in Florida wich is the only rosewood native to USA, Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum or the popular name,the coin vine.Should be a nice plant to add in your collection and a good conversational subject since this is a real Dalbergia thats protected by CITES.I think the wood is red but better avoid talking about its wood on the internet because it could teach poachers.
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The coin vine ,wich can also grow into a single stem tree or as a shrub ,its a nitrogen fixer and because its related to these trees ,its protected by CITES.https://youtu.be/N6XT6kWdMRY
Ebenopsis is on my wishlist and i know the seedling for sale on ebay.Cant get it through customs here so im waiting to see when seeds will be available for sale.I dont think its better than mesquites but its still a nice tree to have and fixes nitrogen.
The otther 2 trees,ceanotus sp,and mountain mahogany ,off course i know them.They are interesting but Ebenopsis is much more valuable than them.The only mahogany i grow here is Toona Sinensis ,but its not a nitrogen fixer.Still a nice tree that you can eat the leaves and they are verry tasty.Chinese grow these Toona trees in greenhouses to have fresh leaves in the winter so you get an idea about how good they taste.
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Nitrogen fixers make great nurse trees, longer term mulch trees, ground covers and some of the most beautiful flowers. Something to keep in mind is that not all leguminous plants have the ability to fix nitrogen although it seems most do. Also sometimes the right microbes are not present in the soil to create the exchange with the plant.
I'm using Pinto Peanut, Pigeon Pea, Leucaena, Sesbania, Senna, Inga and Acacia. Looking to add Gliricidia and Flemingia.
Some showy flower species Jade Vine (Strongylodon macrobotrys) , Saraca cauliflora, Cassia javanica, Pride of Burma (Amherstia nobilis)
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Pigeon Pea
I forgot about that one and Jack beans(Canavalia ensiformis) . Pokeweed you could try a row of pigeon peas next to your figs. Plant 4 seeds about 12 inches apart and prune to a bush form they will persist till frost.
The jack beans are good because they grow in a large bush form. I let the jackbeans grow up then bend them over to the ground in different directions to create a medium high bush ground cover. The best part about jackbeans is they don't make twining vines that choke out taller plants. Get the whites seeded variety the red seed tends to vine. I also use velvet beans but they can easily smother plants, great for a field use.
Nodulation on jackbean seedlings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xqwqL8wP/DSC01755.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xqwqL8wP)
Drone view of pigeon pea borders down each side of fruit trees. I have cut these about 6 times. Each time they are pruned hard they release nitrogen.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t169qNTQ/drone-pigeon-peas.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t169qNTQ)
Pigeon peas between pruning:
(https://i.postimg.cc/n92F8VLX/DSC01460.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/n92F8VLX)
Jack bean around banana:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DJmd409T/DSC01457.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJmd409T)
Velvet bean ground cover in open field(note how it is climbing pine tree):
(https://i.postimg.cc/pp19yk2p/DSC01467.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pp19yk2p)
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I find invasive species a bit nonsensical. Pioneer species generally start the succession towards a forest on damaged or bare land. Eventually they make way for longer living taller growing climax species. Biodiversity is improved with all the different species that have made there way around the world in recent times and they are greatly trying to fix all the damage humans are doing.
So many nitrogen fixers are serious invasives
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All of these except 2 pots on the lower part are legume trees as it follows:
African black wood,Dalbergia Melanoxyllon- first 4 pots on the concrete ridge.Has black wood and its the real tree from wich the pharaoh of Egypt walking stick was made.Its the real ebony and persimmons were named ebony by mistake but its convenient since this black wood trees are rosewoods or palisanders.
Acacia Dealbata- the yellow looking seedlings wich arent doing great.Decorative tree.
Pithecellobium Dulce,red fleshed Guamuchil - on the concrete ridge after the yellow acacia.Has nice looking edible fruit,tropical.
Sesbania Punicea- last 2 biggest seedlings.Poisonous ornamental tree that makes beautifull red flowers at young age of 1 or 2 years.
Inga sp- all the pots on the ground except 2 of them.I have an unkniwn specie but edible ,from Costa Rica.They have more than 60 species of Inga there and its hard to tell wich specie it is.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SdLD8Qs/20190817-130151.jpg)
Pterocarpus trees are also legumes that fix nitrogen.They have a red sap wich makes the tree look like its bleeding when its cut.Somme of them have a red wood wich is the most expensive wood in the world.Manny poore people die every year trying to steal Pterocarpus logs .I call it most expensive because of the number of people that get killed.
They are tropical trees but there is one quite cold hardy related specie in South America.Its called Tipuana Tipu and has same red sap and similar looking flowers but doesnt have precious wood like P Santalinus.
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Pokeweed and SeaWalnut have you tried googling temperate nitrogen fixers? This list is top result http://tcpermaculture.blogspot.com/2011/05/plants-nitrogen-fixers.html (http://tcpermaculture.blogspot.com/2011/05/plants-nitrogen-fixers.html) although a walk into your local wilderness identifying trees should introduce you to some that will grow with no attention in your area. Alder, Locust and Russian Olive seem to be popular choices for temperate climates.
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I have a 3 acre forest of black locusts wich are american trees not native to Romania ,but tell a romanian thats not a native tree and will not believe you since i think we are the biggest black locust honey producers in the world.
Where they grow on my land,it is on top of a really tall hill and there my grand grandfather had a cherry orchard wich died of old age and got replaced by black locusts.I leave them as they are,not cutting the trees.It became a real forest and the land there,altough big,its not suitable for farming because the road was transformed into a ravene by rains and its hard to get there on a dirt bike.A tractor would roll over on the hill.
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So much good information! I forgot about Tijuana tipu. Have to research that. I'd never heard of Jack beans, and never thought of coral bean as a nitrogen fixer. They are native here.
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My wife and I are planning on plating Ice Cream Bean, Pigeon Pea, and another one I haven't seen mentioned Cecropia peltata - Yagrumo!!
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Cecropia would be useful to have, but we get a little too cold.
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Cecropia would be useful to have, but we get a little too cold.
Foxxotron lives in the area and has a bunch of tropicals in a greenhouse there including Cecropia.There's a video on youtube from tonygrowsfood.
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Interesting argument, since removing invasives actually gives biodiversity a huge boost. Native ecosystems took a long time to develop, when a couple of bully species come thru and trash that system, it does exactly the opposite of increasing biodiversity.
