Author Topic: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?  (Read 13728 times)

mangomaniac2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
    • Phoenix, Arizona
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2015, 10:12:21 AM »
bougainvillea is like a weed, at least here in AZ it is. I really doubt any special care needs to go into the soil for those guys. Once in the ground a few months they grow without anything, no water, food, soil modifications, nothing.  Only special care it needs is the axe and shovel.

willowwater

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
    • Bahamas
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2015, 05:24:40 PM »
I prefer elemental sulfur.  I've heard that aluminum sulfate can be harmful to plants if you go overbaord with it.

As i have stated before,  Tiger Sulfur (elemental) is the best way to go to overall lower soil ph.  However,  if growing something acid loving such as blueberries,  miracle fruit, bougainvillea,  etc., it would also benefit to use something such as peat, pinebark, pine needles at the actual planting site as well as supplementing with a fertilizer for acid loving plants such as a bougainvillea or azalea /camellia blend.

bsbullie - What kinda application rates you using? My trees have a 6 feet diameter bed of organic mulch around them. Thanks for the input.

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2015, 05:46:01 PM »
bougainvillea is like a weed, at least here in AZ it is. I really doubt any special care needs to go into the soil for those guys. Once in the ground a few months they grow without anything, no water, food, soil modifications, nothing.  Only special care it needs is the axe and shovel.

Growing like a weed and looking good are two separate things.  Mangoes grow like weeds here but they still require nutition to be at their best.
- Rob

CTMIAMI

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1972
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2015, 10:48:54 PM »
This week found a good source of Amonium sulfate for $14.00 for 50 lbs,  mixed this pot Nitrate for a more balanced mixture. Testing to see effect on soil.
Carlos
 Tweeter: @carlosdlt280
www.myavocadotrees.com
zone 10a Miami-Dade County

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2015, 12:49:00 AM »
Application Rates:
1. For 1 lb of sulfur, use 1.11 lb Tiger Organic 0-0-0-90.
2. Apply appropriate amount of Tiger Organic 0-0-0-90 according to soil amending needs recommended by a pH test and soil test to check for sodium and lime.
3. As a general guideline, apply 250 lbs/acre or up to 5 lbs per 1,000 sq ft of Tiger 90CR Sulfur and monitor soil pH levels to determine if additional sulfur applications are required.
4. One 50 lb bag should cover up to 10,000 sq ft.


quote author=willowwater link=topic=14382.msg182976#msg182976 date=1424384680]
I prefer elemental sulfur.  I've heard that aluminum sulfate can be harmful to plants if you go overbaord with it.

As i have stated before,  Tiger Sulfur (elemental) is the best way to go to overall lower soil ph.  However,  if growing something acid loving such as blueberries,  miracle fruit, bougainvillea,  etc., it would also benefit to use something such as peat, pinebark, pine needles at the actual planting site as well as supplementing with a fertilizer for acid loving plants such as a bougainvillea or azalea /camellia blend.

bsbullie - What kinda application rates you using? My trees have a 6 feet diameter bed of organic mulch around them. Thanks for the input.
[/quote]


- Rob

mangomaniac2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
    • Phoenix, Arizona
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2015, 10:51:27 AM »
bougainvillea is like a weed, at least here in AZ it is. I really doubt any special care needs to go into the soil for those guys. Once in the ground a few months they grow without anything, no water, food, soil modifications, nothing.  Only special care it needs is the axe and shovel.

Growing like a weed and looking good are two separate things.  Mangoes grow like weeds here but they still require nutition to be at their best.
Not sure about bougainvillea every looking like anything but a pile of flowers. Once they get established its a razor blade plant you wish you would have never planted and grows fast.

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2015, 11:38:01 AM »
It depends on area. The guys north of broward (and in parts of broward) have pretty darn nice soil. Low (normal) rates of sulfur will probably do the trick there.

My area is a bit more dire. I used 40 50 pound bags of sulfur (2000 pounds) for a quarter acre. It's been several months with minimal effect (about a 0.4 PH drop). No detriment to vegetation, but the yellow color of the sulfur looks ugly :-).

I based my rates on an experiment done by Agvise. The soil that they experimented on actually has a lower level of free calcium than the soil we have here in parts of broward and dade, so I figured that their experiment was a good starting point for me. (Some soils in this area have free calcium carbonate percentages in the double digits!) I would have done more, but 40 bags of tiger was a hefty chunk of dough.

