The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Gone tropo on March 18, 2021, 12:07:49 AM
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This is the tropical fruit forum and the Durian is undisputed KING, i see very little discussion on Durian and much discussion on mangoes (2nd rate fruit). Who are growing durians out there? What is your favourite? Are kampung Durian worth growing to you or will you only grow clones? How difficult are Durian to grow in your area?
We have great trouble accessing clones here, my observations with seedlings is that they are very very easy to get started and appear quite hardy to me.
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A big part of that is because only a small proportion of members live in places where durian can grow. Mangoes on the other hand grow in much cooler areas at higher latitudes well outside the tropics and a high proportion of members can grow mangoes. Mango fatigue is something a few other tropical members have commented on also.
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Hi Mike yeh i realise most of the members are from south florida so Im kinda giving the yanks a bit of a ribbing about the mangoes (although they are 2nd rate compared to durian!!!) Maybe we need an ultra tropical sub section. I reckon peter salleras could get red prawn to fruit in florida though.
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Florida might not have many areas with the right soils, warm enough winters and high rainfall and heavy persistent humidity that durians like. I think there are only a few possibilities for more cold tolerant varieties and species worthy of a trial and these have been discussed in past threads.
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According to youtube video comments Jackfruit is King over Durian but then I suspect the reason being many have yet to try Durian or a Excellent variety of Durian that would make them rate it higher.
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Hi Mike yeh i realise most of the members are from south florida so Im kinda giving the yanks a bit of a ribbing about the mangoes (although they are 2nd rate compared to durian!!!) Maybe we need an ultra tropical sub section. I reckon peter salleras could get red prawn to fruit in florida though.
Once I can locate a Red Prawn then it's game on... same with the most cold tolerant varieties. Curious about Arancillo...
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In Costa Rica there exists a lot of interest in durians. Last year total I planted around 600 durian seeds for grafting. Most of the interest is in grafted trees. They’re available but with very limited selection. We also plant select seeds to try and generate new, locally selected varieties. It’s a slow, multigenerational project! But we’re into it.
I’ve done two trips to Malaysia in the last 3 years doing farm stays at durian farms, absorbing what I can.
Here, people will drive 6 hours or more to get durian, rent houses nearby for the season. It’s motivational and we’re convinced it’s the future for small fruit farmers in this area.
Peter
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In this area jackfruit gets only half the price of champedek or terap. The next best fruit to have for sale at the moment is mangosteen.
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Hi Mike yeh i realise most of the members are from south florida so Im kinda giving the yanks a bit of a ribbing about the mangoes (although they are 2nd rate compared to durian!!!) Maybe we need an ultra tropical sub section. I reckon peter salleras could get red prawn to fruit in florida though.
i like that idea for an ultra tropical sub. id spend a lot more time on this site if there was a way to filter. its easier to just spend time on hawaii tropical fruit growers facebook. where everyone has the same playing ground
im planting 4 acres of durian here in hawaii. got a couple grafts but mostly focusing on seedling genetics. its gonna be fun! durian is the undeniable king
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Four acres is pret. good size really. Lots of commercial durian farms in Malaysia are about that size and they are doing pretty well.
Fortunately durian is easy to top work and thus very agile. Superior material can easily be used to convert trees that don’t show a lot of promise. I think 2-3 years to be back in production at a commercial level. This last year I’ve planted 15 select seedlings from Penang, hoping for something fantastic!
I have 3 trees older than 25 years in production. From those 3 I harvested 600kg the last season!
Peter
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Finca,
I am hoping that you will succeed and do well. It would be much easier to come to Costa Rica to try out durians than to travel to Malaysia for me. I love how you appreciate that it's a generational project. Keep up the good work.
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Very sad that Panoramic fruit farm get the impact of Maria Hurricane. In 2017 summer the farm get a profit of $20,000 and was the beginning. They had over 200 trees ,now about 5 survived. The only fruit that they export now is mangosteen. Resilient tree.
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For some reason I though the durian trees at Panoramic did ok. This is very sad.
I have a potted durian tree that is 7 ft tall that is from a seed collected at Panoramic Farms in 2017. It is growing under shade cloth but otherwise unprotected. It has been 40F a few mornings this year. The temperature does not seem to bother it. My neglect has been the only thing holding it back. I didn't expect it to survive and did not fertilize it once in 3.5 years. It is a survivor so I am giving it better care now. I think I have the humidity and rainfall. My soil, being alkaline, and phytophthora would be additional challenges beyond temperature. I would love to try to grow an air-layered or grafted tree which I might get lucky and keep that alive long enough to fruit. I don't think a seedling has a snowball's chance here if they take 12+ years to fruit.
Very sad that Panoramic fruit farm get the impact of Maria Hurricane. In 2017 summer the farm get a profit of $20,000 and was the beginning. They had over 200 trees ,now about 5 survived. The only fruit that they export now is mangosteen. Resilient tree.
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Peter Salleras addressed the question on how he would grow durian in florida when asked by durian writer (lindsay gasik), PH would need to be adjusted down into the 6 range which im guessing would involve a fair bit of work, he would trellis them as florida is prone to hurricanes as is QLD where he grows, he would then utilise covered cropping over the winter and go with a variety such as red prawn, durio macrantha which tested best in cold.
Spencerw like you im going to grow a few grafted varieties and then a bunch of seedlings and see what i get.
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I wish I can have durian in Florida and be able to participate in durian discussion
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This is territory that has been worked over before. One of these decades a Floridian in the right spot will trial the prime contenders like red prawn, D.kinabaluensis, D,macrantha, lomg and lin Laplae and a couple of others that show some cold tolerance. These are all hard to get types and I have no doubt a few would succeed in Florida with the right preparation and barring calamities.
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Many things can be accomplished in agriculture.
But it’s interesting that the areas in Asia where durian has been cultivated traditionally are mostly outside of the hurricane/cyclone belt. The furthest north that I know of where durians are being grown successfully in Central America is at about 15 degrees in Guatemala. Although Central America would appear suitable for durian, and it can be, there are many areas with a strong dry season and overwhelming dry winds. Jakfruit, mangoes, etc. do fine there but not durian, mangosteen, etc.
Durian could probably be grown in Southern Mexico but I’ve not heard of it.
A large beautiful durian tree loaded with fruit is a wonderous sight. I don’t think I’m ready to see the industrialized cable infrastructure with the poor durian branches strapped to it....
Peter
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The main durian growing area in Australia is between the latitudes of 16s to 19s and that is in cyclone alley. Hawaii although maritime/trade wind littoral in its climate is in the 20sn latitude. We are talking about the varieties that can stretch it further.There is a wide variety of cold tolerances in durian varieties probably reflecting the genetic diversity. While durians are of equatorial origin and the maritime continent might not have a new world equivalent in terms of heat generation, Florida is not out of the question.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ/Screenshot-2021-03-19-17-28-17.png) (https://postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ)
Orlando, Florida. zone push?
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I think that picture is from southeast Florida, not Orlando. Orlando is central Florida and would require a freeze tolerant durian.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ/Screenshot-2021-03-19-17-28-17.png) (https://postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ)
Orlando, Florida. zone push?
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This is the tropical fruit forum....i see very little discussion on Durian and much discussion on mangoes (2nd rate fruit).
Once normal travel resumes, a trip to Florida will cure this problem.
With that said, I’ve had Penang, Borneo, Singapore Durian and I absolutely crushed them. They give mango a run for their money...
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Would or does the processing required for export effect the quality of Durian.
Is there a dwarf variety of Durian that would be suitable for intensive farming
Is the band Durian Durian from Australia.Lol
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This is territory that has been worked over before. One of these decades a Floridian in the right spot will trial the prime contenders like red prawn, D.kinabaluensis, D,macrantha, lomg and lin Laplae and a couple of others that show some cold tolerance. These are all hard to get types and I have no doubt a few would succeed in Florida with the right preparation and barring calamities.
We feel we have the ability but cannot locate a cold tolerant variety, looking for Red Prawn first and foremost. Do you have any knowledge of the cultivar known as Arancillo Mike?
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Would or does the processing required for export effect the quality of Durian.
Is there a dwarf variety of Durian that would be suitable for intensive farming
Is the band Durian Durian from Australia.Lol
Durio macrantha supposedly produces much smaller trees that proved far more cyclone resistant on zappalas farm in bellenden ker qld.
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Yeah macrantha is smaller and handles cyclones better. Arancillo is a philipine favourite which was derived from monthong I believe. I haven't seen any around here and wonder why they havent been in the mainstream considering the positive reviews they get.
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Could someone please describe the flavor of durian? Not the offensive aspect (well you can include that), but WHAT MAKES IT SO APPEALING AND DELICIOUS? ??? ??? I generally like weird flavors that half the population can't stand (e.g., cilantro) so I imagine I would like durian.
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It is pretty easy to get a piece to try. Go to an asian market and they will have small frozen pieces for sale in the freezer section. Not as good as fresh but cheaper and available.
Could someone please describe the flavor of durian? Not the offensive aspect (well you can include that), but WHAT MAKES IT SO APPEALING AND DELICIOUS? ??? ??? I generally like weird flavors that half the population can't stand (e.g., cilantro) so I imagine I would like durian.
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It is pretty easy to get a piece to try. Go to an asian market and they will have small frozen pieces for sale in the freezer section. Not as good as fresh but cheaper and available.
Could someone please describe the flavor of durian? Not the offensive aspect (well you can include that), but WHAT MAKES IT SO APPEALING AND DELICIOUS? ??? ??? I generally like weird flavors that half the population can't stand (e.g., cilantro) so I imagine I would like durian.
Of course! What's wrong with me? Thanks, Brandon.
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Could someone please describe the flavor of durian? Not the offensive aspect (well you can include that), but WHAT MAKES IT SO APPEALING AND DELICIOUS? ??? ??? I generally like weird flavors that half the population can't stand (e.g., cilantro) so I imagine I would like durian.
Each Durian has it's nuances but in essence I would describe it as a carmelized onion custard log, some are more sweet and some are more bitter/pungent with more of the onion flavor smacking your tastebuds around.
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Could someone please describe the flavor of durian? Not the offensive aspect (well you can include that), but WHAT MAKES IT SO APPEALING AND DELICIOUS? ??? ??? I generally like weird flavors that half the population can't stand (e.g., cilantro) so I imagine I would like durian.
Each Durian has it's nuances but in essence I would describe it as a carmelized onion custard log, some are more sweet and some are more bitter/pungent with more of the onion flavor smacking your tastebuds around.
How many different ways is Durian prepared?
Juice jelly are only eating out of hand?
Have you ever purchased any locally from an Asian store that met minimal standards for you?
If it's like the store boughten mango scenario I will not even bother. One bite from a store-bought mango goes straight to the rubbish can.
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The main durian growing area in Australia is between the latitudes of 16s to 19s and that is in cyclone alley. Hawaii although maritime/trade wind littoral in its climate is in the 20sn latitude. We are talking about the varieties that can stretch it further.There is a wide variety of cold tolerances in durian varieties probably reflecting the genetic diversity. While durians are of equatorial origin and the maritime continent might not have a new world equivalent in terms of heat generation, Florida is not out of the question.
FYI Mike the area in Hawaii that i'm growing durian in is 19N. Hawaii islands stretch from 19 to 21 N. latitude. We're outside the hurricane zone and definitely warm enough. Main limiting factor on windward sides of the islands is sometimes too high of a rainfall, with no regular dry season. But like Peter i have old trees that have produced large quantities.
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Durians have been well discussed in the past. But because a large majority of the members are from Florida, and can't fruit it, and often have never tasted it, then they will often join in the discussion and get into the usual durian bashing routines. That's a bit of a turn off in most durian discussions. I find most of the people that bash durians have either never tasted it, or maybe the range of their experience is that they once tasted a frozen one.
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Most people I know have tried fresh local durian and for a majority, 80%?, it’s not their cup of tea. How much of this is due to uneven local selections I don’t know. But wow, those in the minority are fervent devotees of the fruit and use words like “uninitiated” and “inexperienced” to describe those who don’t like it.
Personally, I enjoy the flavor but despise the penetrating aroma. So much so that I won’t be planting any as the orchard is upwind of my house. I look forward to trying the best in SE Asia and hopefully having my mind changed. It’s a uniquely powerful and complex fruit!
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If all that you can get to form an opinion are tree-cut frozen Monthongs that are not even ripe and will never ripen properly, then you're guaranteed to hate it. Monthongs can be quite good, IF they're not cut from the tree BUT collected after they ripened and dropped from the tree. That's how it should be done IMO. I grew up enjoying durians in Penang, and even in Malaysia, some folks cannot tolerate the smell and flavor of durian. Superior culltivars like Musang King were not available in the US until 3 or 4 years go, and is still difficult to find. Other top-tiers like Black Thorn, Red Prawn, and Sultan have yet to make an appearance here... and these boys are expansive !!
In 2018-2019 Malaysia, the Black Thorn durian goes for Rm$70/kg, which works out to US$8/lb, which is well beyond the means of most people.
I will buy frozen Musang King ocassionally in Florida, at the low low price of US$13.00/lb. An averaged sized Musang King is about 5-6 lbs. Not only is it difficult to hunt down, not many folks here (my "sober" self included) will shell out at least 65 bucks for a fruit that I've never tried and may end up not liking. At these prices, i can't blame anybody for not trying the true "King of Fruits"
(https://i.postimg.cc/PpRjnRrk/Durian-2019.png) (https://postimg.cc/PpRjnRrk)
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If all that you can get to form an opinion are tree-cut frozen Monthongs that are not even ripe and will never ripen properly, then you're guaranteed to hate it. Monthongs can be quite good, IF they're not cut from the tree BUT collected after they ripened and dropped from the tree. That's how it should be done IMO. I grew up enjoying durians in Penang, and even in Malaysia, some folks cannot tolerate the smell and flavor of durian. Superior culltivars like Musang King were not available in the US until 3 or 4 years go, and is still difficult to find. Other top-tiers like Black Thorn, Red Prawn, and Sultan have yet to make an appearance here... and these boys are expansive !!
In 2018-2019 Malaysia, the Black Thorn durian goes for Rm$70/kg, which works out to US$8/lb, which is well beyond the means of most people.
I will buy frozen Musang King ocassionally in Florida, at the low low price of US$13.00/lb. An averaged sized Musang King is about 5-6 lbs. Not only is it difficult to hunt down, not many folks here (my "sober" self included) will shell out at least 65 bucks for a fruit that I've never tried and may end up not liking. At these prices, i can't blame anybody for not trying the true "King of Fruits"
(https://i.postimg.cc/PpRjnRrk/Durian-2019.png) (https://postimg.cc/PpRjnRrk)
About frozen durians, i would just add that most companies that sell frozen durians use the seconds or thirds, ofcourse it's not going to be top of the line. This is true of many frozen fruits, the stuff that can't be sold fresh is sent to be frozen.
Also i wonder how many people who have never in their lives tasted apples would like them if they had frozen Red delicious apples, or frozen Tommy Atkins, as their only way to gauge the qualities of these fruits?
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Durian is a fruit that not only grows in the tropics, it grows on people. The more you have the more you like and appreciate them. How many people don't like avocado when they first try it? Taste pretty bland and why isn't it sweet they might say. Durian is pasty/creamy and has a sweet and savoury balance with slightly bitter and nutty tones and even vanilla if you use your imagination. Sure the skin is aromatic and pungent but the flesh does not have any taste of cat urine, rotten onion, night soil, vomit and not blue cheese.Try to describe the taste of mushrooms to someone who hasn't tried them or even pate'. Having a cultured palate means you have to be a little adventurous and develop appreciations.
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I live in the area of the most expensive thai durians. My tree set 1 fruit so far, 2 years ago. Since then the durians drop when tiny, today the last one dropped so no harvest again this year.
Don't know what the problem is, getting tired of it.
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Sunny, when that happens here I usually tell people to start by adding calcium but really, there could be lots of problems. But where you live there must be a lot of local knowledge, perhaps the best in the world. Please check with agricultural professionals working with durian. I would be fascinated to hear what they have to say.
Peter
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Durian is a fruit that not only grows in the tropics, it grows on people. The more you have the more you like and appreciate them. How many people don't like avocado when they first try it? Taste pretty bland and why isn't it sweet they might say. Durian is pasty/creamy and has a sweet and savoury balance with slightly bitter and nutty tones and even vanilla if you use your imagination. Sure the skin is aromatic and pungent but the flesh does not have any taste of cat urine, rotten onion, night soil, vomit and not blue cheese.Try to describe the taste of mushrooms to someone who hasn't tried them or even pate'. Having a cultured palate means you have to be a little adventurous and develop appreciations.
Well said.
It is a taste that grows on you, like many things in life. I may add that the first taste of hot pepper should drive many people away. But if you give it a try and let your taste buds adapt, you may find it to be an enriching culinary experience.
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Sunny, when that happens here I usually tell people to start by adding calcium but really, there could be lots of problems. But where you live there must be a lot of local knowledge, perhaps the best in the world. Please check with agricultural professionals working with durian. I would be fascinated to hear what they have to say.
Peter
(https://i.postimg.cc/WFJwVFS9/durian2021.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFJwVFS9)
There they are, they just dropped. The only time i got one big durian from this tree was after 5-6 years when i bloomed for the 1st time after giving loads of fertilizers (kilo's) like they recommend for durian tree's. But that's for high productive tree's which i don't have yet. But i have a mongthong and that variety fruits the best if there are other varieties near. I don't know if we have other varieties near. Anyway it's a small tree since i keep it at 3 meters high so it doesn't take that much space.
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Durian is a fruit that not only grows in the tropics, it grows on people. The more you have the more you like and appreciate them. How many people don't like avocado when they first try it? Taste pretty bland and why isn't it sweet they might say. Durian is pasty/creamy and has a sweet and savoury balance with slightly bitter and nutty tones and even vanilla if you use your imagination. Sure the skin is aromatic and pungent but the flesh does not have any taste of cat urine, rotten onion, night soil, vomit and not blue cheese.Try to describe the taste of mushrooms to someone who hasn't tried them or even pate'. Having a cultured palate means you have to be a little adventurous and develop appreciations.
Totally agree. Definitely durian has grown on me and i become much more fond of them every year. Also i think over time you get better at picking out the best fruits, at peak ripeness, and get to know the best varieties. Unfortunately most of the best varieties are not yet available to most people in western countries.
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Also i wonder how many people who have never in their lives tasted apples would like them if they had frozen Red delicious apples, or frozen Tommy Atkins, as their only way to gauge the qualities of these fruits?
This is my worry, that I might be missing out for the reasons you describe. Tommy Atkins mangoes and Red Delicious apples really are terrible representatives. The only durian I've been able to try is what people mentioned is probably a Musan King shipped fresh from Thailand for... ~$75(!) at a local asian market. It truly smelled bad to me and everybody who I showed it to. And the taste wasn't great, though better than it smelled.
I'd love to try a top tier specimen and see how it compares.
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Also i wonder how many people who have never in their lives tasted apples would like them if they had frozen Red delicious apples, or frozen Tommy Atkins, as their only way to gauge the qualities of these fruits?
This is my worry, that I might be missing out for the reasons you describe. Tommy Atkins mangoes and Red Delicious apples really are terrible representatives. The only durian I've been able to try is what people mentioned is probably a Musan King shipped fresh from Thailand for... ~$75(!) at a local asian market. It truly smelled bad to me and everybody who I showed it to. And the taste wasn't great, though better than it smelled.
I'd love to try a top tier specimen and see how it compares.
Musang King is a top tier durian. But tasting one fresh off the tree is very different than one that was shipped from 10,000+ miles away. Like with most fruits, in order for them to reach market in presentable stage they are picked on immature side, and also sprayed with growth regulators to keep them from ripening too fast. Long cold storage also takes its toll on taste and texture.
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Oscar,
You may be mistaken... Most, if not all, Musang Kings that you come across in the US originate in Malaysia. More importantly, these durians are NOT harvested like you would a mature mango, i.e., picked/cut from the tree. Instead the durians are allowed to ripen on the tree and dropped (without human intervention). They are then collected and processed (flash frozen in liquid nitrogen) and shipped. Thai's do NOT like smelly durians--Malaysians, on the other hand, love the pungent aromatics of their cultivars. It's a dramatically different harvesting practice between Thais and Malaysians.
When ripe, the sections of ripe durians also tend split open fairly easily, especially at nose, which will desiccate the arils. The exporters circumvent the splitting tendency by rubber-banding the nose end of each fruit. Of course there's always going to be some loss in quality when you ship frozen fresh fruit to faraway places. But the eating experience of a thawed Musang King exceeds all expectations when compared to a Monthong. For some (like my wife), it justifies the price difference between $4.50/lb Monthong and $13/lb for Musang King in St. Pete. Mind you, I've had very good Monthongs in Thailand (per my tastebuds) when i can find tree-dropped (ripe) fruits, but these are extremely difficult to come by.
ps. Note the green rubber bands keeping the sections intact. The smaller vacuum-packed and frozen box is relatively cheaper at $24.00 per box.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQDwXMRw/durian1.png) (https://postimg.cc/hQDwXMRw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NK2gGG4X/d2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NK2gGG4X)
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Traditionally Thailand has been the only significant exporter of durian. If the Malaysians let the fruits drop, then load a container for freezing the fruit will be starting to ferment by the time it actually gets frozen. Liquid nitrogen is a game changer since it freezes the fruit in about 5 minutes. The biggest market by far is China and they are now asking for musang king.
Most Musang King in Malaysia is produced on small farms of 5 acres or less. However, larger farms are ramping up with MSK as well as Black Thorn which is starting to get the highest price on the market locally. Some farmers are ripping out oil palm to plant durian in its place.
Peter
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Oscar,
You may be mistaken... Most, if not all, Musang Kings that you come across in the US originate in Malaysia. More importantly, these durians are NOT harvested like you would a mature mango, i.e., picked/cut from the tree. Instead the durians are allowed to ripen on the tree and dropped (without human intervention). They are then collected and processed (flash frozen in liquid nitrogen) and shipped. Thai's do NOT like smelly durians--Malaysians, on the other hand, love the pungent aromatics of their cultivars. It's a dramatically different harvesting practice between Thais and Malaysians.
When ripe, the sections of ripe durians also tend split open fairly easily, especially at nose, which will desiccate the arils. The exporters circumvent the splitting tendency by rubber-banding the nose end of each fruit. Of course there's always going to be some loss in quality when you ship frozen fresh fruit to faraway places. But the eating experience of a thawed Musang King exceeds all expectations when compared to a Monthong. For some (like my wife), it justifies the price difference between $4.50/lb Monthong and $13/lb for Musang King in St. Pete. Mind you, I've had very good Monthongs in Thailand (per my tastebuds) when i can find tree-dropped (ripe) fruits, but these are extremely difficult to come by.
ps. Note the green rubber bands keeping the sections intact. The smaller vacuum-packed and frozen box is relatively cheaper at $24.00 per box.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQDwXMRw/durian1.png) (https://postimg.cc/hQDwXMRw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NK2gGG4X/d2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NK2gGG4X)
Interesting I wonder if they are sending these to Australia?? We dont have musang king here and I would like to try it.
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Oscar,
You may be mistaken... Most, if not all, Musang Kings that you come across in the US originate in Malaysia. More importantly, these durians are NOT harvested like you would a mature mango, i.e., picked/cut from the tree. Instead the durians are allowed to ripen on the tree and dropped (without human intervention). They are then collected and processed (flash frozen in liquid nitrogen) and shipped. Thai's do NOT like smelly durians--Malaysians, on the other hand, love the pungent aromatics of their cultivars. It's a dramatically different harvesting practice between Thais and Malaysians.
When ripe, the sections of ripe durians also tend split open fairly easily, especially at nose, which will desiccate the arils. The exporters circumvent the splitting tendency by rubber-banding the nose end of each fruit. Of course there's always going to be some loss in quality when you ship frozen fresh fruit to faraway places. But the eating experience of a thawed Musang King exceeds all expectations when compared to a Monthong. For some (like my wife), it justifies the price difference between $4.50/lb Monthong and $13/lb for Musang King in St. Pete. Mind you, I've had very good Monthongs in Thailand (per my tastebuds) when i can find tree-dropped (ripe) fruits, but these are extremely difficult to come by.
ps. Note the green rubber bands keeping the sections intact. The smaller vacuum-packed and frozen box is relatively cheaper at $24.00 per box.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQDwXMRw/durian1.png) (https://postimg.cc/hQDwXMRw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NK2gGG4X/d2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NK2gGG4X)
I'm sure the companies that freeze Musang King are taking better care than those that are freezing Monthong because as you point out they are charging more than 3x the price. I haven't had frozen MK because i don't think they are sent here to Hawaii. But i really doubt it's going to be as good as one of my fresh fruits off my trees. It would be interesting to do a comparison of fresh and frozen MK side by side and see how thy compare and see how much quality deterioration there really is? BTW tree dropped Monthong is not hard to find in Thailand if you drive to one of the very many farms that grow them.
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Oscar,
You may be mistaken... Most, if not all, Musang Kings that you come across in the US originate in Malaysia. More importantly, these durians are NOT harvested like you would a mature mango, i.e., picked/cut from the tree. Instead the durians are allowed to ripen on the tree and dropped (without human intervention). They are then collected and processed (flash frozen in liquid nitrogen) and shipped. Thai's do NOT like smelly durians--Malaysians, on the other hand, love the pungent aromatics of their cultivars. It's a dramatically different harvesting practice between Thais and Malaysians.
When ripe, the sections of ripe durians also tend split open fairly easily, especially at nose, which will desiccate the arils. The exporters circumvent the splitting tendency by rubber-banding the nose end of each fruit. Of course there's always going to be some loss in quality when you ship frozen fresh fruit to faraway places. But the eating experience of a thawed Musang King exceeds all expectations when compared to a Monthong. For some (like my wife), it justifies the price difference between $4.50/lb Monthong and $13/lb for Musang King in St. Pete. Mind you, I've had very good Monthongs in Thailand (per my tastebuds) when i can find tree-dropped (ripe) fruits, but these are extremely difficult to come by.
ps. Note the green rubber bands keeping the sections intact. The smaller vacuum-packed and frozen box is relatively cheaper at $24.00 per box.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQDwXMRw/durian1.png) (https://postimg.cc/hQDwXMRw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NK2gGG4X/d2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NK2gGG4X)
I'm sure the companies that freeze Musang King are taking better care than those that are freezing Monthong because as you point out they are charging more than 3x the price. I haven't had frozen MK because i don't think they are sent here to Hawaii. But i really doubt it's going to be as good as one of my fresh fruits off my trees. It would be interesting to do a comparison of fresh and frozen MK side by side and see how thy compare and see how much quality deterioration there really is? BTW tree dropped Monthong is not hard to find in Thailand if you drive to one of the very many farms that grow them.
Oscar are you growing musang king clones in hawaii ?
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I have a grafted tree planted labeled Musang King, but can't be 100% sure it's the real thing till it fruits. I also have Black Thorn seedlings, but don't know how much variation there will be from seed.
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Which cultivars do you find grow best and produce the best fruit in your climate in hawaii?
According to the malay farmer of black thorn claims only 15% will come true from seed, this was second hand information.
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Which cultivars do you find grow best and produce the best fruit in your climate in hawaii?
According to the malay farmer of black thorn claims only 15% will come true from seed, this was second hand information.
Some of my best tasting and best fruiting trees have been seedling trees. But it's too early to answer your question as i have only a few cultivars planted, and they have not all fruited yet.
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I believe black thorn originated in Thailand and was taken to Malaysia where it is pretty claimed as Malaysian now. I think musang King is a genuine Malaysian.
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I believe black thorn originated in Thailand and was taken to Malaysia where it is pretty claimed as Malaysian now. I think musang King is a genuine Malaysian.
I've heard that Black Thorn is a selected seedling of Musang King, but don't know if that's true?
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Origin Of Durian Black Thorn @ Ochee
Back in the days, Bagi Kau fell in love the taste of a durian in Thailand, hence, he brought the seed of it back to Malaysia – Kampung Lima Kongsi, near Sungai Bakap, which is near the south of the second bridge. Black Thorn became so popular till the extent that it had a waiting list every season, usually in late July or early August. At that point of time, Bagi Kau rejected people’s request to allow them to grow it on their farms.
Finally, in mid-1980s, Bagi Kau allowed his friend, Mr Leow Cheok Keong, to grow it on his farm in Nibong Tebal, which was then established as the first commercial orchard. However, Mr Leow did not particularly liked Black Thorn back then, therefore he did not grow more of it.
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Origin Of Durian Musang King @ Raja Kunyit D197
Although most of Klang Valley supplies of Musang King comes from Raub – Pahang, it is not the “original” birth place of the famous Durian Musang King. It all started in the early 90s at Tanah Merah, Kelantan. A fruit seller from Pahang was looking all over Malaysia for the best durian and somehow he was introduced to a type of durian which locals in Kelantan referred to as Raja Kunyit.
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Black thorn is being planted out pretty seriously for export in mainland Penang. I visited farms of 15 hectares and the largest farms are not open to the public. The original black thorn farm no longer allows the public to come for durian, it’s gone to export only.
Peter
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Which cultivars do you find grow best and produce the best fruit in your climate in hawaii?
According to the malay farmer of black thorn claims only 15% will come true from seed, this was second hand information.
Some of my best tasting and best fruiting trees have been seedling trees. But it's too early to answer your question as i have only a few cultivars planted, and they have not all fruited yet.
all the best tasting fruits ive had on big island were also from different seedlings. wonder if its our soils not equating to the original cultivar growing region, or trees arent old enough, or somehow things got mislabeled and were just riding those names out. or maybe just the adaptation of one tree in place and the next generation being slightly more adapted to our climate.
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Which cultivars do you find grow best and produce the best fruit in your climate in hawaii?
According to the malay farmer of black thorn claims only 15% will come true from seed, this was second hand information.
Some of my best tasting and best fruiting trees have been seedling trees. But it's too early to answer your question as i have only a few cultivars planted, and they have not all fruited yet.
all the best tasting fruits ive had on big island were also from different seedlings. wonder if its our soils not equating to the original cultivar growing region, or trees arent old enough, or somehow things got mislabeled and were just riding those names out. or maybe just the adaptation of one tree in place and the next generation being slightly more adapted to our climate.
I think it's all of the above, plus the fact that grafted cultivars of elite durians are still very hard to get in Hawaii. And 10 to 20 years ago, the time that trees now are currently producing were planted, it was even way harder to get grafted cultivars. I planted whatever i could find, and so did most growers.
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Which cultivars do you find grow best and produce the best fruit in your climate in hawaii?
According to the malay farmer of black thorn claims only 15% will come true from seed, this was second hand information.
Some of my best tasting and best fruiting trees have been seedling trees. But it's too early to answer your question as i have only a few cultivars planted, and they have not all fruited yet.
all the best tasting fruits ive had on big island were also from different seedlings. wonder if its our soils not equating to the original cultivar growing region, or trees arent old enough, or somehow things got mislabeled and were just riding those names out. or maybe just the adaptation of one tree in place and the next generation being slightly more adapted to our climate.
I think it's all of the above, plus the fact that grafted cultivars of elite durians are still very hard to get in Hawaii. And 10 to 20 years ago, the time that trees now are currently producing were planted, it was even way harder to get grafted cultivars. I planted whatever i could find, and so did most growers.
Sounds right to me. In my travels, I have just as many outstanding seedling durians as named varieties. While the aroma will likely always keep its audience limited, if it grew across a wider region, it would have plenty more local fans. Count me in.
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Mike, Oscar isn't the story of musang king about a guy who tasted the fruit then was denied scion wood so he broke into the farm of the source cut the scion and then it became big?
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Mike, Oscar isn't the story of musang king about a guy who tasted the fruit then was denied scion wood so he broke into the farm of the source cut the scion and then it became big?
Yes somebody posted an artile about him. But he wasn't the one that developed MK, just the one that swiped it and popularized it.
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There are important durian contests in Malaysia. You can only enter a new, un certified durian. Famous durians come from these competitions. Johore challenges with many new durians.
There are growers working on new hybrids. I have one from a nursery in Kuala Kangsar. In Borneo you have Suluk. On Java there are nurseries grafting new hybrids....