I find invasive species a bit nonsensical. Pioneer species generally start the succession towards a forest on damaged or bare land. Eventually they make way for longer living taller growing climax species. Biodiversity is improved with all the different species that have made there way around the world in recent times and they are greatly trying to fix all the damage humans are doing.
So many nitrogen fixers are serious invasives
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I recently heard about this new book which discusses the issues of non-native species. It looks like a good read and probably has some new perspectives. The reviews are interesting, including a response by the author to critical comments.
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-War-Invasive-Species-Permaculture/dp/160358563X#customerReviews (https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-War-Invasive-Species-Permaculture/dp/160358563X#customerReviews)
I have one acre covered in invasive trees here in Florida. Brazil pepper, melaleuca and ear acacia. But there is a strong understory of saw palmetto which would ordinarily dominate in my Pine Flatwoods ecosystem. Probably all it needs is a hurricane followed by a dry season fire to revert back. I have thought about planting it in a native species food forest based on what is known about that. The plan would be to establish what *could* have been here in the days of indigenous societies.The area is close to a documented canal which bisected the island when it was headquarters for the Calusa indians when the Spanish arrived. I spoke to some archeologists who can tell me some of the native species they think were grown. However, that is really just a snapshot in time because the coastline of Florida has expanded and contracted, the area was probably alternately exposed/covered by ocean, wiped out by hurricane/fire and who knows?. People have been here off and on so likely there were cultures far different from Calusa before they became established.
We are only 250 miles from Cuba and certainly people from there could have been here bringing anything from their culture. Who knows what the place had 100-200 years before Calusa? Probably nobody. What ws the native vegetation 1000 years before, 3,000 years before, 10,000 years before? Lots to think about.
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Cecropia would be useful to have, but we get a little too cold.
Cecropia, as far as I know not a nitrogen fixer, but a pioneer tree that develops mutualistic relationship with ants.
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Pigeon Pea
I forgot about that one and Jack beans(Canavalia ensiformis) . Pokeweed you could try a row of pigeon peas next to your figs. Plant 4 seeds about 12 inches apart and prune to a bush form they will persist till frost.
The jack beans are good because they grow in a large bush form. I let the jackbeans grow up then bend them over to the ground in different directions to create a medium high bush ground cover. The best part about jackbeans is they don't make twining vines that choke out taller plants. Get the whites seeded variety the red seed tends to vine. I also use velvet beans but they can easily smother plants, great for a field use.
Nodulation on jackbean seedlings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xqwqL8wP/DSC01755.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xqwqL8wP)
Drone view of pigeon pea borders down each side of fruit trees. I have cut these about 6 times. Each time they are pruned hard they release nitrogen.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t169qNTQ/drone-pigeon-peas.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t169qNTQ)
Pigeon peas between pruning:
(https://i.postimg.cc/n92F8VLX/DSC01460.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/n92F8VLX)
Jack bean around banana:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DJmd409T/DSC01457.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJmd409T)
Velvet bean ground cover in open field(note how it is climbing pine tree):
(https://i.postimg.cc/pp19yk2p/DSC01467.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pp19yk2p)
Here is one more for you - Clitoria ternate (Asian pigeonwings). A non aggressive climber and a great nitrogen fixer. Intense blue flowers can be used as a food coloring.
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I will have to check that out, a lot of people preach about "The New Wild. " There are a lot of people that get weird almost religious when they start talking about how invasives are like some misunderstood salvation. I will also say, on the other side, there are a lot of minimally impactful invasives that people yell about which just arent in the same league as some of the ones you named like Brazilian Pepper and Melaleuca.
Personally, I would rather see a native hardwood hammock with all the diversity of native plants and animals than a forest of Brazilian pepper. Sure, bees will make use of Brazilian pepper, but if you think those support a biodiverse ecosystem, well, thats just plain silly.
I recently heard about this new book which discusses the issues of non-native species. It looks like a good read and probably has some new perspectives. The reviews are interesting, including a response by the author to critical comments.
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-War-Invasive-Species-Permaculture/dp/160358563X#customerReviews (https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-War-Invasive-Species-Permaculture/dp/160358563X#customerReviews)
I have one acre covered in invasive trees here in Florida. Brazil pepper, melaleuca and ear acacia. But there is a strong understory of saw palmetto which would ordinarily dominate in my Pine Flatwoods ecosystem. Probably all it needs is a hurricane followed by a dry season fire to revert back. I have thought about planting it in a native species food forest based on what is known about that. The plan would be to establish what *could* have been here in the days of indigenous societies.The area is close to a documented canal which bisected the island when it was headquarters for the Calusa indians when the Spanish arrived. I spoke to some archeologists who can tell me some of the native species they think were grown. However, that is really just a snapshot in time because the coastline of Florida has expanded and contracted, the area was probably alternately exposed/covered by ocean, wiped out by hurricane/fire and who knows?. People have been here off and on so likely there were cultures far different from Calusa before they became established.
We are only 250 miles from Cuba and certainly people from there could have been here bringing anything from their culture. Who knows what the place had 100-200 years before Calusa? Probably nobody. What ws the native vegetation 1000 years before, 3,000 years before, 10,000 years before? Lots to think about.
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My hobby is to colect trees that have the most valuable wood in the world .All of these trees are legumes,nitrogen fixers.
I do it because im an enviromentalist ( professional) and in case they go extinct i could save them.
Im not thinking to grow trees that worth milions of dollars each, to get rich .
Another reason why i like these legume trees its that their seeds germinate easy and it amazes me why trees that are such easy to germinate and grow ,are soo endangered.
A week ago ive seen a video with indian police that has shot and killed 20 poachers stealing Pterocarpus.
I could tell the poachers that died were really poore people and most likely send there by a wealthy mafia boss.Police shot them just so it can get their hands on the logs in order to sell them by themselves(corruption).
Would be less tragedies if they made plantations of these trees and the poachers would become farmers.
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I bought Red Ripper Cowpea as a nitrogen fixer, but the iguana eat them as fast as I can plant it. Now I buy raw peanuts as a ground cover / nitrogen fixer and use the red ripper cowpeas as bait for my traps.
