Author Topic: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?  (Read 12220 times)

Garcinia

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What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« on: January 15, 2017, 01:44:12 PM »
So far I've documented these growing, with varying levels of vigor
Loquats- grow very fast here
Feijoas - grow very fast here
Guavas - grow very fast here
Lemon & strawberry guavas - grow very fast here
Citrus - grows incredibly well
Jackfruit - seedlings freeze and loses leaves in winter, grow back when it warms up
Avocados - not the best place as they are somewhat rare. I know of only a few trees in the area
Bananas (multiple cultivars) - grow pretty well, I see them frequently
Kiwi - I've seen a few vines around
Passionfruit - vigorous evergreen grower

There are probably others but these come to mind
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NateTheGreat

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 03:11:28 PM »
I think the following should survive here:
Muntingia Calabura
Pawpaw
Jaboticaba

And these may:
Eugenia candolleana (Rainforest plum)
Atemoya/Cherimoya
White Sapote
Eugenia neonitida (Pitangatuba) (grows well in a pot so could be taken indoors in the winter)
Possibly some mangos

bsbullie

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 04:50:19 PM »
Tropicals...NONE.

You need to plant for your location, unless you like plant genocide

If "some" mangoes survive. Then most would.  Will mangoes survive, thrive and produce well...highly doubtful.
- Rob

Garcinia

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 04:51:32 PM »
I think the following should survive here:
Muntingia Calabura
Pawpaw
Jaboticaba

And these may:
Eugenia candolleana (Rainforest plum)
Atemoya/Cherimoya
White Sapote
Eugenia neonitida (Pitangatuba) (grows well in a pot so could be taken indoors in the winter)
Possibly some mangos

Dragonfruit grows here, too. White sapote I've planned on and Eugenia uniflora should grow as well. I've heard reports of ice cream bean cold tolerance. I plan on starting with jujubes and white sapote outside and the rest in my greenhouse for now.
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Garcinia

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 04:53:00 PM »
Tropicals...NONE.

You need to plant for your location, unless you like plant genocide

If "some" mangoes survive. Then most would.  Will mangoes survive, thrive and produce well...highly doubtful.

People consider dragonfruit, jujube, white sapote, banana, avocado, feijoa, passionfruit, guava and jackfruit tropical...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 04:55:43 PM by Garcinia »
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waxy

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 05:41:40 PM »
Tropicals...NONE.

You need to plant for your location, unless you like plant genocide

If "some" mangoes survive. Then most would.  Will mangoes survive, thrive and produce well...highly doubtful.

People consider dragonfruit, jujube, white sapote, banana, avocado, feijoa, passionfruit, guava and jackfruit tropical...

Agreed, if it's not an apple, pear or a peach it's tropical to me.

bsbullie

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2017, 06:57:28 PM »
Uhhhh, nobody has ever heard the classification of sub-tropical?  Big difference with sub, full and ultra.  I cant help why and when people classify things incorrectly but one should know the difference before making statements.


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Garcinia

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2017, 08:11:42 PM »
Uhhhh, nobody has ever heard the classification of sub-tropical?  Big difference with sub, full and ultra.  I cant help why and when people classify things incorrectly but one should know the difference before making statements.

Well this is the TROPICAL fruit forum and there are many topics about these plants so I figured it would be safe to call them tropical.
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bsbullie

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2017, 09:28:54 PM »
Uhhhh, nobody has ever heard the classification of sub-tropical?  Big difference with sub, full and ultra.  I cant help why and when people classify things incorrectly but one should know the difference before making statements.

Well this is the TROPICAL fruit forum and there are many topics about these plants so I figured it would be safe to call them tropical.

Well, responses like that is just what I have been trying to say.  Your comment is senseless.  You really think every fruit discussed is "tropical"? 

You should look closely at all the different forums and their designations ("tropicalfruitforum" is just a name, not gospel that only pure tropical fruit are discussed here).  Better yet, do a little research on what fruits are really classified as what. 

I am not going to name every fruit but for one you mentioned, I dont know of anywhere its stated that feijoa is considered tropical (do you even know where it originates from?).  As a matter of fact, it thrives in Gainesville,  Florida which is in the northern part of the state, far from any tropical designation.
- Rob

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 12:19:49 AM »
It doesnt cost anything to be kind........
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Garcinia

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 12:22:36 AM »
Uhhhh, nobody has ever heard the classification of sub-tropical?  Big difference with sub, full and ultra.  I cant help why and when people classify things incorrectly but one should know the difference before making statements.