In SE Asia most people believe that the best fruits come from older trees. So most of our Asian selections are not old enough to be really good anyway.
Also, not all durian selections work well in all parts of SE Asia. Malaysia has a map showing areas that are recommended for specific selections. Everything is an experiment on our farms.
Peter
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(https://i.postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ/Screenshot-2021-03-19-17-28-17.png) (https://postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ)
Orlando, Florida. zone push?
This Durian is mine and is growing in Fort Lauderdale, NOT Orlando. It is a seedling from Panoramic and is over 7 ft tall.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/WD7Vh2jd/IMG-8454.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WD7Vh2jd)
This is the complete photo of my Fort Lauderdale grown Durian. Yes it is unlikely to fruit here but I am a dreamer and Durian is my favorite fruit beating out even Mangos!
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That looks pretty good.
How long has it been in that pot?
How do you feed it?
Peter
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(https://i.postimg.cc/WD7Vh2jd/IMG-8454.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WD7Vh2jd)
This is the complete photo of my Fort Lauderdale grown Durian. Yes it is unlikely to fruit here but I am a dreamer and Durian is my favorite fruit beating out even Mangos!
Congrats! Looks very nice. Suggestions: always keep it out of the wind, and don't let it dry out. If you want it to fruit you will have to repot into a much bigger pot.
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The subject was not enough durian discussion. There we go again, loads of talk about frozen durian....
I have 1 mongthong tree in my garden which grows very well, doesn't fruit well though. The strange thing is that i've had 10 more grafted duriantree's in my garden but they ALL DIED..No matter which variety i planted they just died in full soil. They got sunprotection, elevated soil, fertilizers and sprays but just wouldn't do it. I tried thai varieties, malaysian varieties, they all started to look bad within weeks and never recovered.
Maybe the problem was organic compost mixed in the soil. But my big tree also grows in that.
So if it's even hard to grow durian at my place it must be even harder in other countries/climates. I call our climate ultra-tropical since temps are always above 15 celcius, day and night.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N9mq6ZFb/durexdurian.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9mq6ZFb)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ/Screenshot-2021-03-19-17-28-17.png) (https://postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ)
Orlando, Florida. zone push?
This Durian is mine and is growing in Fort Lauderdale, NOT Orlando. It is a seedling from Panoramic and is over 7 ft tall.
This one looks great and has a nice size...i've seen bigger ones for sale in pots but they are rare. I would plant this one in full soil, perfect size for that cause they don't fruit in containers...at least i haven't seen it.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ/Screenshot-2021-03-19-17-28-17.png) (https://postimg.cc/8FM24TtQ)
Orlando, Florida. zone push?
This Durian is mine and is growing in Fort Lauderdale, NOT Orlando. It is a seedling from Panoramic and is over 7 ft tall.
This one looks great and has a nice size...i've seen bigger ones for sale in pots but they are rare. I would plant this one in full soil, perfect size for that cause they don't fruit in containers...at least i haven't seen it.
Once it hits the Florida soil it would probably die, too alkaline. Yes the durian can fruit in a pot, if it's a giant pot.
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A small tree variety like monthong might have a better chance than some of those malaysian whoppers.
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A small tree variety like monthong might have a better chance than some of those malaysian whoppers.
I would suggest D123 (Chanee) which can start fruiting as a small tree.
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Question has anyone managed to try keep a SEEDLING durian pruned hard to like 6-8m and managed to get it to fruit?
I know the thais keep their grafted durian pruned mostly but wonder if anyone is doing this successfully with seedlings
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We put effort into shaping many seedling as well as grafted trees. In the case of durians I have topped seedlings in an effort to encourage wider branching. But ultimately we let durians grow tall. Most Thais want to pick the fruit so it’s best that they’re not to tall. Since we let the fruit drop, even from 30m we get more fruit with a taller tree. I also feel that the first fruiting could be sooner if not pruned too much.
In a hurricane zone you might have other priorities. Still, I’ve seen large durian cut back heavily without any problem.
Peter
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Thanks Peter yeh I think I’m going to trial some heavy pruning at least on some trees, I think it may offer advantages with cyclones as well as a bit of a safety factor for falling fruits. I have a whole bunch of not so sought after seedlings That I’m growing to practice different methods on and see what works.
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Question has anyone managed to try keep a SEEDLING durian pruned hard to like 6-8m and managed to get it to fruit?
I know the thais keep their grafted durian pruned mostly but wonder if anyone is doing this successfully with seedlings
Wrote a long reply but got logged out so lost the text, sorry new here. Here's a short version.
Have seen seedling durian tree's in Bali with fruit at 5m aproximetly. (big fruit type), (can't guarantee it's a seedling but most likely judging by many factors)
Have seen seedling durian tree's in Bali with fruit at 6m aproximetly. Tree's in full sun and not pruned by humans, but loses some leafs in the dry period so kinda self pruning.
Low young fruit will be more suceptible to the fruit spotting bug.
If the tree's not getting enouhg sun pruning will just be stopping the tree to get to the sun so that I receives the energy to fruit.
We will be keeping some seedlings short so that we can bag the fruit in order to stop the cookatoo.
Currently keeing mango seedlings short, like 1-2m.
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I have seen a few small one fruiting and yes Chanee would be a good option. If planted in full sun and trimmed to ensure low branching you can totally attack it when at say 7m or 8m it flower for the first time and bring it down to size. Storm shortened trees can fruit while quite shor
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Mike what’s the rationale behind that? Does topping them earlier slow their maturation ? I have half a dozen grafts at varying stages of maturity in a suburban garden like you. I’m planning on keeping them on the small side for space and cyclone resilience. The seedling trees got huge before they first flowered - I won’t be able to do that with the others.
Cheers Jim
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I think the key to shaping durian without retarding the onset of production is to incrementally top and open space within the tree, cutting as little as possible at a time. Force the branches to grow out, giving them more light and air, perhaps pruning lightly every 3 months instead of heavier pruning once or twice a year. Actually, we probably top twice a year but continually open the inside.
Peter
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I think the key to shaping durian without retarding the onset of production is to incrementally top and open space within the tree, cutting as little as possible at a time. Force the branches to grow out, giving them more light and air, perhaps pruning lightly every 3 months instead of heavier pruning once or twice a year. Actually, we probably top twice a year but continually open the inside.
Peter
Thanks for sharing that. FLI. How much do you open the inside of the tree? and does the branches inside get sun burnt? Would love to see a photo of one tree pruned like this as comparisson with other structures.
Jim, maybe the tree girth is more important then height for Durian tree maturity? or maybe it's a number of dry period cycles? Anyone know?
Would you say they got heigher or shorter then 10m before they flowered?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/XGsXzFv6/65-F97-C5-E-9-F35-4-D9-D-8-DC6-9-E8-F77-A3-BC95.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XGsXzFv6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4H3HfP03/C5-E1-D514-B6-DB-4905-B38-D-D59923819-DCB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4H3HfP03)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ffJjB7s/F9-A53-B73-A3-CA-4-EA4-8-B68-61034-D386185.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7ffJjB7s)
So in the top photo you see a 25 year old tree that has been shaped into a rough pyramid. We want horizontal branches and we try to remove the clutter and congestion inside the scaffold, spacing the branches and removing interior branch lets. In the bottom photo you see the same tree looking up inside. Because of the angle the branches look closer together than they actually are.
When I say open up the inside I’m not really exposing any bare branches to much sunlight, I’m just creating open space inside the tree.
The second photo is a six to seven year old tree that is a work in progress. We have topped her a few times and stragetically removed crowded branches with more to come. In the interior we are nipping off branchlets. Any branch that tries to grow up at much of an angle we either eliminate, tie horizontal, or cut it where it angles up, trying to encourage lateral growth.
This tree is at about the point where we won’t top it any longer. For me, the topping is more of a shaping tool to get the lower branches like I want them. The overall height doesn’t worry me too much with durian. That’s a completely different strategy than the one I employ for artocarpus and portería, etc.
Peter
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(https://i.postimg.cc/XB9VtYVR/aaaagumpun5april.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XB9VtYVR)
Better late than never and my gumpun tree has late season fruit. They are big on a small tree with mostly shrivelled seeds so have great flesh yield.The fruit are quite similar to Monthong.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/XB9VtYVR/aaaagumpun5april.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XB9VtYVR)
Better late than never and my gumpun tree has late season fruit. They are big on a small tree with mostly shrivelled seeds so have great flesh yield.The fruit are quite similar to Monthong.
Nice big sections to eat. Looks good! What country does that cultivar originate in?
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I will copy a local evaluation from about 30 years ago. They have always been ranked highly here and have close to the highest flesh yield.
"GUMPUN (Aust. Montong) Large-v.large Heart-shaped Green Dark yellow flesh Thick 36% yield Good flavour, sweet, mild, rich Fine, very firm, smooth Aborted seeds. High yield. Can be picked early. Late season. Sensitive to cold weather. Vigorous"
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Nice ! How long did it take to fruit ? My gumpun (graft) a few years old now but still spindly only 2m tall. Only getting morning and early afternoon sun.
Red clay soil. Interested to know how others fertilise their young durians - i probably dontvferrilize mine enough and the rain must leach a lot of nutrients. Few handfuls of chicken pellets a few times a year so far. Going to put crusher dust in with the mulch too to try and get more minerals into the soil. Several of the grafts have quite pale leaves with little yellow and brown patches on them.
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That Gumpun sounds great!
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Durian growers follow a regimen of coordinated feeding. Interestingly, in Malaysia they avoid manures, figuring they are a risk for root issues. We use manures though as we avoid conventional NPK.
Lots of compost, microorganisms. Apply a foliar of Ca Bo every two weeks on young trees. Amino acid preparations for root stimulation. Get your ph to 6.
Peter
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This tree is at about the point where we won’t top it any longer.
Great images and caption! Looks like you got a branch stairway to the durian heaven :D
So I assume you didn't cut a lot when you topped the tree, just the "apex" crown kinda.
So you will let that tree grow taller now? As you said it was a tool to get the lower laterals to where you want them.
So you don't have an issue with flying animals wanting a pice of the durian?
Cookatoos love durian here so I will have to bag them (they go for low hanging fruit also), and a stairway is prefered when climbing. But would have to keep the tree lower to reduce the amount of climbing so the topping would be a lifelong process here.
Peter, have you seen the growth of a durian tree in PH 7?
7 is balance (14\2=7), and decomposted woodchips is close to or 7 which would be the what the absolute topsoil would be made of in it's native range.
subsoil ph will be different.
That's a beautiful fruit Mike! Have tried them and they are great!
Jim, when I put a tiny dripper 2L/h and wood (chips, trunks etc) around some durian seedlings they stared to grow very vigourously compared to before. One seedling is 2,3m after 1 year, planted the seed direct in ground. With the dripp they don't get stunted in the dry any more but mulch and compost only could work, I just can't get enough of that here and it's hard to "chop and drop mulch" enough around hundreds of tree's alone.
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Jim I think it took around 6 years for the grafted tree to produce its first fruit but it could be 7.I just use NPK of around 10;2;4 infrequently and a bit of dolomite now and then.Sometimes I spread some blood and bone or dynamic lifter around the durians.
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great discussion happening here, I want to throw another question out there. Is anyone putting any chemicals on the tree where cuts are being made to top/shape the trees? I thought this might be an easy way for phytophora to enter?
I plan on buying a few litres on phos 600 and apply via foliar spray for phytophora and wondering what i can use to seal pruning cuts?
Cassowary where abouts in NQ are you based?
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Most of the soils in wet areas of CR are acidic. I do consultations where the ph is 4.8-5.2. So I tell people to try and get 6 somehow, it’s a lot of Ca! My soil is 6.1. Where I have inquired in Malaysia it’s been about 6.5. Durian, like avocado is sensitive to very acidic soil so I wouldn’t ignore ph.
In topping I have taken off more than the very tip, depending. I like to pick a likely new leader and cut just above it. Ideally there are branches with a nice spread just below that. If you need to have good access to every fruit I could understand not letting the tree go higher than 10m.
We have more insect damage than birds on durian. Culling fruit is a good practice that we need to improve on.
My oldest tree is 30m with no lower branches. We feed it a bit with mulch, manure, Ca, and collect the fruits. They fall from 20-30m and don’t seem to get damaged. Certainly more than 250kg per harvest.
Peter
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Sealing cuts is probably a good idea but we don’t bother when pruning and it hasn’t been an issue. On the other hand, if I find damage then we often seal with a mixture of calcium carbonate and copper sulfate moistened with an adherent.
Peter
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My pH is around 5.6. Which is pretty standard for highly weathered metamorphic parent material in the tropics. Would be nice to have Basaltic krasnozem or alluvial like some locals, Granite derived soils and coastal sands have their own issues. durians don't mind a generous clay content but are not fans of laterite, hydroscopic soils and cracking vertisols like you get inland. When you use N fertlisers that acidify it is good to lime of dolomite the area now and then. Durians seem to enjoy soils around 6 pH best.
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Mike Im not going to pretend to understand any of the soil terms you are talking about, my property is an ex cane field the soil where the cane was is extremely dense red clay. Close to the creek it is a more black softer soil. So far all my fruit trees seem happy in this clay but im yet to plant durian out. Hopefully next week.
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If you have some alluvial from the creek and are in the colluvial zone of those granite mountains behind you then great. You know Troppo is the name for a tropical heat induced madness coined in northern Australia during WW2. After months of relentless het and humidity some people go nuts with aggression sleeplessness etc.
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If you have some alluvial from the creek and are in the colluvial zone of those granite mountains behind you then great. You know Troppo is the name for a tropical heat induced madness coined in northern Australia during WW2. After months of relentless het and humidity some people go nuts with aggression sleeplessness etc.
Well hows that my wife would say i have this madness regardless of the temperature.
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great discussion happening here, I want to throw another question out there. Is anyone putting any chemicals on the tree where cuts are being made to top/shape the trees? I thought this might be an easy way for phytophora to enter?
I plan on buying a few litres on phos 600 and apply via foliar spray for phytophora and wondering what i can use to seal pruning cuts?
The people I know, caring for many durian tree's don't cover the cut, one I know of prune's specifically in the dry season beause he says it's working for him. He mostly got seedlings and haven't got much rotroot, he's problem is more to keep the soil moist in the dry (same as for me).
I know this sounds counterintuivite but i'v had great results with covering tree wounds with plasticwrap. (mango, durian, rambutan). If I take two fairly similar wounds (horizontal tears/cross cuts) and wrap one and leave the other one alone, the one covered in plastic closes faster and more neatly compared to the other one (from what i'v seen). Haven't had fungus problem inside the plastic and I am doing this becuase I want the environment directly around the wound to be humid. I might put up comparative images in the future when i'v tried more. Not recommending this at this moment since I am just experimenting.
My pH is around 5.6. Which is pretty standard for highly weathered metamorphic parent material in the tropics. Would be nice to have Basaltic krasnozem or alluvial like some locals, Granite derived soils and coastal sands have their own issues. durians don't mind a generous clay content but are not fans of laterite, hydroscopic soils and cracking vertisols like you get inland. When you use N fertlisers that acidify it is good to lime of dolomite the area now and then. Durians seem to enjoy soils around 6 pH best.
Would say I got around the same avarage ph in the eluviated horizon, but I don't think durian put a large percentage of feeder roots in there if there's a good humus layer above, when I uncover the outmost top leaflitter and mulch there's a lot of plumb root hairs and they even go up in logs about 20 cm heigh. This would be the humus layer or organic layer. So for me it seams they like a top layer with PH closer to 7 then 6.
"Most of the soils in wet areas of CR are acidic. I do consultations where the ph is 4.8-5.2. So I tell people to try and get 6 somehow, it’s a lot of Ca! My soil is 6.1. Where I have inquired in Malaysia it’s been about 6.5. Durian"
Maybe the organic layer is greater in absolute height where it was measured in Malaysia and thus closer to ph 7. And beacuse if that layer is heigher they would have picked up less of the eluviated horizon for their test, and if tested with a probe it would have penetrated less of that layer to.
Decompossed arborist mulch (wood and leaf) will be very close to ph 7, wood and leaf (plus fruit) is what's drop to the ground in a forest and for me it seams durian really like that forest floor type of earth/soil structure where the eluviated ph is usually bellow or closer to 6 (from your test data and my own tests here). So instead of adding Calcium to increase that layers ph it seams to me to be more benefical to add arborist mulch/ logs/leafs etc to create a greater humus layer which is closer to ph 7.
I am not saying adding Calcium to create close to 7 PH, I don't know how that would turn out, maybe not well. I only know what arborist mulch and forest litter does when added on top of the eluviated layer.
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Nice commentary.
Interesting about treating wounds with plastic. I think we’re not as dry here.
My ph was not tested by a probe but by taking a subgrade sample that was analysed in a lab.
I agree completely with mulching and I teach it enthusiastically. I take students/clients and we shift the leaf litter aside to witness activity of microorganisms and find the feeding root tips where the biomass comes in contact with the clay.
When I say to work towards a ph of 6 it’s perhaps a little abstract and one single factor that is measurable in the quest to improve the soil for something like durian. The same goes for avocados which are widely planted here and have issues with acidic soil.
Our farm maintains corridors of rainforest between mixed orchard areas. We go into the forest, find old fallen trees and bring that material out and spread it under our fruit trees, especially durians. We also use manures, Ca, rock phosphate in a band around the drip line. We apply lab produced microorganisms to the biomass every 2 weeks if it’s not dry.
Peter
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Nice commentary.
Interesting about treating wounds with plastic. I think we’re not as dry here.
My ph was not tested by a probe but by taking a subgrade sample that was analysed in a lab.
I agree completely with mulching and I teach it enthusiastically. I take students/clients and we shift the leaf litter aside to witness activity of microorganisms and find the feeding root tips where the biomass comes in contact with the clay.
When I say to work towards a ph of 6 it’s perhaps a little abstract and one single factor that is measurable in the quest to improve the soil for something like durian. The same goes for avocados which are widely planted here and have issues with acidic soil.
Our farm maintains corridors of rainforest between mixed orchard areas. We go into the forest, find old fallen trees and bring that material out and spread it under our fruit trees, especially durians. We also use manures, Ca, rock phosphate in a band around the drip line. We apply lab produced microorganisms to the biomass every 2 weeks if it’s not dry.
Peter
subgrade sample, have you tested PH of the biomass layer just above the clay? I will try and get that done with a lab as comparison for the eluviated layer (only done probe).
What a great use of a very local resource. And sustainable since the forest re-generates itself.
I abandoned the idea of applying Mycorrhiza etc. under the established fruit trees since it looked like there was a lot of activity anyway (could see fungus spreading where there where OM). Do you apply that regularly to encourage faster decomposition of the OM or for other reasons? I thought from my own reasoning that maybe the microbiome is already saturated and applying more then once (innoculation) would not benefit the tree much. When I plant tree's in the disturbed areas where grass where growing I try to put a bit of biomass from under one of the established tree's in the hole as to give a microbiome innoculation. But then I don't add any micro. org. to the OM that I cover the soil with. You got me asking myself, would adding micro. org. to the top layer regularly like you do benefit the small durians growing in old guniegrass fields?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/T56WdmYq/aaaasteriprune.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/T56WdmYq)
Spray wounds and trees should be in well drained places and mulch is present. Make sure enough P in fertlisers and even resort to phosphonate if you have to.
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According to youtube video comments Jackfruit is King over Durian but then I suspect the reason being many have yet to try Durian or a Excellent variety of Durian that would make them rate it higher.
Well according to Thai marketprices for Durian and Jackfruit the Durian is the absolute winner with 500us$ for a top notch durian versus maybe 50us$ for the best jackfruit.
And for jackfruit most vendors have inferiour fruit for sale, they don't taste anything like the best ones but they all are the same price. I only eat jackfruit from 1 vendor who always has excellent quality or she won't even sell jackfruit. No idea why this vendor always has far better fruit than all the other ones, they might have their own orchard.
And nope, we don't need the whole world to eat jackfruit or durian. Since Thailand exports durians the prices are higher and the fruits smaller. Now it's almost impossible to find a big durian in Thailand cause the chinese have bought ALL the big ones. Same goes for mangosteen.
And for durian it freezes very well, they should just blend the durian flesh, put it in icecream bowls and export it. That's how i make durian icecream, i buy the soft ones (which the Thai don't like) for half price and blend them all with a tiny bit of salt, nothing else. That's perfect icecream and tastes exactly the same as the overripe durians..mind you, for a Thai EVERY tree fallen durian is overripe, they like them a tiny bit underripe while they are still crunchy on the outside and soft inside.
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I think the key to shaping durian without retarding the onset of production is to incrementally top and open space within the tree, cutting as little as possible at a time. Force the branches to grow out, giving them more light and air, perhaps pruning lightly every 3 months instead of heavier pruning once or twice a year. Actually, we probably top twice a year but continually open the inside.
Peter
Peter,
Is this video an example of what you mean by “open the inside”
https://youtu.be/NfTmnS5gHBM
James
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The video does something similar. I don’t understand why they don’t cut closer to the branch as I think that such cuts heal better. They are opening nicely, we do the same but maybe not as much at a time.
Peter
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I use microorganisms to help breakdown the biomass. I’m working with a trinity, if you will, of biomass, biochar, and microorganisms. As far as the microorganisms are concerned the biochar is a refuge to support them. The consistent application is to maintain the healthy flora balance. The forest is a big place and microorganisms are going to balance out but the farm has more isolated pockets of micro flora if your trees are spread out with grass or dry soil between them. I’ve had good success using EM or similar products.
Peter
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Four acres is pret. good size really. Lots of commercial durian farms in Malaysia are about that size and they are doing pretty well.
Fortunately durian is easy to top work and thus very agile. Superior material can easily be used to convert trees that don’t show a lot of promise. I think 2-3 years to be back in production at a commercial level. This last year I’ve planted 15 select seedlings from Penang, hoping for something fantastic!
I have 3 trees older than 25 years in production. From those 3 I harvested 600kg the last season!
Peter
How you get the seedlings from Penang?
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Another question. I live in the tropics and Jackfruit grows a plenty here, But in my arrea, central vietnam, there doesnt seem to be much durian fruit trees around. Would they not grow decent if jackfruit can grow around? The weather here is chilly, 10c in winter, and mid 30's to low 40's celcius in the summer.
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They are in the south and maybe the temps get a bit lower than 10c and make it a bit cool for durian. Jacks can take 6c or more less than durian. Do you have mangosteen and breadfruit>
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Charts of areas where durian is grown in Vietnam show only the far south being appropriate.
I brought seeds from Penang of my favorite durians.
Peter
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Another question. I live in the tropics and Jackfruit grows a plenty here, But in my arrea, central vietnam, there doesnt seem to be much durian fruit trees around. Would they not grow decent if jackfruit can grow around? The weather here is chilly, 10c in winter, and mid 30's to low 40's celcius in the summer.
Try and plant some durian seeds they will be able to handle 10C.
Place it directly on the ground and protect the seeds with a plastic bottle (both ends cut of, like a cylinder) to reduce rodent damage and mulch around but do not cover the seed. The de-composting mulch keeps the soil a little bit warmer in the winter, can add compost under the mulch to if mulch is hard to get (probobly lot's of rice husk where you are).
I suggest direct planting becuase then the tree will get a deep taproot and is more likely to survive winter since temp is a lot more stable down in the soil rather then in a pot above soil. Protect from wind if you have strong winds.
I use microorganisms to help breakdown the biomass. I’m working with a trinity, if you will, of biomass, biochar, and microorganisms. As far as the microorganisms are concerned the biochar is a refuge to support them. The consistent application is to maintain the healthy flora balance. The forest is a big place and microorganisms are going to balance out but the farm has more isolated pockets of micro flora if your trees are spread out with grass or dry soil between them. I’ve had good success using EM or similar products.
Peter
So ideally the food forest should be like a natural forest but that's not really practical due to other needs such as picking etc. I'll do a test with native M.O. innoculat in water solution under a couple of young durian tree's that was planted in a guinegrass field.
I guess the milpa cycle is a model that would create the char in the field https://mayaforestgardeners.org/forestgardening.php
But I feel like burning the whole field reduces fertility long term and animals gets hurt or have to move out, so adding char like you do is better in my opinion.
I guess the benefit of char is that it will keep it's porous structure in the soil for a very long time, something that rooting wood won't do unless heart wood of merbau etc.
So maybe the heart of hardwood could serve the same purouse? Maybe not becuase it's so dense. Does heart of hardwood get porous when chared or does it just dry out and stay dense?
Just pondering on an alternative to bio-char without burning anything. Fukuoka got great yelds without char so maybe some of the burried hard wood stayed very long in ground without rooting and acted like char?
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Buried wood can last a long time and be beneficial.
But char...a cubic cm of char produced at a high temperature can have the surface of a football field!
Char found in the terra prieta of the amazon is more than 1000 years old. So a single application can last indefinitely. There’s a video called 'El dorado' that is pretty inspirational. We make char with prunings in an adapted steel drum called a TLUD that works at 800C and produces char rapidly without smoke.
I’m a fan of Fukuoka, he’s been an inspiration since the 80's, but we’re moving along within a plethora of ideas and technologies, trying not to be overwhelmed.
Peter
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Buried wood can last a long time and be beneficial.
But char...a cubic cm of char produced at a high temperature can have the surface of a football field!
Char found in the terra prieta of the amazon is more than 1000 years old. So a single application can last indefinitely. There’s a video called 'El dorado' that is pretty inspirational. We make char with prunings in an adapted steel drum called a TLUD that works at 800C and produces char rapidly without smoke.
I’m a fan of Fukuoka, he’s been an inspiration since the 80's, but we’re moving along within a plethora of ideas and technologies, trying not to be overwhelmed.
Peter
Looked at the documentary, now I get the name "Finca La Isla":D. Those civilisations then probobly cooked their food with a TLUD or similar and then returned that to the field. I don't cook food so can't do that but others cooking their food could do this with ease.
The man who was selling the tierra preta said every 20 years it's regenerated it enough to sell again. He didn't say if he added char but I assue he just left the land re-vegetate itself and the 20cm of T.P. he left can sustain the re-growth cycle with plenty of nutrients and char innoculated with biome.
So in 20 years we will probobly have a thick layer of T.P. for our maturing durian and if we add char that could provide "shelter' for M. O. during drought and reduce nutrient run off from the decomposing forest litter. So fukuoka probobly buried logs in his terraces to create that T.P. structure deeper down that was not there and then rely on the natural cycle of growth and litter to add new ontop. By doing that getting yeilds faster and also long term (his son still get's decent yeilds).
"trying not to be overwhelmed" Yes same here, trying to keep it very simple, otherwise I will probly not last long enough.
I have spent many hours trying to find a micro. org. lab analaysis of native soil underneath durian in it's native area, but have only found indications of what typ of species of micro. org. is in dipterocarp forest. If anyone have found something like that please share :D
For now I am relying on the native micro biome here as an inoculant.
"dipterocarps are ectomycorrhizal trees, and their seedlings are linked by a network of fungal hyphae that transfer nutrients from decaying organic matter to seedlings."
https://unitedplantsavers.org/restoration-of-the-heart-lessons-from-the-all-mighty-shorea-faguetiana-tree/
So I am fairly sure this would include durio sp., just gotta get that myco thriving instead of guinegrass :/ and then the mother durian can nurse it's own durian seedlings :D
I think one step I missed early on was to not establish pionerring tree's before planting durian in the grass field, it's been almost impossible keeping them alive without supplemental water and mulch.
Planting out pioneering tree's since a couple years ago and some durian looks a lot better now with some shade and supression of the allelopathic grass.
Local durians still dropping a little bit but they haven't been the greatest, a bit less sweet and mushy aril maybe due to the rainy weeks. The same tree's produced great fruit early on in the season.
Idk how the durian is going up at the highlands here, a couple of years ago I got fresh durian in june from Julatten.
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I am more of a sceptic than optimist when it comes to new way of enriching soil and just how good some of the espoused ideas are in tropical rainy climates. We know the speed and sequence of nutrients in most areas and that most nutrients in rainforest are quickly recycled with most being in the trees themselves and a little in the A horizon veneer. Some alluvials and basalt derived soils are different of course. Mulch and getting carbon and organic material on the surface is of course a key thing for regulating nutrients and making the soil alive. I believe most of the key microoraganism will just show up if you have the right conditions.
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I am more of a sceptic than optimist when it comes to new way of enriching soil and just how good some of the espoused ideas are in tropical rainy climates. We know the speed and sequence of nutrients in most areas and that most nutrients in rainforest are quickly recycled with most being in the trees themselves and a little in the A horizon veneer. Some alluvials and basalt derived soils are different of course. Mulch and getting carbon and organic material on the surface is of course a key thing for regulating nutrients and making the soil alive. I believe most of the key microoraganism will just show up if you have the right conditions.
Adding garden waste and char from cooking activity predates any chemical ammendment to soil that is used today. I am sceptical to more complex methods such as aerated composting teas, activated char and micro org in water solution or dry poweder since these increase the cost and labour significantly. But I am willing to do a trial with a small control group and see if the cost and labour comes out with a net gain in yeild over a number of years.
"I believe most of the key microoraganism will just show up if you have the right conditions."
When it rains here it smells the same as it does in parts of Indonesia I have been to and that could probloby indicate similar microbiome. I am talking about inside the rainforest, maybe it's spores or metabolites from the decaying leaf litter. So I agree with you, seams to make sense.
Apples are fruits and does have bacteria inside of it it seams so woulden't it make sense that durian would have that too?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31396172/
"Interestingly, fruit pulp and seeds were bacterial hot spots, while the peel was less colonized"
So maybe wet core in durian fruit could be reduced by a specific environment (it's native one?).
I don't think "too much rain" is the reason for wet core in durian since it rains in Borneo and Indonesia too when the fruit is on and I have never opend a durian with wet core in Indonesia from a fruit that was picked from a food forest (can verify easily becuase I see them climb the tree and get the durian, and Iv eaten hundreds). But here is AU iv seen and tried many durians with wet core from trees growing in a orchard with lawn cover and low bio diversity.
Maybe someone have experienced reduction in disease of the durian fruit when converting from lawn cover to food forest?!
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They are in the south and maybe the temps get a bit lower than 10c and make it a bit cool for durian. Jacks can take 6c or more less than durian. Do you have mangosteen and breadfruit>
Trying to grow mangosteen where I am as well langsat. There are some big bread fruit around my area.
Cassowary I will try that out.
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Every durian lover should go to Borneo at least once and try some of the more wild species and hybrids. The range of flavors of these fruits is memorizing. Davao is also quite the durian destination. there is a durian statue outside the airport, you will see people unloading truck fulls and the streets are lined with vendors in several parts of the city.
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How do you all rate the red prawn durian against the other heavy weights such as musang king, black thorn etc?
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I have only had it in Penang. From young and really old trees. Unique and fabulous flavours - the fruit off the old trees had bluish marbleing and made our mouths tingle. Apparently red prawn tastes different when grown elsewhere - I have one of fruit forest grafts but no fruit yet. Mike has a fruiting one grown in FNQ soil
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I have only had it in Penang. From young and really old trees. Unique and fabulous flavours - the fruit off the old trees had bluish marbleing and made our mouths tingle. Apparently red prawn tastes different when grown elsewhere - I have one of fruit forest grafts but no fruit yet. Mike has a fruiting one grown in FNQ soil
Jim thanks for the response, a few of the heavy weights of the local durian scene have advised me not to bother with red prawn due to being a shy fruiter despite being a very vigorous tree. Sounds like the ones in penang are great!!! Im also learning from the same people it seems that local conditions and soils play a HUGE role in the quality, taste and fruiting ability of each cultivar and the stuff that performs well in maylasia doesn't always do well and fruit well here. Certainly it is a very interesting fruit and im always looking to learn from those in the know of what they have already found about performance in our area.
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In Malaysia as well, the quality can vary. Not all of their durians work well everywhere either. Their agricultural department has recommendations regarding the best durians to plant in a given area and which to avoid.
In the end, all plantings, to some degree, are an experiment.
Peter
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(https://i.postimg.cc/zL5z0zfw/aaaagumpfin.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zL5z0zfw)
My last durian of the season and it is a really good gumpun with shrivelled seeds.