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A lot of people here are actually crazy religious about native only plants. They will poison anything that is not native to a region. The brazillian pepper tree is a pioneer species. It's berries are liked by birds and mammals. It creates thickets in disturbed sites. The birds come in a eat the berries, they spread the seed of other trees. Some of those seeds will be overstory species that could live for hundreds of years, they eventually grow and overtake the brazilian pepper trees that only live for a short time.
I also don't like thickets of a single species but I think people are a little crazy about preserving how things used to be when nature is changing and adapting all the time. I think most introduced plants have a positive impact on the natural system long term but I won't deny some have a negative impact. The African Tulip tree that grows everywhere around here has flowers that poison the native bees.
I will have to check that out, a lot of people preach about "The New Wild. " There are a lot of people that get weird almost religious when they start talking about how invasives are like some misunderstood salvation. I will also say, on the other side, there are a lot of minimally impactful invasives that people yell about which just arent in the same league as some of the ones you named like Brazilian Pepper and Melaleuca.
Personally, I would rather see a native hardwood hammock with all the diversity of native plants and animals than a forest of Brazilian pepper. Sure, bees will make use of Brazilian pepper, but if you think those support a biodiverse ecosystem, well, thats just plain silly.
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Here in North Florida, the best nitrogen fixing tree I've found for interplanting among fruit trees is Enterolobium contortisiliquum. Seedlings are already nodulating at six weeks old. Planted out in our sandy soil, they grow extremely rapidly, with a spreading form. If allowed to grow untrimmed, in ten years the trunk is often so big I can't reach my arms around it.
Their tissues are so full of nitrogen that sometimes when you break open a fallen stick from them, the inside of the stick reeks of ammonia.
In their first few years, these Enterolobium trees cast a light shade which can be helpful for getting some kinds of young fruit trees established (as these N-fixers get bigger they cast denser shade). They're easy to coppice or pollard - if at any point you decide they're getting too big or casting too much shade, just cut them back with a chainsaw. They'll throw out sprouts from the cut point, and you can then cut those sprouts back annually to maintain them fixing nitrogen without excessively shading your fruit trees.
They make lots of pods here, but I only rarely see seedlings pop up on their own. Scarifying seeds is helpful for germinating them, and the rarity of spontaneous seedlings maybe results from the absence of large animals here eating the pods & scarifying the seeds.
During colder winters here, they freeze back partially, then in spring they sprout out from wherever they froze back to. I've seen trees take 15F(-9C), which killed them back to major limbs, but not all the way to the ground. In areas with colder winters, presumably they would freeze to the ground every winter as a dieback perennial.
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Really useful information as always!
We planted peanuts as well and they reseeded themselves for several years. I think they "nitrogened" themselves out. Enterolobuim.... Another one I'll have to try. Awesome!
With all of the non native plants and trees that I have introduced to our place I wonder sometimes if any of them will become invasive over time. The state maintains a list of invasives, but I haven't seen the ones I've brought in on it. Some may not have had a chance to become invasive here before. Several of the fabaceae etc. Like exactly the climate we have (think Australia). Right now my place is overrun with mesquite. We keep about 1/4 of our place mowed down in pasture and senderos cut through at intervals and along fence lines. I'm not sure adding another prosopsis, acacia etc into the mix would really matter. Most of my neighbors use a ton of herbicide to control mesquite. I don't use that stuff. Makes the manure and silage poisonous as well. I have about 500 cubic feet of old cow manure that I would love to use, but it was there when we bought the place and I'm sure has herbicide in it. I'm concerned about what it will eventually do to the ground water.
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As decorative plants i have a few trumpet vines,Campsis Radicans and mimosa tree ,Albizzia Julibrissin.Both plants verry cold hardy nitrogen fixers that bloom all summer long with beautifull flowers.
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certain fungi can remediate herbicides.
https://www.permaculture.co.uk/readers-solutions/using-fungi-clean-pollutants (https://www.permaculture.co.uk/readers-solutions/using-fungi-clean-pollutants)
you could call Paul Stamets company (fungi.com) and tell them the issue...
they might have a suggestion or 2 for you
Really useful information as always!
We planted peanuts as well and they reseeded themselves for several years. I think they "nitrogened" themselves out. Enterolobuim.... Another one I'll have to try. Awesome!
With all of the non native plants and trees that I have introduced to our place I wonder sometimes if any of them will become invasive over time. The state maintains a list of invasives, but I haven't seen the ones I've brought in on it. Some may not have had a chance to become invasive here before. Several of the fabaceae etc. Like exactly the climate we have (think Australia). Right now my place is overrun with mesquite. We keep about 1/4 of our place mowed down in pasture and senderos cut through at intervals and along fence lines. I'm not sure adding another prosopsis, acacia etc into the mix would really matter. Most of my neighbors use a ton of herbicide to control mesquite. I don't use that stuff. Makes the manure and silage poisonous as well. I have about 500 cubic feet of old cow manure that I would love to use, but it was there when we bought the place and I'm sure has herbicide in it. I'm concerned about what it will eventually do to the ground water.
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One useful tree not yet mentioned is Moringa, supplying not just nitrogen but food for humans too.
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About the coin vine from Florida( Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum),it was discovered that the expensive red propolis from Brasil its made from these trees wich grow there also.It has a blood red sap similar to that of Pterocarpus ,wich bees collect to make the propolis.
Studyes shown that this red propolis from the coin vine kills cancerous cells.But the red propolis its too complex for the scientists to understand how it does that and thats why its not officially registered as a med.
A few pictures with Pterocarpus sap and the first one with the bees,its the coin vine,Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLms66yK/propolis-vermelha-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxpMxyn5/downloadfile-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/T32KdznW/32446ae47a4472af5acf8580c1175990.jpg)
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Mokeyfish Moringa does not fix nitrogen
One useful tree not yet mentioned is Moringa, supplying not just nitrogen but food for humans too.
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Casuarina (Australian pine) and other members of Casuarinaceae are known to fix nitrogen although i'm not sure how well the coppice and some are thought to have allelopathic effects although i'm not sure how to true that is. Some species do make good wood also.
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Coin vine (Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum) is definitey not the same thing as the trees in those pictures. Im confused, you said youve read it can grow to be a tree? Ive seen it on the marsh edges of coastal hammocks and on the dunes, but the growth form is more of a falling/sprawling shrub/vine. I have never seen any consistent upright growth on these, though possibly someone could try their hand at staking and treeing it up, I would be curious how well that works.
