The Tropical Fruit Forum

In such discussions, remember that we have many different soils to start with.
I am looking into using charcoal in my potting mix.  And I am looking into a local factory that made the "cinders" for cinder blocks.  They used to give away any that got soil mixed in.  This material is actually clay with organic matter mixed in.  The firing burns out the organic matter, leaving pores in the fired clay.  I used to grow bonsai in it, without additives except fertilizer. 

Kumin in Pennsylvania put out 20,000 seedling last year.  By comparison, you don't have much of a problem. 
I started about 500 seedlings last winter, but my ignorance cut those down to about 100.
I don't have numbers on anyone else.  But I think your modest little grove shouldn't be much of a problem.  You are dealing with real citruholics here.

Are branch spreaders used on citrus?  They are commonly used on apples and peaches to prevent narrow crotches leading to weak branches.  I've never read of them being used on citrus.

I am growing many Poncirus seedling, some for pollen or seeds for breeding.  Most are for rootstocks for grafting.  When they were leafing out this spring, I noticed that many had twigs that had died back some, mostly 15 cm. to 30 cm.  That is just the amount of die back, not size of the seedlings.  Some of the seedlings have been through 7 winters here, and more have been added every year, in hope that I'll some winter hardy seedling to graft onto them.
Several of the seedling had no die back, but nearly half did.
Its not a big deal if a seedling for grafting has die back before grafting.  But when I do graft onto them, 30 cm die back means the scion is dead. 
So what is causing this die back and what can I do to prevent it?
I have seldom lost a whole tree to winter kill.  It seems to me it is only one summers growth I am loosing, maybe less.

I was 63 when I started a citrus breeding program.  I'm 69 now. Still starting lots of plants from seeds.  I'll stop when I die.
If you live to be as old as my mother lived, you have 38 more years.  Plenty of time to grow citrus from seeds.
But at 61, it wouldn't hurt to have a few older plants around in case you want some to eat now.

Whip grafting was my favorite graft with apples.  I would keep the scion in the refridgerater until the in-ground stocks showed new spring growth and graft the still dormant scions on.  I didn't both with the slit in the scion and stock.  Just made the diagonal cut in both and put them together with masking tape.  No bag, I was half way through the next graft by then.  Success was near 100% from my first graft.
But pure citrus don't go completely dormant, so I haven't tried on citrus.  But citranges , I think, go completely dormant in the northern part of their range.  So citrange on tifoliate might work using the apple way. 
I'm trying hard to graft citrus the way citrus people do it, but success rate is low so far.

It said Sansho is in the citrus family.  Do you know its genus and species?
Near the end, it said it is a good to sprinkle it on vanilla ice cream.  I was reminded that some like chiltipine powder on vanilla ice cream.  Chiltipine is the wild ancestor of domestic chili peppers and is extremely hot, but also with a strong pepper flavor aside from the hot flavor.

For over 10 years I had a greenhouse dug into a south-facing hill in Kansas, zone 6.  I could keep tomatoes and figs alive all winter with no heat but the sun.  Neither fogs nor tomatoes grew during December, January, or February, but the plants would star growing again in March.
I could take it with me when I moved, of course.  Bummer.

Given this, i was thinking, maybe if siamese sweet worked so nicely as parent tree, it would be interesting to attempt to cross it with one (or more) of the palatable hardy papeda (i was thinking to shangyuan lemons) in order to attempt to get some nice offspring from such cross, with valuable characteristics, what do you think?

I think it should be crossed with Poncirus trifoliata.  Other flavors aside, all P. trifoliata hybrids I've tasted have been very sour.

I really think an acidless Pt would be preferable to one with just the bad poncirus removed.  Poncirus hybrids I've eaten are much too sour.  Mixing juice of US 852, for example, with an acidless poncirus+  F2 hybrid might make a very nice juice.
That isn't my final goal, of course, but a step along the way.

Quote from: kumin on May 05, 2019, 03:33:43 PM

If I'm very fortunate a few of the plants might have edible fruit.

Hybridizing very hardy citrus that is truly good eating quality is going to take a long time.
I would count yourself lucky if you are able to achieve a hybrid that can survive in your winters and doesn't have poncirus bitterness, even if it might not be good fruit quality.

Perhaps someone in the future could later take your achievement and use it to hybridize a better hybrid in the future.
Incremental progress. If you achieve a significant improvement, even if it might not be what you had hoped for, don't throw it away.

As always, we have similar goals but are using different methods.  So far you have guessed right more than I have.  I have learned much from your results and modified my plans for the better.  Many thanks.

That said, I will be bringing in new breeding stock of pure citrus. 

I'll use Flying Dragon X Seedless Kishu.  Flying Dragon as it is my oldest P. trifoliata that gives a good percentage of zygotic seeds.  Seedless Kishu for its dominant gene for seedless.

I want to use Flying Dragon X Blood oranges.  Blood oranges have been said ,elsewhere on this forum, to have no sourness.  While I want some sourness in my citrus  fruit, all my 1/2 and 1/4 Pt hybrid fruit are much too sour.  IF the "no sour" in blood oranges is due to a single gene, then F2 Flying Dragon x Blood might include no sour or less sour fruit.  I think that (Clem x tri) x Clem juice mixed with a no sour trifoliata hybrid juice might give a good drink.

Also, as I've said elsewhere, I'd like to remake all the citrus X P. trifoliata crosses using Laaz's precocious P. t and using P.t like Poncirus+.

If anyone has the trees to make any of these crosses, but no room to grow them out, make the crosses and I'll make room for the seedlings.  And I'll share budwood as soon as possible.

As soon as your trees have leaves, you might taste them as Ilya does.  It would be great if even one lacks the Poncirus taste.

My seedlings are still on the north side of the house, in the shade.  Actually, the south is somewhat diagonal to north, so the seedlings get some late afternoon sun. 
I watch the weather forecast carefully, and take them inside if it will get near freezing.  In the last 2 weeks they have spent 3 nights and one day in the house.