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Mouthwatering Mike! Few more years for mine. Have you ever tried the “sunan “ ? That’s probably the most likely to fruit first out of the grafts I have . Indonesian one apparently
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I am pretty sure I have tried them at Cape Tribulation with Colin Gray. My memories of the taste are a bit hazy but I do remember that they were good.
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Question for yall with mature trees how big are your grafted varieties getting without pruning? I realise they can be pruned down to 3m or so but those who have grafted monthong for example left unpruned what size are you seeing?
Internet information is all over the place i have seen some references say 8m up to 20m for a grafted tree which is obviously a huge difference. Im planting mine at 13m spacing so that they have plenty of room and sunlight.
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I would not add any organics to the soil of a durian. The ones that died in my place all had nice soil mixed with organic material.
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I have a Grafted Mongthong that is 4.5 years old. I pruned it at one year and another two times on the way up to shape it. Now I’ve let it go and it is about 9m already. 13m spacing sounds good to me. To get a good shape it’s critical that direct sunlight hits the sides of the tree.
I know that in SE Asia manures have a bad reputation regarding the potential to foment root disease with durian. In Malaysia they use organic compost that has no manure. We have always used lots of biomass and some mixed manures, ideally aged. At least here I have not seen any durian trees affected by root disease. Our soil is about 6.2 ph and we apply some Ca.
Peter
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Thanks peter I plan to shape my trees as well and 9m high sounds good, 20m high would be a bit much.
My soil ph is 4.7 which is a little on the low end might add some lime first.
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I have other trees that are taller including a 30 year old seedling that is 30m. We have not had a problem with the fruits falling and getting damaged.
Peter
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I have other trees that are taller including a 30 year old seedling that is 30m. We have not had a problem with the fruits falling and getting damaged.
Peter
Peter i would love to have magnificent 30m high trees eventually, however unfortunately i live in the cyclone belt and that thing would come crashing down in an instant. I will probably try and cut all mine to 6-9m. I plan to use star pickets and rope to secure them in the event of a cyclone.
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Sounds like a plan. I imagine that in that case that I would prune the top every year on the way up, maybe a half meter higher every year, encouraging lateral growth while slowly letting it gain some height. Should get lots of fruit and have good access for culling and other tending to the fruits.
Peter
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I keep my grafted mongthong at about 3 meters tall. When i cut the stem i even sealed the cut but now the top end of the stem is rotting and bark is coming of. The branches underneath are still healthy though. I keep it at this size since 3-4 years now and it seems to be working.
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I keep my grafted mongthong at about 3 meters tall. When i cut the stem i even sealed the cut but now the top end of the stem is rotting and bark is coming of. The branches underneath are still healthy though. I keep it at this size since 3-4 years now and it seems to be working.
Sunny do you recommend not sealing pruning cuts based on what you have seen?
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I would not add any organics to the soil of a durian. The ones that died in my place all had nice soil mixed with organic material.
I would advise to not mix the OM into the soil, just put it on top of the soil. No-till.
Durian seedlings I plant out die if we do not add OM on top of the soil after planting. Planted hundreds.
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I have other trees that are taller including a 30 year old seedling that is 30m. We have not had a problem with the fruits falling and getting damaged.
Peter
Peter i would love to have magnificent 30m high trees eventually, however unfortunately i live in the cyclone belt and that thing would come crashing down in an instant. I will probably try and cut all mine to 6-9m. I plan to use star pickets and rope to secure them in the event of a cyclone.
We have 20m tall durians that are surrounded by other big trees and they survived without damage one strong cyclone and do very well in minor storms so if tall trees have others around theres a higher chance of survival. These are on coastal land so they got hit hard and orchard systems around the area lost many trees in the same cyclone. It's possible for tree's to survive a cyclone in a proper food forest. Eventually there will be certain food bearing vines up them too that will tie together the trees, just like in the forest here that have survived cyclones for 100 years at least (yes there's very big tree's here :) ).
Wind damage is mostly an issue in orchard systems with wide tree spacing, straight rows, marcotted trees or other not suitable propagation methods and poor wind breaks due to maximzing the area for the main crop.
We get good fruit of these durian tree's but cookatoos are an issue so future tree's we will try and keep shorter so that we can bag them to reduce cookatoo damage.
You gotta bang those pickets in really hard, the rain that accompanies the storm will soften the soil. We have a similar insurance plan for some tree's :D
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Some great advice cassowary and your not wrong those star Pickets will need to be belted In until they almost disappear underground I reckon!!!!!
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Thai varieties are typicall a bit smaller and easier to control. If you want an espaliered or heavily trimmed small tree with fruit Monthong, gumpun and even chanee believe it or not are probably best for it. We talk about musang king, black thorn and a few others and think about which is the best and most desirable but we have forgotten the obvious just because it is out of reach and in the too hard basket. What has shaken the durian world more than lin and long Laplae varieties?
They are almost certainly the commercial ones proven to fruit in a cooler climate than others. They are odourless and seedless and you have to mortgage you house to try a single fruit. What other seedless fruit has until recently been propagated entirely by seed? Well one in every 10 or 20 has a seed. My partner reluctantly hung around the bins at Or Tor Kor a few years ago under instructions from me and intercepted 3 seeds. One grew and I gave it to a very reliable farmer for safe keeping and he doesnt realise its value. It is almost due to fruit. Maybe an enterprising maverick who finds themselves at the Utteraditt fruit festival can nab a few seeds and bring them into circulation.
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Thai varieties...
Agree with you, have seen some really small monthong tree's (atleast the fruit looks like it).
Thanks for the reference to the festival, will definetly try to match that with the next Thailand visit.
Mike, have you or any one else for that matter tried a Ken yao in Au that tastes like ken yao in Thailand? I have not, they are not even close to the Ken Yao I'v had in thailand. To pale color, not strong flavour and wrong flesh consistency here in Au. Have tried from three different farms.
There's amazing durian in Au but just haven't had the ken yao expereince here yet.
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Gaan Yeow in the local parlance and astute observation Cassowary. Yes kinda but mostly no. The reason is because what you have tried is not the real deal. In more innocent times in the late 70s and 80s when the Kamerunga Research Station captained by Brian Watson was in an acquisition and distribution phase, big batches of thai durians were mislabelled. Perhaps even wilfully at the source Much to research station staffs' future embarrassment the eggs were never properly unscrambled and stuck back in the shells. One Malaysian expert tried to put the correct names on everything after the horse had bolted and he produced keys that included leaf characters. Chanee and monthong were also caught up in the debacle and it seems none of the originals were actually Gaan yeow but they are here now.
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Have tried Chanee, Mon thong and Kan Yao in Thiland in the south and the north multiple years so yes indeed I know the real deal, that's why I was suspicious to the claimed Kan yao here in Au when it does not taste or look like it does in Thailand.
I doubt a common thai would mislabel the material in a sabotage atempt as my exerience with them is that they are quite honorable people. Even if there could be fincial interest at stake it's a far fetch without evidence. Probobly more likely mislabeld due to Au staff.
So where are they avaliable then? Happy if you could disclose. Maybe they are sent south and west for big dollar? Maybe tree's not mature yet? idk.
In northern Thailand in one market stall I remember there where a very small Durian veriety for sale for 400 bath a kilo vs 40-80 bath a kilo for M.T. it was called Li, could have been Lin since it would match with your price description of Lin and Laplae. It was avaliable in may/june. So this time of the year would be great for a visit if there wasen's such a pain to travel now.
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Mike i thought the dna testing done during the clone evaluation at bellenden ker circa 2000 cleared up a lot of the confusion as to what is what. No doubt its still a basket case in peoples actual back yards with all kinds of unknown trees before the dna testing was done.
Cassowary best of luck finding a gan yeow for sale locally or any cultivar for that matter, easier to find any illegal drug. All the best stuff from know cultivars is sent to brisbane, syd and melb same for rambutan etc, we are left with unkown stuff from backyard growers here. Unless you know people who know people your outta luck man.
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https://www.agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/publications/02-091.pdf (https://www.agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/publications/02-091.pdf)
Tropo surely you cant be referring to page 79 and 80 of this that recapitulates the same errors without 'reference points'.
Cassowary there was a prevailing view that an individual who didnt want monthong and Gaan Yeow distributed did it and yes it is not in line with the land of smiles cultural vibe.
The 2 stars of the durian world to which I referred are lin laplae and long laplae developed around Laplae village not far from Uttaradit. They do feature in the fruit festival there yes.So the claims of seedlessness, odourlessness, better taste and grown in a colder northerly climate are what results in the crazy prices paid for them.There was a publicity blizzard surrounding them a little over 10 years ago.
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I keep my grafted mongthong at about 3 meters tall. When i cut the stem i even sealed the cut but now the top end of the stem is rotting and bark is coming of. The branches underneath are still healthy though. I keep it at this size since 3-4 years now and it seems to be working.
Sunny do you recommend not sealing pruning cuts based on what you have seen?
Yes i would not seal the cuts, it doesn't help. And i cut the stem in the beginning of the dry season.
LapLae durian tree's in grafted version are not rare at all in Thailand...it tastes like butter i was told so i stopped chasing it. Gaen Yao also tastes like butter, and that's not my kind of durian, even not the top notch Gaan Yao durians which go for 500 us$ a piece and have to be booked in advance.
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https://www.agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/publications/02-091.pdf (https://www.agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/publications/02-091.pdf)
Tropo surely you cant be referring to page 79 and 80 of this that recapitulates the same errors without 'reference points'.
Cassowary there was a prevailing view that an individual who didnt want monthong and Gaan Yeow distributed did it and yes it is not in line with the land of smiles cultural vibe.
The 2 stars of the durian world to which I referred are lin laplae and long laplae developed around Laplae village not far from Uttaradit. They do feature in the fruit festival there yes.So the claims of seedlessness, odourlessness, better taste and grown in a colder northerly climate are what results in the crazy prices paid for them.There was a publicity blizzard surrounding them a little over 10 years ago.
Mike upon re reading the DNA section of that article you are right it doesn't exactly identify all the errors, the first time i read it I had thought it gave more valuable information than that.
RE the lin and long laplae cultivar are clones of these actually in Australia? If not it can be forgotten about no chance of it coming in now, guess someone can try grow a seedling and hope for the best.......
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Did see one d. zib tree at sugar world flower about 20 days ago, maybe due to stress but will be fun to follow up coming years and see if it's a pattern or just a one of occurrence. I don't know if the tree would be able to produce fruits at this time of year with winter on the doorstep.
I do know that Julatten tree's can produce fruit that drop in June due to their later flowering, and the fruits where delicious. Wouldn't hurt with durian in July :D
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Well spotted Cassowary and there is a reason for that. The last and third last trees in the row are seedlings of Colin Grays genuine Monthong. Both have a double season most years with fruit in October and March. I posted pics of the trees and their fruit in October. Sometimes seedlings turn out with more desirable characteristics than their parents.
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Wow great to hear that!
Got some seeds from Colin and fruits of farmstay so maybe in the future there will be some mature seedlings here with similar characteristics.
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Have enjoyed the discussion here :) I am looking to plant some durian trees next month in FNQ. Any suggestions on where to buy durian seedlings or grafted durian? Haven't moved in yet but keen to do research beforehand. Interestingly, the neighboring property has a couple of great looking durian trees. Looking forward to see them next season.
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By now this topic title should be modified to "Lots of Durian Discussion!"
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I purchased and consumed this from an Asian market. I perhaps may never have a chance to try fresh durian, but I did like this very much. Anyone have any insight on how this compares to fresh?
(https://i.postimg.cc/cv0t6qpJ/20210602-170138-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cv0t6qpJ)
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By now this topic title should be modified to "Lots of Durian Discussion!"
I disagree there should be more durian discussion, I would love to see an entire forum dedicated to durian and I’m sure if all those is SE Asia spoke English and used forums this would be possible. This is the KING of fruits after all.
Fruit nerd will send you a pm mate
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I purchased and consumed this from an Asian market. I perhaps may never have a chance to try fresh durian, but I did like this very much. Anyone have any insight on how this compares to fresh?
(https://i.postimg.cc/cv0t6qpJ/20210602-170138-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cv0t6qpJ)
Unless its flash frozen the texture is going to really suffer. Even with flash freezing the whole array of subtle tastes is changed somewhat.
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Friends just planted their prize seedlings of D,kutejensis x Zibethinus and it seems the prize selections of D.dulcis x D.zibethinus I dont think they has a surviving seedling. On their Borneo trip they did get the big fruiting selections of dulcis. Quite a few people in my area seem to have blackthorn seedlings and thes eare currently being planted out. Lets see how true they are.Blackthorn didnt become a star until it went from Thailand to Malaysia.
My big red prawn copped a fearsome prune as I wanted to punish it for 3 consecutive poor yielding years. Unless it gets its ship together it will be on mulch patrol soon.
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Mike that is some pretty serious action to potentially chop down your red prawn!!!!! Can anyone work out why they don’t do well here ? They tested best for cold tolerance so it can be that it’s too cold? Why do they do so well in Penang and not here? Penang averages around 2500mm of rain a year similar to cairns. I would love to know what the answer is. Maybe it’s the soil but surely they have been grown in all different types of soil here ?
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Its not gone yet but are light bearing compared to others in the experience of people growing it around FNQ.Not sure why but the vigour of the tree is not matched by productivity
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So what are yalls favorite variety? I think mine is sitebel and chanee close second. Not a big fan of bitter flavor.
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Its not gone yet but are light bearing compared to others in the experience of people growing it around FNQ.Not sure why but the vigour of the tree is not matched by productivity
Mike, Please swap or barter me a seed before you swing the axe on the Ang heh tree!
But I have to write that the fruit from the described tree does not look like a "Red Prawn/Ang heh" judging the color of the aril from an image at http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=41237.msg405692#msg405692 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=41237.msg405692#msg405692)
I also showed a friend the image and the friend said it didn't look like it and the the friend have been to Penang island many times. Only judging one image here so it's speculation and not trying to to hate or so, I thought maybe the tree isn't doing well because it's an inferior offspring.
fliptop posted about frozen durian above. I spend considerable amounts of money on imported and local frozen durian and have found with the imported ones that brand and batch is very important, so if I am not doing a bulk order sometimes I'll buy the shitty ones they have so that they get new stock and the ones follow is usually fresh and great. So if people get a bad tasting frozen durian then it's possible it's a old batch. Good frozen durian is delicious and is not to far off from the fresh taste. I don't get the whole durian with husk since it's not space efficient in the freezer and the "cryovac" from Thailand is great, better then all the Malaysian frozen I'v had for double the price.
Gogu,
My favorite is Balinese seedling durian tree's that produce tiny fruit that pretty much only have one big aril with one big seed, usually very white flesh and concentrated flavour, nothing beats them for me because I love the strong ones. Also a batch from a wild tree (Baan) in krabi had insanely strong flavour, never had that strong elsewhere.
Have anyone tried "Bawor" druian? Have seen some videos on youtube and it looks like it has lot's of aborted seeds and great yeild.
Does anyone know if d. kinabaluensis fruit is hard to find around the area of Kinabalu ?like for sale or tree's on the road side etc.
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Cassowary I am wounded by the assertion that I have been harbouring an imposter all these years and that ID from a fruit I harvested indicates its something else based on flesh colour. Just kidding pal and fair call.
I am pretty lazy and should really take pix in natural light outside instead of in the kitchen at night on the bench to see the natural colour. I am confident the scions brought from penang were in fact the real deal. The mother tree was part of a study on the Zapalla farm by the illustrious durian expert Low. The tree architecture, and fruit characteristics of mine match written descriptions of D175 quite neatly.
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So what are yalls favorite variety? I think mine is sitebel and chanee close second. Not a big fan of bitter flavor.
Unfortunately here unless you grow them yourself buying fruit from clone varieties is almost impossible it all gets sent to the cities. In saying that the two known varieties that I have manged to be able to try are cipaku and kradum thong and both tasted great to me. However I have also tried quite a few unknown seedlings from fruit fallen fresh from the tree and these have also been great, I couldn't honestly say that the kradum thong and cipaku were any better than the unknown seedlings they are all great to me Im yet to taste a bad durian off the tree.
I can only imagine how unbelievable the big guns such as musang king and black thorn must taste they must be incredible. I probably wont be tasting these for a long time as I dont think a trip to malaysia is on the cards any time soon.
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So what are yalls favorite variety? I think mine is sitebel and chanee close second. Not a big fan of bitter flavor.
Arancillo was quite sweet and carmelish making it one of my favorites so far.
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So what are yalls favorite variety? I think mine is sitebel and chanee close second. Not a big fan of bitter flavor.
Arancillo was quite sweet and carmelish making it one of my favorites so far.
I had frozen arancillo from yearofthedurian, and it was really good, but it was nothing like it was described as. It was very "plain" tasting. Not sure if it was picked early or mislabeled.
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So what are yalls favorite variety? I think mine is sitebel and chanee close second. Not a big fan of bitter flavor.
Arancillo was quite sweet and carmelish making it one of my favorites so far.
I had frozen arancillo from yearofthedurian, and it was really good, but it was nothing like it was described as. It was very "plain" tasting. Not sure if it was picked early or mislabeled.
I really doubt you're going to get full favor profile from frozen durian, even when picked at prime stage, and even when flash frozen using best technology and rapid shipping. I had flash frozen Musang King and Black Thorn, and while they were indeed very good, they were not as good as fresh seedling durians i eat right off my trees. But none of this is very surprising, is it?
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So what are yalls favorite variety? I think mine is sitebel and chanee close second. Not a big fan of bitter flavor.
Arancillo was quite sweet and carmelish making it one of my favorites so far.
I had frozen arancillo from yearofthedurian, and it was really good, but it was nothing like it was described as. It was very "plain" tasting. Not sure if it was picked early or mislabeled.
I really doubt you're going to get full favor profile from frozen durian, even when picked at prime stage, and even when flash frozen using best technology and rapid shipping. I had flash frozen Musang King and Black Thorn, and while they were indeed very good, they were not as good as fresh seedling durians i eat right off my trees. But none of this is very surprising, is it?
No doubt we aren't getting the full flavor we would if we were there when it were fresh picked but I'll take it over no durian!
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Mike, Me and my friend thinks the fruit shape is of Ang heh and the green skin could be green cause it does not receive as much sun as fruit in Penang with the way they prune or due to very big old durian tree's with very open canopies, similar to how very old Quandong tree's form their canopy (deviating from single erect leader).
Have anyone tried to field graft scion onto the trunk of mature durian tree's? Have seen it done on youtube but don't know how well it works out.
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In Malaysia durian trees are routinely top worked. They cut the tree off and cleft graft onto a sprout.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sByNK81n/231-F0-F2-F-4802-4949-8-A02-7-EB564-C25-F78.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sByNK81n)
Durian is agile and you could top work a whole orchard.
Peter
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Planted a prize seedling today of Kutejensis x dulcis so hope it survives. Yes red prawn is a little more cone shaped than most and it isnt a sunshine issue. You just have to test various selections and varieties to see how they perform in each environment.
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Mike can you elaborate a bit more on this cross? I tasted a durio dulcis and whilst it tasted good it had hardly any flesh and wasn’t worth planting in my view too small and not enough flesh compared to standard durian.
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Dulcis is too small, has flesh yield that isnt high enough and has a slight element in the flavour profile that some call cough medicine. There are larger fruiting lines in borneo and in the wild. When they cross to better eating species like zibethinus and kutejensis the fruit are really good and stand out. I have not sampled these but friends have and selected these as special seeds that needed to be collected. I have a small seedling of one such plant.
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There’s a few inter specie crosses of durians that have a good reputation. We’re growing Suluk seedlings which is a graveleons/zibethinis cross. Another is less well known called bunga merah which means 'red flower'. I have grafted material of bunga merah which I think is a zibethinis/Kutejensis cross. The Suluk is from Borneo and the bunga merah is from Perak. There are several good hybrids coming from Java as well.
Good to have planting space available as there will always be something new and worthwhile to plant.
Peter
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I only know suluk by reputation and it is probably the best known hybrid and held in high regard. Yeah wouldn't mind one of those but you just have to play the cards dealt.I also has access to a bunga merah seedling but it was one or the other.I need trees to volunteer for mulch patrol and that why the red prawn might go. I have limited space and some truly big guns of the fruiting world may soon fall into my hands. I have planted a few trees lately that fall into the must have category.
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Thanks for that Info mike and peter very interesting stuff. With local conditions set for an artic blast tonight I have brought my prized durians inside, temperature here last night got down to 15.5c (60f) and could get even colder tonight !!!!!
We only get a handful of nights like this a year a nice break from the usual heat.
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That's crazy talk it an Antarctic blast and the mercury is in freefall here also. I planted a lindero and squat garcinias today and hope all my new plantings dont suffer. It could tp to 14c in the morning or less. People will go to work dressed like shackleton or Edmund Hillary on the south face.
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I imagine that you guys are alright at 14-15C for a short spell. Florida and California get much more serious cold. If it gets to 19 here we are wrapped up but that misery doesn’t occur to often.
Peter
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It hit 13.8 here this morning and yep I will be going to work dressed like Edmund Hillary lol I don’t cope with the cold well. Looks even cooler down your way mike cairns airport hit 12.8 !!!! With the race course a sub Antarctic 12c.
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In Malaysia durian trees are routinely top worked. They cut the tree off and cleft graft onto a sprout.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sByNK81n/231-F0-F2-F-4802-4949-8-A02-7-EB564-C25-F78.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sByNK81n)
Durian is agile and you could top work a whole orchard.
Peter
Great with the image also! I believe a long pole would have to be supporting that new shoot, due to the wind I get here.
I wounder if those selected crosses would be from deliberate crossing or selected from natural crosses. Like wild zib with dulcis or like D24 with dulcis...
The lowest I'v got recorded this year is 18C. Lowest ever I have recorded is 13C.
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Have a question,
If you got one dripp emitter (shrubbler 0-32L min) for each durian, where would you put it?
Using the dripp to keep the small tree's alive during the dry season.
At the trunk? At the edge of the branches? Or would you move it around the tree on a regular basis? etc.
Don't have enought pressure for mico sprinklers yet but maybe in the future.
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Cassowary im not an expert but im watering my young durian by hand at the moment every day as we are now well headed into the dry. I try to water just slightly away from the trunk as I read some literature somewhere that mentioned not watering the trunk directly as it contributes to root/fungal diseases?
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Thanks for the input, will do a trial and see if there's any fungal issue with close watering :)
You will eventually be rewarded for your watering dilligence :D
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Cassowary I hope I’m rewarded I’m putting all my effort into my durian. I figure if Peter Salleras can get them to fruit in 4 years then so can I by hand raising them so to speak.
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In Malaysia durian trees are routinely top worked. They cut the tree off and cleft graft onto a sprout.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sByNK81n/231-F0-F2-F-4802-4949-8-A02-7-EB564-C25-F78.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sByNK81n)
Durian is agile and you could top work a whole orchard.
Peter
I topped one of my 2 mature seedling trees this week - over 10m tall and trunk girth 300mm. Really hard to pollinate , hardly any fruit and they were crap anyway.
Hoping to get some expert help grafting the stump in a month or so. Based in their advice left one lower branch in place for now - apparently makes the tree less likely to die from stress.
Probably try a local cultivar that’s really popular called Peter Knutsford. The tree is is 14 years old so if the grafts take and with the root system it has it should take off like a rocket .
I’ll post up pictures of the progress
Cheers Jim
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Awsome stuff Jim I will be interested to see your progress and how you go about doing this.
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Hey Andrew - Interesting journey 🙂. I have left it at about head height to keep the leafy branch but want to graft lower down than that and chop the rest off once it’s successful.
Peter I found a couple of videos of guys cleft grafting new shoots in the way you described. The other common one seems to be guys peeling back sections of bark and inserting scions onto the side of the trunk. I have no idea which would provide the strongest origin for a new tree as it were - logic would suggest to me that grafts onto new shoots generated by the original tree would do best ?
Not sure what we will do yet.
Drop by when you are next down this way Troppo. The red prawn, sunan and gumpun have come on well this year. I am going to up my attention to fertilisation this year - adding nitrophoska to the simple chook poo I have haphazardly used previously. The leaves on a few are looking a bit washed out and mineral deficient to me. Started putting a thick layer of crusher dust into the mulch and should start mineral foliage soaks
Cheers Jim
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hey tropo why don't you calculate the time spent on hand watering and compare it to a simple irrigation system with same L/Day as you are putting on now. If you have the water to bucket you have the water to fill the pipe unless your tree's are upp hill from the water source and then material cost goes up with pump cost.
In the beginning we where hand watering with buckets but I calculated it and found we would come out better with pipe, and pipe "never" forgets to water :)
IF (total annual time spent watering)*(hourly wort in $) IS MORE THEN (cost of materials + intallation cost + annual mantanaince cost in $) THEN it makes sense to put a irrigation system in.
IF (total annual time spent watering)*(your hourly wort in $) IS LESS THEN (cost of materials + intallation cost + annual mantanaince cost cost in $) THEN keep bucketing if you can bear it :)
This formula is for one year, piping last longer but it get's complicated to include lifecycle depreciation into this and if irrigation comes out better for one year it's definetly worth it financially in my opinion.
Hey Jim, at 10m tall and trunk girth 300mm I am woundering about the age of the tree's, if you could let me know, thanks.
Crusher dust is cheap that's for sure. If there any reports on this being beneficial or are you having a go at it?
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In Malaysia I have seen some strange grafting practices that I don’t really understand. But I’ve also seen grafting that makes perfect sense to me and it is what I’m used to doing so that would decide it for me. Perhaps the tree will bud out much lower than where you cut it off.
I believe that rock dust accomplishes two things for me. What I’ve seen in Penang is that the soil is gritty. My soil is clay loam with no sand or anything. So we get some texture to balance out the soil a tad. The other is that, over time, it will release minerals slowly to my benefit.
Something that they apply every 2 weeks is a foliage spray calcium with boron and a little N. They swear by this and it’s not because their soil is acidic. They say the ph is 6.5.
Peter
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Thanks Peter now it makes sense to me.
Crusher dust is synonymous with rock dust which is a bi-product from mining and thus very fine and high in minerals.
I can see it's value as soil structure ammendment. But the rate at which the rock is broken down by microbial acids must be very low so to me it does seam inferior to organic material when talking about increasing the humus layer or plant avaliable nutrients.
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Hi Cassawory
The tree was about 15 years old …. I haven’t been structured with fertilising - could have progressed much faster I think.
I have started using the crusher dust on the advice of Neil from Limberlost - he says it is synonymous with rock dust. His suggestion is to put a thick layer on top of a thick layer of standard type mulch. He reckons that the acids produced by the mulch degradation helps to break down and release the mineral content from it
Peter it would be nice if some buds did come out lower …. We may actually try a few methods as the person helping me has access to the optimal PK for scions
Cheers
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Cassowary eventually i will set up some sort of irrigation system at the moment I dont mind hand watering daily.
Jim I havent put any crusher dust down on mine yet just mulch, i have a weekly cycle of liquid power feed one week and seasol the next week and continue to do this, i also use a combination of nitrophoska special and organic fertlisers around the trees.
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Hey Andrew
Just wondering …. Can adding fertiliser to the soil every week be too much?
I remember reading in the okd tropical forum about some guy locally who poisoned his trees with over fertilising
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Jim I only rotate the foliar fert and seasol weekly the fertiliser I use around the trunk only once every few months or so.
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I planted out our first durian 2 weeks ago, unfortunately we got some hot sunny weather shortly after I planted it and it got a bit burnt. Lost a few leaves but looks like it will pull through. Should of given it a bit more shelter to start with. Hand watering too most days.
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Always shelter newly planted durians no matter what season. Rock dust does nothing as nutrients too tightly bound. Crusher dust does less than nothing and isnt even basalt. Listen to Neil and do the opposite I suggest. Power foliage feeding is ok for small stuff in pots I guess but can never supply a decent proportion of growing durians needs.Don't go crazy with fertiliser as it is a main cause of problems. Not more than 3 or 4 times a year for those in the ground. Be selective with good NPKs with micros and not too close to the trunk.
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Thanks for the information Mike T. I have some given it some protection now. Lesson learned. I will be more careful with the next durians I plant.
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Jim if you don't mind me asking. How many seasons did you try the fruit of the seedlings? where they always bad?
Had experience with a seedling tree having different fruit quality from one year to the next: one year big seeds, not much aril and bad taste and the next year aprox. half of the seeds aborted, good yeild and great taste.
So sometimes they change a lot it seams. Have also expereinced tree's that put out identical fruit every year (four years in a row). Not from my trees's from a friends durian orchard and the fruits get tagged so no confusion.
fruit nerd, if they get to burnt the recovery is very slow in my experience. We only plant tree's between december and april now, lost to many the first two years planting haphazardly. And some of the one's we'v planted at the right time of the year have over taken the older ones so not always better to just get them in the ground, in my opinion.
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Always shelter newly planted durians no matter what season. Rock dust does nothing as nutrients too tightly bound. Crusher dust does less than nothing and isnt even basalt. Listen to Neil and do the opposite I suggest. Power foliage feeding is ok for small stuff in pots I guess but can never supply a decent proportion of growing durians needs.Don't go crazy with fertiliser as it is a main cause of problems. Not more than 3 or 4 times a year for those in the ground. Be selective with good NPKs with micros and not too close to the trunk.
I think the crusher dust here is good because it is volcanic rock, as good or better than granite dust. Yes minerals are tightly bound, so it takes long time for them to break down. But durian trees are going to be there many years. So it's good to add if you can get good quality dust for cheap price, like here.
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Thanks Mike … not really sure what’s best then 😄 I assumed he knew what he was talking about
Cassawory was a few years. Seedling tree from same batch(Limberlost) easy to hand pollinate with consistent tasty fruit - 80 fruit last time.
The one I cut generally gets about 5 fruit even with extensive hand pollinating and every year they taste the same … bit of a cabbage flavour.
I have to hand pollinate as there is virtually no life in my trees at night - the orchard where I collect pollen is alive with moths and bats
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Planting time from December to April most likely optimal for durian, however i planted my grafted trees on the 10th of July this year so dead set middle of winter and they are now pushing out multiple buds already in less than a month. This has been a much warmer winter than average though. I feel that when we hit september and the days warm up properly my trees are going to go gang busters. September is supposed to be the time of greatest new flush according to work at bellen den ker circa 2000.
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If you live in FNQ and have a mean streak and want to kill your your durian October to December planting will probably achieve that. 27c to 36c with tropical summer sun, even if rainy is not appreciated. I actually think April May June plantings are better if winter is not too cold.
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If you live in FNQ and have a mean streak and want to kill your your durian October to December planting will probably achieve that. 27c to 36c with tropical summer sun, even if rainy is not appreciated. I actually think April May June plantings are better if winter is not too cold.
Agree with you Mike, October to Dec is a really bad planting time (learn't that the hard way). It's not pleasant for the the one digging either and I myself prefer planting in the cooling rain rather then in the intense sun.
21st of Dec is summer solstice this year and that's around the time when I will start and that's usually around the time the rains come for us here but will wait for the first big rain to come. The soil gotta be easy to dig into, if it's still dryish and hard I postpone (digging in hard soil is painfull). Timmed like this last year and had better survival rate of durian seedlings.
I think around may is when some southerners come up to plant natives with the NGO's around here, probobly best for them as the wet would make them go tropo.
Iv seen that when I plant in may/june durian do ok until sep/october and then they start to suffer. I assume roots are not established enough to deliver fluid to the leafs as it get's dryer and more intense sun.
Thanks Jim, will help me select trees as your experience can give me some confidence to remove un-desireable tree's.
One durian farmer I spoke to said the native fan palm is desired by the native bats that are nectarivores. Mybe it's the flowers they like or maybe it's a suitable habitat. Maybe some palms and some low growing moth-larve host plants "could" increase the population and thus "could" increase pollination. We got large amounts here, they even fly into the house sometimes!
Gone tropo,
September would be between summer and winter solstice, can't see any reason why plants would grow more then compared to around the summer solstice (theoretical peak summer temperature). Average temp for sep is lower then dec so growth rate shouldn't be higher in sep unless we take water and nutrients into the function. https://en.climate-data.org/oceania/australia/queensland/cairns-589/
And durian thrive in equatorial regions where average annual would be around 26 C. https://en.climate-data.org/asia/indonesia/central-kalimantan-1214/
And here we only have those average temps montly temps in dec, jan, feb. If I read the data right.