About the coin vine from Florida( Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum),it was discovered that the expensive red propolis from Brasil its made from these trees wich grow there also.It has a blood red sap similar to that of Pterocarpus ,wich bees collect to make the propolis.
Studyes shown that this red propolis from the coin vine kills cancerous cells.But the red propolis its too complex for the scientists to understand how it does that and thats why its not officially registered as a med.
A few pictures with Pterocarpus sap and the first one with the bees,its the coin vine,Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLms66yK/propolis-vermelha-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxpMxyn5/downloadfile-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/T32KdznW/32446ae47a4472af5acf8580c1175990.jpg)
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Bacteria in the soil. Providing the right habitat/environment for nitrogen fixing bacteria to thrive. By adding small amounts of diverse organic matter and growing out a tall biodiverse living orchard floor will adjust the soil ph and promote clover and nitrogen scavenging herbs like Caesar Weed to grow. Of course you all know that spraying ANY copper, or copper fungicide products and using synthetic fertilizers (pollutants) will kill and starve this bacteria which will interfere with the natural cycling of nutrients which will eventually manifest into plant diseases and nutrient deficiencies like copper, zinc, etc. and pollute our drinking water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILSIatGOXRs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILSIatGOXRs)
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Coin vine (Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum) is definitey not the same thing as the trees in those pictures. Im confused, you said youve read it can grow to be a tree? Ive seen it on the marsh edges of coastal hammocks and on the dunes, but the growth form is more of a falling/sprawling shrub/vine. I have never seen any consistent upright growth on these, though possibly someone could try their hand at staking and treeing it up, I would be curious how well that works.
About the coin vine from Florida( Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum),it was discovered that the expensive red propolis from Brasil its made from these trees wich grow there also.It has a blood red sap similar to that of Pterocarpus ,wich bees collect to make the propolis.
Studyes shown that this red propolis from the coin vine kills cancerous cells.But the red propolis its too complex for the scientists to understand how it does that and thats why its not officially registered as a med.
A few pictures with Pterocarpus sap and the first one with the bees,its the coin vine,Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLms66yK/propolis-vermelha-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxpMxyn5/downloadfile-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/T32KdznW/32446ae47a4472af5acf8580c1175990.jpg)
Only the first picture with the bees its D Ecastaphyllum.The big trees are Pterocarpus .
D Ecastaphyllum can grow as a single stemmed tree ,but would not get that big.Its grows as a vine,shrub or single stemmed tree as manny otther dalbergia sp.
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Of course you all know that spraying ANY copper, or copper fungicide products and using synthetic fertilizers (pollutants) will kill and starve this bacteria which will interfere with the natural cycling of nutrients which will eventually manifest into plant diseases and nutrient deficiencies like copper, zinc, etc. and pollute our drinking water.
Very interesting especially the concept of rolling down the grass and letting legumes dominate as a ground cover and mulch producer. Maybe a little dogmatic about nitrogen fixing bacteria, though. While I hope that ways can be found to grow large scale without chemicals or tillage saying that ANY chemicals will "kill or starve bacteria" just isn't factual. Millions of acres, admittedly degraded, still record very high rhizobial nitrogen fixation using, for instance, glyphosate resistant soybean and probably all manner of chemical inputs, treated seeds, etc.
Here is a story. When I first came to Florida I (paid) consulted with several people to get a head start understanding what I was facing. I knew te place had been regularly mowed and I had identified that it had, at minimum, four well known perennial grasses well established. The worst was torpedo grass. My intent was to plant fruit trees but to do so using the most environmentally friendly way. When I suggested using glyphosate at first to eliminate the grasses so that I could move on, one of the consultants told me that doing so would "kill everything". His best solution was to soak the place with high test vinegar, or keep pigs on the land for a while to eat the grass down. Knowing that conventional farmers regularly document nitrogen fixation that was about all I needed to know from that consultant.
Bottom line is that if we want to promote better ways of farming we need to understand exactly what we are talking about and not oversell. I know of more than one person in my area who tried to plant fruit trees without removing the torpedo grass first. It is growing right up to the tree trunk & they are steadily mowing and got far poorer results than I did by removing the grass and starting fresh. I can show very good nodulation on many of the legumes I have planted even though I used about 4 applications of glyphosate, some slow release fertilizers and micronutrients. This should be my last year using the chemical fertilizer. I am setting up a large scale vermicomposting system fed by homegrown biomass, and will be continuing to make fish emulsion for other minerals not available in my soil.
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@ Pineislander,i would have chose to use the vinegar instead of glyphosate.
Vinegar promotes bacterial blooms because its a fast usable carbon source and its also an organic acid that chelates microelements.
Vinegar seems perfect ,because after it kills the weeds it creates a bacterial bloom wich is desirable so that the weeds get decomposed fast.
Copper is harmfuĺl but if the soil has hhmic acids ,then it gets neutralised fast .And copper sulphate doesnt kills anything,i had made a slurry of copper sulphate and soaked seeds that got mold in it.It didnt killed all the mold,just 90 percent altough the seeds were painted blue from too much copper sulphate .
Amazingly,a weak tea from Cammomile flowers killed 100 percent of the mold so now im using only Cammomille tea instead of copper sulphate.
@ Pokeweed,use the old manure with confidence ,because the humic acid from it makes somme chemical reactions that restores even the most degraded,polluted soils.
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Doesn’t the bacteria bloom messes up the balance, destroys the tree roots, might not give you a net gain?
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Doesn’t the bacteria bloom messes up the balance, destroys the tree roots, might not give you a net gain?
Bacterial bloom its exactly what these nitrogen fixing plants do and its verry similar to spraying vinegar on soil.
These plants dont spray vinegar but sugar .They release into theyr nodules a bit of sugar to feed the bacteria wich in turn it splits the N2 and give it to the plants.
Sugar and vinegar are both carbon sources wich feed bacterias.
By spraying vinegar to kill weeds ,you also cause a bacterial bloom and there are special nitrogen fixing bacterias like Azotobacter wich dont grow on plant nodules but they would be verry happy if you give them somme vinnegar.
5 degree vinegar its equivalent with water that has 5 percent sugar in it .From that you can calculate how much carbon you feed the bacteria and estimate into how much nitrogen it results.Verry little@ 1,2 mg of N from 1 litter bottle of 5 degree vinegar is released by Azotobacter but the big release of N its when the bacteria dies after the bloom.
