Does Cold Hardy Mango exist?

[Delvi83]

Somewhere I read that new Mango's cultivars were seleceted for their cold hardiness.
I know well that in South Florida the cold is not a problem for Mango, but I read (in the same site) that the new cultivars could be grown in a Mediterranean climate and I guess could be tried in many places of USA were "normal" Mango would die.


Does someone know anything about that? Is it true or just advertising? If true, how is their cold hardiness compared to other not cold hardy cultivars?

Thanks

[Squam256]

No

[Raulglezruiz]

Do a search in the forum for cold hardy mangos or Tim Thompson professor
I think he is experimenting in California for cold hardy ,probably too soon to evaluate but he is going towards that area....

[fyliu]

Tim Thompson uses cold hardy rootstock and cultivars. That's the idea. Raulglezruiz is right about these being unproven right now.

[Delvi83]

Yes, it might be him.....but did someone try these plants in place where temperature can (rarely) go below 32F ? Which are the results?

[greenman62]

ive done some reading on this, and some people report Bailys Marvel is more cold hardy

http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/68633.html

other say they had one, and there was no difference.

I am pushing the border in New Orleans
so, even 2-3 degrees difference may help me.
My Florigon from seed is 3ft tall. it got down to 28F last winter (for a few hours)
and i noticed only very minor leaf damage.

I was thinking that Northern India gets about the same temps we get here,
so, i bought a few North India seed - varieties...
i got Neelam, Alphonso, and  Kesar

am still looking for these  seeds
"Alampur Baneshan", Chausa, Malda , Samar Behisht, Chaunsa, Anwar Rator, Langra,
, Totapuri,  Pairi,  Mulgoa, Bombey Green,  Fazli

[bsbullie]

No

People should heed this advice...

[mangomaniac2]

All mango varieties are similar in cold hardiness..some trees can fare better than others but is not variety specific.  Key to mango during winter is frost protection below 38 deg farenheit and make sure to stay above 25 deg farenheit.  Water well during cold spells and make sure tree has plenty of nutrients including silica before cold arrives. Very simple really..they are pretty hardy. Fungicide application during winter is critical..I recommend alternating organocide plant doctor and liqui-cop every two weeks when temps reach 55 deg farenheit or lower.

[Delvi83]

As for the Avocados why could not be possible also for Mango to find cold-hardy cultivars? With the selection something could happen or may be still exist but have to be discovered (Cultivars of North India, near to Hymalaya or something else)

[simon_grow]

I'm not sure if a cold hardy variety exists now but I'm very confident it can happen with more selection. There was an article from a previous post that stated on of the major factors for cold hardiness was the size of the tree but it also mentioned that Kent or Kent seedlings, I forget which appeared to have less cold damage in a field planting with multiple varieties.

I'm going to hold judgment on the MangoProfessors work on new cold hardy mango selections until I see evidence that his plants are/are not in fact cold hardy. I give him props for even attempting this. His fault is that he was selling these supposedly cold hardy mango varieties without releasing much or any(?) supporting evidence to prove the claims. But then again, nobody that I'm aware of has disproven his claims yet either. If he is able to select a strain that is even a few degrees more cold tolerant, there is the potential to benefit many of us here in this hobby and also possibly those on the commercial growing side.

I threw this out there before and it's absolutely not proven but it would be interesting to see if there are different technologies that can be used to increase cold tolerance that currently haven't even been considered before. Would multiple rootstocks help or better yet will Double Stone Grafted plants with two fully intact taproots help with cold tolerance?

Will establishment of a strong microorganism community/ mycorrhizal fungi community create just enough heat to enable a plant to survive? How about watering the rhizosphere with molasses and other microorganism foods before a frost in hopes of stimulating microorganism activity before an expected frost. Many people are already aware of the heat generated by a good active compost.

Simon

[Mr. Clean]

Maybe.  If you are willing to wait years for the results, but I believe it might be possible with enough effort and time. 