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Cassowary its been a little while since i read the big study they did at zappalas at belen den ker around 2000 but im 99% sure that report stated that the greatest new flush was in september. I agree with you I would have thought it would be mid December or middle of wet season, i will recheck the report to make sure this is correct.
EDIT i just checked the report and this is what it stated
5.3.2 Tree Phenology
New flush activity occurred throughout most of the monitoring period with a major peak in spring
(late September) and a smaller peak in mid December following a dormant period through October
and November (Figure 15). The patterns of flushing are similar for trees grown on both soil types.
Despite relatively cool conditions from May through to the end of September (minimum
temperatures ranging from 10° to 18° C) there was active vegetative flushing taking place during this
time.
In north Queensland during the 1999 season, there
were 4 flushing periods, with the peak flush occurring through September. The differences between
NT and NQ flushing patterns is most likely due to temperature and relative humidity differences,
with NT having a lower relative humidity during May to October. In conclusion, shoot activity is
more prolific then imagined, with trees exhibiting the ability to remain vegetatively active during
periods of relatively cool conditions.
In north Queensland durian shoot development appears to be active
throughout the year despite the relatively cool conditions which occur during the winter months.
This finding concurs with that observed by Mansfield (1995). These conditions are considerably
cooler than the tree experiences in its native environment yet tree shoot development appears to be
unaffected. Notably peak shoot production occurred from late September as night and day
temperatures increased. This may have also coincided with a period of higher radiation inputs.
Observations have revealed that flushing activity often occurs in parts of the tree rather than
uniformly over the canopy. Hence it is rare that flushing activity on any single tree is synchronous.
Activity also varies considerably from tree to tree within the same block and variety. Hence, it was
not unusual for trees side by side to exhibit entirely different phases of activity. This feature makes it
difficult to present any realistic generalisation of flushing activity, because the variation among
individual trees is high.
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I have planted some of my grafts out in this time to get some roots established prior to the wet.
I always start them in a shade cage - 80% cloth and they are all connected to my irrigation and get watered every night. Very obvious if the irrigation goes off - they are struggling within a day.
The hardest time I have found is when they are a couple of years old and they are outgrowing the shade house - mine have all struggled ( all very wilted at the end of the day)for a couple of years before toughening up - must be toot ball getting to critical mass I think
Cheers Jim
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Root not toot ! 🙄🙄
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Yes agree they don't like the change from shade to full sun. And if water is withdrawn they suffer. Have some direct seeded ones that survive by themselves.
Have special pots now to try and make them more resilient on their own, 50cm high so hopefully this will help keep some roots cool and moist once planted. Had better succes with 20L pots then the 4.5L pots so wanted to try with a very deep homemade pot. Made from PVC pipe and PVC cap with lots of holes.
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I think that 80% cloth is a lot. Perhaps if you need that then somehow you could gradually go to full sun by switching to 50% or something. We go from 70% to being shaded by glyrcidium which gets slowly pruned away until the trees are perhaps 1.5m and the rainy season is starting.
Peter
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I start with 80% and they grow really well in that - the sun is really intense here even in winter.
Then I change to 25-50% after a year or two
They are at their happiest early on.
The big durian grower south of here has his trees trellis’d and even the adult trees are mostly given some sun protection under long sections of shade cloth that pull over the trellis structure
Cheers Jim
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I still have two durian trees under the house (one seedling/one grafted). They are getting a couple of hours sunlight in the morning and are both looking great with new growth. What would your recommendation be for planting these? Considering we will be going into spring shortly, do you think it would be better to wait until late December?
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I’ve said what I have found by trial and error. I can’t tell you what is right or wrong .
The whole waiting for December and the wet season thing to me doesn’t hold weight with young durians here - in my experience they need water every day in this climate until they are a few years old - so I don’t see the point basing planting decisions around the wet season - particularly as ours are so unpredictable.
I do think that letting them get established by protecting them allows them to settle in and you reap the benefits of the wet season.
The lady who I have got all mine off seems to think that is a sound plan
Once again I have very little experience / expertise - I’m learning as I go along
But … in FNQ I have shaded mine and watered them every day and they have all done ok - you got get them in the ground some time 😄😄
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Thanks for info. This next week should be wet so might be a good time to plant them then. Will definitely want to get some cloth protection.
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It certainly makes sense to me that if you shade them AND are going to water every day it doesn’t rain they should do well. Why wouldn’t they?
Peter
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gone troppo,
radiation, maybe this is a major factor then, as suggested by the paper. "This may have also coincided with a period of higher radiation inputs." Kinda makes sense when I think about it, why flush new leafs if there's not high radiance to collect for the plant.
Jim, "The whole waiting for December and the wet season thing to me doesn’t hold weight with young durians here - in my experience they need water every day in this climate until they are a few years old - so I don’t see the point basing planting decisions around the wet season - particularly as ours are so unpredictable."
My hypotesis is, they probobly need water EVERY day becuase you are planting OUT SIDE of the wet season and/or maybe your tree's are planted with the wrong method (to shallow root system, to small hole idk) or you have too small root systems on your durian to begin with, maybe try some bigger pots or some root pruning pots.
"you got get them in the ground some time" - potted plants are a big investment so should be planted at a proper time of the year (I know we differ on timing) or re-potted to a bigger pot so not to lose that investment due to impulse.
fruit nerd, I have already fallen to that alluring idea "to plant during the dry season when you get a short wet", they might do well while the short wet is on and temps are quite low and sun is quite low but afterwards closer to summer they usually go down hill (in my previous experiance). If your durians are in 4.5L pots put them in a 14L pot so then when you plant during the wet the roots will be healthier. Roots are primary to leafs, so care for the plants roots more then it's leafs. I recommend you to install the shadecloth in a way that makes weeding inside easy, I had issue at first when I put my shade fronds to tight to the tree, very hard to weed.
finca,
have struggled to find gliricida sepim but have used pointsiana, inga sp. and cassava instead and it's worked well in conjuction with coconut fronds. I have seen people in Thailand use coconut fronds as shade for durian in new orchard. I love it as it just becomes mulch when old and usually at that time the tree is strong enough.
living tree's are great as they persipitate water also.
Can also use loading pallets around the plant as a box, saw one farmer around this area use this for mangosteen as his previous shade cloth still got them burnt in the sun.
Cassava have been great as a wind barrier around the durian trees and also for shade, so easy to plant from cutting too. If i had gliricida I would use that too.
Found a tree at a friends place with one healthy durian fruit on it so there's big hopes for off season durian in the future as more tree's get's planted!
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Cassowary I think you are basically right nut you dont need to water every day in this climate. I have a 50cm monthong and 30cm dulcis x kutejensis which I have removed the shelters from as they get only about 2 or 3 hours of sun a day. They get watered about weekly as there has been plenty of rain and they are booming. as the sun intensifies I will monitor and put shelter back if needed but I doubt it will be. I only water when the soil is visily dry. Just go by the specific location and soil type, wind exposure, hours of sun etc. BTW is see a few flower buds on my big durians. My red prawn isnt half the tree it used to be since it was chopped down to size over performance issues.
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Interesting, Cassowary. I have the impression that cassava is hard on soil, ends up depleting the soil. How about Mexican sunflower of flemengia, for bushy prunable beneficial shade.
Incidentally, I saw glircidium in Borneo. Quite the surprise!
Peter
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Cassawory I planted mine all out from the original black bags I got them in … probably 3-4 litres. Never did transfer them to bigger pots to get a bigger rootball. May well have something to do with it - maybe they would have been more resilient with a bigger root ball to start with - there is no way I could have left them a week without water… really wilted after just a couple of days.
I knew nothing and there was no info like this … I was always fixated on getting them in young so that the tap root would have the best chance of developing at its best potential - in my mind it seemed really important with the cyclones etc .
Mine are all in a suburban garden with an irrigation system so it’s really easy - you guys planting them commercially have a whole different set of challenges
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Jim I never transferred mine to bigger pots either and like you I wanted to get them in the ground sooner rather than later. I take measurements of mine every month both height and girth of trunk @ 150mm above the graft they have had constant growth since I have had them even through winter.
Admittedly I obsess about them and look after them like my children checking them every day and am pushing them a bit harder than most probably are. I don’t want to be waiting for 8-10 years for fruit Peter Salleras who is of course a world expert is getting fruit in less than 4 years in some Cases so he is setting the bar of what is possible in our climate.
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I agree that IF you can take care of them in every way they will develop faster in the ground than in a pot. Same goes for mangosteen.
Peter
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Hello,
does anyone know which cultivars of durian are able to self pollinate? I read an short article where Chanee is described as 100% self sterile, but I couldn't find any further information on that topic.
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I really don’t think Chanee is 100% sterile. Most selections benefit from cross pollination.
D-99/Gradom sets fruit great on its own. We have a seedling that produces very well on its own. So we are planting those two along with chanee, musang king, etc. for better pollination.
Peter
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Hello,
does anyone know which cultivars of durian are able to self pollinate? I read an short article where Chanee is described as 100% self sterile, but I couldn't find any further information on that topic.
Mongthong also isn't good in pollinating its own variety, best is to plant different varieties and make sure they are not in compost/organic soil and on a sloping ground.
My mongthong makes small fruits which tend to drop at egg size...don't know if that is a pollination issue but it's sad to see.
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Anyone had issues with swarming leaf beetles?
Have not been keeping an eye on the trees for a few weeks for various reasons and have come back to find my sunan tree in pretty bad shape!!
The pictures show the patterns of damage on the leaves and there is a lot of damage to the terminal new shoots too! The main growing tip has been destroyed.
Apparently if you live near bush these beetles swarm periodically and are very partial to durian trees !!
Took a lead to a local nursery and they reckoned that’s what it was
Strangely the smaller trees near it are mostly unaffected but this one has taken an absolute hiding!
Sprayed it all with Maverick ( tau-fluvalinate) which is supposed to be bee/person friendly
Keep an eye out in FNQ … it started a few weeks ago but was mild and I ignored it
(https://i.postimg.cc/dkM6NT1n/08818-F3-F-3-D0-F-4-AA7-B33-E-37-ADD2-A89559.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkM6NT1n)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1fyCZ6Kj/4651-CE0-D-EDDF-4-C14-AB08-2123-D7-ED4-B71.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1fyCZ6Kj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HrhB5N1q/ECB74500-1177-49-B6-8-ADB-0-B1-AE0-C9-CF2-E.png) (https://postimg.cc/HrhB5N1q)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LJY0ySD9/BC027-DE8-1-A4-A-4-B2-B-B61-F-FCBD774-D5679.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LJY0ySD9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gxCtQ7tv/C5430-D3-C-5-E35-43-E6-962-F-8-B7-DF980-C69-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gxCtQ7tv)
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Far out Jim that don’t look to good at all. I can’t say I have seen that here yet but I will check the trees closely when the sun comes up. I might have to hit them with some lorzban just to be sure
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Doesn’t look too good. We have different kinds of grasshoppers and katydids that eat durian foliage. There’s two shifts, some that work in the daytime and others at night. Damage is highest on young trees where there can be a considerable setback. Larger trees seem to get by alright.
Peter
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I have had them before and they go for a few species. If the tree is not flowering then imadoclaprid mixed with a topical might work best. There are quite a few swarming foliage eating beetles and I presume it is a very small brown day active one. Neonicotenoids adversely impact bees when applied to trees just before or during flowering,
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Mike is the imadoclaprid put on the soil ?
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Cassowary I think you are basically right nut you dont need to water every day in this climate. I have a 50cm monthong and 30cm dulcis x kutejensis which I have removed the shelters from as they get only about 2 or 3 hours of sun a day. They get watered about weekly as there has been plenty of rain and they are booming. as the sun intensifies I will monitor and put shelter back if needed but I doubt it will be. I only water when the soil is visily dry. Just go by the specific location and soil type, wind exposure, hours of sun etc. BTW is see a few flower buds on my big durians. My red prawn isnt half the tree it used to be since it was chopped down to size over performance issues.
Wow you got a d x k, I wounder how the flowers will look :)
"Just go by the specific location and soil type..." Yeah that's very important, so many different spots and they require different input. I am still learning :)
Wow flowers, gotta go out and check out our big tree's, usually it's around october here but who knows .
Finca,
Yes have about 50 mexican sunflowers to go out now. So I am keen to try that out!
I don't harvest the yucca, just leave it there or chop and dropp and let it die as the tree's get bigger, the big roots aerate the soil well once rotted and provide carbohydrates to the soil.
Jim,
Yeah I totally support you when you say you want them in early to get good straight roots for wind durability.
I think if the tree's come from nursery they roots are not optimal cause they are mostly started in native plant tubes (short narrow pots), they root prune ok but far from good enough. And the skinny poly bags create the most root circling I have found. The wider circular pots or very long square pots are better in my opinion if air pruning pots arn't avaliable.
Here's an image of a DIY PVC tap root friendly air pruning pot for durian and large seeded tree's that I have designed and made, got inspire by other DIY air pruning pots. Also use the comerical air pruning pots for small seeded plants (smaller seed = shorter tap root (for a given time frame)), like terap, annonace...
As comparison are two different typ of starter tubes used for (native) tree's around this area. They are to short in my opinion and don't create healthy enough roots I think.
I prefer to direct plant the seeds in these pots but sometimes I start seeds in rat proof enclosure and transplant very young to the long pot, eventually will have enough space of these posts in the enclosure.
When I plant, I remove the bottom cap and let the tree slide out through the pot, this way no soil falls away from the roots as the pot is withdrawn from the hole soil is there so support and keet it together. I also add a rubber list to the top of the pot so that branches don't get damaged by the sharp pvc edge.
I use a tool to press the plant out if it's not coming out by gravity. So plants can't be to big or the branches will have an issue going through the pot hole at the top, have triend and it worked well with durian.
The saucer is there to provide moisture (reverse osmosis) (have above ground sprinkler to fill it) until I can see the tap root comming at the botton (this is around the time (12 months) when I plan to plant them out), if I don't plant then they will be lifted above ground. Will hopefully make a youtube video in the future with plenty of details. Pots are about 50cm high, that's about the maximum tap root lenght d. zib have at 12 months I read before, couldn't find reference, sorry.
(https://i.postimg.cc/21J3kBzG/tap-root-air-pruning-pot-durian-cassowary.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/21J3kBzG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9rYGQbSp/tap-root-air-pruning-pot-cassowary-2.png) (https://postimg.cc/9rYGQbSp)
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Very informative Cassawory!!
Pretty much at my limit for space unless I start planting them in the bush land adjacent to my garden🤔
What cultivars are you growing ?
Cheers
Jim
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Thanks Jim,
Why not try planting some seeds in the bush land, with the shade they might survive by themselves :D
I get a 10% survival in the bush cause some dry out and some get eaten by the white rat. Natural selection.
I don't have any cultivars. I only have one vegetative clone and it's from an exceptional tree with unknown heritage (the best overall out of 150 seedling trees). Otherwise there is only seedlings from seeds collected around the tropics of the world as I want to select myself and want specific traits (not like what most gov. dep. want). Fruit size <20cm, lots of bitterness, thornless fruit, thick husk, natural miniature tree and will also select durio species crosses that will be suitable futher south in AU.
In a couple of days the first flowers are gonna open on one tree, excited for the season!
How's it looking for you Jim? Any flowers?
And for anyone else?
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My trees are far from flowering but they are really hammering at the moment trunk thickness is increasing by quite a lot, new growth coming out everywhere right now. I just recently planted out a seedling kradom thong which is only tiny (11cm high) but i expect it to get its roots down and start hammering real soon too.
Im pushing everything to the max which is just my nature maybe it will all implode or maybe they will keep going hard time will tell.
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Cassawory
Flowers already !!?? That’s early! One branch in my only flowering tree has a few flower buds but they are totally not self fertilising ….. how about the one you have flowering ? Is it self compatible ?
Your “ unknown” sounds really intriguing and I am in the same page re bitterness etc
I’m travelling in the NT atvthe moment so will see what’s happening when I get home
Are you down mission beach way ?
Cheers
Jim
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Jim,
North of Mossman.
It's only a light first flowering, the second should be visible soon and other places around have flowers comming on now too.
Regarding the self fertility, probobly not but as more tree's mature there will hopefully be more early flowers and some cross pollination :D
tropo, got a kradum thong seedling from trina, have been growing well and hopefully precocious!
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Kradum is self fertile and an excellent early pollinator.
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I read a funny article. Apparently, some Australians in Canberra smelled a gas leak and called firefighters. No gas leak, just durian. Since Australia has not followed the lead of some Asian counties and banned durian from some public spaces, it seems this sort of thing now happens with regularity. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/firefighters-scoured-an-australian-neighborhood-looking-for-a-gas-leak-they-found-a-durian-instead/ar-AAPyaue?ocid=msedgntp
I have never had durian, only read stories and watched videos of other people eating it. But, I once cleared out a room with some Limburger cheese, so I think I have a pretty good idea of durian's effect on people.
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At my office I had a durian and marang I thought contained but there were complaints of odour. I accused the complainers of being anti-fruit crusaders but I lost there war. Security had been looking for a gas leak as I found out later.
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Finca, sounds great hopefully the seedling that I got exhibit those traits :D It's gonna get a bit of extra attention now!
Haha, humans rejecting perfect natural foods and even doing it passionately. I guess some are used to fried wallpaper glue and road kill. Atleast wallpaper glue has some inherent certainty compared to fruit but it's for sure not epicurian fare like marang and durian...
A friend told me he have one tree (seedling) that have had fruit on it continiously since last year's first flowering and it's flowering now again with one fruit still hanging. (though it's a very, very low yeilding tree). A 100 of those could maybe supply enough for a year around consumption :D
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(https://i.postimg.cc/0zptjGDL/3-DD27007-E64-E-4-FBD-A679-35-EFE3722489.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zptjGDL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WdWvWPfN/47-C23-DB8-879-B-4-AC6-A738-2620-DE5-ECEBF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdWvWPfN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RWrsvp67/AA5530-A3-3719-4305-9914-2-C00301-FF6-F5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWrsvp67)
Update on the large tree I cut down to graft onto. I was advised to leave at least one branch or run the increased risk of the tree dying. I was concerned I may not get any new shoots lower down on the trunk ( I want to start the new tree as low as I can) and so Trina suggested ringbarking the tree around 50% of it’s diameter to stimulate new shoots below the cut.
As you can see it worked well!! … the lower pictures are from a couple of months ago just after I cut it.
We will have a go at cleft grafting onto several
If the new shoots soon
Cheers Jim
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Nice work. I’m doing something similar with marang/terap.
Peter
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I would love to try and grow durian, but the cruise ship I was on at the time refused me re-boarding with my precious seeds. The security screener said he could smell me coming a mile away. :-\
Of course, the big problem was that I had bought a durian at the farmer's market, then sat down and ate it and saved the seeds.
I had to sanitize my hands four times, up to my elbows, before they'd let me back on board...!
My husband said it was way worse than when I brought the noni fruit on board.
Cheers,
Carolyn
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(https://i.postimg.cc/0zptjGDL/3-DD27007-E64-E-4-FBD-A679-35-EFE3722489.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zptjGDL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WdWvWPfN/47-C23-DB8-879-B-4-AC6-A738-2620-DE5-ECEBF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdWvWPfN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RWrsvp67/AA5530-A3-3719-4305-9914-2-C00301-FF6-F5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWrsvp67)
Update on the large tree I cut down to graft onto. I was advised to leave at least one branch or run the increased risk of the tree dying. I was concerned I may not get any new shoots lower down on the trunk ( I want to start the new tree as low as I can) and so Trina suggested ringbarking the tree around 50% of it’s diameter to stimulate new shoots below the cut.
As you can see it worked well!! … the lower pictures are from a couple of months ago just after I cut it.
We will have a go at cleft grafting onto several
If the new shoots soon
Cheers Jim
That is an interesting technique. Thanks for sharing.
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hows everyones durian travelling along? Last night we had a massive storm come through took down a native tree at my place 30cm diameter, flattened all my paw paw, avacado tree and bent over a few others. It tore the shade cages for my durian apart and unfortunately snapped off part of the top of my Penang 88, it will survive and bounce back but man I was frustrated about it.
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A few of our young fruit trees got a bit roughed up, my last banana with fruit fell over. Spent about an hour cleaning up this afternoon.
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There where strong winds here too but have lots of shelter belts and wind breaks so not affected much even here on the coast.
It's like a forest and not an orchard here, they support each other and special windbreak tree's and palms too. Even 15-20m durian is ok. They survived the last strong cyclone long time ago "Rona" so hopefully they will survive next cyclone, they take a tropical low easy, don't know how we will go in cat 2 atm. Getting some edible vines in so that will help hold things together if correctly managed.
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Cassowary Im the complete opposite to you my property is ex cane field completely cleared and surrounded by nothing but cane fields, i have some protection from the SE due to a creek tree line but these storms that have been belting is from the NW i cop the full force of these being out in the open exposed flats. I remember Rona 1999 that was a high cat 2 low cat 3 winds around 160km/h at low isles from memory (would have been stronger where is crossed at cow bay).
Hopefully as i get more fruit trees established they will provide some wind break for my prized durian but if we get a category 5 all bets are off and unless trellised like salleras farm there is not much hope.
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Why don't you put in heaps of palms and wind break rows? We are close to the ocean so worse then a cane field, we dedicate land to valuable and suitable wind breaks.
I think in the end it is beneficial, reduced soil surface wind induced evaporation, reduced sun burn on some tree's too since the windbreak will shade some (depending on spoacing ofcourse). Lucena have sparse canopy so great to shade some plants.
And if you use fabace they grow fast by themselves without adding nitrates. Lucena, inga, peachpalm, coconuts, go for it. The micobats love the palms as they have nectar all around the year almost and sysygiums too they like to feed on. I'v put in hundreds by direct seeding so their roots are as good as possible.
I assume trellis only works as intended if it's very well managed, the tatura trellis systems I have seen have not been well managed, slack lines and tall tress growing out of the trellis, I doubt the trellis will help if the tree canapoy is much over the trellis. Haven't seen much of fruit forest farms system but heard it worked for some strong winds some years ago and they apperently use the trellis to protect durian from rain.
And for some tree's keeping them at 3m would mean pruning about every 4-5 months. And you gotta twist the branches to the wire or clip it onto there.
I don't know how people can get a net profit long term doing this?! maybe it's due to crazy prices in southern capitals? Not to cheap to put in the trellis and the labour is intensive when I calculate it.
Dabai and Durian just wants to grow up tall, to mention two species that's gonna be a struggle to dwarf on a bean trellis (in plain english) :D
Peace
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Cassowary i wouldn't think palms provide much wind protection Im pretty sure cape trib farm reported that after RONA the palms failed miserably there as a wind break.
The trellis system to me would be a no brainer if one was farming in this area commercially and relying on durian etc to make an income as there is just too much time loss if the trees get knocked down as Peter Salleras has mentioned you cant do business that way. Me being just a backyard grower if my trees all get knocked down sure it would be heart breaking but not the end of the world my trees do not provide income to feed my family. In cyclone LARRY category 4 Peter has said that he lost something like 450 soursop trees and probably even more Durian trees amongst many others about 95% of his trees, 5 years later he had moved to trellis and copped cylcone YASI category 5 directly over the top of his farm and he didnt lose a single tree on trellis.
You are correct though the cost would be huge on the scale that Peter has done, i have been to his farm and he must have thousands of trees (durian and many others) on trellis, they were all maintained at around 4m from what i could see when i was there but yeh that would be a huge amount of labour on that sorta scale.
other big farms (zappalas at bellen den ker) are also moving to trellis, they however are not using the V trellis method peter uses but a normal vertical trellis using concrete posts and wires, they also got near wiped out in cyclone LARRY.
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I am curious to know how durians grow in clay. My property is on the side of a hill, towards the top of the property, it's pretty much just clay. Down the bottom, were the bulk of the fruit trees are we have good deep topsoil. This week, I planted a durian in the transition area. The top foot was nice topsoil but then I hit clay. I know drainage can be an issue with clay but being on the side of a hill, we don't has much of an issue with drainage. I want to plant more in this area since being closer to the house, we can take better care of them. In addition, it'll be easier to scare off the cockatoos :)
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I think it could be ok. I see durians grown in clay here in CR. If the soil is acidic I’d add lime and rock phosphate. We add rock powder to balance the soil out as well. All those amendments can be top dressed.
Peter
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Fruit nerd I’m on heavy flat clay which stays wet at this time of the year constantly. My durian are on mounds and they are doing really well. The rest of my fruit trees are just planted directly into the clay without mounds and are also doing really well.
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Thanks for the information. Sounds like it should do okay then.
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From what I have seen Farm stay is an orchard with no wind break setup, just one row (10 palms maybe) of dwarf coconuts and 20 on the driveway as ornament and not as wind break as spacing if wrong and they are to tall, need new comming.
The report I read, I think it was colin who said he didn't like the mess off the coconuts and the fronds afterwards, but they still stand ( i kown I have seen them) and would have supported the surrounding tree's mechanically and also reduced the wind.
If they are keept well regularly (de fronded de nutted for jelly nuts) prior there won't be such mess with fronds and coconuts. And a wind break is a totally different concept then a row of dwarfs for drinking coconuts.
I know Farm stay is doing very well now with implementing alley cropping, that will help to reduce wind damage some.
The RFA Inc (Rare Fruit Australia) have a good book with good principles for wind breaks and how to manage wind for driveways etc. entering to the "paddock".
I have probobly visited 15 exotic fruit orchards in AU (small to big) and none have dedicated windbreaks implemented, some just have jungle around, that's it.
So in this area in my opinion and experience, proper wind breaks haven't even been tested against cyclonic winds. There's still huge amounts of natural tree's/forests around so nature does seams to be able to stand cat 5 cyclones quite well. I know of a man who survived yasi on a sailing boat tied to the mangrove, the mangrove is still there and he told me the story.
I don't say forests don't get damaged but it's not as bad as orchards and recovery is quite fast too in a natural forest due to self seeding and errosion reduction.
I like what I heard Peter say in one youtube video.
- I do consultations sometime and the workers will say - well we have to use fertilizers beacuase nothing grows good here.
- I turn around and say what about the forest there, how's all that stuff growing?
- ohh that's natural, that's why that's growing there.
- that's right, that's what we are gonna do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8RJcrgmHtM
In my opinioin it would help this area a lot if people looked to nature a bit more :D
Peter S, have named the place Fruit Forest Farm if i am not wrong, but I can't really see the forest, to me it's more like an orchard system. Not hating on what they do or anything like that i respect what they do for what purpouse and they have been helpfull :) . But the name could be misleading to new growers and visitors that associate "that system" with a "forest".
Clay shouldn't be any issue. But I am unsure if you have 100% clay, there is probobly silt and some rocks in there too. Do a soil structure test at home.
A family who have been farming in this area for over 70 years, put down plastic underneath the durian to collect and pool the water bellow the planted tree, according to them it works well, no issue with wet feet and dead tree's. I have had simialr expeience with using flood irrigation, they thrive, but if the soil get's to dry they suffer immedietly.
I guess in 1-2 years the plastic if penetrated by roots and does not hold as well.
And with the tierra preta they used clay pots. That creates small bowls in the soil where water can catch in the soil. I think this is probobly more important then the char they put on. When I was researching this before I came a cross one elder who said the pots in tierra preta are very important.
If I could do the same an come out positive finacially I would do it, at this time i don't know how to manufacture huge amounts of clay pots from my subsoil clay. Maybe a TLUD kiln for char to make the pots, double the goodness.
Peace
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Cassowary I remain doubtful that durians left to grow to their natural size will survive a category 5 system direct hit in any form whether they are surrounded by forest or not unless trellised in some way. Maybe the odd one will survive. Natural forest handles category 5 cyclones because no doubt the natural rainforest trees here have 100x stronger root systems etc that are able to cope with this. Durian are pathetically weak.
Zappalas had 1000 trees before cyclone larry cat 4 and didnt even cop a direct hit they lost 900 trees. I would like to know which variety's (other than macrantha) that survived this as they would be the ones to chase but no doubt this information is not available.
Peters farm at fruit forest farm is surrounded by rainforest something like 160 acres of his property is rainforest but the actually orchard areas are mostly set out in rows on trellis.
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The food forest we are designing have many fruiting vines that tie together the canopy. As a natural trellis, actually it's stronger then 100mm pine poles and 3.2mm ss wire.
"Durian is pathetically weak" That's mainly durian plants that are root bound I would suggest, if one look up some data from a botanical garden in netherland one can see that some tree's never develop proper roots after once being root bound (circled). Thats why I have engineered pots, that allow the tap root to grow straight and root pruning for lateral roots. And in general nothing older then 12 months is planted since they would have reached the bottom of our 400-500mm special pots.
And many farmers use heavy equipment which compacts the soil around the tree and that makes it hard for roots to spread, or the soil was compacted to start with and the tree's didn't manage to anchour into bedrock. That is a major issue. Also graftage and other cloning methods make for less wind resistant tree's.
The tree's roots themselves lock into each other, that's why we are planting them tighter then in a traditional orchard system (no lawn between etc) and with 5 atleast 4 layers (ground, under, canopy, apex vines). In the forest roots cross over each other too.
Tree's also have to be traiend to their natural growth form which is almost always one main trunk with laterals (durian, mangosteen rambutan etc.), Masanobu fukuoka did lots of research into this. Canpopy of fruits that have to be picked like rambutan will be maintained shorter so access to the fruit is still possible.
And some roots will graft together through insoculation.
That's how some natural stands of forest work in high wind areas, and I think maybe some mangrove also do a lot of inoscualtion and creates a wide and strong anchour system.
Also the forest will handle the rain pour better during a cyclone since there'se so much OM etc, so less likely to fall cause soil is slush like is possible in a common orchard up here.
Have never seen zappalas land so can't comment on what system they run exactly but i suspect that there was no extensive wind break system during larry.
I can talk and write about this for hours but I guess the cyclone itself will prove the (towards natural) food forest systems worthy or worthlessnes :D
Hey tropo, one of the graveolens seeds that come from Daintree could be a Suluk type durian since there's lots of zibethinus around that graveolens tree (cross pollination). So if you plant some graveolens seeds you might get something close to a suluk (the hybrid).
Peace
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That’s very interesting Cassowary. What vines are you thinking of introducing into the orchard?
Peter
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willughbeia, elaeagnus, passiflora, uvaria, cassabanana, Borneo grape vine, also epiphytes like monstera and vanilla but vanilla won't be very strong. Also pepper but not to strong unless old, atleast that's my expereince with the native pepper. Trying with pithya too but don't know how that will work out for wind protection, might be to heavy.
Already training them up our wind break plants and other tree's but have to learn how to maintain the vines so that they don't overtake the tree's and make them weak like the native vines do if left to themselves. So gotta learn what vine works best on what tree, weight, vigour, how much it covers the canopy, thick blocking foalge or sparse etc.
Having cassabanana up a mango helped to get a bit more fruit this year, idk maybe it protected some flowers from rain. Or maybe it didn't do anything, hard to quantify but I expect there to be some unforeseen benefits. However I expect some tree's to fruit less then optimal since sun is reduced and maybe some vines will interfere with picking of the fruit. But if they can survive even a cat 2-3 cylone i think long term yeilds, like 30 year would beat the un-supported fallen tree with no windbreaks. And total possible yearly yeild for my given area for any crop is lower since space is decdicated to special wind reducing plants. In our dabai area the number of dabais are lower then what malaysian ag department recommends since windbreak tree's will take space.
Some tree's are almost vines in habit, like all my Artocarpus limpiato grows sideways. Probobly to get more sun but durian, mangosteen etc don't grow like this here. And some native tree's grow like this to, almost like a tree vine.
If you have more edible vines to add, please :)
Peace,
cassowary
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Interesting ideas.
I don’t have the experience you have with cyclones, we’ve never had one where I am. But I did experience a category 5 in Fiji long ago. It was interesting how different trees responded. The mangoes I saw did well by letting their foliage and branches blow away while other trees tried to hold on but we’re completely blown over.
Which brings me to a point. With more foliage in the tree it would seem like it would make it harder for the tree to resist being blown over.
How about pandanus as a windbreak?