Compared to Roundup,the vinegar has probably less effect at killing weeds and its more expensive but it also puts somme N into the soil.
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Covering an area of grass with silage tarp or ex billboard vinyl material can work very well. You can also put all kinds of compost and inputs to prepare the soil at the same time. For some grasses it can be a long wait for them to properly rot down. Once the grass is dead and the tarp is removed a thick layer of mulch can replace the tarp.
Another method for less persistent grasses is to lay a thick layer of cardboard then put a growing medium like compost and soil over the top, put desired plants in then heavily mulch.
I agree we shouldn't be dogmatic about the use of any chemicals. Context is key and the constant tillage and constant application of herbicides, fungicides and pesticides are the real issue. I have no doubt that nature goes straight back to doing what it does after an application of glyphosate.
Bottom line is that if we want to promote better ways of farming we need to understand exactly what we are talking about and not oversell. I know of more than one person in my area who tried to plant fruit trees without removing the torpedo grass first. It is growing right up to the tree trunk & they are steadily mowing and got far poorer results than I did by removing the grass and starting fresh. I can show very good nodulation on many of the legumes I have planted even though I used about 4 applications of glyphosate, some slow release fertilizers and micronutrients. This should be my last year using the chemical fertilizer. I am setting up a large scale vermicomposting system fed by homegrown biomass, and will be continuing to make fish emulsion for other minerals not available in my soil.
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@ Pineislander,i would have chose to use the vinegar instead of glyphosate.
You probably would have failed. Acetic acid is a contact defoliant with no residual or systemic action. Torpedo grass has a network of roots & can go down 12 inches. You would need how many thousands of gallons to saturate an acre of soil that deep. That is why it took 4 applications glyphosate , some tillage and rhizome raking there was still some left and a few criminals still poke their heads up 3 years later.
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Of course you all know that spraying ANY copper, or copper fungicide products and using synthetic fertilizers (pollutants) will kill and starve this bacteria which will interfere with the natural cycling of nutrients which will eventually manifest into plant diseases and nutrient deficiencies like copper, zinc, etc. and pollute our drinking water.
Very interesting especially the concept of rolling down the grass and letting legumes dominate as a ground cover and mulch producer. Maybe a little dogmatic about nitrogen fixing bacteria, though. While I hope that ways can be found to grow large scale without chemicals or tillage saying that ANY chemicals will "kill or starve bacteria" just isn't factual. Millions of acres, admittedly degraded, still record very high rhizobial nitrogen fixation using, for instance, glyphosate resistant soybean and probably all manner of chemical inputs, treated seeds, etc.
Here is a story. When I first came to Florida I (paid) consulted with several people to get a head start understanding what I was facing. I knew te place had been regularly mowed and I had identified that it had, at minimum, four well known perennial grasses well established. The worst was torpedo grass. My intent was to plant fruit trees but to do so using the most environmentally friendly way. When I suggested using glyphosate at first to eliminate the grasses so that I could move on, one of the consultants told me that doing so would "kill everything". His best solution was to soak the place with high test vinegar, or keep pigs on the land for a while to eat the grass down. Knowing that conventional farmers regularly document nitrogen fixation that was about all I needed to know from that consultant.
Bottom line is that if we want to promote better ways of farming we need to understand exactly what we are talking about and not oversell. I know of more than one person in my area who tried to plant fruit trees without removing the torpedo grass first. It is growing right up to the tree trunk & they are steadily mowing and got far poorer results than I did by removing the grass and starting fresh. I can show very good nodulation on many of the legumes I have planted even though I used about 4 applications of glyphosate, some slow release fertilizers and micronutrients. This should be my last year using the chemical fertilizer. I am setting up a large scale vermicomposting system fed by homegrown biomass, and will be continuing to make fish emulsion for other minerals not available in my soil.
[/quote
Uh, i was talking about copper killing bacteria, stick with the topic.
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Location: South Florida; Time: Summer; Soil: Sandy.
I planted a mix of seeds around a few mango trees a couple months ago as the rainy season was about to start. The mix was suppose to be the MILPA Garden Warm Season Mix from Green Cover Seed. The one I got had more variety and no corn seed? I added more red ripper cow peas to the mix. I did not check again until today. It looks like only two types of plants survived. A grass and the red ripper cow pea. Everything else died or was eaten.
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Mokeyfish Moringa does not fix nitrogen
One useful tree not yet mentioned is Moringa, supplying not just nitrogen but food for humans too.
Some sources say yes, some no.
It has been suggested that because Moringa was initially classified a legume, it was then assumed it fixed nitrogen like other members of the family, but reclassified in brassica, its now assumed that the initial assumption was erroneous. I think its not as simple as that.
It has been established that Bradyrhizobium inoculation results in increased growth rates, leaf protein content and overall yield by weight, but without root nodulation. I think we don't fully understand what's happening.
Then we have this, from about 20 months ago:
"Seed-transmitted endophytic bacteria colonize all tissues of Moringa seedlings. Endophytes isolated from the Moringa seeds show positive effects on growth and potential for imparting increased disease resistance in plants. Bacillus pumilus and Pantoea agglomerans displayed growth promoting characteristics and the Klebsiella showed strong antifungal activities. Examination of seedling roots showed presence of oxidizing intracellular bacteria as seen in many other plants where the rhizophagy cycle has been hypothesized. The rhizophagy cycle is a process whereby plants obtain nutrients from bacteria that alternate between an intracellular endophytic phase and a free-living soil phase. Bacteria acquire soil nutrients in the free-living soil phase; nutrients are extracted from bacteria oxidatively in the intracellular endophytic phase. A previous experiment suggested that 30% of the nutrients absorbed by plant roots may come from the rhizophagy cycle. It is possible that much of the enhanced protein accumulation capacity of Moringa could derive from the rhizophagy cycle and direct extraction from symbiotic
bacteria. Additional research is needed to confirm this possibility."
