Author Topic: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid  (Read 2075 times)

SoCal2warm

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going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« on: May 06, 2019, 01:55:53 PM »
I'm going to attempt to cross Green Gage plum (6n) with Sweet Cherry (2n), which should result in a 4n chromosome offspring.
 Then cross that with sour cherry (4n), in this case Juliet in the Romance series of cherry hybrids.

SoCal2warm

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 09:51:39 PM »
Here's a Juliet (Romance series cherry) branch that was just grafted onto Yoshino flowering cherry:



The Romance series cherries have basically 25% P. fruticosa ancestry, putting them in a separate but closely related family to sour cherry.

Curiousgardener23

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2023, 10:18:22 PM »
Were you able to do this?

Till

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2023, 06:45:44 PM »
I have read in the internet that these croses were already done for serval times with success but that the taste of the hybrids was usually plumlike so not the new thing that was desired. There should, however, be a variety called "Nadia" with cherry taste or at least plum AND cherry taste. I do not exactly remember.

vnomonee

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2023, 09:44:57 PM »
I recently bought "cherry plums" at the grocery store. Are these just a plum variety or are they a hybrid? They looked like giant cherries but tasted like plum.





« Last Edit: June 21, 2023, 09:47:55 PM by vnomonee »

Till

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2023, 06:13:44 PM »
The German word "Kirschpflaume" (litterally "cherry plum") is applied to Prunus cerasifera. But I don't know the English meaning. It seems, however, the same as in German. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prunus_cerasifera
« Last Edit: June 25, 2023, 06:16:07 PM by Till »

vnomonee

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2023, 08:46:23 PM »
I found this

"The Verry Cherry Plum is a proprietary variety developed and exclusively for us by a private breeder, Zaiger's of Modesto, California" "The Cherry Plum is a unique new fruit that's jam-packed with flavor from some of your favorite cherries and plums. Grown in the heart of California's bountiful San Joaquin Valley, the fruit is a delicious natural cross between several varieties of plums and cherries, including Bing and Stella cherries."


Curiousgardener23

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2023, 08:20:29 PM »
One interesting thing about plums is that plum varieties have different numbers of chromosome sets. Some are hexaploid while others are tetraploid and diploid. Prunus domestica (which includes Green Gage plum) is hexaploid. This means that they have 6 sets of chromosomes. Many other members of the prunus genus including prunus avium (sweet cherry) are diploid (2 sets). I think that it has been established that diploid plums such as Prunus salicina (sometimes called Japanese plum) can be crossed with sweet cherry. Diploid plums can also be crossed with other diploid members of the prunus genus like prunus armeniaca (apricots). As I understand it, most plum crosses available today are crosses between diploid members of the genus. I saw that it has been thought that the hexaploid Prunus domestica might have been the result of a natural hybrid of Prunus cerasifera (diploid) and Prunus spinosa (tetraploid- 4 sets). This seems to indicate that crosses between members with different chromosome sets is possible but I am not aware of any of these crosses being actively pursued. It would be really interesting to know if other fruit producing hexaploid plants could result from diploid X tetraploid crosses or if hexaploid x diploid or tetraploid offspring could produce fruit. The original post in this thread was about an attempt to cross hexaploid and diploid so I wonder if that succeeded and what resulted.

Galatians522

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2023, 09:45:43 PM »
Ploidy level has less impact than pairing capability. For example Duke cherries are a fruitful hybrid between sweet cherry (diploid) and sour cherries (tetraploid). They are triploid as a result, and the seeds are sterile 99.99% of the time or more. Actually, sour cherries are thought to be an ancient chance result of a hybrid between sweet cherries and a bitter wild cherry (Prunus fruticosa). Under very rare circumstances plants can undergo a ploidy level mutation that allows them to produce fertile offspring. One example of this in plant breeding is the development of the southern highbush blueberry. The plants that were combined should never have been able to produce fertile offspring, but after thousands of pollinations the breeders ended up with over a dozen plants that formed the "genetic bridge" that they needed.

Curiousgardener23

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2023, 10:46:11 PM »
Are there reliable ways to determine pairing capability? It seems that diploid plums readily cross with other diploid plums for example both Prunus salicina x cerasifera and Prunus salicina x Prunus americana crosses are well established as cold hardy plum varieties for cultivation. It might just be a coincidence that the diploid plums have good pairing capability or that Prunus salicina is flexible for pairing. Given that Prunus domestica is thought to be a hybrid of Prunus cerasifera and Prunus spinosa, would it be a reasonable guess that it could have pairing capability with one of those two potential parents despite the chromosome set mismatch? If so, do you know of any documentation of successful crosses of prunus domestica back with cerasifera or spinosa?

nexxogen

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2023, 12:08:38 PM »
I found this

"The Verry Cherry Plum is a proprietary variety developed and exclusively for us by a private breeder, Zaiger's of Modesto, California" "The Cherry Plum is a unique new fruit that's jam-packed with flavor from some of your favorite cherries and plums. Grown in the heart of California's bountiful San Joaquin Valley, the fruit is a delicious natural cross between several varieties of plums and cherries, including Bing and Stella cherries."