Agvise's conclusions were that gypsum didn't work and that sulfur had a minor effect that dissipated over the years. They also found that the cover crops experienced no detriment nor any improvement in nutrient uptake. I can't find the link to the latest in the series of follow-ups, but the PH eventually went back to the original starting point of 8.0.

In the many years that I've spent trying to combat high ph soil, and after trying nearly everything (soil drenches, sulfur, foliar mixes, compost incorporation, mulching, etc), the thing that has produced the best results has been tree trimmer mulch that slowly breaks down and builds up a layer of ph-neutral soil. The ph buffering capacity of this type of soil is pretty high, but sulfur applied to this layer can reduce ph by 0.2+. The end goal is to create 6 to 12 inches of fully composted soil. This has taken me many years, and even with this the more sensitive trees still have significant chlorosis (eg, carambola). However the impact has been fairly significant.

Below are links to Agvise's experiment:

http://www.agvise.com/educational-articles/high-soil-ph-can-we-fix-this-problem/

Here is the follow-up from 2011:
http://www.agvise.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/John-SoilAmendments05-2011.pdf

Application Rates:
1. For 1 lb of sulfur, use 1.11 lb Tiger Organic 0-0-0-90.
2. Apply appropriate amount of Tiger Organic 0-0-0-90 according to soil amending needs recommended by a pH test and soil test to check for sodium and lime.
3. As a general guideline, apply 250 lbs/acre or up to 5 lbs per 1,000 sq ft of Tiger 90CR Sulfur and monitor soil pH levels to determine if additional sulfur applications are required.
4. One 50 lb bag should cover up to 10,000 sq ft.


quote author=willowwater link=topic=14382.msg182976#msg182976 date=1424384680]
I prefer elemental sulfur.  I've heard that aluminum sulfate can be harmful to plants if you go overbaord with it.

As i have stated before,  Tiger Sulfur (elemental) is the best way to go to overall lower soil ph.  However,  if growing something acid loving such as blueberries,  miracle fruit, bougainvillea,  etc., it would also benefit to use something such as peat, pinebark, pine needles at the actual planting site as well as supplementing with a fertilizer for acid loving plants such as a bougainvillea or azalea /camellia blend.

bsbullie - What kinda application rates you using? My trees have a 6 feet diameter bed of organic mulch around them. Thanks for the input.
[/quote]
Jeff  :-)

mangomaniac2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
    • Phoenix, Arizona
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2015, 12:10:15 PM »
The problem I get with using sulfur to correct the PH is that the leaves take on a lot more sun damage and all the leaves get toasted. Just throw down a bunch of pine bark and be done with it. Simple as that. Once the leaves and tree start to look like they are starving even though there is plenty of nutrients in the soil, just add some more or replace the old pine bark mulch with fresh and then your back up to speed in no time. This problem is step 1 for AZ soil in order to get anything to grow or survive in the heat.
Depending on the fertilizer you use, there is good chance there is enough sulfur in that to correct the ph for a little while too.
Sulfur is used extensively here, but more for turf and non fruiting trees that do not have much problems with the soil anyways, just speeds them up. On citrus and Mango you get crispy leaves once summer rolls in.

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2015, 12:17:42 PM »
Jeff/Mmaniac2 - exactly, what works for one will not necessarily work for everyone.  One has to do what is best for their own conditions.  With that being said, if one doesn't try they will never know.  It is also key to adjust the conditions of all your area, not just in an isolated "ring" around a certain tree.

As with the Tiger Sulfur (elemental), depending on the location, you may have to apply every year or one application may least for a couple few years.
- Rob

mangomaniac2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
    • Phoenix, Arizona
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2015, 01:02:12 PM »
Rob is right on, the sulfur method is a slow process over time. Here it's added once a year in the fall in order to prevent any foliage burn. After a few years the soil PH drops at which point quantities can be reduced. I chose the pine bark route because I cannot afford to wait so long for ph correction for several reasons, mainly just so poor of soil and water. Without, there is no way to get through even the first summer. I think once the trees are well established the sulfur method will work better because of the amount of area required to be corrected, and the much larger plant can likely be more tolerant to sulfur.

bangkok

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2823
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2015, 02:33:44 PM »
bougainvillea is like a weed, at least here in AZ it is. I really doubt any special care needs to go into the soil for those guys. Once in the ground a few months they grow without anything, no water, food, soil modifications, nothing.  Only special care it needs is the axe and shovel.

Same here, they grow like crazy and everywhere. Also they can grow very tall, untill 20 metres or more. If they really need acidic soil then everything here must be acidic.