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/James_White15/publication/321484411_Endophytes_of_Moringa_oleifera_Evaluation_of_Growth_Promotional_Features/links/5a2439f40f7e9b71dd0739bf/Endophytes-of-Moringa-oleifera-Evaluation-of-Growth-Promotional-Features.pdf (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/James_White15/publication/321484411_Endophytes_of_Moringa_oleifera_Evaluation_of_Growth_Promotional_Features/links/5a2439f40f7e9b71dd0739bf/Endophytes-of-Moringa-oleifera-Evaluation-of-Growth-Promotional-Features.pdf)
In the article "Constraints And Opportunities For Cultivation Of Moringa oleifera In The Zimbabwean Smallholder Growers" from "International Journal of Agricultural Research, Innovation and Technology" it is stated that Moringa benefits from mycorrhizal nitrogen–fixing association, but the species of fungi are not mentioned.
Finally in
http://ijpsr.com/bft-article/biodiversity-of-the-endophytic-fungi-isolated-from-moringa-oleifera-of-yercaud-hills/?view=fulltext (http://ijpsr.com/bft-article/biodiversity-of-the-endophytic-fungi-isolated-from-moringa-oleifera-of-yercaud-hills/?view=fulltext)
we have:
"This present study is undertaken to isolate and identify the potential endophytic fungi from Moringa oleifera, a traditional medicinal plant. Based on the macroscopic & microscopic features the fungal isolates were identified as Alternaria spp., Aspergillus spp. Bipolaris spp., Exosphiala spp., Nigrospora spp., and Penicillium spp. "
There may be more about the interactions of Moringa, bacteria and fungi that we have yet to discover. In any case, leaf litter from the tree will decay and the proteins will revert to nitrogen in the soil.
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There may be more about the interactions of Moringa, bacteria and fungi that we have yet to discover. In any case, leaf litter from the tree will decay and the proteins will revert to nitrogen in the soil.
Interesting stuff. I just thought you were thinking Moringa was a legume with nitrogen nodulation. I'ts true any organic matter's nitrogen will feed the soil. Tithonia diversifolia is another fast growing fast rotting plant that makes great fertiliser.
I would like to set up some small ibc ponds just for growing duckweed.
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Duckweed is an interesting idea. It would contribute more protein/ nitrogen than even moringa, and not a lot of plants can do that. It also is edible. Not to get off topic, I set up a pond for the chickens to access water, made from a free-on-craigslist jacuzzi shell. The plants I have in there are just Bacopa and Calamus. Duckweed might be available here: https://www.aquabid.com/ (https://www.aquabid.com/)
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I find invasive species a bit nonsensical. Pioneer species generally start the succession towards a forest on damaged or bare land. Eventually they make way for longer living taller growing climax species. Biodiversity is improved with all the different species that have made there way around the world in recent times and they are greatly trying to fix all the damage humans are doing.
So many nitrogen fixers are serious invasives
Come drive around south Florida where Brazilian pepper and paper bark trees are crowding out almost EVERYTHING!
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"A team of University of Florida biologists found, for example, that it was almost impossible to establish the Brazilian pepper in an undisturbed forest."
Humans have damaged the landscape so much.
Come drive around south Florida where Brazilian pepper and paper bark trees are crowding out almost EVERYTHING!
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Lol! They obviously never took a walk in the woods to come upon that finding...
"A team of University of Florida biologists found, for example, that it was almost impossible to establish the Brazilian pepper in an undisturbed forest."
Humans have damaged the landscape so much.
Come drive around south Florida where Brazilian pepper and paper bark trees are crowding out almost EVERYTHING!
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"A team of University of Florida biologists found, for example, that it was almost impossible to establish the Brazilian pepper in an undisturbed forest."
Humans have damaged the landscape so much.
That was believed true in 1982 by the New York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/27/us/florida-county-bans-3-harmful-exotic-trees.html (https://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/27/us/florida-county-bans-3-harmful-exotic-trees.html)
Brazilian Pepper even invades and dominates mangroves. To get it out then the mangroves are destroyed. I actually do call it Satanwood. Luckily I'm not allergic and was able to tolerate running it through a chipper. Here I was yanking them out with a small tractor. If you cut them high and use that as a lever they have shallow root systems and can be pulled over in sandy soil. The 12 inch diameter monster at left side of the screen required an excavator.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bGT1MbGh/DSC01253.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bGT1MbGh)
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Sesbania Punicea,tropical nitrogen fixer and legume tree.Flowered after just 6 months old from seed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCvq7z5q/IMG-20190826-WA0003.jpg)
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I just planted 2 seedlings of Caragana Arborescens (siberian pea shrub).
Finally i got an edible ,cold hardy legume tree.It makes tiny beans wich you can eat just like regular beans.
The wood resembles rosewoods.
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As decorative plants i have a few trumpet vines,Campsis Radicans and mimosa tree ,Albizzia Julibrissin.Both plants verry cold hardy nitrogen fixers that bloom all summer long with beautifull flowers.
I like trumpet trees they have beautiful flowers. Did not realize i have so many nitrogen fixers pigeon pea and many other legumes
(https://i.postimg.cc/N2TK87fJ/thumbnail-20.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N2TK87fJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V5b0c1Bq/thumbnail-21.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V5b0c1Bq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t7jcGRFP/thumbnail-22.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t7jcGRFP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9rXNzx8Q/thumbnail-23.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rXNzx8Q)
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As decorative plants i have a few trumpet vines,Campsis Radicans and mimosa tree ,Albizzia Julibrissin.Both plants verry cold hardy nitrogen fixers that bloom all summer long with beautifull flowers.
I like trumpet trees they have beautiful flowers. Did not realize i have so many nitrogen fixers pigeon pea and many other legumes
(https://i.postimg.cc/N2TK87fJ/thumbnail-20.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N2TK87fJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V5b0c1Bq/thumbnail-21.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V5b0c1Bq)
Whats the fruit from the second picture?
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Looks like white mulberry.
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Looks like white mulberry.
Your right.It confused me because the mulberry its not a nitrogen fixing tree.
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Looks like white mulberry.
Your right.It confused me because the mulberry its not a nitrogen fixing tree.
Its a white mulberry my bad i thought mulberry leaves were nitrogen fixer
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Pigeon Pea
I forgot about that one and Jack beans(Canavalia ensiformis) . Pokeweed you could try a row of pigeon peas next to your figs. Plant 4 seeds about 12 inches apart and prune to a bush form they will persist till frost.
The jack beans are good because they grow in a large bush form. I let the jackbeans grow up then bend them over to the ground in different directions to create a medium high bush ground cover. The best part about jackbeans is they don't make twining vines that choke out taller plants. Get the whites seeded variety the red seed tends to vine. I also use velvet beans but they can easily smother plants, great for a field use.