Based on this, it's most likely the "Sweet Treat" pluerry.

Curiousgardener23

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2023, 08:55:09 PM »
Just a follow up, I found a document titled Interspecific Hybridization of Prunus by Richard E.C. Layne and Wayne B. Sherman published in HortScience, Vol. 21(1), February 1986. If I am understanding the document correctly, it seems to indicate that P. spinosa x P. cerasifera ; P. spinosa x P. salicina ; P. cerasifera x P. domestica; and P. domestica x P. spinosa have all been created. The document does indicate that from a fruit cultivation perspective the hybrids tend to be less productive, may have pollination issues, and likely multiple backcrossing cycles would be needed to provide a good fruit. Given this, it seems possible to cross P. avium with P. domestica but there is a real possibility that the resulting plant could produce a poor fruit or have fertility problems. In the event that the plant were to be fertile, it seems it could then be crossed with P. cerasus, so the original post could be possible.

Another thought is that P. cerasifera X P. salicina is known to be a good combination. It also seems that commercially viable P. avium X P. salicina has been achieved so potentially P. avium could be crossed with P. domestica by using P. cerasifera and P. salicina as bridges for pairing capability.

Galatians522

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2023, 09:28:27 PM »
Just a follow up, I found a document titled Interspecific Hybridization of Prunus by Richard E.C. Layne and Wayne B. Sherman published in HortScience, Vol. 21(1), February 1986. If I am understanding the document correctly, it seems to indicate that P. spinosa x P. cerasifera ; P. spinosa x P. salicina ; P. cerasifera x P. domestica; and P. domestica x P. spinosa have all been created. The document does indicate that from a fruit cultivation perspective the hybrids tend to be less productive, may have pollination issues, and likely multiple backcrossing cycles would be needed to provide a good fruit. Given this, it seems possible to cross P. avium with P. domestica but there is a real possibility that the resulting plant could produce a poor fruit or have fertility problems. In the event that the plant were to be fertile, it seems it could then be crossed with P. cerasus, so the original post could be possible.

Another thought is that P. cerasifera X P. salicina is known to be a good combination. It also seems that commercially viable P. avium X P. salicina has been achieved so potentially P. avium could be crossed with P. domestica by using P. cerasifera and P. salicina as bridges for pairing capability.

Yes, what you say makes sense. Plums hybridize the best with other plums. Peaches are a diploid prunus, by the way but hybridize with plums only with difficulty. Most wide crosses have low production and low pollen viability. Some are only possible with embryo rescue techniques. However, often the resulting hybrids can create a genetic bridge for exchanging DNA among the species.

Till

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2023, 05:37:28 PM »
I think Prunus domestica x Prunus spinosa crosses are quite common. I have found some intermediate forms near plum plantages.

As far as I know cultivated Prunus avium forms (sweet cherries) have different ploidity levels. They are not all diploid.

rosecongou

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2023, 02:18:02 PM »
Would it be possible to treat Duke cherries with one of those chromosome doubling solutions (colchine, and then there's another one?) to get a potentially fertile hexaploid that could potentially cross with a hexaploid european plum? Or treat a diploid sweet cherry in a similar way to make it a tetraploid, and cross it with a sour cherry, to get a tetraploid fertile sweet/sour cherry hybrid? Just throwing ideas out here.

Galatians522

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Re: going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2023, 04:13:32 PM »
Would it be possible to treat Duke cherries with one of those chromosome doubling solutions (colchine, and then there's another one?) to get a potentially fertile hexaploid that could potentially cross with a hexaploid european plum? Or treat a diploid sweet cherry in a similar way to make it a tetraploid, and cross it with a sour cherry, to get a tetraploid fertile sweet/sour cherry hybrid? Just throwing ideas out here.

Yes, those are possible. Embryo rescue might be necessary for a cherry x plum hybrid. On the other hand, fertile crosses have been between tetraploid Sweet Cherry (that was the result of cholochine chromosome doubling) and other tertraploid cherries. Actually, Sour Cherry is thought to be the result of a hybrid between Sweet Cherry and Mongolian Bitter Cherry (Prunus fruticosa) where the sweet cherry gamate did not reduce. Bitter cherry is a tetraploid species.