There are things you can do to prepare for a cold snap with existing mango varieties, such as heavily irrigating the land a few days prior to trap heat in the ground.  Using this method, I saw 3 gal size mango tree survive as low as 28F without much damage.  This was the lowest of an over-night cold snap; there was frost on the ground.  It will only work when you have a few days of advance warning to prepare and probably will not work for more than a few hours of cold and if there is no wind.  Good luck!

[MangoFang]

I agree with you Simon.  The mango professor's whole effort may not yield a thing as far as
more cold hardiness in mangoes, but if there's a chance then let's just see with the test of time
and plantings how they fair.  If the way he did it was through some kind of natural selection by
planting thousands of mango seeds to see what would pop up with this characteristic, then
something could result from it.  Yes, it may take years and having them planted in lots of diff.
places to determine if they truly exhibit that ability.....

...but as of now, I'm not sure anyone can claim better cold hardiness.  It need lots of diverse
field testing....and of course the other thing is taste, and they may not be up there with the current
top tier mangoes, but for many that may not matter just as long they can get a mango tree to
survive and produce something decent tasting....


Gary

[Droshi]

Seedling selections can only do so much. Look at the example of pawpaw vs sugar apple. They may be related, but one is truly cold hardy and one isn't. Sure some varieties of sugar apple may grow a little on the cooler side a little better, but if you're really looking to take it out of it's zone, pawpaw actually goes dormant in the winter in places that get cold. I think this is why you won't see as much of an effect on something like mango, unless cross-breeding with some other fruit totally is possible. I think pawpaw and other annona sp. can cross breed, but dunno if the fruit is stable or worthwhile.

Just my opinion, I'm not exactly a botanist or anything.

[simon_grow]

I just remembered that I saw somewhere that citrus growers would use overhead watering on their citrus trees in order to encase their trees with a thin layer of protective ice. The ice actually prevented serious damage but I forget the details.

Simon

[DurianLover]

ive done some reading on this, and some people report Bailys Marvel is more cold hardy

http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/68633.html

other say they had one, and there was no difference.

I am pushing the border in New Orleans
so, even 2-3 degrees difference may help me.
My Florigon from seed is 3ft tall. it got down to 28F last winter (for a few hours)
and i noticed only very minor leaf damage.

I was thinking that Northern India gets about the same temps we get here,
so, i bought a few North India seed - varieties...
i got Neelam, Alphonso, and  Kesar

am still looking for these  seeds
"Alampur Baneshan", Chausa, Malda , Samar Behisht, Chaunsa, Anwar Rator, Langra,
, Totapuri,  Pairi,  Mulgoa, Bombey Green,  Fazli

The term "North India"  encompasses vast geographical area with very different climate zones. I think you and few others have pretty skewed idea and assume some kind of near temperate climate while in reality every famous mango growing region I can think of does not experience a drop below 40 F at any time of the year.  Alphonso is just about worst candidate. It originates and primary grown in a very tropical climate even though the area is still considered North India.

[Delvi83]

Yes, sure....but may be on the border between frost free zone (Mango Zone) and frost zone (Not Mango Zone) there is a place where there could be very light and rare frost episodes. I think a narrow valley in the winter, with strong thermal inversion...

I always wonder why for Avocado cultivars there is a range of hardiness, but not for Mangos?

[JF]

ive done some reading on this, and some people report Bailys Marvel is more cold hardy

http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/68633.html

other say they had one, and there was no difference.

I am pushing the border in New Orleans
so, even 2-3 degrees difference may help me.
My Florigon from seed is 3ft tall. it got down to 28F last winter (for a few hours)
and i noticed only very minor leaf damage.