Well this is the TROPICAL fruit forum and there are many topics about these plants so I figured it would be safe to call them tropical.

Well, responses like that is just what I have been trying to say.  Your comment is senseless.  You really think every fruit discussed is "tropical"? 

You should look closely at all the different forums and their designations ("tropicalfruitforum" is just a name, not gospel that only pure tropical fruit are discussed here).  Better yet, do a little research on what fruits are really classified as what. 

I am not going to name every fruit but for one you mentioned, I dont know of anywhere its stated that feijoa is considered tropical (do you even know where it originates from?).  As a matter of fact, it thrives in Gainesville,  Florida which is in the northern part of the state, far from any tropical designation.

It comes from Brasil. Sorry, but I've seen it listed as tropical. My bad.
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joehewitt

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 12:24:17 AM »
The definition of "tropical" is any plant that prefers a warmer climate than the one you live in. ;)

joehewitt

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 12:54:00 AM »
Seriously though, Garcinia, I've spent the last year focused on this issue and I planted a bunch of questionable "subtropical" fruit trees last year to see how they'll do. Before I get to that, I should mention some trees not on your list which I've seen large specimens around the Bay Area:

* Jaboticaba
* Cherry of the Rio Grande
* Suriname Cherry
* Cherimoya
* Green Sapote
* White Sapote
* Ice Cream Bean

In my yard, the following trees have survived many winters without issue, so I don't consider them part of my experiment:

* All citrus
* Hass avocado
* Macadamia
* Bananas
* Feijoa
* Chilean guava (ugni)
* Strawberry guava
* Passionfruit (edulis)

As for my experiment, it's still winter so I can't report final results yet, it's already becoming clear which trees are hardier than others. My backyard in Los Gatos has seen several nights in the 28-30 range and I intentionally did not protect any of these trees, no matter how cold it got. They are out in the open, not near any buildings. They're getting the full brunt of winter!

Most of these are mature specimen, between 5-20 years old, and were planted last May.  So let's rank them:

These trees look as healthy as they did in summer:

* Jaboticaba (Sabara, Red, Trunciflora, Coronata)
* Cherry of the Rio Grande
* Ceylon Cinnamon
* Allspice
* Lucuma
* Atemoya
* Cherimoya
* White Sapote
* Lychee (Mauritius)

These trees have a few damaged leaves but seem mostly ok:

* Mango
* Longan (Kohala)
* Grumichama
* Suriname Cherry
* Black Sapote
* Carambola

These trees have dropped about half of their leaves, but the remaining leaves look healthy:

* Imbe
* Achacha
* Luc's Garcinia
* Green Sapote
* Yellow Jaboticaba

These trees are badly damaged, and I'd be shocked if they survived:

* Wax Jambu
* Peanut Butter Fruit
* Pitomba
* Bay Rum
* Cedar Bay Cherry
* Longan (Biew Kiew)
* Cinnamon Apple (Pouteria hypoglauca)

We're supposed to get down to 32 tonight, but with February approaching I see the light at the end of the tunnel! When spring comes I'll come back here to report final results.

EvilFruit

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 04:23:44 AM »
I don't know how big is your yard but, you can certainly create your own micro climate by building a pond (increase the humidity) and planting some cold hardy trees to protect your trees from cold wind. Don't expect to grow cocoa plants outside, but your chances of successfully growing sub-tropical will be much higher.

Watch this
http://youtu.be/4p5JJFWs1y0
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barath

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2017, 11:00:25 AM »
I've been a bit swamped to comment lately but here are a few quick thoughts on this topic.  I've planted many of the fruits mentioned in the thread outdoors in various places in the East Bay, with pretty good luck so far.  The catch is that almost all I started from seed (and then sometimes grafted) so they don't have the benefit of size when they face the cold winter, but the flip side is that the East Bay is a tiny bit warmer in the winter than Los Gatos (where Joe is) and that might be helping their survival.

In Berkeley I have several species of Passionfruit (P. edulis, P. alata, P. ligularis, P. venusta, P. nigradenia, and several hybrids) all growing outdoors, and have gotten fruit on P. edulis, P. alata, and flowers on the others.  In the same rooftop garden I have two Sapodillas that have been doing great -- the Alano produced its first fruit this year (not sure if it will ripen -- it's still hanging).  My Muntingia gets a bit sad every winter but it bounces back and produces tasty tiny fruits during late summer.  The pineapple has been doing well, with a small sugarloaf pineapple hanging out on top of it right now.  Tree tomatoes get battered by the wind but never by the cold.  The one thing that didn't make it was a Hawaiian Solo-type Papaya, which made it through last winter but then died in Spring, probably from cold wet roots.