Nodulation on jackbean seedlings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xqwqL8wP/DSC01755.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xqwqL8wP)
Drone view of pigeon pea borders down each side of fruit trees. I have cut these about 6 times. Each time they are pruned hard they release nitrogen.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t169qNTQ/drone-pigeon-peas.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t169qNTQ)
Pigeon peas between pruning:
(https://i.postimg.cc/n92F8VLX/DSC01460.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/n92F8VLX)
Jack bean around banana:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DJmd409T/DSC01457.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJmd409T)
Velvet bean ground cover in open field(note how it is climbing pine tree):
(https://i.postimg.cc/pp19yk2p/DSC01467.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pp19yk2p)
Here is one more for you - Clitoria ternate (Asian pigeonwings). A non aggressive climber and a great nitrogen fixer. Intense blue flowers can be used as a food coloring.
This is a good thread thanks. I have a row of 'Dwarf Puerto Rican' Plantain i will plant Pigeon peas in between plants. Tomatoes in January
(https://i.postimg.cc/gxFGNhtC/zx.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gxFGNhtC)
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Would you all be better off by spending money on N than on water?
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Family doesnt allow me to keep big bags of N wich is explosible ,around the house.
And they are right.
I sleep better when i dont think of the non exploded atomic bomb i keep in the garrage ( the bags of granular N ) ;D.
Organic N its too expensive and too hard to find so these nitrogen fixing plants help me keeping the soil in good condition ,almost for free.
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Would you all be better off by spending money on N than on water?
I'm not a commercial operation so water not a issue for me. I only have a couple citrus but in the few months of dry season i average at lest 2 inch's of rain and can throw a rock and hit water. SeaWalnut can't help my self love photography here is today's photo's of garden
(https://i.postimg.cc/crDXYGHb/thumbnail-25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/crDXYGHb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/34HB7KSd/thumbnail-26.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/34HB7KSd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/w32V8Yhj/thumbnail-27.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w32V8Yhj)
Nitrogen Fixers Florida chicken
(https://i.postimg.cc/VdjK0dTs/thumbnail-28.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdjK0dTs)
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Would you all be better off by spending money on N than on water?
I'm not a commercial operation so water not a issue for me. I only have a couple citrus but in the few months of dry season i average at lest 2 inch's of rain and can throw a rock and hit water. SeaWalnut can't help my self love photography here is today's photo's of garden
(https://i.postimg.cc/crDXYGHb/thumbnail-25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/crDXYGHb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/34HB7KSd/thumbnail-26.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/34HB7KSd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/w32V8Yhj/thumbnail-27.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w32V8Yhj)
Nitrogen Fixers Florida chicken
(https://i.postimg.cc/VdjK0dTs/thumbnail-28.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdjK0dTs)
Nice garden,canal and ,,chickens,,.Amazing that they come so cloose to people.
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It’s nice to throw a rock and hit water!
Carry on with your fixers.
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It’s nice to throw a rock and hit water!
Carry on with your fixers.
As i was reading this post!
(https://i.postimg.cc/K4QdTr50/DSCN0862.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K4QdTr50)
(https://i.postimg.cc/w33kWXpf/DSCN0857.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w33kWXpf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jt2Cg5BG/DSCN0859.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Jt2Cg5BG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dZBvkbV6/DSCN0860.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dZBvkbV6)
This is why it is nice to have a good camera next to you!
(https://i.postimg.cc/t19pNRLb/cam.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t19pNRLb)
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Is that an otter?
Just sowed some mini clover seeds underneath a mulberry tree, going to see how it goes.
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Is that an otter?
Just sowed some mini clover seeds underneath a mulberry tree, going to see how it goes.
Is that an otter?
Just sowed some mini clover seeds underneath a mulberry tree, going to see how it goes.
That is a good idea. I would like to see photos of tree when clover sprouts
Yes is otter he came up WPA Outfall ditch from Lake Tohopekaliga
Yes he is a Nitrogen Fixers
(https://i.postimg.cc/F1BMFtQh/DSCN0865.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F1BMFtQh)
(https://i.postimg.cc/w3XNgzNm/DSCN0864.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3XNgzNm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LJwkhT8Y/thumbnail-31.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LJwkhT8Y)
Gardening is for the birds :) Nice rain today the wildlife loves it :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXNm6Bzr/DSCN0886.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXNm6Bzr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9r2zYXbQ/DSCN0877.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9r2zYXbQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hf4QqPd3/DSCN0896.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hf4QqPd3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/svg6gN0f/DSCN0889.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/svg6gN0f)
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Native wax myrtles are good for birds
Like legumes, wax myrtle roots also have nodules that contain nitrogen-fixing bacteria so this plant helps supply its own fertilizer. These fast growing aromatic shrubs can be sheared to create a dense privacy hedge around a deck or to help block the view of neighboring buildings.
Large numbers of myrtle warblers (also known as yellow-rumped warblers), feast on the berries during their fall migration. These birds have a longer digestive tract than other warblers and can better absorb nutrients from the slow-to-digest wax. During harsh winters when food is scarce, wax myrtle berries can be a lifesaver for cardinals, mockingbirds, Carolina wrens and other winter residents.
Planted on pond bank for birds and to block neighbors flood lights
(https://i.postimg.cc/WdqgyrXj/thumbnail-33.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdqgyrXj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cr28fCZz/thumbnail-32.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cr28fCZz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JHBR81gy/DSCN0908.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JHBR81gy)
Wax myrtle (Myrica Cerifera) is a southern version of the northern bayberry bush. The small, bead-like aromatic berries that appear on the female plants have a gray waxy coating and are a favorite food of many birds including the gray catbird.
Took photo last year
(https://i.postimg.cc/nXbXSW5V/DSCN0540.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nXbXSW5V)
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Is that an otter?
Just sowed some mini clover seeds underneath a mulberry tree, going to see how it goes.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/aa198 (https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/aa198)
https://dengarden.com/gardening/Clover-Lawns (https://dengarden.com/gardening/Clover-Lawns)
https://www.outsidepride.com/seed/clover-seed/miniclover.html (https://www.outsidepride.com/seed/clover-seed/miniclover.html)
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I once winter-sowed white dutch clover and rye grass intensively across a 2 acre garden plot. In spring I tilled raised garden beds leaving the clover in paths. It worked well but two disadvantages I found:
1. The clover was damned slippery and especially in spring when the dew was on it in the mornings.
2. It held dew/water underneath so long into the day it became very difficult to mow, the stems were very succulent so that the mower would clog up with wet clover and was so slippery the wheels of the riding mower would slip.