I was thinking that Northern India gets about the same temps we get here,
so, i bought a few North India seed - varieties...
i got Neelam, Alphonso, and  Kesar

am still looking for these  seeds
"Alampur Baneshan", Chausa, Malda , Samar Behisht, Chaunsa, Anwar Rator, Langra,
, Totapuri,  Pairi,  Mulgoa, Bombey Green,  Fazli

The term "North India"  encompasses vast geographical area with very different climate zones. I think you and few others have pretty skewed idea and assume some kind of near temperate climate while in reality every famous mango growing region I can think of does not experience a drop below 40 F at any time of the year.  Alphonso is just about worst candidate. It originates and primary grown in a very tropical climate even though the area is still considered North India.

This is not true. Our friend Behl is from Punjab were temps drop 3-4c regularly in the months of January and February much colder than South Florida and SoCal.....I'll let him chime in. The subject has been discuss in other threads delvi83 needs to do a forum search

[greenman62]

The term "North India"  encompasses vast geographical area with very different climate zones. I think you and few others have pretty skewed idea and assume some kind of near temperate climate while in reality every famous mango growing region I can think of does not experience a drop below 40 F at any time of the year.  Alphonso is just about worst candidate. It originates and primary grown in a very tropical climate even though the area is still considered North India.

i actually included Alphonso because it is one of the only seeds i can get from North India
but it is grown in Jammu which gets recent historical (low) temps of 27F
http://www.myweather2.com/City%E2%80%90Town/India/Jammu/climate%E2%80%90profile.aspx?month=1

I looked at different areas within North India... Jammu, Himachal Pradesh
http://www.nhb.gov.in/report_files/mango/MANGO.htm

My time costs me nothing, mango seeds cost me a couple bucks each
the last time i had a real mango was 6 years ago.
$1.68 each at the store for crappy mango is my option. Twice a year i get mango i can palate.

To me, obviously there are upper ranges where mango can not be grown because its too cold, and areas where they are grown.
i would assume in between there are areas that mango encounter cold temps.
i would like to learn from those areas.
If i try and fail, nothing terrible is lost. If i dont try, then i have already failed.

In India, Hayes (5) reports that "some varieties" will withstand 22 °F. Singh and Singh
(9) report that, for a grass minimum of 25.5°F, vigorous trees suffered less than those of dwarf
varieties and that varieties behaved according to the size of their trees, the amount of late growth
and some "other" factors. Langra was found relatively resistant and Dasheri somewhat less
so. Jawada (4) found Langra and some other north-Indian varieties more resistant than others.

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1964-vol-77/379-384%20(OPPENHEIMER).pdf


Cool temperatures below 17°C produce abnormal and non-viable pollen grains.
The prevaculate stage of meiosis during microsporogenesis appears to be most sensitive to temperatures  below 10°C.
 Cool temperatures also adversely aect germination and pollen tube growth, which is completely inhibited at temperatures  below 15°C
(Issarakraisila and Considine, 1994).Low sex ratio (proportion of hermaphrodite and male flowers) contributes significantly
to low yields in some cultivars (Singh et al. 1966, 1965). Cool temperature during inflorescence development reduces
the number of perfect flowers and these flowers may produce aborted, deformed and fused ovaries,
 which does not happen above 17°C. Polyembryonic cultivars suffer more from low temperature than monoembryonic
 (Whiley and Schaer 1997). Occasional low temperature during flowering causes embryo abortion in areas of Brazil,
 Peru and Chile (Sauco 2000)
http://www.academia.edu/5000793/Tropical_Fruit_Tree_Species_and_Climate_Change_Phenological_Responses_to_Temperature_and_Rainfall_A_Case_Study_of_Mango

[Pan Dulce]

I am 30 minutes north of Merritt Island, and my record low is 27 degrees.  We normally only experience that temp for an hour or 2 just before sunrise during freeze events.  During the winters of 2009 through 2010, we experienced that temp for 3 to 4 hours per night over a dozen nights during each of those winters, with plenty of other 30 degree nights as well.  I saw mango trees killed to the ground, but I know of at least 30 adult size trees that only experienced leaf burn with no over head protection of any sort.  These adult trees are 20 to 30 feet tall.  Only 3 trees that I know of are near the intercoastal waterway, thus gaining its protection.  All the other trees are at least 2 miles away and none of these trees are near any lakes. 