In the East Bay I've had no problems getting fruit from Bananas, Guavas, and the usual subtropicals (Avocado, White Sapote, Lemon Guava, etc.).  I have some Carambola I grafted in containers, and more pineapple, Guava, Mango, Jaboticaba, Ingas, and misc Eugenias, and they all are doing fine -- a little battered by the cold wind but alive.  Chachafruto seems to be very cold sensitive -- it died outdoors in all the spots I had it.  Guaya is hanging on despite the cold (a bit burn back but otherwise fine).

Tom A. got more fruit from his Green Sapote this year here in El Cerrito.

At DVC in Concord I planted Longans, Guavas, Mango, Avocado, and Jackfruit (why not) outdoors.  The Mango and Avocado are relatively protected because they are up against a building.  They get more frost in Concord (maybe comparable to Marin) than I do here.  The Jackfruit seedlings are not surprisingly toast, but the rest are doing fine.  I also had Marula survive the winter outdoors there, with major damage but they bounced back fine.  This winter I'm keeping them protected.

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2017, 12:22:04 PM »
Hi Barath

Is there a reason why you don't see mature 20-30' mango,Mamey, Sugar Apple, Green Zapote, Garcinia, Jackfruit, Chico,Inga, Papaya, jaboticaba trees in SF area, we have plenty in Socal? Probably the same reason you don't see rows coconut trees here. There is zero historical evidence that any of these trees thrived in SF, why is that? Short term experiments on pots are good thing but they prove nothing   

Garcinia

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2017, 12:28:11 PM »
Hi Barath

Is there a reason why you don't see mature 20-30' mango,Mamey, Sugar Apple, Green Zapote, Garcinia, Jackfruit, Chico,Inga, Papaya, jaboticaba trees in SF area, we have plenty in Socal? Probably the same reason you don't see rows coconut trees here. There is zero historical evidence that any of these trees thrived in SF, why is that? Short term experiments on pots are good thing but they prove nothing   

Another forum member wrote this about large specimens in the bay area:

Seriously though, Garcinia, I've spent the last year focused on this issue and I planted a bunch of questionable "subtropical" fruit trees last year to see how they'll do. Before I get to that, I should mention some trees not on your list which I've seen large specimens around the Bay Area:

* Jaboticaba
* Cherry of the Rio Grande
* Suriname Cherry
* Cherimoya
* Green Sapote
* White Sapote
* Ice Cream Bean
The hardest plants to grow are often those most worth growing.

LivingParadise

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2017, 12:33:27 PM »
The definition of "tropical" is any plant that prefers a warmer climate than the one you live in. ;)

LOL - ain't that the truth! :)


It doesnt cost anything to be kind........

For some people in this forum, the cost of being polite is too rich for their blood... They choose to offend newcomers over and over again, and never change. And again and again, new people are turned off and leave the forum because they feel unwelcome and like they were publicly humiliated and made to look stupid for asking a question and being genuinely enthusiastic about loving to grow fruits.



Yes, one could have said it in a more gentle way, but technically, most of these fruits are not tropicals. I think it could easily be argued that any plant that can survive a freeze (regardless of where it originates) is not truly tropical, which means things like mangoes would not count either. But for the most part, I think people here are enthusiastic about all kinds of fruits (and also vegetables), and merely have a penchant for what grows in warm weather that they consider to be exotic - particularly things that like humidity and are not specifically desert fruit. But that includes a wide range of fruits, many of which may not be found in the typical grocery store outside of the true tropics latitude-wise, but also technically will not die with a freeze.

I would venture to say for instance, that some bananas are not really tropical, in that they can survive a freeze (or several), but that others are in that they really can't handle low temps. So it can be variety-specific, not just species-specific. A lot of species straddle the border, where some cultivars can take colder temps, and some can't.

Since you're open to things that are not specifically tropical, maybe these seemed obvious to you already, but you could include things like Olives, Almonds, etc. on the list. And many varieties of cacti. And grapes of course. But specifically muscadine grapes, which are a warmer-climate species.

The issue that you have is with not only freezes, but maintaining humidity, so I can't help too much with the list because I don't know a ton about growing tropicals in CA conditions. But, I do have a lot of experience growing various tropicals and sub-tropicals and even some temperates in humidity that never freezes with periods of drought.