Another vine could be plukentia.
Suerte
Peter
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Yeah you brought up a good point there, many huge mangoes still standing here too :D
Your right, the vines will make it heavier and likely increase the wind resistance so could make it fall over, probobly will try and keep the vines pruned so they don't get to big. Lucena and other fabeaceace could be good candidates since their leafs are small and canopy usually sparse. I have coconuts in the windbreak to as they are deep roted and hopefully will act as anchours to hold the windbreak up.
Have some pandanus but don't like the spikes on the fronds, hard to manage. There is a smaller one with decent fruit that was here when we came, grows to about 4 m so could be good for the low portion if one can handle the spikes.
Oh yeah plukentia, maybe if I can get some seeds some day.
Peace
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The pandanus I am thinking of, utilus I believe, has smooth leaf edges and an edible fruit.
I’m not really into sending seeds but I could send some plukentia.
Peter
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Thanks for the pandanus tips, will see if I can find some, it's from madagaskar so probobly won't be wild on the beach like the other pandanus sp.
I found a man in a local rare fruit magazine growing Plukentia so I can most likely get seeds locally Peter, thanks for wanting to help out, won't forget it :D
Peace
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Probably my last durian of the season here. Was lucky enough to buy this one last week. Quite different from other durians that I have had in that each segment only one large, flat seed. Any ideas on the variety/genetics?
(https://i.postimg.cc/vDzZk039/large-seed.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vDzZk039)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fJRRNYrP/one-seed-segment.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fJRRNYrP)
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Spent $50 on a 4lb musang king yesterday. Very bitter and strong tasting. Worth it
(https://i.postimg.cc/2LmQbTVQ/53-D6-FF74-82-FA-4-CFD-AE8-D-42-FCE68108-F9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2LmQbTVQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RJRccfHj/9-E5-FFCF3-E199-4-E03-97-F1-2-B79288-E96-A0.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RJRccfHj)
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Durian season just started for us on the southern Caribbean coast of Costa Rica. Actually, at the same time the durians are falling there are lots of flowers on the same trees. So we should have another harvest in July or so.
On my own farm I don’t have that many durians at the moment so I have been buying some durians from another farm to eat more and different durians as well as get lots of seeds for rootstock. I’d like to get about 200 planted right now.
The going price for random durians that are pretty good is $6 kg.
I tried to load some photos but the program didn’t like them!!?!
Peter
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Hey Peter or Oskar or anyone who has multiple durian trees can you please help me out. I want to plant a good few number of durian which will be upwind of my house the closest trees would be approx 25m or 80ft from house. My wife is not at all impressed as she cant stand the smell of durian and she is currently standing in the way of my plans.
Can you guys confirm how far downwind can you smell durian when they are on the trees near ripeness out in open air? Is she likely be able to smell them when we are sitting on the patio 80ft downwind from the trees?
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I don’t think there is any smell until they fall on the ground. At that point the smell could reach 80’ down wind.
Peter
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I don’t think there is any smell until they fall on the ground. At that point the smell could reach 80’ down wind.
Peter
Thanks peter i will put an argument forward based on your recommendation.
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On the bottom of our property, we can sometimes smell durian from our neighbors orchard. The smell is not very strong and they have large number of trees. I guess another thing to factor in is the direction of the prevailing winds.
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ive noticed there are 3 scents that come from the tree. there seems to be a pre flowering scent that smells like farts, it seems to come from the leaves? there is the flower scent that smells somewhat like rubber. and then there is the fruit scent once it drops. a woman i work for has a huge druian tree at least 100 feet tall by 100 feet wide. its right on the other side of her driveway, but it is about 30 feet below the driveway with a large rock wall/barrier. you cannot really smell the duirans until you head down the path to the tree. but from down there the scent would go 80 feet easily. maybe have some sort of vegetated berm or barricade from the house so the sent wont waft that hard? our closest trees will probably be that same distance. but were not concerned about the scent. you could also plant a bunch of gardenias or something around the house to mask the scent. we want to do that along the roadside to prevent fruit theft. not sure how well that will work though
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Yeah definetly flowers smell strong, but not a intense as the fruits, it's a lovely robust smell. Reminds me a little bit of A*Men by thierry mugler.
You have to put your nose to a amlost ripe fruit on the tree in order to smell it really.
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How are people's durians going in FNQ? Probably got down to 8-9C here this morning, 4.7C in Innisfail (annual record by the way). All my durians are looking great but looks like another very cold night on the way.
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Hey Peter or Oskar or anyone who has multiple durian trees can you please help me out. I want to plant a good few number of durian which will be upwind of my house the closest trees would be approx 25m or 80ft from house. My wife is not at all impressed as she cant stand the smell of durian and she is currently standing in the way of my plans.
Can you guys confirm how far downwind can you smell durian when they are on the trees near ripeness out in open air? Is she likely be able to smell them when we are sitting on the patio 80ft downwind from the trees?
Trade her in. (I’m kidding)
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Future yes she has tried durian once or twice im hoping one day she comes around too it but it isnt something that is instantly attractive for most people like mangosteen.
Yes we had some record breaking temperatures at my place at least as long as i can remember, 8.9C yesterday morning and a bone chilling 8.4C this morning for a new record. I will be watching the durian closely over the next few weeks to see if they start to defoliate . From everything i have seen some will start to defoliate at temps below 11C, however the tough varieties like red prawn should show no leaf loss even down to just below 5C.
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Haven't gone bellow 15C here and they are still flushing, no worries :D
Were down futher south two weeks ago and it was like a lot colder down there, tully etc. idk what it is that make's it so, but cairns is also quite a lot colder then here, maybe the rainforest buffers the cold winds idk...
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Cassowary it’s certainly the rainforest and your proximity to the coast keeping it warmer.
I’m not far south of you yet I’m in a valley surrounded by cane fields and it gets down to temps similar to Tully etc here. One of my seedling durian has dropped a bunch of leaves from this cold snap and another seedling looks like it will as well. They did not have shade covers on them. My grafted trees with shade covers seem to be holding up well so far. I think the shade cage might have held the temperature in a bit better or something. Certainly 8.4c is too cold for them.
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Interesting. All my durians are still looking good. I have had a seedling in the ground almost a year which has no protection, no signs that it will drop any leaves. Had a chempedak die after the wet period ended a couple weeks ago but I believe that they do that sometimes.
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Some interesting notes from my recent trip to Penang. Some, definitely not all, serious durian farmers claim to remove flowers for the first 20 years after they begin. 6-8 years to flower means 26-28 to fruit. I imagine this is for grafted varieties only as you’d probably want to evaluate a seedlings potential. Nonetheless, their reasoning is trees don’t produce quality level needed for sale until that time and they don’t want wasted energy on fruiting.
That’s commitment.
Second thing was slopes vs. flat land. Most say Durian does better on slopes. I’m not so sure. It might be the Durian in Penang were planted to stop landslides and everyone is used to that. The oldest trees I saw, one 200 year old and the other a stunning 300 year old were on flat land. Anecdotal but nonetheless....
Third thing, the most common cause of death I heard for and established tree: lightning.
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Imagine paying to have a crew knock all the flowers off for 20 years and then… the tree gets hit by lightning!
I can imagine those durian farmers in Bulik Palau having a good laugh about that.
Probably the first durians planted on Penang we’re planted on the flat land where it was easiest. There’s plenty to see there though there’s more rice than durian on the flat for sure.
There’s lots of reasons for planting durian on a slope.
They tolerate it well.
There may be less risk of root fungi which is a problem with durian.
The fallen fruits can be collected at a fence line below the trees, out of the impact zone!
Peter
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Fruit nerd your property is on a bit of a hill cold air generally settles on the lowest places in cold clear nights like we had my place is low. I dare say it would not have got down to 8.4C where your durian are. I know In Mossman It only got down to 10.5. My area had the lowest temps in our shire. Innisfail district however saw lower temps again.
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Some interesting notes from my recent trip to Penang. Some, definitely not all, serious durian farmers claim to remove flowers for the first 20 years after they begin. 6-8 years to flower means 26-28 to fruit. I imagine this is for grafted varieties only as you’d probably want to evaluate a seedlings potential. Nonetheless, their reasoning is trees don’t produce quality level needed for sale until that time and they don’t want wasted energy on fruiting.
That’s commitment.
Second thing was slopes vs. flat land. Most say Durian does better on slopes. I’m not so sure. It might be the Durian in Penang were planted to stop landslides and everyone is used to that. The oldest trees I saw, one 200 year old and the other a stunning 300 year old were on flat land. Anecdotal but nonetheless....
Third thing, the most common cause of death I heard for and established tree: lightning.
Lightning is indeed big problem at my place. I lost 2 coconut trees and one very tall, old jackfruit tree to lightning since looking after property.
The oldest durian trees I have seen were in this botanical garden, almost on a flat land, not textbook flat. Planted in 19th century. Old seedling durian trees are majestic, absolutely beautiful sight. Grafted "Christmas trees" not so much.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5jhhhdqt/Untitled.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5jhhhdqt)
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Fruit nerd your property is on a bit of a hill cold air generally settles on the lowest places in cold clear nights like we had my place is low. I dare say it would not have got down to 8.4C where your durian are. I know In Mossman It only got down to 10.5. My area had the lowest temps in our shire. Innisfail district however saw lower temps again.
Certainly makes sense. I would like to get a weather station and start recording data. For what it's worth, my first seedling durian dropped a lot of leaves shortly after I planted it due to sun/heat/lack of protection. Took a long time to recover (grass hoppers didn't help) but it's looking very healthy now. I guess your trees will recover quickly with a bit of care.
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Imagine paying to have a crew knock all the flowers off for 20 years and then… the tree gets hit by lightning!
I can imagine those durian farmers in Bulik Palau having a good laugh about that.
Probably the first durians planted on Penang we’re planted on the flat land where it was easiest. There’s plenty to see there though there’s more rice than durian on the flat for sure.
There’s lots of reasons for planting durian on a slope.
They tolerate it well.
There may be less risk of root fungi which is a problem with durian.
The fallen fruits can be collected at a fence line below the trees, out of the impact zone!
Peter
You’re right there. It’s seems it’s the really old tall trees getting hit. All the slopes I saw were “messy” - (no knock to the owners. Having managed less than an acre for years, it can get messy. 20 acres? a much bigger management issue.). I would guess 30% of durian go missing. Nets over pathways is a good idea but also seems intensive to harvest from. Strings used to hold fallen durian off the ground was eye opening. I did not get to see workers climb these trees, never mind aging up a fruit at that height. It it seems like quite a feat!
With such a long runway to take off durian trials take an exceptional strategic outlook but at least then literature indicates wild durian rootstock used on the flat areas, Durio zibethinus on the slopes b
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Some interesting notes from my recent trip to Penang. Some, definitely not all, serious durian farmers claim to remove flowers for the first 20 years after they begin. 6-8 years to flower means 26-28 to fruit. I imagine this is for grafted varieties only as you’d probably want to evaluate a seedlings potential. Nonetheless, their reasoning is trees don’t produce quality level needed for sale until that time and they don’t want wasted energy on fruiting.
That’s commitment.
Second thing was slopes vs. flat land. Most say Durian does better on slopes. I’m not so sure. It might be the Durian in Penang were planted to stop landslides and everyone is used to that. The oldest trees I saw, one 200 year old and the other a stunning 300 year old were on flat land. Anecdotal but nonetheless....
Third thing, the most common cause of death I heard for and established tree: lightning.
Lightning is indeed big problem at my place. I lost 2 coconut trees and one very tall, old jackfruit tree to lightning since looking after property.
The oldest durian trees I have seen were in this botanical garden, almost on a flat land, not textbook flat. Planted in 19th century. Old seedling durian trees are majestic, absolutely beautiful sight. Grafted "Christmas trees" not so much.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5jhhhdqt/Untitled.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5jhhhdqt)
There is at least one Durian tree in Penang with a lightning rod!
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Interesting. All my durians are still looking good. I have had a seedling in the ground almost a year which has no protection, no signs that it will drop any leaves. Had a chempedak die after the wet period ended a couple weeks ago but I believe that they do that sometimes.
Yeah and that happen more frequently from some cempadak varieties I and one friend have noted, they just die no matter who cares for them or what is done (me and two others). There is one tree in Whyanbeel valley that is especially known for this.
That is probobly one of the reasons there is so little cempedak compared to jackfruit in AU. Idk if this is the case in other areas like Indonesia for example.
Regarding phytophra root rot and flat vs sloping land:
It is more likely root rot is the cause of death in a grafted tree then in a seedling tree (zygote) from my experience. I haven't seen any scientific evaluations on this but that is probobly becuase seedlings is not an option by default for comercial companies, so no funding goes there unfortunetly. If anyone can find or know of some evidence that would be great :D
I haven't seen any signs of root rot here in d. zib. even though most durians have 24/7 dripp irrigation on for most of the year, even in rainy season sometimes when it's really wet. And I haven't been able to get a native soil sample from Borneo innoculated so similar microbiome to neighbours. But neighbours have problems with root rot and most of their plants (about 70%) are grafted. We only have one grafted as a novelty. In my opinion it is better to grow seedlings and focus resources on the ones that come out well eventually then to to have grafted tree's with expected economic life of aprox 30 years, that is what I can see here, after 20-30 years they decline rapidly, some just start showing signs of dying and then borers come in and finish it of, some damage the healthy tissue even and some eat the dead tissue from necrossis after the fungal infection.
I still haven't seen any borer damage on living durian seedling tissue.
Seedling tree's in the wild are more likely to die of trauma (other trees falling on them, lightning etc.). So i think it is the human cultivation that is causing the root rot issue. I would like to know if Durian have a DNA set that determines a time when it self dies or if they can live indefinetly without trauma.
Similar for grafted jackfruit, neigbours have a high presence of pinks disease (fungus) but I have never seen it here. And they spray with the bordeaux mix.
Durianloer:
"Old seedling durian trees are majestic, absolutely beautiful sight. Grafted "Christmas trees" not so much."
So true bro!
Peter:
"There’s lots of reasons for planting durian on a slope."
Yeah I agree, like if you have the right facing slope you could harvest lot's of sun in winter months.
And if you got a "pass" then you could create a moist microclimate. (Pass is kinda beween to peaks still sloping).
N and S face have different environments, it's clear here. And passes are the most lush and "Borneo" like here since it's so moist.
"There’s plenty to see there though there’s more rice than durian on the flat for sure."
Yeah and i think it is unfortunetly people value rice over durian so it get's the sencond fertile land.
fruit nerd:
If you don't provide some shade for young durian in Australia during mid summer you will not give the young durian the ability to photosynthesis at highest level, it will be reduced. there is lot's of info on this in a normal botany book. Even on overcast summer days there is enough light for optimal photosyn. according to the botany book i got. I can also see this in the field how their leavs drop angle to more vertical to reduce the amount of sun emitting on the leaf. And young durians don't have compact dense canopies yet so it won't hurt the lover branches and inside leafs with some shade. When mature it' a different story. And also consider that a leaf filters sun different from plastic shade cloth, eg. it let's through wavelenghts other then blue cause that is captured by the leaf if I am not wrong and red and green goes through mostly and will hit leafs bellow.
https://www.amazon.com/Botany-Introduction-James-D-Mauseth/dp/1284157350/ref=sr_1_11?keywords=botany&qid=1658517249&s=books&sr=1-11
I have thought about creating a trichome mimicking spray that will act as a sun lumens reductant. Many plants use trichomes to protect against the sun.
To use silica or calcium carbonate spray. Also wax could be used. I know there are some products available but haven't tried any of em and don't know what they are based on.
The coolest would be to actually create a trichome mimicking spray that enhances foliar nutrient assimilation.
from the jungle,
cassowary
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Absolutely. I have learnt my lesson now. All the durians I have planted recently have cloth for sun protection. Definitely makes a big difference. Another interesting thing, when a young durian tree is getting too much sun, the leaves will also be a lot smaller. Regarding the unprotected tree I have, it probably was around two years old when I planted it and it has been in the ground for about a year. Still quite young obviously but I feel like it doesn't quite need so much protection now. It may well be that it is winter now and it might begin to suffer again in spring. If that is the case, I will probably do something to give it some protection from the afternoon sun.
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Cassowary, we plant both grafted and seedling durian trees. The thing about the seedling trees is that not all those trees will produce good quality fruit. About 35 years ago hundreds of seedling durian trees were distributed by an NGO to farmers in my county. Some of those old trees produce decent fruit but a large portion have inferior quality.
I realize that planting seedlings is the only way to get better material and so we plant lots of them. But for somebody that is only going to plant a couple I recommend grafted in most cases and, in general, a mix of seedlings and grafted.
I have not seen any root rot here in durian. We see it in avocado frequently. I noticed that in Malaysia they use a commercial compost that doesn’t have any manure since they figure that can lead to root rot. Our farm is organic so we rely on manure for nitrogen. We apply microorganisms every 2 weeks unless it is dry.
We stake the planting sites of new durian trees with glyrcydium posts that are actually kind of close, say, 50-60cm from the tree. These nitrogen fixers quickly make a shade that we adjust by pruning and use as a chop and drop.
Peter
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Cassowary- that’s quite an info download. Thank you.
Peter - what is “glyrcydium posts”? A nitrogen fixing plant?
One idea I’m pondering is applying the same concept used with mangoes to speed up seedling selection - grafting seedling scions onto a mature tree branch to force flowers earlier. With durian having such a long period until hitting its peak flavor, even that would be a slow process.
Is anyone also growing lowianus? Graveolens?
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliricidia_sepium
It’s often planted alongside fruit trees in a permaculture type of setting as a chop and drop/ mulch plant. It can be used as a post for growing dragonfruit , pepper, vanilla etc.
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Here’s a champedek being partially shaded by gliricidia. The page wouldn’t load another photo I have of a young durian with a post on either side more effectively shading the delicate tree. These living posts are used very commonly for fences in CR. They are very useful and many farms make good use of them. I also use them to shade cacao. In southern Mexico they’re called madre cacao.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y3kb9wXk/F730905-A-5-AD1-495-B-9803-42-B3-F6-AD9136.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3kb9wXk)
In our area we are getting some very good quality fruit of of durian trees that are only 8 years old. We’ve had the fruits in Asia, even from 100 year old trees. Personally, I think there is some degree of hype about old trees. The thing about a place like Penang is that there is such a durian culture and SO many different select durians. We can’t do that any time soon but I don’t believe you can’t get very good durian off of young trees. I would like to see a blind taste test!
Peter
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Here’s a champedek being partially shaded by gliricidia. The page wouldn’t load another photo I have of a young durian with a post on either side more effectively shading the delicate tree. These living posts are used very commonly for fences in CR. They are very useful and many farms make good use of them. I also use them to shade cacao. In southern Mexico they’re called madre cacao.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y3kb9wXk/F730905-A-5-AD1-495-B-9803-42-B3-F6-AD9136.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3kb9wXk)
In our area we are getting some very good quality fruit of of durian trees that are only 8 years old. We’ve had the fruits in Asia, even from 100 year old trees. Personally, I think there is some degree of hype about old trees. The thing about a place like Penang is that there is such a durian culture and SO many different select durians. We can’t do that any time soon but I don’t believe you can’t get very good durian off of young trees. I would like to see a blind taste test!
Peter
Thank you. I’ll study this chop and drop nitrogen fixer some more. I also agree hype is probable in Penang. Whether it’s quality taking decades or planting on slopes or 3 named varieties selling at 3x the price of everything else, I wouldn’t take any of it as iron clad.
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Looks great Peter. I use Inga and acacia the same way as you with the gliricidia. Our site is a bit too wet for them gliricidia. Seems only 15% of the cuttings take, and I've had some of my larger 2 year old cuttings fall over in a small wind storm. But we do have a few doing really well. Anyway I plant out my trees every 5' and then put my desirable cropping trees in the middle of them. Yay plant friends and easy biomass
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I had a couple of veterans who have been growing durian here for more than 40 years and have been to all the durian hotspots around the world tell me that a humble gan yao fresh fallen off the tree is as good as any of these big name varieties coming out of Malaysia.
I haven't been to Malaysia myself and tasted the big names myself but thought i would share what i was told.
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I had a couple of veterans who have been growing durian here for more than 40 years and have been to all the durian hotspots around the world tell me that a humble gan yao fresh fallen off the tree is as good as any of these big name varieties coming out of Malaysia.
I haven't been to Malaysia myself and tasted the big names myself but thought i would share what i was told.
I met one such veteran last month. He was one of two people with permission to collect material from some esoteric Malaysian locations and successful brought Durian to Aussie land 40 years ago. He was cycling through Malaysia and stopped in a the farm @DurianWriter ‘s tour used as basecamp.
Ived had neighborhood Durian as good as any but it’s a dice roll.
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Another interesting thing, when a young durian tree is getting too much sun, the leaves will also be a lot smaller.
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Have seen that too.
And I have planted graveolens, red and yellow. had one lowianus but died cause was already weak :( also got acutifolia, thanks to maryoto, what a brother!
"We stake the planting sites of new durian trees with glyrcydium posts that are actually kind of close, say, 50-60cm from the tree. These nitrogen fixers quickly make a shade that we adjust by pruning and use as a chop and drop. "
I wish I had gliricidia sepium! Bought half a kilo of seeds and none came up, sowed in all different ways and spots! have looked everywhere i can for seeds in Australia but it scares! I am almost giving up! But I actually found out that poinciana does take quite well from a cutting in the field if it's moist.
Yeah for sure there is probably some hype and some truth about old tree's fruit flavor but I have also experienced that fruit vary from year to year so hard to tell really. It's the most complicated fruit for sure.
Spenc, haven't tried inga field cuttings yet, might have to try that out! thanks for sharing
Gone tropo, can tell you from my experience that a proper ripe Thailand grown Kan yao is amazing!!! I still prefer some very bitter and small seedling varieties that I got to taste in South Thailand. Just durian baan.
Future,
I wounder how long it would take to have the graft fruit on the host durian? And it probably have to be grafted quite close to the trunk as durian is cauliflorous, mango's fruit is borne on the en of branches (terminal) so it would be easy there, just graft at the end of any branch. Have anyone tested this field graft method for durian to potentially be able to evaluate seedlings faster??!
Wish ya all odorous durian sessions!
from the jungle
cassowary
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Ingas do grow from cuttings. But they grow just as fast, with a better root system via seed. Also seems like a poor take rate for cuttings
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Another interesting thing, when a young durian tree is getting too much sun, the leaves will also be a lot smaller.
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Future,
I wounder how long it would take to have the graft fruit on the host durian? And it probably have to be grafted quite close to the trunk as durian is cauliflorous, mango's fruit is borne on the en of branches (terminal) so it would be easy there, just graft at the end of any branch. Have anyone tested this field graft method for durian to potentially be able to evaluate seedlings faster??!
Wish ya all odorous durian sessions!
from the jungle
cassowary
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I have not come across anyone doing this on Durian yet. But if not, it’s time to get started. 🧐
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I am so ignorant to grafting so I don't think I will be pioneering this method haha.
Future, if you try please lettuce know :D
Thanks for the encouragement on inga, will do a trial this week when they get a "chop and drop" without drop haha!
Have anyone noticed any difference in response for Durio zibethinus with a companion plant? Like Inga sp, gliricida sp, Fabace sp. etc.
I know Douglas Fir does well with alder as the alder shares it's fixed N with the DF and the DF shares something else back. Through mychorizea.
I read about the DF and Alder in Suzan Simmards book, "Finding the mother tree" and immedietly started to question what tree's grow naturally among druians and would any of them connect to the same MR (mychorizea) and share nutrients.
I want to do a field experiment but it's very hard to get enough keranji and petai seeds.
Anyone who want's to sell or barter them please PM :D
It seams like Dialium indum Keranji, Parkia speciosa Petai appear in the same forest as most Durio sp. "Mixed Lowland dipterocarp and Riverine Forest"
According to Anthony lamb in "A guide to wild fruits of Borneo"
Both of those are in the Fabaceae family.
I have a feeling that there is an amazing amount of knowlage that can increase yeilds and long term sustainablity of our relation to Durian, we just haven't conucted enough experiments or observed well enough. This goes beyond providng fallen leafs and swigs for N incorporation into the soil by decay, it's a intentional funneling of N from one tree to another.
Both inga and gliricida are not from the same botanical original area as Durio so I don't know if they would be able to attach to the same mychorizea. I have never seen any mychorizea on durian roots so they might be in symbiosis with arbuscular mycho where I live or there's an absent of the correct spores??.
Anyone seen any ectomycorrhizal fungi on durian roots?
Have a 2000x microscope on order so will see if I can disect and find the AM. I know there is one research paper on the topic:
https://ejournal.forda-mof.org/ejournal-litbang/index.php/JPTH/article/view/5506
I think pinto peanut and those ground cover's are good for the early years of esablishment but for maximum yields and growth there should probobly be a tree companion.
Durio Kutjensis is calssified as a understory tree at max 20/25m but D. zib and D. graveolens are classified as main canopy tree's on the richer clay soils reaching 40/50m in height accoriding to A lamb.
A condition with a symbiotic tree would probobly create the best possibilities for hight fruit quality and regular bearing, eliminating farm inputs on some soils and just the need to protect from mammals and birds.
Peter, have you seen a decline in tree growth in any tree when you chopped a gliricida close by etc??
Maybe that reduced the total N uptaken by the main crop tree.?
sorry for the spelling errors.
Peas,
cassowary
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Somewhat unrelated but I planted a pigeon pea between a jackfruit and chempedak. Interesting, the grass around the pigeon pea went yellow for a while, almost like herbicide had been sprayed around the plant (though the grass didn't die and did green up again). With pigeon pea being a N fixer, I was confused by the negative effect it had on the grass. Not sure if the rapid growth briefly depleted nutrients. If that is the case, could it be detrimental to plant something like a pigeon pea next to a young tree (such as a durian, to bring myself back on topic, ha).
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The idea of companion trees is interesting. There are a couple of important crops grown seriously in CR that obviously do better with companion trees. Coffee is generally grown with erithyrna. Cacao is grown with lots of different shade trees. Originally they just used forest trees but now it’s common to see inga and other nitrogen fixers. In southern mexico the common name for gliricida is madre cacao.
But both cacao and coffee benefit from some shade through their whole lives where it seems that durian is a canopy tree or even emergent forest tree that, once mature, craves direct sun.
So in my groves the very young durian trees are dominated by the gliricidia within a short time the durian will dominate the site. Perhaps within 3-5 years the original gliricidia will have disappeared. But there are others around and there is lots of native forest on my farm in corridors. The forest supports the living soil but also brings the risk of large trees falling into the cultivated area. If they fall cleanly then it’s a gift. If not, it’s a costly trade off. But the trees grow well.
Peter
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Hi all
Wonder f any of you can tell me what is going on with the latest flush on my sunan durian. Seem to have a lot of die off - tree seems otherwise healthy and the 2 trees next to it are fine
(https://i.postimg.cc/F7fmSFjH/7529-F526-486-A-4721-AC13-30819-C8285-B5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7fmSFjH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N9pY65J5/EBA7-AD2-A-0379-42-EB-95-A6-99-AFCC31450-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9pY65J5)
Is it a nutrient deficiency ??
Cheers
Jim
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Totally unrelated but how did you get your hands on a Sunan durian? Still have hopes of getting a trellis system setup with a bunch of clones. Hard to get known varieties. I currently have 4 clones and bunch of seedlings. Would like to get that to around 20 varieties but that might take a long time, ha.
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Hey mate
I got mine from Trina but I don’t think they do them anymore. There are a couple of folk up in Bloomfield who have trees and sell grafts sometime. They also have a few other varieties.
Drop me a pm to remind me and I will ask. I’m getting a D190 and a Hew 7 from them too.
I’ll be having an amateur go at grafting mine soon - might be lucky
Cheers Jim
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Hi all
Wonder f any of you can tell me what is going on with the latest flush on my sunan durian. Seem to have a lot of die off - tree seems otherwise healthy and the 2 trees next to it are fine
(https://i.postimg.cc/F7fmSFjH/7529-F526-486-A-4721-AC13-30819-C8285-B5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7fmSFjH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N9pY65J5/EBA7-AD2-A-0379-42-EB-95-A6-99-AFCC31450-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9pY65J5)
Is it a nutrient deficiency ??
Cheers
Jim
Jim i havent seen anything like that on my trees looks a little concerning to me, i doubt its a nutrient deficiency would normally show up as some type of yellowing in the leaves for most nutrients if lacking. Hopefully its not some sort of disease ?
Im currently dealing with some sort of trunk borers that bore pretty serious holes into the trunk of my P88 not sure what creature is doing it but very frustrating.
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We get stem borers. They are the larvae of a weevel or beetle.
Peter
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We get stem borers. They are the larvae of a weevel or beetle.
Peter
Peter is there any way to stop them? i have searched the trees but cant find anything, just seems you wake up and there are holes in your tree? I have lorzban i can spray not sure if that works but its very toxic stuff
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My nextdoor neighour and I have both lost citrus trees in the last year due to borers. How old is the P88? I'm hopeful that my P88 will be the first to fruit since it is growing very rigorously.
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My nextdoor neighour and I have both lost citrus trees in the last year due to borers. How old is the P88? I'm hopeful that my P88 will be the first to fruit since it is growing very rigorously.
Damn I might have to research this a bit more, interestingly they only attack the P88 and it is my biggest and healthiest tree, its been in the ground since july last year.
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What we have here may be quite different but what happens is that tiny eggs are layer, usually on the foliage. A very small larvae then starts boring, growing quickly as it advances. Generally, we spot this activity, cut the affected part away and the tree recovers.
A poison would have to be systemic and routinely applied during the season. Maybe something like bacculis thurgensis could work.
Peter
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Thanks Peter, sorry i didnt mean to take over from Jim reeves issue with the dying foilage on new shoots? Anyone else have any comments on that maybe Peter has seen this ?
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Hi all
Wonder f any of you can tell me what is going on with the latest flush on my sunan durian. Seem to have a lot of die off - tree seems otherwise healthy and the 2 trees next to it are fine
(https://i.postimg.cc/F7fmSFjH/7529-F526-486-A-4721-AC13-30819-C8285-B5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7fmSFjH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N9pY65J5/EBA7-AD2-A-0379-42-EB-95-A6-99-AFCC31450-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9pY65J5)
Is it a nutrient deficiency ??
Cheers
Jim
I am not surprised to see you post this in October during dry weather as to me it looks like damage from a herbivore.
From my research herbivores like drier tissue, "highly hydrated"/"wet" tissue makes digestion harder and also dilutes the solids they require. When I take brix levels thought out the year of leaves I can see the difference in how many leaves I have to add to the garlic press to get sap out. IMO the leaf's looks a bit shrunken, idk if only more water will help, maybe more OM and water?
IME Durian leaves in Optimal health should have an almost oily shimmer and feel to them, be quite long and wide and also have very low visibility of veins (not to yellow) and be quite thick not to papery. I don't know if this is possible in an orchard spacing sun intensity system though. Some secondary plant metabolites seams to be reduced in those kind of growing environments, eg. amino acids, fatty acids. I know people hate to hear that since it's very simple to setup and manage.
IMO Durio zibethinus does not benefit from intense sun in it's juvenile and intermediate phase. I am trying to study it's Ontogeny.
By the time the tissue reaches to the canopy top the age of the tissue or the ontogenetic phase will be mature and thus ready for FULL SUN (aprox max 12H a day for equatorial). And the root system would be huge by then and able to sustain sap during intense sun.
I think Ontogeny is also the reason why horticulturalist Dr. Richard Campbell climbed to the top of a huge Mangifera Caesia to get his graft wood, highest possible ontogenic phase, in the Fruit hunters documentary.
Why do old durian tree's produce smaller fruits? Why do flavor and texture change with age? Maybe when we have cut down all the old growth durian tree's for mono musang king grids we will realize the loss. A friend of mine thinks Musang king is very inferior to many wild old growth durio zibethinus fruits. And Mon thong is pig food compared IMO. Pigs gotta eat well too!
Have a look at the native Borneo pig.
You can try a foliar spray of fulvic acid, it's meant it temporarily increase the brix level in the leaf/tissue and make the leaf and tissue less desirable to herbivores. Haven't got the data for that yet, just trying to get a good base of control samples now.