[ScottR]

Brief periods of cold can be taken by mature Mango's but what kills them is long duration cold which Ca. get's every now and then!!
Except S. Ca. very rare to get arctic blast but has happened in past history!!! Central Coast or above Santa Barbara pretty much get's to cold for Mango's to grow even if they can take brief cold down to 28F>, so until some one like Tim or someone else can breed a cold Mango I have my doubt's that they can be grown in cold winter climate's without extra protection.

[behlgarden]

I grew up in Northern India and am familiar with growth habbits of mangoes. Northern part that includes Jammu & Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, and Punjab all grow mangoes up to 3000 feet elevation and survive occational snow, and sub 30 degree temps. Chaunsa is one of the variety that does great in cold areas.

Other parts of Northern India that are plains, also get dry frost and mango groves do well without any measurable damage. In our family home, we have 4 mango trees and all have survived sub 30 temps for past 10 years.  One reason could be occasional rain and gloomy weather in foothills of himalayas where temps do drop below freezing but gets helped by overcast and rain/snow.

[DurianLover]

The term "North India"  encompasses vast geographical area with very different climate zones. I think you and few others have pretty skewed idea and assume some kind of near temperate climate while in reality every famous mango growing region I can think of does not experience a drop below 40 F at any time of the year.  Alphonso is just about worst candidate. It originates and primary grown in a very tropical climate even though the area is still considered North India.

This is not true. Our friend Behl is from Punjab were temps drop 3-4c regularly in the months of January and February much colder than South Florida and SoCal.....I'll let him chime in. The subject has been discuss in other threads delvi83 needs to do a forum search

Actually that's what exactly I had in mind 3-4 C,  just slightly inaccurately converted to Fahrenheit for an American to understand. Should have been 37-40 F.  Now, that's the climate in famous areas for mangoes, but if Behl says there are trees surviving at foothills of Himalayas not going to argue about that. He knows better.

[JF]

I agree with you Simon.  The mango professor's whole effort may not yield a thing as far as
more cold hardiness in mangoes, but if there's a chance then let's just see with the test of time
and plantings how they fair.  If the way he did it was through some kind of natural selection by
planting thousands of mango seeds to see what would pop up with this characteristic, then
something could result from it.  Yes, it may take years and having them planted in lots of diff.
places to determine if they truly exhibit that ability.....

...but as of now, I'm not sure anyone can claim better cold hardiness.  It need lots of diverse
field testing....and of course the other thing is taste, and they may not be up there with the current
top tier mangoes, but for many that may not matter just as long they can get a mango tree to
survive and produce something decent tasting....


Gary

Gary

The Problem with Tim is he claims he trialed mangos from all over the world for cold hardiness before he launched his breading, more accurately Kent, Haden Tommy store bought seeds, project. He actually scoured the usda grin for budwood and claims none survived our climate lol....this motivated his breading program. As Behl points out Chausan might be a true cold hardy mango as well as Manohar(seedling of Chaunsa)anwar ratol, dussehri and Sindhri( only one available in the GRIN). These Indian and Pakistani mangos are probably as close to cold hardy mangos that you could find.

[greenman62]

'Mallika' is the result of the hybridization of the Indian mango varieties 'Neelam' and 'Dasheri'.


Chaunsa,  is  common in Pakistan it seems...

well, if i do buy one, it may be a Mallika.
i can be a guinea pig to see if it will survive New Orleans

[Tropheus76]

Is there a way to get hold of these Indian/Pakistani mangos or are they science station type stuff only. I am in 9b and keep a Graham in a pot, but would really rather have an in-ground that doesn't freeze to the ground every year from the slightest freeze.