Fortunately for you, there are a lot of CA growers here in this forum, and also zone pushers, so there is a good community to draw ideas from. I encourage you to push the zone and press your luck, if you don't mind losing a few plants, and see what you can make happen that nobody has before. People are discovering new things all the time. And sometimes, one particular plant can survive what the others couldn't, and you have a whole new variety on your hands. If you don't mind the sadness of plant death, failure is really success in my eyes. Failure is learning.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:35:05 PM by LivingParadise »

joehewitt

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2017, 12:37:33 PM »
JF, the way you lump all those trees together as if they're equally impossible is what creates confusion for us zone pushers. See, I have witnessed mature Jaboticaba, Inga, and Green Sapote trees up here, which makes me question whether the others might be possible as well. True, the odds are low, but there is enough uncertainty to warrant more experimentation.

I've noticed a trend where folks living in truly tropical or subtropical climates seem almost angry and resentful towards zone pushers, as if their pride is threatened. Like they're saying us northern dwellers can't have our cake and eat it too. I try to be sympathetic towards that mindset and not get into arguments, but I have to push back a little for the sake of not discouraging others from experimenting.

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2017, 12:39:07 PM »
I love to see prove of those 20-30 footers. White Zapote and some varieties of cados are no brainer that will fruit in the Carolinas the rest are more cold sensitive.

joehewitt

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2017, 12:50:13 PM »
Daniel (Californiatropicals on this forum) has a Green Sapote that is around 20' tall. Here's a pic:

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=21711.0

Jaboticaba takes a really long time to get to 20' tall but based on trunk thickness, the trees in Prusch Park (San Jose) and Quarry Lakes (Fremont) must be over 10 years old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I1DIMEIS-Y

Axel (of Cloudforest fame) had a very large Inga in Santa Cruz. It would freeze back and regrow every year until it became taller than his house, at which point it became very hardy. I couldn't find any pics but it's been discussed plenty on cloudforest.


LivingParadise

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2017, 12:52:56 PM »
Not a tropical for zone pushing, but for those who are in CA who are looking for more exotic fruits, I would definitely try some fruits that grow in Chile or cooler parts of Brazil, like for instance maqui berry, which is supposed to be good and also is extremely healthy. If I could fruit it here, I would, but I think it is actually too warm here for it to do well. So just another thought to throw out there as CA growers are looking to expand their collections.

NateTheGreat

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2017, 12:53:12 PM »
On the subject of mature trees, I've read claims online that there is a grove of mature tropicals on the peninsula at Quarry Lakes Park in Fremont with among other things a mature fruiting jackfruit, mango, and jaboticaba. I'm sure being on the lakefront helps.

Garcinia

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2017, 01:01:24 PM »
Daniel (Californiatropicals on this forum) has a Green Sapote that is around 20' tall. Here's a pic:

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=21711.0

Jaboticaba takes a really long time to get to 20' tall but based on trunk thickness, the trees in Prusch Park (San Jose) and Quarry Lakes (Fremont) must be over 10 years old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I1DIMEIS-Y

Axel (of Cloudforest fame) had a very large Inga in Santa Cruz. It would freeze back and regrow every year until it became taller than his house, at which point it became very hardy. I couldn't find any pics but it's been discussed plenty on cloudforest.

My plan for my Ingas is too keep them indoors or in the greenhouse until they're too big, after which they should be hardy enough to survive outdoors.
The hardest plants to grow are often those most worth growing.

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Re: What tropicals would survive outdoors here?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2017, 01:53:19 PM »
JF, the way you lump all those trees together as if they're equally impossible is what creates confusion for us zone pushers. See, I have witnessed mature Jaboticaba, Inga, and Green Sapote trees up here, which makes me question whether the others might be possible as well. True, the odds are low, but there is enough uncertainty to warrant more experimentation.

I've noticed a trend where folks living in truly tropical or subtropical climates seem almost angry and resentful towards zone pushers, as if their pride is threatened. Like they're saying us northern dwellers can't have our cake and eat it too. I try to be sympathetic towards that mindset and not get into arguments, but I have to push back a little for the sake of not discouraging others from experimenting.

Why would we be angry? More like jealous you guys have a long distinguished tradition of agriculture that is unmatched. We want accurate information. The fact is there is little to no precedent for growing the type of tropicals you guys are attempting and there is a reason for that.

 

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