If you also have steam borers I would say the tree is on it's way out, IME borers come in at a late state of decline in health.
You could try and cover the stem with a film or put a contact pesticide inside the hole and seal with a plug.
But IMO if the underlying cause isn't corrected you will be in for a lot of intervention, if it's not already to late.
Borers are one of the reason I don't cultivate durian clones.
The borer infection rate have been different when I have compared farms with seedling tree's vs vegetive clones, higher borer infection in clones with a graft junction. Haven't seen a mature durian cutting or marcott so can't comment on that.
I know none want to hear it... But to me it's so self evident and probably reflect the current high durian price and low availability in Australia. And to use systemic pesticides is inhumane IMO since it also enters the fruit which unknowing customers eat. "Systemic" Relating to or affecting the entire body or an entire organism.
And this Malaysian farmer is rejecting clones for seed grown tree's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40k2nP0xkRs
Bayer are always a step ahead of researchers looking into toxicology of their products, but eventually some syn. chemicals are taken of the market but it's ok for Bayer cause they got 10-20 years of sales. And the cycle continues.
Does anyone else have Heavy Clay Soil with low CEC? If so what did you do to correct it? OM? Ca? Organic acids/chelators?
One part of our forest have Heavy clay with CEC 5.6 which could be due to the age of the clay particles here cause usually Heavy clay will have higher CEC from what I have been told.
Here's the soil sample if anyone is interested:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1f6M4rK1/cassowary-soil-analysis-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1f6M4rK1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pmJZJV70/cassowary-soil-analysis-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pmJZJV70)
That is from a spot on the land that have not been cultivated. Only by Cassowaries ;)
Peace
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My durian seedling that previously seemed quite healthy has been slowly declining since this summer, and is constantly under attack from spider mites. I decided to let it sink or swim... I planted it into the ground in my greenhouse. This will accelerate either its recovery or demise.
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My durian seedling that previously seemed quite healthy has been slowly declining since this summer, and is constantly under attack from spider mites. I decided to let it sink or swim... I planted it into the ground in my greenhouse. This will accelerate either its recovery or demise.
I don't see a reason why the durian wouldn't survive in your greenhouse, and with proper pruning even fruit eventually.
Spider mites, maybe a foliar application of trace elements will help increase the leaf brix and reduce the mites. Idk what your soil ph is, but beyond 7 isn't to good for durio zibethinus and some topicals from that area, Bill Whitman have some good stuff about that in his book 40 years of rare fruit.
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Cassowary thats some interesting reading there and I think a lot of truth in what you are saying. Im also planting out seedlings as well as I believe like you say they are more hardy.
The only thing i would comment on is that when you say borers normally attack a tree on its way out, this is my biggest most healthiest vigorous tree that they attack they tree is certainly in good health. they also attacked it last year and the tree has mostly healed over those deep scars from the borers and continued growing. Im confident that this borer attack wont damage the tree too much if its the same thing that happened last year.
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I don't see a reason why the durian wouldn't survive in your greenhouse, and with proper pruning even fruit eventually.
Spider mites, maybe a foliar application of trace elements will help increase the leaf brix and reduce the mites. Idk what your soil ph is, but beyond 7 isn't to good for durio zibethinus and some topicals from that area, Bill Whitman have some good stuff about that in his book 40 years of rare fruit.
Not sure, I believe I have fertilized it appropriately and added garden sulfur to lower ph. Perhaps it is getting too much water, I'm not sure what else it could be. If it dies, I'll try again next year and try different soil mix, fertilizer, additives, watering...
I don't even like durian so this is just for the challenge of exotics :)
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gone tropo, I observed one of our "healthiest" Rollina getting hammered by borers in the dry season, which I assume is due to the dryness of the soil, so during those months I assume the health of the tree went down considerably, maybe your durian had some form of sudden environmental stress? And then just healed up once it got corrected.
I am not to good with identifying insects but I know some borers come in when the tree have living cambium and some when there is patches of dead cambium and that's where they bore. The ones that go through living cambium is probably very hard to stop, they do it to strong endemic plants here even.
At one durian farm it looked like the borers where killing his trees but on close examination I could see the wood where they where boring where already dead, so the tissue died before the borers came in this case cause they had not bored where the cambium where living still. These where approx. 30 years young mon thong graft clones, so they where coming to the end of their economic life. Another farm I went to at approx. 40 years had low health in their mon thong trees so it seams that is cut off life time. While seedlings on both farms looked healthy and still producing well. Even though those seedling also got damages in cyclones.
If the tree got the borer I would try and keep it short cause the structure inside structure might be compromised.
Yay tropo, keep the seedlings going, we gotta plant lots to find the ones that love it here.
Brian,
Anthony Lamb, mentions in his book Fruits of Borneo that one of the natural habitats of Durio zibethinus is peat swamp forest so I would not guess you are overwatering. Hey maybe if you get a fruit of that one you will start appreciate the heavenly durian flavor more!
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Cassowary i will keep an eye on it however it can not be related to drought as i hand water my trees religiously if anything i would say the soil is over saturated compared to dry. I did some googling and something mentioned about borers thriving in a very high nitrogen environment, i certainly would have a very high nitrogen environment around my trees
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What about other tree species around your area, are they subject to borers ?
Around here Citrus are subject to Elephant weevil larvae borers, in a feedback loop maybe of physical damage / root rot.
Probably a host of other possible candidates in your Wet Tropics area, jumping across from native trees ??
There is some thought that stressed trees are more attractive to pests.
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cassowary your tree companion comment reminded me of a conclusion I made a couple of weeks ago. As far as I can tell our best fruiting durians on the island are grown on sites where huge mangoes worked the soil previously. Every good durian had a mango work the site for 50-100 years. Looking at the soil that mangoes create i can see the fertility is very high in comparison to where mangoes were not grown, these are inferior wild mangoes so most of the fruit just rots under the tree, creating massive amounts of fertility. And some mangoes are native to borneo, where durians are also native. Most of the mangoes here are indica but I can assume the genus works the soil similarly. I've yet to take a soil sample under the massive durian tree. But I do want to soon to compare to the soil on my site.
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Cassowary i will keep an eye on it however it can not be related to drought as i hand water my trees religiously if anything i would say the soil is over saturated compared to dry. I did some googling and something mentioned about borers thriving in a very high nitrogen environment, i certainly would have a very high nitrogen environment around my trees
Maybe when "high" amounts of Nitrates are present, Calcium and Silica is reduced and it makes it easier for borers to damage to the tissue... Silica might wear out their chewing organs faster or something like that.
Pagnr, I am happy our citrus isn't affected by borers "yet'..
Soursop and Rollinia are the ones that I have noticed get affected. There is one native tree species that have so much borer holes the trunk looks like a swiss cheese almost, but it survives. I'll try and get an image up, it's quite extraordinary.
Maybe cutting them out would help?
We got something that looks like the Elephant weevil that are often on the foliage of durian but haven't seen any holes in durian wood yet, only scrape marks on young tips. Do weevils do that? Or do they only drill?
spencerw,
Wow that is such a beautiful and healthy tree!
Yes your onto something here, maybe cause there's so much biological activity under the mango it creates a soil that leches very slowly despite rain and high temp. I have noticed Mangifera indica have dense canopies so the soil might have been in heavy shade for many many decades reducing turning OM into C02.
I planted one small durian under a huge mango tree and it's growing well despite low sunshine, will see how it goes when the mango is trimmed eventually.
I think you got something here since mangifera indica would be very close to a "natural habitat" companion, rather then using exotic plants from other parts of the world. Focusing on recreating natural durian habitat would probably bring some benefits.
Petai, keranji, shorea, mangifera, dipterocarpace etc..
And can see they planted some ginger species under the durian, might be beneficial too.
Peace
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We got something that looks like the Elephant weevil that are often on the foliage of durian but haven't seen any holes in durian wood yet, only scrape marks on young tips.
Do weevils do that? Or do they only drill?
Yes the adult weevil does oblong oval scrapes on twigs and branches of Citrus.
Pretty sure the drill holes are the larvae exit holes, so two life phases.
On really big trees you can't see the adults feeding, and you can't hear the larvae tunnelling out.
As they say "see no weevil, hear no weevil"
There is one native tree species that have so much borer holes the trunk looks like a swiss cheese... Maybe cutting them out would help?
Hard to say, could be a completely different bug, some can be pretty specific to their hosts.
If it is the same pest, it might help. Weevil holes are pretty much about pencil diameter here.
There are known links between weevil species and phytopthora.
https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/citrus_rootstock/rootstock-literature/2003.%20Graham,%203%20PLt%20Dis,%20Rtstk%20Diaprepes%20Complex%20with%20Phytophthora.pdf
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Durian are flowering around where I am. Fingers crossed for a good year. Had a couple of dry periods this year which should help stimulate flowering I believe.
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Ohh then it might be that weevil doing the branch damage to some young durian tree's..
Weevil and fungus, yeah seams possible.
We only have tiny flower buds.
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Thanks for the replies - particularly your detailed answer cassawory!
Have had fruit spotting bug and one called helopeltis suggested.
The tree is fairly mature - almost 4 m tall and the other leaves look ok.
I’ll spray it and see what happens. The rest of the leaves and tree look pretty healthy!
Cheers
Jim
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Hey Fruit Nerd
Check your inbox re the grafts
Cheers
Jim
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Hi Jim, have replied. Had a busy week so not sure if I missed your message earlier or whether the notifications weren't working properly. Hope I'm not too late.
Interestingly, I managed to pick up a Durio macrantha today. Pretty happy with that. Starting to get a nice collection of durians.
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fruit nerd,
I read a book from MARDI about the Durio genus and they affirm that "Durio Machrantha" is not a separate species from Durio Zibethinus, it's is more likely a "wild" Durio Zibethinus according to them.
It's in the Durian of Malaysia eBook.
They make that claim based on the flower, leaf and fruit characteristics. To me it's so strange Kosterman would have separated the species if now there is some consensus against that. Kosterman for sure knew durian inside out.
I have seen a large seedling grown from a D. Macrantha seed and it looks like a Zibethinus.
I have noticed that some of my Balinese durian seedlings are very compact and dense in growth habit so there's huge difference in phylotaxis in Durio zibethinus and that type of genetic material might have the cyclone advantage that "D machrantha" offers.
And in the same eBook they say wild durians can be find on very nutrient poor rocky areas with vertical movement of water... I always thought durian needed high levels of nutrients in the soil... Maybe wet rock is enough or preferred??
And they also say they are found wild in shallow peat moss swamps, wouldn't that kinda rock the boat about Phytophra palmivora being the main disease for Zibethinus.
So here we have one example of extremely low organic matter retained and the other with extremely high levels of OM in the acidic peat moss.
I have observed that huge amounts of water is key for growth of Durian (sprinkler going 24/7 365) here but haven't figured out the ultimate soil substrate.
I wounder how or if one could replicate a peat moss swamp in a 10L POT??
And Why would Lime help durian? or getting the soil PH to 6.5?? I know Peter talks about this and local farms does the same but to me it seams contradictory to the botanical habitat data. Albrecht method might not be applicable to "swamp" or humid area soils.
I am trying myself with lime on some tropical water lowing trees to see what the effect would be.
And Peat moss can eventually turn into anthracite https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/swamp-soils
It seam our coal reserves where filled with thriving swamps long time ago.
One year ago I dumped one wheel barrow full of moist beach sand on a 1.5m short durian seedling and it have not affected the plant negatively. And there would have been more sodium and chloride in there compared to the native soil.
Next I am gonna try with a load of undiluted salt water.
And some other ones will get diluted salt water in different ratios cause to me it does not seam right about Durian being so sensitive to salinity.
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Thanks for the information. I agree that the seedling looks like a Zibethinus. Still happy to have it, regardless of its classification. Definitely aiming to get a wide diversity of durians.
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Cassowary, where did you get the Malaysia e book?
Perhaps durian is pretty adaptable. My observation of a ph of 6.5 being desirable is based on being told at farm stays on Penang and Sabah that the soil where the durians are growing is 6.5. They worry about fungal root diseases and in general high acidity favors such problems. Having said that I haven’t personally seen root disease problems here in durian like we often see in avocado.
Anyway, durian is being planted in varying conditions here in CR. A friend has fruited a Mongthong at more than 1000m. Ph probably ranges from 4.3 or so to 6.5 in varied climate situations. Lots of seedlings and selections from Asia. Pretty decent seedlings are now being grafted and distributed locally. We are growing 4 of those as well more seedlings from Penang and Sabah and around 10 well known Malay and Thai selections.
La Niña has given us a very dry year that has been great for fruit production overall but made it complicated for planting. We are having to hand water some 20 trees that were planted when we expected the ground to stay wet but…
We had a terrific mangosteen season of 1500kg and lots of other important fruits as well. But the most interesting is what has happened with durian. The dry season started two months early in December. There was already some durian fruits on the trees that started to ripen around April while the trees were flowering again. Basically that pattern has continued all year. Light flowering every few weeks with a trickling fruit drop that has continued up until now. Every month has seen production! The last fruits are still on the tree and the trees are flowering again. So, we should have durian for another week or so, then get a break until February when we should get the fruit drop from this flowering.
Peter
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Peter what do you consider a dry year ? How many mm of rain have you had so far this year?
Fruiting a monthong at 1000m that is the highest I have heard of, would love to know the average temperatures for that place as well as absolute minimums, that must be on the absolute margins for a durian. I had 95% leaf drop on two of my trees this year at temps of 8.4 and 8.9C
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Wow, that's quite amazing. None of my trees dropped even a single leaf despite, though as mentioned before, my minimums would not have been as low as yours. Micro climates make a big difference. On the positive side of the cold nights, I've seen a couple of lychees loaded with fruit.
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Yeh mate they were cold burnt to a crisp, leaves fell off in massive amounts over the following days.
Both trees are now bouncing back strongly. Yep the cold winter seems to have triggered a good year for lychees nearly everyone with lychee trees have good crops......until the birds get them if not netted.
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At 1000m elevation in the CR Central Valley it probably never goes below about 15c.
Rainfall in my area on the southern Caribbean coast has good distribution. Statistically the wettest months are July and December and the driest are September and March. That pattern can work to give us two durian harvests during the year.
A very dry year is about 2meters of rainfall. A very wet year could be more than 5m!. 3-3.5m might be typical.
Peter
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Peter our main durian growing areas here in Nth Qld are wetter than that however rainfall here is much more seasonal with a massive wet season and a drier season. For example Cape tribulation averages 4068mm per year with peak up to 6655mm per year, Babinda averages 4265mm with peak of 7040mm per year and Tully averages 4085mm per year with peak of 7898mm. However I think when you look at Penang it has a much drier climate than this only averaging around 2500mm per year and they produce arguably the best durian in the world.
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Peter, the Durian book is packed with info, really good! And the images are stunning!! Seriously some of the rare durian species have magnificent flowers.
If you have an android or iphone then you will be able to log into this Malaysian eBook store app with the details I got, I'll share it with or anyone else. The app is called e-sentral.
https://www.e-sentral.com/book/info/123036/DURIO-OF-MALAYSIA
Anyone just PM me. I like to share and this one was made by a gov agency from tax money so should really be free.
1000m, that must be a world first for a Zibethinus in cultivation.
Ok thanks Peter, so it's more to reduce phytophra palmiviora (sorry for my spelling) then anything else. Maybe that 6.5 ph that they found is when durian is growing outside of the peat swamp in richer clay or alluvial spots.
Did you ever notice anything significant after that you started applying calcium carbonate?
I wounder how a rock mineral based potting mix with flowing water will affect root rot incidence.
I'll have to do some experiments.
Interesting info regarding the warm water current, When I where in Ecuador I heard that James and his family at Guacuyacu had 4 flowering events during a la nina period if I am not remembering it wrong.
So amazing to hear you are getting a long season!
Durian flowering for us have been very low so far this season, and no lychees either.. Jackfruit have been dropping fruit for 12 months now which is strange for us so maybe the warm water current is affecting us in that way here. Or maybe cosmic rays?? According to Dr Svensmark they are the drivers of cloud cover and thus the drivers of earthly ambient temperature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpDDqGqN16s
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jt9SZ727/southern-oscillation-index-la-ninja-el-ninno.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Jt9SZ727)
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/#tabs=Pacific-Ocean&pacific=History&enso-impacts=La-Ni%C3%B1a-impacts
tropo. I tried to access that data from BOM but I can not find it, do you have a link to the historical data search?
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Off topic but our rambutan have set a very small amount of fruit but not flowering heavily yet. Hopefully that changes in the next few weeks.
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Cassowary if your asking how I find the historical rainfall data you need to use the climate data online feature on BOM then type in whatever town you want and it will show all the stations in that area. This link hopefully shows you for example cape tribulation
http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/cdio/weatherData/av?p_nccObsCode=136&p_display_type=dailyDataFile&p_startYear=&p_c=&p_stn_num=031012
When you click on the link it will show you rainfall data for this year so far and then down the bottom of you click view monthly data it will take you to the page that shows historical data going way way back
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Guys, if you can get access to genetic material, plant more varieties. Never expected this. Humble D101 defeated such heavyweights as Red Prawn and Black Thorn on the day test. Look at the wrinkles. It says it all.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hf4RyhDK/20221101-231156.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hf4RyhDK)
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Looks incredible durian lover unfortunately we have major issues getting access to many of the varieties here and it’s basically impossible for anything new to come in due to the oxygen thieves at Australian customs
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That’s interesting Durian lover. What competition are you referring to?
We have 101 and Bkack thorn but no red prawn. There’s actually quite a few varieties here now. I’m planting seedlings too. There is a farm here with a durian I never saw on my trips to Malaysia, D-2. What a great durian. Before we found out what it is some we’re calling it Tiramisu!
Peter
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Agree, that durian looks great Durian Lover :) I'm happy enough with the diversity of durians I can get my hands on. Already have 4 cultivars and have quite a few seedlings including macrantha, ganyao, red prawn and kradum thong plus more of unknown varieties. Will be planting the red prawn seedling tomorrow
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That’s interesting Durian lover. What competition are you referring to?
Meaning D101 tasted better that day than Red Prawn or Black Thorn. Latter two are somewhat champion durians in reputation, and D101 is a bit forgotten so to speak.
Overall my perception how you grow or eat durian changed in the last few weeks. To me, Musang King is still the best if properly ripened and especially those graded triple A. But paradox has happened. I stayed at a friends house in Singapore for 10 days and there was a durian stall 2 min away. They only had Musang King. So after 10 days, I'm so fed up with Musang King, that given a choice, I avoid it now and would go for another premier variety ever since moved to a new place. Even though I think MK is the best, lol! Overall last couple weeks confirmed that it's not variety so much, but soil, climate, maturity of the tree etc. Given right conditions any premier variety can be amazing. Black Thorn was mind blowing good when I had first time 10 years ago, but this week I tried 4 times (first time after 10 years ), and all of them I would say slightly below other premier varieties, like Tekka, D101. Apparently Black Thorn tree needs to be well matured for fruits to live up to reputation. Now it's off season and the soil in a part of Malaysia where they are coming from now may not be optimal for full flavor. Basically, my point is you never know what will shine in your particular soil, therefore it's worth giving a try to all premier varieties.
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You make some good points Durian Lover but I think it would be wise for those with the space to also plant good quality seedlings along with the best varieties.
First of all, planting seedlings is the only way to get improved varieties. Every fantastic selection was just some seedling when it was planted.
Not all these varieties will do well everywhere. In Malaysia they encourage certain varieties regionally while discouraging certain ones that haven’t done well everywhere.
Ideally we can develop our own selections that produce great fruit in our zones.
We have about 15 select varieties in our collection and I graft from some of those as a business. But I am also very into my seedlings. I have material that I think has great potential collected from Penang and Sabah and a few from here.
Earlier in my career I was fortunate enough to develop what many figure is the best rambutan in Costa Rica despite lots of select material coming from Asia. Just planting seeds….
Peter
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Thanks tropo, that link worked yay!!
Those wrinkles are intense and yes it's important to diversify.
Seedlings even more important in order to get adaptation going with the succession of offspring.
Grafted durian go for 100-150 here, it's a sellers market for sure as supply is low.
Have anyone tried to apply bulk amounts of Diatomacious earth (Silicates) to the soil around durian?
I know there where someone way back that did this with quite good success in keeping the durian trees from dying even without irrigation in our climate. Maybe it's the Silicone or maybe it reduces pathogenic biota in the soil?
Peace
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I like seedlings for different reasons. Trees are majestic and elegant. Just beautiful to look at. Grafted durian tree are like bushy Christmas tree, not very attractive and are subjected to theft from animals and humans. I don't don't have problems with rats or squirrels like numerous other people at different tropical locations. But monkeys are a big problem, and with seedlings it's easy to protect crop. Just prune all lower branches and wrap slippery aluminum or stainless steel sheet higher up on the trunk. No human or animal able to climb.
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Durian in Singapore was amazing, granted there are many vendors with subpar quality. Could be said about anywhere. I could spend an easy $100 a day in Singapore eating durian sometimes closer to 200. That’s just too much for me. My best experience buying durian was in Davao where I would get choice arancillo durians anywhere from $1-3 a piece. The flavor is very strong when you find a good one and overall the experience was just as good as any musang king I’ve tried
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That’s a great price Benjamin, a 2kg durian costs about $15 here. We sell grafted durian trees for $20.
What time of year we’re you in Davao?
Peter
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Durian in Singapore was amazing, granted there are many vendors with subpar quality. Could be said about anywhere. I could spend an easy $100 a day in Singapore eating durian sometimes closer to 200. That’s just too much for me. My best experience buying durian was in Davao where I would get choice arancillo durians anywhere from $1-3 a piece. The flavor is very strong when you find a good one and overall the experience was just as good as any musang king I’ve tried
Actually prices are much more reasonable now. I could get MK for 16 SG dollars a kilo ( 11.50 USD). Musang King in Malaysia now 40 ringit a kilo ( 8.5 USD ). For 1.5 kg fruit its reasonable. Black Thorn double MK price. 80 ringit a kilo. Mind you, it's off seasin now. Second season starts in December, prices should be even lower.
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Peter, I went a few times, late August is usually the best time to visit. They have a festival called kadayawan every year in celebration of the main fruit season, where durian, mangosteen, lanzones , marang and pomelo are all in abundance. There are so many vendors during the season that it would be impossible to visit and miss them
That’s good to know,DL.
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DurianLover,
Good method for keeping monkeys away. We have none here luckly but plenty of raiders from the sky!
Wow BT selling for so much more. Maybe MK will become so common eventually that price will go down considerably.
BenMango,
Is it the Chinese demand that have started to bring the price up? Or have it always been expensive in Singapore?
The Chinese demand must have had some manjor changes to durian in SEA in the last decade.
Finca,
Wow here the price ratio for fruit:tree is way different here.
7 usd/kg:20 usd tree 1:2
12 usd/kg:100 usd tree 1:8
100x 20 = 2000 usd
100x100 = 10000 usd
establishment cost is so much higher here.
but you could sell for 35 a kilo to distributors in south and west. But you still have to pay for refrigerated freight yourself and that would take away some of the profit from the higher priced fruit. And even with farmer protection contracts you might not get paid fro the full load.
Local plant prices have to go down before we can expand here.
Even 10 000 more tree's wouldnt saturate the market here.
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My model is local sales. People come to me for the fruits. We harvested 1500kg of mangosteen and around 500kg of durian this year and sold it all at the farm and our farmers market. I’m happy with that amount of mangosteen and content with the prices we get for our products here but am working to ramp up the durian production, both fruit and trees. I think I have successfully grafted about 300 durian trees this year. At this point I think there are only 2 other nurseries in the country grafting durian to any scale. People come from Panama for trees. Some have been taken to Ecuador. I get lots of inquiries to ship trees but we don’t even ship within Costa Rica.
Peter
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Cassowary, that is a good point and worth nothing. considering Singapore is one of the most expensive cities in the world, doesn’t surprise me that durian can and will go for a premium price. As to why the prices have gone down as DL mentioned, I would be curious to know more. Once you factor in everything is imported from neighboring Malaysia , Thailand or Indonesia , it’s no surprise the prices are high
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Cassowary, that is a good point and worth nothing. considering Singapore is one of the most expensive cities in the world, doesn’t surprise me that durian can and will go for a premium price. As to why the prices have gone down as DL mentioned, I would be curious to know more. Once you factor in everything is imported from neighboring Malaysia , Thailand or Indonesia , it’s no surprise the prices are high
Singapore imports from Malaysia only when durian season is there. When I left a week ago, prices went even lower. You could get Musang King kilo for $14 SG dollars ( 10 USD). In Malaysia was as low as $8 USD a kilo. Almost the same prices. Everyone started planting Musang King 10 years ago, so supply has increased dramatically. People crave other varieties as well, and those premium varieties now sell for almost as much as Musang King. Since very few farmers were planting those older premium varieties recently. In fact D160 was even more expensive than Musang King in KL. Although I remember it used to be like half the cost many years ago. Currently Black Thorn hype. Everyone plants just this. In 3-10 years years there will be a new hype :)
I mostly just rent space rates that add to cost in SG, but SG dealers get excellent prices from Malaysian wholesalers. Truck leaves early in in the morning Malaysia, by 4:30 Pm in Singapore. Transportation and fuel is cheap in Malaysia, doesn't add much to the cost towards bulk order. Hence, prices now similar Singapore vs Malaysia. In fact I got even better deals in Singapore. I go towards 4 pm just before new stock arrives. they are eager to get rid off of the old stock. I get decent prepackaged premium durian box for $11 USD in Singapore.
I don't think they import from Indonesia. I'm in Indonesian now, and seedling culture is still strong here. Besides they cut durians in order to keep in shops for a longer. Very hard to find dropped durians. Cut durians are very hard sell for sophisticated Malaysian and SG consumers. It's cheap. Around 2-4 USD for a big fruit, but I would rather spend $10 for a quality one and smaller flesh amount.
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Peter,
IMO that is a good model as it helps to keep the fertility on the land (husks fruit waste etc). And reduced middlemen that can have a negative impact on all other parties.
DL,
4pm for the best price then! Thanks! I wish we had that kind of movement of Durian here.
Here it is so scarce that people raid botanical gardens for durian to sell at the local market at $30 per kg! And they cut them of the tree way before they are ripe and then unknowing Chinese visitors buy them. It's not only theft but also fruit crime cause one can destroy someones opinion of the fruit with selling crap fruit and then they spread around that durian is awful etc.
One gang rolled in with a wheelbarrow 30 min after the gardeners left so they got time before security came.
And one year ago one friend had his orchard raided by a gang, lost most durian, wheelbarrows of it!
These are not hippies or fruitarians, these are criminals as they get $30/kg for the fruit.
Not fun to have overcome bats, cockatoos, bugs, monsoon and mozzies to have thieves grab it all.
Yes seedling culture is still strong which is great, I have mostly seen them tying durians with ropes so that they can be hoisted down. The only picked durian that we noticed was "bangkok durian" as it is common that they splash if fallen from high in the tree onto non mulched soil but still most of the farms we saw use the rope method.
Peace
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(https://i.postimg.cc/Cn74tw4k/746-BD09-C-C323-409-F-B063-8127-E92-D2-F08.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn74tw4k)
(https://i.postimg.cc/14G7wQD9/75206603-C2-A8-4034-B7-D2-15-A8-D23-B1169.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14G7wQD9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7bN8D7sM/775-E7-C44-5733-4367-81-AC-75261674-D986.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7bN8D7sM)
Greetings. Update on the grafts onto my 12 year old crap durian.
Chopped it a year ago but took a while before Trina could get here and waiting for the temps to rise and the sap to start flowing in scion material.
She put 5 onto side shoots - kradom tong , horlor and Peter Knudsen
Most died pretty quickly but the 2 Peter Knudsen on the large side shoot are looking good at 2 weeks - leaf remnants still green which I am assuming (in our current heat) means there has been a connection made.
It’s local tree - seedling of monthong heritage - that has become a bit of a local favourite. It also grows aggressively so hopefully if the grafts take with a trunk and root system that size it should take off !!
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Visited the lady I get pollen off - she has lots of durian trees that she has no idea what they are. Lots were in deeply shaded areas amongst other trees.
She recently has chopped a lot out and these old, lanky trees are getting some light and showing signs of life
(https://i.postimg.cc/VrrL019Q/B172-B737-7-E5-A-40-D5-907-F-243306-EF7126.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VrrL019Q)
This is an interesting one with lots of flowers off the main trunk - she has no recollection of ever getting any fruit off it. I didn’t think this happened ??
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I have a Peter Knudsen durian and it is growing very vigorously (in ground ~6-8 months). Currently has no shade cloth but is shaded by a mulberry that I staked into the ground. Had no problems with the recent heat and is flushing now.
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Fingers crossed. They are a good tasting one too! Had a couple last season.
You will have a few more varieties by the end of the week mate !🙂
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https://boletines.exportemos.pe/recursos/boletin/25207.pdf
Indonesian exports stood at only 331 MTs in 1993, down from 435 MTs in 1989 but up from 277 MTs in 1992. Singapore has remained Indonesia's largest export market, accounting for 98 percent of all exports in 1993. The only other nations importing more than 1 MT from Indonesia in 1993 were Taiwan and Brunei.
The amount of durian Indonesia exports is small in comparison with Malaysia and Thailand but they still export some. Seedling culture is good in theory but when they are planting seeds from mediocre fruits, not so much. I found a lot of the seedling durians in Indonesia, Sumatra specifically were not very good.
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Planting seedlings is best for somebody with the space to plant quite a few. Certainly there will be some disappointment. But it is the only way to get the next terrific durian.
I’m interested in opinions on selecting seed material to plant.
I’m not just planting out anything. Most recently I’ve planted some very goog Penang durian seeds that came from mixed orchards. I’ve also planted a couple of D-2 seeds that came from a neighbors farm who has lots of variety.
The prospect of actually hybridizing intrigues me too. I have hybridized ornamentals and I figure it wouldn’t be that hard with durians.
Peter
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Planting seedlings is best for somebody with the space to plant quite a few. Certainly there will be some disappointment. But it is the only way to get the next terrific durian.
I’m interested in opinions on selecting seed material to plant.
I’m not just planting out anything. Most recently I’ve planted some very goog Penang durian seeds that came from mixed orchards. I’ve also planted a couple of D-2 seeds that came from a neighbors farm who has lots of variety.
The prospect of actually hybridizing intrigues me too. I have hybridized ornamentals and I figure it wouldn’t be that hard with durians.
Peter
I was disappointed to learn seedling success rate is not that good judging from this particular example. The farmer in Philippines planted 100 Chanee seeds, and only three seedlings were superior. One particular seedling named Duyaya sounds incredible. 55% of the weight edible portion with superior quality. Compare to standard 30% after husk and seeds weight. But I suspect Penang seedling from premier varieties will have better success rate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RMt5CLn7Ik
@cassowary 4pm rule seems to apply at my particular location only. After posting I found out that I've been buying from wholesaler entire time without being aware of it. Also "white privilege" helped with discounts, lol...Prices are higher elsewhere in town. Here is his Facebook page if you are ever passing by through town: https://web.facebook.com/groups/202054478437173/user/100009790715484/ Only 150 meters from MRT station.
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One thing that is really intriguing me at the moment is the possibility of getting durian outside of the main season. I'm learning now of a couple of trees in the general area that consistently fruit in Nov. This is a few months earlier then our main season.
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Quick question, we have seeds from a tree that produces in November. From what I understand, this is the only tree they have that fruits this time of year (therefore cross pollination is unlikely). What are the chances that a seedling of this tree will fruit at the same time of year? I imagine it would be a bit of a gamble. Maybe grafting would be a surer bet. It is meant to be a highly productive tree.
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Hey Michael
I tried a couple of fruit off that tree - really nice! And seems totally self compatible …. Wonder whether it’s flowering will vary being in a different microclimate ? Ie Bloomfield as opposed to Cairns - definitely worth growing !!
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It was quite good I think, very rich! From what I understand, up the season starts slightly earlier up towards Cooktown and ends a bit later down around Mission Beach. Might fruit a bit later in Cairns vs Bloomfield but I'd guess it would be still early/off-season.