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2015, 09:08:44 PM »
The key thing that I think is being missed here is that it's totally dependent on soil. Sulfur works quite well on soils with negligible free lime, and the resulting change in ph would last quite a long time. Those charts you see with indications on how much sulfur to apply in order to enact a ph change often have footnotes stipulating "effective only on soils without free lime." In soils such as these, the only concern is the "buffer capacity" of the soil (ie, clay would need more sulfur than sand). If I had this type of soil, I'd do cartwheels up and down the yard for joy.

However, when there is free lime (calcium carbonate) in the soil, all of the free lime must first be reacted before any lasting ph changes can take place. I forget the exact ratio, but something like 1 part sulfur reacts with 3 parts calcium carbonate. So, if you have a soil with 1% free lime by (dry) weight and your goal is to get rid of the free lime in the first 12 inches of soil, you can calculate how much sulfur you would need to react with all of the free lime.

This sounds encouraging until we start calculating out how much sulfur is needed to do such a thing (many tons per acre!). And, here in parts of south florida, we have soils that are literally nearly 50% calcium carbonate. So, you're looking at a Gargantuan amount (hundreds of tons) sulfur per acre to react with the free lime in just the top few inches.

So, you and Rob are spoiled brats with awesome soil (that I would love to have) where sulfur works according to those little charts that they post online. Not the case with a large section of south florida, though ;-).

Rob is right on, the sulfur method is a slow process over time. Here it's added once a year in the fall in order to prevent any foliage burn. After a few years the soil PH drops at which point quantities can be reduced. I chose the pine bark route because I cannot afford to wait so long for ph correction for several reasons, mainly just so poor of soil and water. Without, there is no way to get through even the first summer. I think once the trees are well established the sulfur method will work better because of the amount of area required to be corrected, and the much larger plant can likely be more tolerant to sulfur.
Jeff  :-)

darkcoolboo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
    • Tucson, AZ - USDA Zone 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2015, 09:29:02 PM »
I second bougainvillea being a weed. It tolerates shade AND no soil amendment, and not a scratch. The only thing thing that hurts it may be caterpillars, but grows too fast. A the end of the flowering season, the purple/pink flowers dance across the sidewalk in dust devils. It's a pain to prune back, but the caterpillars do most of the work. For the sulfur, I think it's never best to overdose on such things. Like mangomaniac2 said, too much sulfur causes leave burn and drop. I would go with the organic option.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 09:36:20 PM by darkcoolboo »

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2015, 09:44:42 PM »
I second bougainvillea being a weed. It tolerates shade AND no soil amendment, and not a scratch. The only thing thing that hurts it may be caterpillars, but grows too fast. A the end of the flowering season, the purple/pink flowers dance across the sidewalk in dust devils. It's a pain to prune back, but the caterpillars do most of the work. For the sulfur, I think it's never best to overdose on such things. Like mangomaniac2 said, too much sulfur causes leave burn and drop. I would go with the organic option.

I think the Arizona climate has a lot more to do with the leaf burn issue.
- Rob

gnappi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1974
    • South East Florida (U.S.A) Zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2015, 10:06:18 PM »

While I don't think I have much of a problem with my soil, I'm wondering what effect (if any) my and most others' sulfur laden ground water has on soil ph?

Also along those lines what effect does adding sulfur to the soil affect the ground water ph? Does it acidify it much in the large quantities being stated here?
Regards,

   Gary

darkcoolboo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
    • Tucson, AZ - USDA Zone 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2015, 10:15:42 PM »

Quote
I think the Arizona climate has a lot more to do with the leaf burn issue.
Then forget about it, I guess you don't need Arizonian help.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 10:19:10 PM by darkcoolboo »

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2015, 10:24:56 PM »
There's so much calcium carbonate in both our soils and ground water that even if every homeowner in our area doused their lots with a ton of sulfur it probably wouldn't even have a measureable impact :-). We're sitting on top of a giant calcium reserve.


While I don't think I have much of a problem with my soil, I'm wondering what effect (if any) my and most others' sulfur laden ground water has on soil ph?

Also along those lines what effect does adding sulfur to the soil affect the ground water ph? Does it acidify it much in the large quantities being stated here?
Jeff  :-)

Das Bhut

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
    • Davie
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2015, 05:17:07 AM »
I'm an organic apologist and most of my trees seem perfectly fine with a few hundred pounds of horse manure and coffee grounds mixed into the sand, must be all that alfalfa or something.