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I once winter-sowed white dutch clover and rye grass intensively across a 2 acre garden plot. In spring I tilled raised garden beds leaving the clover in paths. It worked well but two disadvantages I found:
1. The clover was damned slippery and especially in spring when the dew was on it in the mornings.
2. It held dew/water underneath so long into the day it became very difficult to mow, the stems were very succulent so that the mower would clog up with wet clover and was so slippery the wheels of the riding mower would slip.
What do you think of alfaalfa?
I just planted 52 fruit trees on a field of alfaalfa wich is mowed now but im affraid it will get bigger than the trees wich are quite short now .
Was thinking to till the land and plant clover .
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I once winter-sowed white dutch clover and rye grass intensively across a 2 acre garden plot. In spring I tilled raised garden beds leaving the clover in paths. It worked well but two disadvantages I found:
1. The clover was damned slippery and especially in spring when the dew was on it in the mornings.
2. It held dew/water underneath so long into the day it became very difficult to mow, the stems were very succulent so that the mower would clog up with wet clover and was so slippery the wheels of the riding mower would slip.
What do you think of alfaalfa?
I just planted 52 fruit trees on a field of alfaalfa wich is mowed now but im affraid it will get bigger than the trees wich are quite short now .
Was thinking to till the land and plant clover .
What types of tree's did you plant “Enquiring minds want to know” My guess is Prunus serotina, commonly called black cherry, wild black cherry, rum cherry, or mountain black cherry wonderfully sweet—almost like candy when eaten out of hand—and super juicy
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I once winter-sowed white dutch clover and rye grass intensively across a 2 acre garden plot. In spring I tilled raised garden beds leaving the clover in paths. It worked well but two disadvantages I found:
1. The clover was damned slippery and especially in spring when the dew was on it in the mornings.
2. It held dew/water underneath so long into the day it became very difficult to mow, the stems were very succulent so that the mower would clog up with wet clover and was so slippery the wheels of the riding mower would slip.
What do you think of alfaalfa?
I just planted 52 fruit trees on a field of alfaalfa wich is mowed now but im affraid it will get bigger than the trees wich are quite short now .
Was thinking to till the land and plant clover .
What types of tree's did you plant “Enquiring minds want to know” My guess is Prunus serotina, commonly called black cherry, wild black cherry, rum cherry, or mountain black cherry wonderfully sweet—almost like candy when eaten out of hand—and super juicy
Ive planted almond trees,Prunus dulcis.
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I once winter-sowed white dutch clover and rye grass intensively across a 2 acre garden plot. In spring I tilled raised garden beds leaving the clover in paths. It worked well but two disadvantages I found:
1. The clover was damned slippery and especially in spring when the dew was on it in the mornings.
2. It held dew/water underneath so long into the day it became very difficult to mow, the stems were very succulent so that the mower would clog up with wet clover and was so slippery the wheels of the riding mower would slip.
What do you think of alfaalfa?
I just planted 52 fruit trees on a field of alfaalfa wich is mowed now but im affraid it will get bigger than the trees wich are quite short now .
Was thinking to till the land and plant clover .
What types of tree's did you plant “Enquiring minds want to know” My guess is Prunus serotina, commonly called black cherry, wild black cherry, rum cherry, or mountain black cherry wonderfully sweet—almost like candy when eaten out of hand—and super juicy
Ive planted almond trees,Prunus dulcis.
good choice my second favorite nut after Carya illinoinensis, commonly called hardy pecan. Would be labor intensive but sling blade a radius around trees if Alfalfa becomes a problem height of up to 1 m (3.3 ft),
(https://i.postimg.cc/qzGZ2KCM/zzzzzzxxxx.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzGZ2KCM)
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On the small lands ive planted the almonds,initially i wanted to plant northern pecans of wich i had a collection of seedlings from Mahan,Colby,the Kanza and a few wild ones plus somme from Israel and otther countryes.
They all died because of somme experimental pots i made so now ive decided to go on with almonds .
Not as good as pecans or as valuable ,but they fruit faster ,are more drought tolerant.
I will be chop and drop the alphalpha near the almonds thogh as fast as i know it growing,it will be a lot of labour for 54 trees.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKJN7RxS/IMG-20181031-124205.jpg)
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What do you think of alfaalfa?
So far as I know alfalfa isn't adapted to tropical climates or the light soils and high water tables we get in south Florida.
It has been grown but more of an annual. We do, however have a huge variety of possible annual and perennial legumes of all statures including trees so there isn't a shortage of nitrogen fixers.
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Seawalnt - Did you make those root pruning pots? I haven't found inexpensive material to use for them. What did you use?
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Seawalnt - Did you make those root pruning pots? I haven't found inexpensive material to use for them. What did you use?
Ive used dimpled membrane like Delta MS found at every home depot here.Its not as good as the original root pruning pots because its not UV resistant but if you keep them in a greenhouse or not in direct sunlight should do fine.The holes are verry easy to drill after you first cut all the sheets and put them one on top of the otther.
For assembly i used aluminum rivets with 2 washers.
https://youtu.be/ThRk8k6fKio
They pecans did grow these nice taproots and i was verry happy with these pots until the cold in winter dryed them because of too manny holes and i couldnt wet them back ( the water would freeze on the surface).
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwhPXrFY/20190515-092803.jpg)
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What do you think of alfaalfa?
So far as I know alfalfa isn't adapted to tropical climates or the light soils and high water tables we get in south Florida.
It has been grown but more of an annual. We do, however have a huge variety of possible annual and perennial legumes of all statures including trees so there isn't a shortage of nitrogen fixers.
Alfalfa vs grass hay used for horse feed .They say that alfalfa has 21 % protein ( nitrogen source) while the regular hay has just 10 %.
The power of nitrogen fixers.
https://www.mvsequine.com/the-hay-wars-the-truth-about-grass-hay-vs-alfalfa-hay/ (https://www.mvsequine.com/the-hay-wars-the-truth-about-grass-hay-vs-alfalfa-hay/)