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I’m any case it would be worth grafting that tree and planting it around, study it and enjoy the result regardless of whether it produces early. But even if the fruits start dropping only a couple of weeks earlier than the rest it will be an advantage. That the grafted tree should produce sooner and that you guys like the fruit….
Peter
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Jumping into this discussion way too late but had to mention to my South FL peeps, I picked up some fresh Durian pieces today from Foodtown supermarket in Davie. Obviously, nobody had any more detail to provide me than already on the label.
Could probably debate on how fresh it was, but it tasted significantly better than any frozen ones I've ever purchased there; the flavor was bonkers (in the best way).
A shame nobody else in my household wanted to eat it lol. Cant emphasize the title of this thread enough, there is not enough durian down here in SoFlo.
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A shame nobody else in my household wanted to eat it lol.
It's nice to be able to enjoy durian with others, it's also nice to have more for yourself :)
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If that tree is a lone producer I would plant as many of those seedlings out as possible. When I'm looking into starting and growing out seedlings there are a few things I'm after. A lone tree who produces well. So its genetics will be reliable. It seems durians like to outcross. Which can be interesting, however most of our common durians here are very poor quality. So most of the time the fruits come from mixed durian orchards where the genetics will be very crossed. So that one good tree will be pollinated with the poor quality ones. So loners that produce well are intriguing. I also prefer smaller fruits for marketability. Also reliability of fruit production and fruit quality. And also that the tree is very strong and healthy. Luckily I know of a single tree with all of these traits. This is the only genetic I think is worth growing out seeds that I've come across.. I would also prefer to utilize that cultivar as root stock as it has all the desirable traits and I assume the rootstock will also effect the graft on top. So may as well graft that tree onto its own seedlings as well.
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Thanks for the ideas Peter and Spencer.
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Lots of interesting thoughts.
I’m thinking that you have a better chance at improving quality by getting crosses.
My market doesn’t want small fruits. My best clients always want the biggest fruits.
For rootstock I want to use the biggest seeds.
I agree that you want material from a tree that is strong, self fertile, a consistent producer. What I want to do is introduce something that might produce a better, terrific durian.
Eventually I want to intentionally hybridize durian material.
It’s a multigenerational project.
Peter
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I'm surprised your clients want the largest fruits available! Your prices must be much lower and your quality better. Our current highway robbery market prices are $10 per lb. No one would want to buy a 12lb montong where half of the fruit isn't edible and lots of weight in skin. But our genetics are inferior so the montong is always unproperly ripened. I'd rather sell a 4lb fruit where every bit of flesh is delicious. We don't have a major durian market yet so its still hard to sell when people haven't even tried durian yet. So interesting how different markets develop!
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I'm going to start planting out more durian trees soon. I have a bore near the area I will be planting in. Do you think the roots of durian trees could give any issue? I will be topping them to control their height so the trees shouldn't become too big. Would 5-6 m from the bore be okay?
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Our durians aren’t that big. 2-2.5kg. $8kg. Cheap for tourists but not so much for locals. The quality is pretty good on our farm but there’s lousy durian around that hurts the local reputation. We try to be careful, take care of our clients.
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Not too sure what you mean by a bore?
Durian is one of the trees we let get tall eventually since the fruits fall when ready and aren’t usually damaged. More fruit per tree!
We do prune to shape, trying to get mostly horizontal branches with good space, open interior.
Peter
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For pumping bore water. Our irrigation runs off bore water and our house uses uses bore water as a backup during the dry season. Regarding height, I'd love to let our trees get tall but cyclones are a real risk here. Would be nice to be in an area with the risk of tropical cyclones.
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I'm surprised your clients want the largest fruits available! Your prices must be much lower and your quality better. Our current highway robbery market prices are $10 per lb. No one would want to buy a 12lb montong where half of the fruit isn't edible and lots of weight in skin. But our genetics are inferior so the montong is always unproperly ripened. I'd rather sell a 4lb fruit where every bit of flesh is delicious. We don't have a major durian market yet so its still hard to sell when people haven't even tried durian yet. So interesting how different markets develop!
Is there a growing consensus on the best all around (flavor, texture, productivity, ripening) small durians for Hawaii? Pohakulani? Others?
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Prices vary depending on quality and demand. At the moment we have two varieties, one costing 20% more than the other. That’s assuming the whole fruit is good. If we suspect a fruit might not be that great we put it in a half price pile and people can sort through that. A friend has musang king for sale and he gets a bit more for that. Like in Asia.
Durian is a very good business here. A problem we have is that, in stores and on the street, there will be durians that have been picked early, some of it stolen, and so buyers can get a bad impression of durian here.
Peter
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Curiously, I have two durians in the ground from the same fruit (last season) with very different characteristics. One is 81 cm high with a leaf length of 14 cm while the other is only 57 cm with a leaf length of only 10 cm. Other than the shorter seedling being much smaller, the plant is growing okay. It regularly has new growth but the leaves are a bit yellow (the intense sun/heat at the moment isn't helping). I'm hoping I end up with a nice dwarf durian but wondering if others have seen large differences among seedlings from the same tree.
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Curiously, I have two durians in the ground from the same fruit (last season) with very different characteristics. One is 81 cm high with a leaf length of 14 cm while the other is only 57 cm with a leaf length of only 10 cm. Other than the shorter seedling being much smaller, the plant is growing okay. It regularly has new growth but the leaves are a bit yellow (the intense sun/heat at the moment isn't helping). I'm hoping I end up with a nice dwarf durian but wondering if others have seen large differences among seedlings from the same tree.
Not sure about trees planted from the exact same fruit, but certainly there are massive differences in vigour and growth between individual trees. Two of the fastest growing ones I have seen that are not seedling trees, are the P88 and kradum. Peter salleras has also found these two too grow really well and fruit really quickly in his climate.
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The bore should have a fairly thick steel pipe so the durian roots shouldn't be able to damage that. I doubt the durian roots will ever go down to the bottom of the bore where the impeller head is. Should be no worries. Eventually you will be able to see the large "surface roots" and be able to identify if they are going to the pump area, they might is the pump is leaking. They will search out that water eventually.
Peter,
same issue here with stolen or crap fruit spoiling peoples first experience.
florida,
Was that a hawaii durian or Thai durian??
Yes you will have genetic difference in offspring from same parentage, even if the same tree pollinated the female you got the fruit/seed from, the recent big durian breeding program in Thailand used only a few varieties (think chanee, mon thong, kan yao, puang manee etc) and crossed them. There should be an article online describing what they used.
Me and my bother aren't genetically identical but come from the same mother and father, tree's are the same in some way.
Peace
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I any advice one what characteristics to pick when picking a seedling yo plant. One of my trees died and Im outside of durians optimal range so I’ve tried grafted trees and they jusy can’t adapt. I planted maybe 30 seeds from fruits I ate last year and a good portion of them died over the winter which weeded out the less cold tolerant ones.
How do I pick which one to plant in the ground? Should I be going for the tallest most vigorous one or a smaller more well formed one. I was thinking a smaller one that looks a bit healthy as it is just in a back yard I don’t partially want a giant tree.
Keep in mind in the photo some are just in a pot that’s much taller so it makes the height difference seem much bigger than it actually is. Only re potted this week and tan out of potting mix
(https://i.postimg.cc/MnbNXPZN/B1-D6-F3-FD-65-B6-42-FC-B1-F6-EB9756861-A0-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MnbNXPZN)
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Interesting question. I'm no expert but from research in Australia, Red Prawn was found to be fairly cold tolerant (no leaf drop with min of ~5C from memory). Not sure about cold tolerance of seedlings vs grafted but I think it's generally accepted that seedlings are more resilient. One more thing, there are durio species that grow at higher elevations in Malaysia. It could be possible that grafting onto such rootstocks could improve cold tolerance. I have heard of durian growing and fruiting all the way down near the Whitsundays. I imagine Magnetic island could be a nice micro climate.
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I any advice one what characteristics to pick when picking a seedling yo plant. One of my trees died and Im outside of durians optimal range so I’ve tried grafted trees and they jusy can’t adapt. I planted maybe 30 seeds from fruits I ate last year and a good portion of them died over the winter which weeded out the less cold tolerant ones.
How do I pick which one to plant in the ground? Should I be going for the tallest most vigorous one or a smaller more well formed one. I was thinking a smaller one that looks a bit healthy as it is just in a back yard I don’t partially want a giant tree.
Keep in mind in the photo some are just in a pot that’s much taller so it makes the height difference seem much bigger than it actually is. Only re potted this week and tan out of potting mix
(https://i.postimg.cc/MnbNXPZN/B1-D6-F3-FD-65-B6-42-FC-B1-F6-EB9756861-A0-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MnbNXPZN)
All of the durian seedlings will become large eventually so if you don't want a big tree you have to prune it multiple times per year or not plant it at all. There aren't any natural dwarf durian available that I know of.
And if you think you have one it is probably more like a sick tree or malnourished tree.
If durian tree's doesn't grow more then 1m per year after the 1st year there is something wrong. And fruit would most likely be 15 years in the future.
If the trunk is less then 6cm diameter after 3 years, growth rate is not what it can be and it's not gonna fruit in between 5 to 10 years for a seedling. IMOE.
The most vigorous seedlings you have probably doesn't have much genetic variability unless you have sown seeds from 30 different mother tree's with themself quite a lot of genetic variability.
It's more likely the soil in the pot (even if you have the same blend there will be differences), herbivores, position, water and seed size have determined which are your biggest and smallest seedlings now.
If you want to try and gain some cold sensitivity you probably need a sample number higher then 1000. And that would have to be with lot's of different sources seeds.
The most cold sensitive durian species known is durio kinabaluensis but I do not know of anyone in AU having it. And you would have to cross that one with Durio zibethinus and plant heaps of those seeds if you want a fruit that resembles common durian. That project would take around 20 years. I am gonna start it as soon I get the kinabaluensis.
You would most likely have to plant a durian close to a wall that receives sun as to have something radiating heat at night so that you have higher chance for survival long-term.
You would probably do good with installing a big proper galv steel enclosure with shade mesh to protect from wind and mid summer sun during dry days.
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I thought I would share this video of an operation in the area that are sharing their experience with trellising trees on a tatura trellis.
Durian, Jackfruit etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztEzssc35Vc
He mentions many points why he will have to take the 10x100m rows he made.
Very enlightening video and many good points on why it can be a nightmare to have the trellis.
Posts rooting after less then 10 years, wire rubbing on branches causing issues, wire can damage trees if a windbreak and tree falls on the wire which is likely. Can not use some pruning tools cause trellis in the way etc.
They did ultra high density which is just not good for any evergreen tree's and he will explain how the trellis affected the outcome of that too.
PS. it's no me in the video, just thought it was a good share.
In another video he stated he's gonna have to take out his durian tree's too :(
That was for more reasons then the tatura trellis alone.
Peace
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I thought I would share this video of an operation in the area that are sharing their experience with trellising trees on a tatura trellis.
it can be a nightmare to have the trellis.
Sounds like Datura trellis ??
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I any advice one what characteristics to pick when picking a seedling yo plant. One of my trees died and Im outside of durians optimal range so I’ve tried grafted trees and they jusy can’t adapt. I planted maybe 30 seeds from fruits I ate last year and a good portion of them died over the winter which weeded out the less cold tolerant ones.
How do I pick which one to plant in the ground? Should I be going for the tallest most vigorous one or a smaller more well formed one. I was thinking a smaller one that looks a bit healthy as it is just in a back yard I don’t partially want a giant tree.
Keep in mind in the photo some are just in a pot that’s much taller so it makes the height difference seem much bigger than it actually is. Only re potted this week and tan out of potting mix
(https://i.postimg.cc/MnbNXPZN/B1-D6-F3-FD-65-B6-42-FC-B1-F6-EB9756861-A0-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MnbNXPZN)
All of the durian seedlings will become large eventually so if you don't want a big tree you have to prune it multiple times per year or not plant it at all. There aren't any natural dwarf durian available that I know of.
And if you think you have one it is probably more like a sick tree or malnourished tree.
If durian tree's doesn't grow more then 1m per year after the 1st year there is something wrong. And fruit would most likely be 15 years in the future.
If the trunk is less then 6cm diameter after 3 years, growth rate is not what it can be and it's not gonna fruit in between 5 to 10 years for a seedling. IMOE.
The most vigorous seedlings you have probably doesn't have much genetic variability unless you have sown seeds from 30 different mother tree's with themself quite a lot of genetic variability.
It's more likely the soil in the pot (even if you have the same blend there will be differences), herbivores, position, water and seed size have determined which are your biggest and smallest seedlings now.
If you want to try and gain some cold sensitivity you probably need a sample number higher then 1000. And that would have to be with lot's of different sources seeds.
The most cold sensitive durian species known is durio kinabaluensis but I do not know of anyone in AU having it. And you would have to cross that one with Durio zibethinus and plant heaps of those seeds if you want a fruit that resembles common durian. That project would take around 20 years. I am gonna start it as soon I get the kinabaluensis.
You would most likely have to plant a durian close to a wall that receives sun as to have something radiating heat at night so that you have higher chance for survival long-term.
You would probably do good with installing a big proper galv steel enclosure with shade mesh to protect from wind and mid summer sun during dry days.
There are dwarf grafted trees that exist. I saw them in the Philippines. Variety was Puyat. They had a tree that was in a big pot, no more than 7 feet tall that fruits. When working with durian grafts in the thousands, some varieties may show dwarf growth habits, then those can selected
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Regarding seedling size, as mentioned previously, I planted out a selected smaller durian seedling. Just an experiment but I don't believe it's small size is due to poor nutrition or bad roots. It has lots of new growth and is getting plenty or water and mulch....but still it doesn't grow much.
As far as trellising is concerned, I was planning on trellising but have decided against it. That video was certainly a motivating factor. Also, very high density planting requires a large number of plants which is quite difficult and expensive/time consuming. Another thing is I think trees look better free standing rather than on a trellis. I am not growing durian commercially so looks do play a role.
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Awesome I may as well choose the most vigorous seedling then. I’m in Townsville so we don’t get too cold but still there’s a few nights that could kill a durian each year or just prolonged cold spells. I know they wouldent be full dwarf but I was thinking just a bit smaller but you make good points so I’ll just go with the biggest. Someone on Facebook made an excellent point yesterday that it’s one of the few fruit trees that it dosent matter how tall it is because they fruit don’t get very damaged when they fall- commercially that may not be viable but for a back yard it should be ok.
I didn’t have much of a microclimate around the trees when it started as it was just open grass but there’s a lot of other trees that I’ve put in around them. They are also in a little stand with multiple trees close together which I figured will form a microclimate in the future. For now I have one of those car shades that you can put up but I’ve switched the canvas for shade cloth and only put up half of it. I have other potted plants and seedlings under there too just to use as a shade house as well as the little forest microclimate
(https://i.postimg.cc/BjM7Wv4V/92-EFC55-A-D12-E-4-F1-E-A26-C-8-DCE221-FE9-DB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BjM7Wv4V)
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Definitely agree that harvesting the fruit is not an issue but tall trees are still more prone to wind damage. Also hand pollinating would be not be possible for a very large tree. For seedlings I have grown and planted out, I selected the most vigorous seedlings (with one exception, which is planted closer to our house). I was also careful not to leave them in their pot for too long since durians grow a big tap root.
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Lots of interesting ideas. I don’t like trellising for lots of reasons but I don’t understand why you would need to go with such intensive planting. Why not have a trellis with durian trees 8m apart and try to train their leaders to the cable? Seems like there would be less complications in maintenance, and less competition and you wouldn’t have to buy so many trees!
Sophisticated nurseries are always looking for the rootstock that is going to dwarf their graft selections. Funny thing with durian is it seems everyone just uses whatever rootstock seed is available. It’s all a long project.
I feel that durians can be shaped nicely but it helps a lot if the tree is in the open with plenty of sun hitting all sides of the tree. If they’re crowded in then they usually just want to go straight up. We don’t have the severe wind problem of Oz so we top to encourage development of horizontal branches but let the trees get tall for more fruit production overall. I don’t think it causes a problem commercially that the durians fall. We are not shipping really and very few get damaged.
Peter
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Cassowary thanks very much for that video that was certainly an eye opener he raises some extremely valid points. I would like to try and track down this other video you are talking about as to why he needs to take out his durian
Thanks
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On another note does anyone know what this indicates? Mine were growing well and then all the new growth on my seedlings are coming up like this. Have had a ton of problems growing them where I live but this one is new to me
(https://i.postimg.cc/YLGxCbvj/45-CCF325-74-B7-4-E8-B-9-D21-8-B79-E01-F82-E1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YLGxCbvj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/62Q0D9wr/46-E3-B19-D-AEAA-4-D00-8-CC8-4-E0-AD71-DB378.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/62Q0D9wr)
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^ I believe that's rhizoctonia foliar blight.
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Out of interest, should anything be done for rhizoctonia foliar blight? One of my seedlings in a pot has similar leaf deformation at the moment but no discolouration like in the photos above.
I would have thought the weather recently in Townsville would be quite good for durian? I have had rain everyday for more than 2 weeks now with 170mm a couple of days ago. All my durians in the ground are happy.
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I think that a lot of stuff like that can be tolerated as long as it doesn’t get out of hand. I feel that spraying microorganisms on foliage and on the soil and biomass under the trees can go a long way towards controlling blights and contributing to healthy growth.
There’s lots of different approaches to this but we favor an EM or similar lactobaccilus culture.
Peter
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Ben mango,
Isn't all Puya scions grafted onto just whatever root stock? So then wouldn't it just be the graft and the little pot that keeps the durian tree so small? I am having a hard time to imagine Puya scion being such a natural dwarf. Or maybe they use a marcott? and then bonsai the tree. I wounder what the return on investment is for that kind of management..
Fruit nerd,
I think Peter is right, it can be controlled by EM, there are a couple of different products on the shelf in the normal hardware store, even Trichoderma but idk how effective Trichoderma is for what you describe.
You can also use google scholar and search something like "nutritional deficiency rhizoctonia", you will be amazed at how much research there is. There's also a big book something called nutrition and disease.
Peter,
I think it is because "noone" have a drawfing durian root stock. I would like to learn Indonesian because then I could really try to digest their knowledge, I believe lots of it isn't translated yet.
I also can not believe how someone can go for the ultra high density or even high density planting, but maybe they had good experiences doing it with apples so thought it would work with topicals too.
Maybe oxleyanus, oblongus, graveolens, or any other durio sp. will have a dwarfing effect??
ohip,
I have heard from a reputable source that someone have a living durian tree in Byron bay. It's planted in the ground.
If it's true you should be allright :D
Monthong is better tied to the tree as our neighbor have had one 1.5m above ground and it still smashed open really bad when it fell. But small fruits do well and does not get damaged IMO. In Bali they mainly tie up the bigger ones. In Thailand pretty much all because all varieties are pretty big and Kan Yao so valuable so it gets tied anyway. It seams they tie them up even though they cut them off from the tree or maybe it got it wrong because a lot of the time they have to tie up the branches because of the load so it's a bit confusing assessing the tree.
This man have a durian farm in South Thailand and share's a lot in English of what he have learnt from the locals, pretty good info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8lS29jNvRQ
I've seen big fruit fall and don't get any damage except some dull spikes so it depends on the variety.
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How do I go about treading the rhizoctonia? Is a general use fungicide ok? Also what’s EM?
It says I should reduce shade and crowding. Should I move all the other plants out of the shade tent? I was thinking all the extra tree would be good to add humidity and help form a microclimate but if treatment for rhizoctonia is to air it out should I take them out and increase the airflow?
I’m guessing that it’s the same problem on my soursop? Only a few meters away
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nyfrr4Vt/2684-FCAE-91-AE-44-F9-A020-6-D02-E97-A30-AD.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Nyfrr4Vt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LqCgkPK1/FCC6-A0-B5-C202-47-D6-B196-18-E267-AEF03-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LqCgkPK1)
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Don't be to worried about it, it won't kill these type of plants.
It will be hard to keep a surface fungicide on the leaf with the rain and maybe if you have sprinkler irrigation. Such ones would be Limecocide (CaC, CuSo4,) or Lime Sulphur. You can also use Zinc sulphate heptahydrate. Many nutrients are natural fungicides so you can even use nutritional mineral sprays. You can mix your own easily. Nutritional ones will be formulated to work from the inside and thus not labeled as a -cide.
1% urea (increases chance to bring in trace minerals)
0.01% ZnS04, CuS04 etc. zinc sulphate, copper sulphate.
1% fulvic acid (will hopefully chelate the mineral), fulvic acid molecules can enter the stomata but humic acid molecules are to big. Fulvic acid can be bought dry in fine powder.
You can also use lignosulphonates, basically the liquid from soaked wood that have reacted with sulphuric acid if I remember it right. yates trace element mixes have it. it's also a chelator.
the rest is rain water (98%) or filtered water with low TDS.
You can also add a surfactant or Calcium nitrate to help spread the the solution.
You could also use some seaweed extract that have not been treated with Potassium hydrate, most extracts are treated with this to get the highest yield but it damages the stimulants (gibberellic acid etc.) naturally occurring in the seaweed so you end just having a high potassium foliar spray. That's why you don't get good results with most seaweed extracts.
If it's a honest brand it will tell you the NPK on the package and then you will see if the K value is above what is normal for seaweed. They never tell you that it have been treated with a strong alkali because their main market is home gardeners who think it's all natural perfecto!
It's like braggs coco aminos, they say no salt added but it's salty as **** and if look into the process they use Hydrochloric acid to react with sodium bicarbonate. HAHA natural my *** but they never added Sodium Chloride they just created it, different claim.
There a place in Tasmania that sells dried kelpmeal.
Buying unprocessed seaweed and soaking it yourself will give the results that many people in Korea experience for instance.
The effectiveness will be determined by the size of the molecules, they have to be smaller then the opening of the stomata or be able to move in through diffusion.
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Durian love rain but man i think they need some sunlight here, 3552mm or rain at my place last year and already 267mm for the new year so far, we havent had a day without recorded rainfall at my place since the 15th December nor has the sun come out. I think a good week of hot sunny weather would really kick them into gear but the forecast for the next 7 days is rain every day.......
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Any ideas on what the problem here is? I have two grafted durians which currently have leaf discoloration on lower branches. On one of the durians, the leaves were in contact with long grass which has now been cut back. The other has not had long grass in contact with the leaves. As mentioned by gone tropo, it has been very wet here recently which I think has contributed to this. Is it worth just cutting off lower branches?
(https://i.postimg.cc/RWYzkTGc/IMG-20230111-071810-resized.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWYzkTGc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RWhBpY1S/IMG-20230111-071848-resized.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWhBpY1S)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gnYd8jn6/IMG-20230111-071913-resized.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gnYd8jn6)
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I have had problems like that that eventually went away. I did cut off material. I think that overall the tree looks healthy but I would weed better and open up a little, yes remove the lower foliage.
Peter
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Fruit nerd i havent seen anything like that on my trees quite bizzare, your tree otherwise looks incredibly healthy especially in that second photo.
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Thanks Peter/gone tropo. Have cut off the effected branches. Might do a bit more pruning to improve airflow and will make sure I keep the grass and weeds under control.
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i was also thinking of doing some pruning on mine. watched a ton of videos about pruning durians on youtube and got a good idea on what you want but the trees were more advanced than mine. all the videos were in Indonesian or another SEA language so im not sure what they said while doing it but i was wondering if it would stress the tree out too much given that its only about 1.5m tall. its getting a ton of new shoots from the stem which some i want to keep to take over as a main leader but will it be ok if i prune the lower laterals and inner branches to improve airflow and not have them hanging on the ground
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Fruit nerd,
the new flush looks very pale IMO. IMOE there's not enough moisture or not enough energy in the soil. The tree does not look like it's in the best state but still ok. When they look like that here I add some amendments (you or a soil test would know best what will increase the energy in your soil). I also increase water or mulch unless the soil is saturated with water.
It looks like the plant have multiple leaders, it's good to leave only one to reduce chance of tree splitting later.
No need to keep branches under your hip cause when they reach maturity they will be hanging on the ground or close anyway. You also could cover the lowest branches in 5-10 years with soil and they could take root and anchor the tree. But you would have to keep the tree structure good so not to shade out the lowest anchor branches.
I'm gonna have a go with this.
I just keep removing lower branches as the tree grows larger since removing all under my hip might be to much pruning in one go if the tree is "small".
Ohip,
Yeah you can intervene and cut of lateral branches now or wait and let the tree abort them later. I don't know if it makes much difference since if you leave the branches they contribute to the total photosynthesis quota and if you remove them the other branches might get larger quicker since there is more space between laterals. So there's benefit to both but obviously in Thailand and Malaysian it's common to select the desired laterals and space them quite wide in the vertical plane early in the tree's life.
I wouldn't remove secondary laterals or side branches on any laterals cause you want that lateral to get fat as fast as possible so that it can hold fruit.
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Some great info there cassowary thanks for that.
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Where can you get durian seeds in the US?
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From Hawaii
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Ive been researching durian growing in Malaysia these days and I thought I would share something I’ve found some farms to be doing. Instead of planting the grafted durian tree they are planting seedlings, letting them grow for about a year then, using a form of side veneer grafting, fixing a scion tip to the seedling trunk. Once the graft takes they leave the rootstock there, slowly trimming it back over time.
The people who use this technique say the trees develop faster. Anyway, since some of us are having issues getting scion material this would give a way to get started and have the option to graft later.
Peter
(https://i.postimg.cc/py2KGtN2/45-CC20-AA-60-ED-4439-BF34-8-BE210-F38-D4-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/py2KGtN2)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PN2Y0Fh1/6413569-B-EA1-E-4-A35-B362-A4-CC96132840.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PN2Y0Fh1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tYJWbtCw/64-A431-A4-03-B3-4-C4-B-81-EB-F3134-AEC808-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYJWbtCw)
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i watched a bunch of those videos on youtube aswell. looks like it works really well and the best part is that if the graft fails you can just try again in another spot on the tree.
i was considering trying this on my seedling but i think a seedling may have better chances outside of the optimal range for durians so im going to leave it as is.
i dont think i managed to find any of the videos in english though and none have subtitles so there may be important information missing but after watching a dozen videos you can get a very good idea of what the process is.
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Enclosing the whole scion would help with dehydration in the field.
I still wounder what average success rate is?
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On a previous trip to Malaysia I went to a durian workshop in Kuala Kangsar that featured grafting. They recommended two types. The same cleft graft that I do and a version of what you see in my previous post but on a smaller rootstock in a pot.
On the side veneer type they wrapped the whole scion tip for two weeks then removed the top part, leaving the graft itself wrapped longer. It’s supposed to have a high success rate but it is simple to repeat straight away if it fails.
Peter
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It is definitely and interesting topic and I can see there's two distinct paths of grafting
Plants sold by Nurseries (small stock in pot)
Plants propagated on site (field graft)
If I wanted to graft I would definitely go with the field graft options that peter have offered.
There's so many benefits to growing a seedling in the soil and then trying to graft it onsite later.
I can't see a reason why there wouldn't be "grafting" services offered by people soon, they come to the farm and bring the scion with them for grafting onsite. This way someone can operate very lean and without the need for a nursery operation. Just need some basic tools and access to scion.
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Exactly that exists in CR but for improving a cacao plantation.
One thing to consider, and maybe this is another can of worms, is the potential advantage of cutting the taproot. It’s a common practice in SE Asia and I do that too.
With grafting in situ you have plenty of time. The tree is growing faster in the ground so the development is optimal and you can graft at anytime.
Peter
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I do want to try grafting onto an existing seedling tree and will probably plant a couple of trees for this. Probably doesn't hurt to double up on a couple of varieties.
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First durian of the season monthong seedling $60
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Nice :) I saw a couple of durians for sale this morning but $90 for 1 ($20/kg). I was tempted but will wait for prices to fall a bit.
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You must have been there before me most likely same ones. She had a 6kg plus one at $120 mine isn’t ripe yet and most likely all the segments are not full but unfortunately not many other options.
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Ha, yes, sounds like the same ones. They come from a small orchard down the road from my place. For some reason, there is quite a lot of durian grown on our street :)
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Looks like they harvested it too early. $120 for an unripe durian , that is damn near robbery
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That durian looks cut early. We really make the case here to follow the Malaysian practice of letting the durians fall naturally.
Peter
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Yeah that one looks really spiky and green so probobly dripped in the wind or was harvested early.
I don't know of anyone in AU that know how to determine when to Pick Monthong so that it will still ripen up. One probably have to count the days and also count the days of full sun because they mature way faster in full sun weather vs rainy overcast.
That looks like a monthong hybrid because the stem is quite long, and where it abscessed is the natural joint because can't see any joint on the stem itself. It got uneven pollination that's why only one section if filled properly.
Peace,
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Yeah that one looks really spiky and green so probobly dripped in the wind or was harvested early.
I don't know of anyone in AU that know how to determine when to Pick Monthong so that it will still ripen up. One probably have to count the days and also count the days of full sun because they mature way faster in full sun weather vs rainy overcast.
That looks like a monthong hybrid because the stem is quite long, and where it abscessed is the natural joint because can't see any joint on the stem itself. It got uneven pollination that's why only one section if filled properly.
Peace,
Cassowary i think you are spot on, i probably shouldnt have bought it but when you havent had durian for 12months times get desperate. Beggars cant be choosers, Still waiting for it to ripen......
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I'm with you Gone Tropo. Looking forward to getting stuck into some fresh durians. Saw a few tree-dropped durians this afternoon on a nearby property. Hopefully we'll see more supply soon.
Anyway, here's my P88 (D178). Been in the ground for 7 months, ~170 cm high. Do you think it's worth taking out some branches?
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZvZdxzgL/p88-pruning.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZvZdxzgL)
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It’s going to need shaping but I think you can let it grow another 6 months first. A photo that really shows the whole tree would be better.
It looks very healthy!
Peter
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Fruit nerd your P88 looks great nice healthy tree, mine has been in the ground 19months is also really healthy they really like it here.
I would be very cautious about pruning it especially topping it, a bit over 12months ago a storm broke off the top of my P88 so i cut it to make it a clean cut, anyway since then the tree has grown upside down, all the growth has gone to the top of the tree and the bottom of the tree is missing all the sap. All the top branches and laterals are nice and fat with lots of leaves which is not ideal you want the bottom part of the tree to have the thick laterals etc.
This is not the first time I have seen this, also some guys it hawaii noted similar when they topped their trees. In my case i didnt want to top it, it happened due to storm but im now very sceptical about topping my trees until they reach desired height.
Just my experience others may have found different
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Thanks both. I lwill eave it as is for now then. I won't be topping it for quite a while. I have a pruning pole now for should be able to let it get a decent height before topping. Had a jackfruit that was prematurely topped by a grass hopper, didn't care at all, ha.
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I think that pruning/shaping durian trees can be important but I like the idea of cutting as little as possible to avoid setbacks.
Still, at some point after a year it can be beneficial to clip the top just above the highest branch. That branch should become the new leader and at the same time encourage lower branch extension. Later we start to clean out the inner branches a bit as well, slowly.
What I am relating here was reinforced on my recent research in Malaysia.
Peter
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So Peter you haven’t found that when cutting the top branch that it encourages growth in the upper part of the tree not the lower? Mine grew a new leader but also put all its effort into the top of the tree it is now an upside down tree, I know some others in Hawaii have found this too very weird.
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So, there can be different shapes that would be acceptable. But what I am describing is a single leader shape with branches tending toward horizontal.
For that goal the first issue I note is that on the left side of the photo there is at least one branch that is too long, it’s competing with the leader. It doesn’t seem like a strong leader has emerged from the topping.
Some would trim those competing branches back, perhaps tie a weight to make them hang more horizontally. Maybe select a new branch for a leader if what’s there doesn’t have any energy. Trim some branchlets out of the middle to get more airflow and light throughout the tree.
Another possibility is to abandon the course of the single leader tree shape. In this case trim the branchlets and go for a multiple leader design, encouraging about 3 to 5 strong branches to come up at about 30 degrees or so. These branches should then put out more horizontal smaller branches where the fruits will be.
The tree looks healthy and I am not too sure about giving shaping advice like this based on a photo. As a pruner this is what comes to mind. Bear in mind that ten capable pruners could easily offer ten distinct solutions. These ideas are more to consider, perhaps with others while looking at the tree then any precise instructions on what to do.