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2015, 11:24:55 AM »
You probably have good soil there in Davie. Most of the folks that I've seen down there (eg, Harry, Bender, ..) have enviable soil -- either muck or 50/50 mix (muck mixed with sand), both of which tend to be slightly acid.

Tiger 90 is actually OMRI listed.

http://www.arbico-organics.com/product/2707/organic-soil-conditioners?kpid=1440075&gclid=CKOtmbW588MCFRUSjgodmBQAwQ

I'm an organic apologist and most of my trees seem perfectly fine with a few hundred pounds of horse manure and coffee grounds mixed into the sand, must be all that alfalfa or something.
Jeff  :-)

mangomaniac2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
    • Phoenix, Arizona
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2015, 01:00:43 PM »
I second bougainvillea being a weed. It tolerates shade AND no soil amendment, and not a scratch. The only thing thing that hurts it may be caterpillars, but grows too fast. A the end of the flowering season, the purple/pink flowers dance across the sidewalk in dust devils. It's a pain to prune back, but the caterpillars do most of the work. For the sulfur, I think it's never best to overdose on such things. Like mangomaniac2 said, too much sulfur causes leave burn and drop. I would go with the organic option.

I think the Arizona climate has a lot more to do with the leaf burn issue.
Depends on what you mean here. With healthy leaves through low sulfur and higher iron I do not have any problem with leaf burn. When you add a fertilizer high in sulfur, such as miracle grow, the plant starts getting torched at even 100 degrees, never mind handling 115 degrees. This is why I choose the nutricote 13-13-13 180 day slow release fertilizer, so the plants are nice and green without much sulfur. Since then no leaf burn other than extremes, such as 115 degrees for several days and in too many hours of overhead sun.

mangomaniac2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
    • Phoenix, Arizona
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2015, 01:07:30 PM »
The key thing that I think is being missed here is that it's totally dependent on soil. Sulfur works quite well on soils with negligible free lime, and the resulting change in ph would last quite a long time. Those charts you see with indications on how much sulfur to apply in order to enact a ph change often have footnotes stipulating "effective only on soils without free lime." In soils such as these, the only concern is the "buffer capacity" of the soil (ie, clay would need more sulfur than sand). If I had this type of soil, I'd do cartwheels up and down the yard for joy.

However, when there is free lime (calcium carbonate) in the soil, all of the free lime must first be reacted before any lasting ph changes can take place. I forget the exact ratio, but something like 1 part sulfur reacts with 3 parts calcium carbonate. So, if you have a soil with 1% free lime by (dry) weight and your goal is to get rid of the free lime in the first 12 inches of soil, you can calculate how much sulfur you would need to react with all of the free lime.

This sounds encouraging until we start calculating out how much sulfur is needed to do such a thing (many tons per acre!). And, here in parts of south florida, we have soils that are literally nearly 50% calcium carbonate. So, you're looking at a Gargantuan amount (hundreds of tons) sulfur per acre to react with the free lime in just the top few inches.

So, you and Rob are spoiled brats with awesome soil (that I would love to have) where sulfur works according to those little charts that they post online. Not the case with a large section of south florida, though ;-).

Rob is right on, the sulfur method is a slow process over time. Here it's added once a year in the fall in order to prevent any foliage burn. After a few years the soil PH drops at which point quantities can be reduced. I chose the pine bark route because I cannot afford to wait so long for ph correction for several reasons, mainly just so poor of soil and water. Without, there is no way to get through even the first summer. I think once the trees are well established the sulfur method will work better because of the amount of area required to be corrected, and the much larger plant can likely be more tolerant to sulfur.
Thanks for the detail. This is good to keep in mind whenever I do decide to implement sulfur again.

davidgarcia899

  • Marabu Groves - Redland, Florida
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1536
  • Marabu Groves
    • USA, Miami-Dade, 33187, 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2015, 08:00:24 AM »
My god sent has been tons and tons of would chips. But it takes years and patience to see substantial changes, but sooner or later everything will be be green
- David Antonio Garcia

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4745
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Would pine tree mulch lower soil PH?
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2015, 10:50:50 AM »
Amen. Same here. There is a gigantic difference between the trees on my lot and the ones just a few feet away. The mango trees on the adjacent lots have north of a 25% mortality rate. The high ph weakens them, and then the fungus comes in for the slow kill. The trees on my heavily mulched lot are green champs.

My god sent has been tons and tons of would chips. But it takes years and patience to see substantial changes, but sooner or later everything will be be green
Jeff  :-)