Peter
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Thanks Peter that is some excellent advice, this particular variety D178 locally called P88 which is extremely popular here is a more difficult tree to manage than others. Mine and everyone else I know that has it grows extremely upright, compared to another local popular variety called PK which grows almost perfectly the branches all form nice horizontals and the tree naturally grows wider compared to upright.
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Did your durian ripen up okay in the end? I also ended up buying underripe fruit last year so trying to avoid that this year.
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I popped into my local Asian grocery here in Victoria, Australia and grabbed some Durian Candy. close smell and faint taste.
A few weeks back tried a Frozen Durian Soy Smoothie from the Bubble Tea Shop. Not a bad effort, nearly convinced.
That is how far I have fallen from my time in Cairns, ate a lot of Sunday and Monday unsold ripening Durians from a friend who sold them on the Friday and Saturday fruit market.
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Did your durian ripen up okay in the end? I also ended up buying underripe fruit last year so trying to avoid that this year.
Hey mate I prolly opened it a bit early cos I’m very impatient, some of it was ripe some not quite ripe. My daughter and I ate the whole thing. The segments that were nice and soft were excellent tasted just like kradumthong I had at Salleras farm. I’m pretty easy to please I just love the sweet durian taste. If I ever make it to maylasia and get to try the big guns like musang king and black thorn I will probably never return to Australia.
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Whenever a vigorous growing shoot is broken the auxin dominance is no longer there so there will be auxin dominance somehwere else.
So learning about auxin and how the shoot grows will help to make better decisions when it comes to pruning.
"Science in agriculture" by Arden Andersen is a great source.
"So your upside down tree" is due to the loss of the auxin dominant shoot. Atleast from what I know.
The top is now setback and it will take time before a new shoot comes out and starts being a sink again. So it might look like the lower part grows faster in contrast to the now stunted top shoot.
I only have Penang 88 seedlings and they grow like the others, i think the shape of the tree have more to do with soil, sun, shade. These are all zibethinus after all but even the graveolens, kutjensis, oxleyanus and hybrids have same or similar growth pattern to zibethinus, from my field observations i have deducted that the environment dictate the shape of durio more then the variety etc. However the vigour is different, graveolens is really vigorous compared to the others!
Potential root stock for anyone grafting durian.
Root's are in one way similar to shoots.
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Cassowary it’s the top half of my tree that grows vigorously the bottom half is stunted you had it back to front
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Peter...have you come across this guy's videos on Youtube? He's in Malaysia promoting durian growing. I've enjoy his videos and most, if not all, are subtitled in English. He does a good job explaining his reasons/actions and really speaks out on mound planting. https://www.youtube.com/@facultyofdurian9644/videos
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Hi Jay
I met that guy!
I didn’t know about the videos so I’ll be looking at those.
I have been grafting durian trees here in CR with a technique that is inspired by the post you made of the Thai nursery. I showed the photos of my work and the guy liked it a lot and wanted copies of the photos.
The mounds seem very high and not so wide. Seems to me they should be a tad lower and wider.
It was at a 300 acre farm in Pahang where we met.
Peter
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Wow! Small freaking world Peter! That is pretty wild. I enjoy his videos and I think what he says makes a lot of sense. We've chatted online a few times and he's in agreement with what one of our local durian experts had advised me to do here to get my trees going. Lots of work and time involved, but interesting. Only time will tell if it was worth it. That Thai nursery blog was a long time ago! Fun to do. I agree that many of the mounds didn't seem as wide as I would have thought, but they seem to be working. I think the higher they are, the less chance of the roots getting down into any water logged soil. I want to make mine high as possible, but it's going to take enough soil being brought in as it is. Then take away settling. I'll be happy if I can have two feet of height in the end. I probably cannot go as wide as I should/want either. We'll see. Should be quite the journey. I'm enjoying it though and it keeps me busy and sane here.
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The mounds are pretty high. What makes me nervous is that the branch tips easily extend past the edge of the mounds. So you’d assume that the roots are passing through an area that is quite wet since the water would be running down the sides of the mounds in a heavy downpour. That farm had areas with mounds, without mounds and planting on steep terracing. The oldest trees are about 4.5 years old. 300 acres of mostly Musang king.
I got to be there because I was with Lindsey and Richard.
Peter
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LOL!! I'm not at all surprised that Lindsay is acquainted with this dude! I do like the terracing and if you have the land and terrain for it, probably the way to go. I got my first two durians in Chanthaburi's Local Durian Education Center. They grow older varieties. I noticed that their trees are planted on raised rows with canals on either side.
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I think that Lindsay hadn’t met mr. Lim before but was well aware of him. We were touring a 300 acre farm and he happened to be there on a monthly consultation. We spent less than an hour sharing durian and talking with him and the farm owners family.
Most of the durians were planted as small grafted trees there. But what I saw in two other farms were seedlings that were being grafted at about one year old.
The thing about the terracing is that there isn’t any top soil left the way these guys works. They load up a large hole with medium and plant but it seems that it is if the tree is in a large pot.
Interestingly, that farm combines a lot of natural practices. They don’t use herbicide and they apply EM as part of their routine.
Peter
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Tropo - you can get musang king in Australia. In Townsville they only have the frozen flesh but sydney you can get whole frozen. It’s pretty pricy compared to frozen mon thong but its taste is so much better it’s worth paying the extra. Most Asian supermarkets have the frozen flesh and cairns have a big SEA population I’d be suprised if they didn’t have whole frozen aswell.
I know opening a fresh durian is half the fun but in the off season you have to make do. I don’t find there’s any loss of quality at all.
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Isn’t Malaysia like a 3 hour flight for you aussies anyway? Good god, just go already
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It’s more than 30 hours for me but totally worth it. I’ve been 3 times in less than 5 years. There’s no substitute!
Peter
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Isn’t Malaysia like a 3 hour flight for you aussies anyway? Good god, just go already
Yeh mate I’ve just gotta convince the wife of some other reason to go there other than durians….. she has no idea why I’m so interested in going to Malaysia lol
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Aside from fruit, best food in the world. That goes especially for Penang. Their durian trees are starting to show flowering now. They’re expecting a very good season around May/early June.
Peter
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So I’ve been trying to learn more and more about how they grow durian in Malaysia. This quest has led me to a lot of farms on the peninsula and Borneo. Part of that routine is to inquire about what fertilizers, amendments, agro chemicals they apply.
Of course this is a big discussion and there’s still a lot that I don’t know. But I was impressed with how much natural strategies are being incorporated. I’m seeing less herbicide use and none of the farms seemed to be using systemic fungicides. What I have heard is that in Thailand the use of aliete, an aluminum based systemic fungicide, is very common on durian farms.
I’m wondering Jay, if you or anyone else know much about specific application practices in Thailand.
Peter
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Peter...I will reach out to a friend of the family who has a huge durian farm and ask him. I know that the Faculty of Durian dude has some videos covering this, but I haven't paid much attention to these vids yet. Here is an article from Lindsay: https://www.yearofthedurian.com/2020/03/thailand-durian-pesticides-explained.html
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Yeah Jay, ask around. I’ve seen Lindsay’s article and talked to her about it. I’ve looked at lots of Mr. Lim’s videos and spoken with the owner of a large farm that Lim is the consultant on. They are combining many natural practices with some conventional fertilizers and pesticides when needed. But it seems to me that they are not using systemic pesticides. I’ve looked in lots of sheds at Malaysian farms and it’s not that bad.
But I’d like to know about Thailand which is the largest producer and has many practices that are different from Malaysia.
Peter
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So an update I had 3552mm of rain last year and already 1186mm of rain this year, Im on heavy clay soil and can confirm this is too much rain they are starting to show rotten growth coming out on some of them and I can just tell they aren't that happy at the moment. My durians are on small mounds but its not enough to combat the huge saturation the soil here gets I can see why they plant them on steep hills in malaysia.
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We can get that much rain. Penang gets less but some parts of Malaysia get that and have good production. The videos that Jay and I have been talking about show the durians planted on steep mounds if they are on the flat. The guy also sometimes makes ditches for drainage. We are planting on hills now but have good trees where the ground gets pretty wet and water can stand in depressions. I cringe when I see that but, we’re still in business.
Peter
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Maybe start grafting onto wild durians instead or using them to multiple rootstock graft onto your current tree?? The wild durians are supposed to handle wet feet much better than the normal varieites. Gone Tropo...if your trees are not real big, any chance that they can be removed and build up your mounds??
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I think they will be fine they just aren’t as happy as I’ve seen them, I think if the rain ever stops and dries out a bit they will be happy again.
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Peter...I found this on Youtube. It clearly shows them using a systemic fungicide, but unfortunately no subtitles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1a9pDi6TdI&t=196s
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I think they will be fine they just aren’t as happy as I’ve seen them, I think if the rain ever stops and dries out a bit they will be happy again.
We could be picking up another couple hundred mm in the next few days unfortunately. I have started planting durian onto small mounds made from composted wood chips, crusher dust and top soil. Have also planted avocados in the same way. Will see how it goes.
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Jay, that’s a strange video. Yes, I hear the guy say systemic fungicide but the application is more like a contact treatment of an obvious infestation.
What concerns me more would be a program systemic application which would be directed at the foliage and the fruit would always, in that case, loaded with fungicide.
Tropo I feel for you…
Funny thing is that when it’s dry in Oz and fires are the problem it’s raining like crazy in my neck of the woods. The last year has been very dry here. Not that good for planting but great for fruit production. We’re eating durian now!
Peter
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Forecast for next few days is falls up to 700mm here, i just lost an E4 abiu to wet feet about 6ft high an 18months old. Lessons learnt abiu are not flood or wet feet tolerant at all this is not the first abiu tree i have lost to flooding and wet feet. Luckily my abiu in drier parts are doing very well.
Durian are gunna have to hang in there for another huge wet hit by the looks, relentless rain
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I watched one other video where they were pouring a mixture into to the soil around the tree out to the drip line. It was disturbing to see insects, including worms, down in the soil, claw their way out only to die. Whatever they were pouring on was some hot shit of a mix! It's too bad more aren't subtitled.
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Go on a google earth tour of SEA and every man and his dog is starting a durian farm. Sometimes I think that when you’re in the optimal range you could just throw a durian by the side of the rod and it’ll grow just just fine.
In better news everywhere that my durian lost leaves it pushed through new flushes. The new leader is just about to overtake as the plants heights point within a month. Next winter will be the real teller if they will survive or not
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(https://i.postimg.cc/9rGGfq6j/85774-B93-5-FFB-40-DB-A3-A4-754-CFDBE79-ED.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rGGfq6j)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rR45xdzx/DF386-E17-6954-4-FAE-9-C21-A44-FA6-B2-DE24.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rR45xdzx)
Photo of the one successful graft onto a side branch of my shitty durian that I cut down. We tried grafting onto side shoots as that was most akin to what we were used to.
The right side of the photo shows multiple failed ones.
The one that took was a Peter Knudsen.
The old umbrella and shade cloth are to keep the afternoon sun and heaviest rain off it.
So far so good ….. hoping once it’s properly established it should grow like a rocket!
I’ll wait until it’s much much bigger before taking the trunk above it off.
Trina ( lady who grafted it) suggested to keep the new shoots mostly cut to encourage growth of the scion.
It was putting out a cm every few days but has slowed a bit in last couple of weeks
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Beautiful little ganyao durian this one was only 1kg I chose the smallest one and perfectly ripe had more edible flesh than the 3.4kg partially ripe monthong I had the other day. Gunna grow a seedling from this one.
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Nice, I think Ganyao has a much better reputation than mongthong. I have a grafted tree that is from a seedling of Ganyao. The seedling came very good so I imagine yours will as well.
Peter
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Nice, I think Ganyao has a much better reputation than mongthong. I have a grafted tree that is from a seedling of Ganyao. The seedling came very good so I imagine yours will as well.
Peter
Great to hear Peter, I actually have a grafted ganyao in the ground already that grows at snails pace probably be 40 years before that one fruits. I’m not afraid to have a go with seedlings I have several seedling trees. My mate has several monthong seedling trees that seem to be growing very very well.
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I have a gan yao seedling from last season which I planted in Nov. Also have a grafted gan yao which I planted in Dec. The grafted tree has grown ~10cm and seems to be established now.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/zVzP9FfZ/550-FD128-AC61-4-B64-9-D2-C-4-B54834-D4-C91.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zVzP9FfZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/s19N6Ns4/6-E9-FF753-2-F42-43-E4-A86-F-FCCF744-DC051.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/s19N6Ns4)
Beautiful little ganyao durian this one was only 1kg I chose the smallest one and perfectly ripe had more edible flesh than the 3.4kg partially ripe monthong I had the other day. Gunna grow a seedling from this one.
IMO that is NOT a Kan yao durian fruit,
Have eaten a lot of them in Thailand because spent months there over many years.
It's actually quite far off from a Kan yao. Stalk to short (it's not as long as images on internet because that is picked fruit), flesh has wrong color (should be yellow), the aril looks like it has more monthong consistency (non smooth, stringy) then Kan yao (smooth), monthong and Kan yao is polar opposite when it comes to aril consistency.
Sorry not trying to be mean but someone gotta be the durian police :/
I know of 3 farms in FNQ that supposedly have Kan Yao but none of their fruits are Kan Yao IMO.
Naming a fruit Kan Yao gives premium price so there's incentive for "shady" business.
Tropical fruit hunters,
Yeah true especially graveolens, but good durian stock from borneo are also very tollerant to rot root and flooding.
Systemic pesticides are mainstay these days.
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Cassowary Im certainly no expert on ganyao sounds like you have a lot more experience with it. This however was not bought at local markets or unknown persons it is from a family i know who are very knowledgeable on tropical fruits. A few generations back they were a part of the original group of people in the 70's and 80's who bought grafted trees back to australia from thailand So i dont really know what to think of this.
I do agree with you though i dont understand why the flesh is not bright yellow, i do wonder however if that is to do with our soils here? I have yet to see any durian in Australia that show the bright yellow colouration of those in thailand and malaysia? The grafted kradomthong i had at fruit forest farm also didnt have the bright yellow i see from thailand photos and videos ??
Has anyone else here in Australia noticed this also ? Maybe we get too much rain at the wrong time of the year that washes the colour down is this possible? Maybe our soils are deficient in something that makes them “yellow up” I also notice a lot of durians here get a "golden yellow" outside shell colour maybe from too intense sun? Most of the ones i see on videos in malyasia and thailand appear quite brown on the outside when ripe sometimes green?
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Cassowary, that systemic pesticides are widely used in Thailand doesn’t surprise me but it’s not what I found in Malaysia. What systemic pesticides are you referring to?
On major farms I saw the use of EM and biological control products like baccilus thurgensis. I don’t think those are compatible with conventional pesticides.
Some places you see herbicides and they’re probably using nematacides as well. But I listened to farmers trash talking herbicides and talking about the necessity of living soil with lots of worms. Control of erosion is also a concern.
Peter
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I understand that varieties have commonly been mislabeled/misidentified in Australia. Then add the fact the people will grow seedlings from clones and will refer to them as monthong or gan yao for example. Gets complicate very quickly. The durian posted by Gone tropo certainly had a long stem (compare to other durians) and the size and shape looks right to me. Agree though about the flesh colour. Regarding colour, this is from a durian last season. Nice colour I think -
(https://i.postimg.cc/XZhH1yZF/monthong.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZhH1yZF)
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Cassowary, that systemic pesticides are widely used in Thailand doesn’t surprise me but it’s not what I found in Malaysia. What systemic pesticides are you referring to?
On major farms I saw the use of EM and biological control products like baccilus thurgensis. I don’t think those are compatible with conventional pesticides.
Some places you see herbicides and they’re probably using nematacides as well. But I listened to farmers trash talking herbicides and talking about the necessity of living soil with lots of worms. Control of erosion is also a concern.
Peter
Hi Peter,
In Malaysia where the tree's are sometimes large it wouldn't work very well with a foliar application so I doubt they use it in those situations as a foliar application. It would be applied by injection into the stem, it goes into the sap and becomes systemic.
IMO "Mono crop" orchards with musang king would likely have this in their schedule to protect from herbivores and also steam borers.
I can not name a particular active substance as it depends on what they are trying to kill and I don't use it myself and there would be different products available over there from here.
I have not been in Malaysia, but have seen many youtube videos. You would know better what they do in Malaysia then me.
I know of one farmer in AU with durian tree's that uses systemic insecticide to reduce fruit spotting bug so that the young fruits don't drop of when being pierced by this insect. At least 4 different types of systemic is available on the shelf at local hardware store here. Of course the most effective Byer stuff is not as far as I know.
I would guess that BT would not be affected by systemic insecticides because BT has different cell membranes. Bacteria are quite different from insects. Eg. Phytophra is an algae and have cellulose cell walls while some have Chitin based cell walls.
Yep fruit nerd, that looks like a mon thong to me. And that looks like a good one too :D
I am certain that the real mon thong is in AU, the one I have tasted that was labeld as mon thong was the same as the ones in Thailand :D
Peace
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Bought some more durian today. This fruit was sold as ganyao and was excellent with nice yellow flesh and strong flavour.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wt9YtNzq/ganyao-20230223.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wt9YtNzq)
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Bought some more durian today. This fruit was sold as ganyao and was excellent with nice yellow flesh and strong flavour.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wt9YtNzq/ganyao-20230223.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wt9YtNzq)
That looks sensational mate well done
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The durian police is out again ;)
Flesh too pale and thorns on husk to wide.
I'v eaten at least 30 Kan Yao in Thailand.
I wasn't able to find images because it's on a hard drive somewhere.
Here's some images that gives a fair representation of Kan Yao IMO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJtKEZZWEXE
Yeah they are that Yellow IRL.
I have a hard time to accept that our local soil, environment and practices would affect a cultivar that much.
That still looks like a great durian to me!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1a9pDi6TdI&t=196s
Yeah that's a systemic fungicide.
Apparently used in AU too.
Difenoconazole
https://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/ppdb/en/Reports/230.htm
"Mode of action
Systemic with preventative and curative action. Disrupts membrane function - inhibition of demethylation during ergosterol synthesis."
"persistent in soil and in the aquatic environment"
This one is broad spectrum so would also harm beneficial fungi. Feels like the wrong way to go.
Peace
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cassowary, what ever it was, it was certainly a good one :)
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We are having durian right now as well, D-99. This is earlier than normal but, welcome of course!
Peter
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We are having durian right now as well, D-99. This is earlier than normal but, welcome of course!
Peter
Finca,
Have you seen any difference if fruit characteristics from cloned tree's that you are certain are the cultivar?
Or are the fruits pretty much identical to the clones description on average?
Would be good with some more input on how the environment could potentially affect the fruit outcome from a clone.
Peace
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We are having durian right now as well, D-99. This is earlier than normal but, welcome of course!
Peter
Finca,
Have you seen any difference if fruit characteristics from cloned tree's that you are certain are the cultivar?
Or are the fruits pretty much identical to the clones description on average?
Would be good with some more input on how the environment could potentially affect the fruit outcome from a clone.
Peace
I would be interested to hear Peters comments on this as well considering he is in Costa rica. I know Oscar from hawaii who used to post on this forum and in this thread in the early parts said that he planted roughly 50/50 seedling and grafted trees and that his seedling trees mostly produced the better fruit there from his orchard.
He also said that other growers he knew in hawaii who had grown ganyao clones there were pulling out the trees as the fruits were junk and not comparable to thailand....One can only assume climate and soils were having an affect. There is a good website from a guy in hawaii called mike parker called something like empi fruits or something its one of the best sites re durian information outside SE Asia which is applicable to most people participating in this thread.
He talks a bit about how certain clones perform in hawaii both good and bad and gives some good general information. One thing that stood out to me was that they were finding large durian like monthong and Gumpun showing uneven ripening and this has been reported by many over there. They are focusing on the smaller fruits for this reason as they dont have that problem.
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This is a very interesting subject.
First off it seems that Thai varieties grown in Malaysia can be different from those in Thailand.
Mongthong can have problems of uneven ripening in Thailand.
All this according to Lindsay.
We are barely getting started here. The D-99 we grow can be terrific, but not always. Fruits from the same tree can vary. We have had very good Chanee off a young tree here. There is mongthong and musang king in production in CR but only within the last 3-5 years!
One of these areas is marginally suitable with very dry winds. Another has its harvest during the rainy season which doesn’t help quality. In Costa Rica most durian planting occurs on the Caribbean coast where we are or near the Pacific coast in the southern section. The country is small but the climate varies considerably from one region to another.
There are some good seedlings and we are working hard on seedlings to develop our own varieties. But nobody is pulling out Asian selections. Lots of seedlings were distributed by an NGO in the 80’s. Only a few of those would be worth grafting. Most tree buyers desire the Asian varieties so far.
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Peter you comments match what some of the generational durian growers i have spoken too have said here. In particular quality decline with wet season. Unfortunately, our durian season is in our wet season and when we have a massive wet season like we are having now quality declines, this is what I have been told by growers here with 40 year old trees. So the quality from the same trees is not the same year to year depending on weather.
I have seen it said a few times that it is easier to add water than it is to stop water, i personally think the drier areas along the coast here could be more suitable for durian quality than where they are mostly grown now. Areas around cairns and then further north in the Bloomfield area that average 2000mm a year that could have supplemental irrigation in the dry season would be better off than the areas that average 3000-4000mm+ a year.
Lindsay has mentioned this before about malaysia and how the wet areas of malaysia with 4000mm a year average like taiping are not known durian growing areas and dont produce durian of the same quality as penang with a much drier climate.
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Yeah, there are a few trade offs. Penang gets about 2500mm a year but since it has distinct dry and wet seasons they only get one harvest whereas if you have two short dry seasons you can get two fruit seasons like in Pahang where I was a month ago. Parts of Pahang get higher rainfall.
It’s commonly believed that Black Thorn doesn’t do well in the conditions of Pahang but is great for Penang. In Pahang they are quite pleased with Musang King so it seems that you need to match the variety with the location.
There could be lots of factors involved besides rainfall patterns to get the most successful match. It’s tricky. I think that this is where planting seedlings comes in. Ideally we will find new varieties especially suited to our conditions. More Malaysians are now mounding in rainy areas and getting good results.
Still, we are planting Malaysian selections since the quality is so good. It’s a learning process, mostly lots of fun but tempered with some disappointment as we advance along.
Peter
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Eating from same tree's for 5 years I can tell there is a different in characteristics from year to year in some types, not all.
Even if the fruits fall to ground naturally and ripen up, not aborted or diseased etc.
Now a big consideration. Does a cultivar specify a specific fruit quality (customer in mind) or a specific genetic quality (farmer in mind).
In one scenario it wouldn't be fair for me as a consumer to call "fake" on some ones Kan Yao fruit from a cloned tree. Or is it still fair since I the customer are focusing on the fruit quality (I want Kan Yao!).
I feel like the customer has the last say, since I myself wouldn't be to happy If I go to the supermarket to buy Royal Gala but they look like Granny smith because they didn't get color for some reason (but still from Royal gala cloned tree).
Maybe we will never get Kan Yao in Australia haha
Or maybe new practice's and new growing areas have to be explored as Tropo said to get the clone to put out Kan Yao quality fruit.
Also in Thailand they have competitions/auctions where they compete within the same clone category, so different soil and ag practices have effect even in Thailand.
If you google you will find mostly auctions that is more for PR then real but I have seen articles of legit high prices for specific durian fruit quality.
Maybe in the future we could take a photo of the highest quality fruit we have at the farm and people on the app can bid on it and get it air shipped inside a cooler.
Peace
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(https://i.postimg.cc/BXvT8Dkf/EC8014-BD-CBF3-4-E97-8948-7-BD66042-BEAC.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXvT8Dkf)
Ultimately it has to be what’s best for the consumer. I am the president of our farmers market and there is a tendency of some to favor the vendors but we need, above all, consumer satisfaction. In Australia if your customers are happy it doesn’t matter what’s happening in Thailand.
The photo is of prices at a stand in Penang last month. You can see that there are different qualities of Bkack thorn and musang king. There are at least 3 grades or qualities determined for the same durian varieties. Incidentally, these prices are about double what I saw in the production zones.
Peter
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Never understood the grading of fruit. In my opinion and experience, it rarely, if ever, truly applies to the quality of the fruit. All visual. Most of the world is conditioned to want perfect looking fruit and vegetables. I've had mangosteens covered in gamboge that were stunning and tasty as any could be. On the flip side, I've had many of the beautiful, high grade fruit that were a complete mess inside. I'm sure there's more to this, but I'm also betting most of people are more palate-challenged than not, and would probably never distinguish the difference. So bring on the uglies! I'll take a low grade, tree-dropped, properly ripened, durian any time. I'll spend less and enjoy more.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/2qWg0CGd/8-C3-F64-B4-356-F-435-B-A59-B-5-E34-A5-FC4369.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2qWg0CGd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DW4x75b7/D2-F34-EA4-6874-48-CB-9991-06237-EC531-F2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DW4x75b7)
I agree with that.
Here you can see a few opened kampung durians in Pahang. Many times I’ve seen Lindsay sort through piles of low priced durians and extract something very tasty.
At the stand you see black thorn at $US12kg and Kampung $1.50kg!
Peter
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A weird or ugly looking durian, discoloration of the skin etc usually indicates a bad durian from my experience. A good durian will be glowing sort of speak when they are really prime. Skin color etc can definitely indicate whether or not it’s past it’s prime. If a durian is being sold as low grade anywhere in Malaysia you better bet most of them are low grade. Of course a vendor would never sell you something saying it’s low grade, they are trying to make a sale. Kampongs can be very good but again you’d want to pick one that has a nice look to it. The best durians I’ve eaten also have a nice look to the exterior so I would not say that outer appearance doesn’t matter, with durian, it most certainly matters.
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Thanks for sharing that price list Peter, interesting.
It matters if the customer have eaten Kan Yao in Thailand. If not then they don't know I guess.
Those Kampung would have gone for $30kg here! Looks great!
I believe a higher grade gives the seller more responsibility to replace a bad durian, while if you buy the lowest grade then your less likely to get a replacement without a nasty look.
Yeah looks matter but, smell, sound and heaviness matters too. That's why eating from the same source can help getting better durian since you learn what indicates awesomeness. But sometimes I let the seller choose, sometimes a bit of humility pays off!
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Two months into the year and already 1910mm of rain at my place!!! And 1225mm of rain for February alone. The monsoon is showing no signs of letting go any time soon with return to heavy rain this weekend. We have two days of forecast “partly cloudy” coming up so we better enjoy it as that’s as close as we’re gunna get to sun for now.
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I had a visit from a pair of scrub fowls yesterday. Look at the mess they made. Positive is I got a good look at the root development :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DmdmZh4t/gan-yao-vs-scrub-fowl.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DmdmZh4t)
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Mick those things are a menace here as well I have had them dig a baby durian out of the ground. Dog now sorts them out
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Durian kampung as well as some wils species grow and sometimes fruit in Borne mountains over 1200 m. The climate there is pretty rough and temperatures can stay around 11C for extended periods. Durians from there should do ok in subtropical areas like Macaronesia or maybe even Florida. Im thinking about the moist northern slopes of the Canary islands. Of course the PH needs to be lowered but this is being done for other crops there
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Gave my oldest durian a prune the other day. Its been in the ground ~1.5 years and is ~3m tall. Had a fairly dominant branch that was growing at a steep angle that was pruned off to favour more horizontal lateral branches. Any pointers on how to shape this tree?
(https://i.postimg.cc/sBdVLC39/Durian-seedling-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sBdVLC39)
(https://i.postimg.cc/14J33dKs/Durian-seedling-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14J33dKs)
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Your tree looks healthy. I’m not too sure if seedlings should be pruned the same as grafted trees. But what some would say is that looking at that tree you see an area near the top without many branches. Almost halfway down you get to an area where there is strong branching. You might select the top one of those branches to be the new leader by cutting off everything above it at an angle just above where that branch connects to the main stem.
I know that sounds radical and the tree doesn’t look like it needs any drastic remedy. You could just leave it and keep doing what you are doing to promote lateral branches.
However, selecting a new leader should force the lower branches to spread wider.
I’d be interested to hear what others suggest. Often, very competent pruners will have different approaches to working the same tree.
Peter
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I’ll be honest. Durian is my favorite fruit or at least top 5. This speaks volumes as I’ve had a lot of fruits lol. If you don’t like it it’s most likely cause you haven’t had a good one. Just don’t buy monthong frozen. Musang king frozen is 4-5 times expensive. Why? Because it’s good. Unfortunately I can’t grow it here along with 95% of the forum. But if you live in HI or PR I recommend getting a lot of trees. I wish we could import fresh ones somehow.
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Fresh durian will eventually be shipped to the US from Mexico and/or Central America. There are projects underway.
Peter
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Your tree looks healthy. I’m not too sure if seedlings should be pruned the same as grafted trees. But what some would say is that looking at that tree you see an area near the top without many branches. Almost halfway down you get to an area where there is strong branching. You might select the top one of those branches to be the new leader by cutting off everything above it at an angle just above where that branch connects to the main stem.
I know that sounds radical and the tree doesn’t look like it needs any drastic remedy. You could just leave it and keep doing what you are doing to promote lateral branches.
However, selecting a new leader should force the lower branches to spread wider.
I’d be interested to hear what others suggest. Often, very competent pruners will have different approaches to working the same tree.
Peter
Thanks Peter. Cutting the top of does scare me a bit, though beefing up the laterals sounds good. Might see how the tree responds to this initial prune first.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/gXTZycfD/CC0-AD0-B8-F5-D3-4830-B688-320-A1-B51-DD67.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gXTZycfD)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/yDskZSDK/804397-CE-FFDC-47-A7-BF8-F-CD3-D5260940-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yDskZSDK)
I have been having some trouble posting images. But anyway you can see here what I am trying to do in shaping the young durian trees. Once you select a new leader and make your cut right above it then that branch starts to turn up and take over. At the same time the lower branches extend more.
Peter
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Durian kampung as well as some wils species grow and sometimes fruit in Borne mountains over 1200 m. The climate there is pretty rough and temperatures can stay around 11C for extended periods. Durians from there should do ok in subtropical areas like Macaronesia or maybe even Florida. Im thinking about the moist northern slopes of the Canary islands. Of course the PH needs to be lowered but this is being done for other crops there
Thanks for that info all the fruit!
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Hey Peter...came across this guy's videos the other day. He's here in Thailand growing. Interesting method for planting and certainly cannot dispute the results.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH-8DPJkkPg
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Thank Peter for showing the approach to pruning. Looking forward to learning more about pruning as my trees get bigger.
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Jay, that’s an interesting video. We have a somewhat similar approach. No NPK, I’m wondering about what the guy put that must have been like a bokashi.
That’s a lot of cow manure which brings up a question. While recently traveling with Lindsay on the Malay peninsula there was talk about it being difficult to get cow manure. Then it struck me that driving around Latin America you see a lot of cattle pasture. You don’t see pastures in Malaysia! How about in Thailand, would it be easy to find cow manure in quantity?
Anyway, we ran into large planters who get the concept that the living soil is critical which is very positive and also what I got from the video.
Peter
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Are you worried about selective herbicides in cow manure? In some parts of the world, they are quite widely used in pastures. I know vegetable gardeners have big issues with this.
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I never thought of that…
I’ve never heard of any problems but that’s interesting. We use a combination of chicken manure and cow manure mostly for top dressing fruit trees but I use the same mix in my potting medium. In the past I’ve blamed problems on incomplete composting of the chicken manure but…
I’m going to consider my sources. Many thanks.
Peter
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I was told to only use cow manure. The rest will have chemicals. Cow manure is readily available.
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Here is another good video from this guy. Wonder if he's consulted with the Faculty of Durian guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5he5TazIqmM
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They may be fresh when they are picked/dropped , but I bet they will arrive like all the other fruit picked & shipped from foreign, dogshit.
Buying Lindsay’s frozen is the closest we can get to a “fresh “ Durian in the 48.
Or flying to visit you or Hawaii.
Fresh durian will eventually be shipped to the US from Mexico and/or Central America. There are projects underway.
Peter
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William Whitman’s son, Chris, is behind a project of some 1000 durian trees in Limon. The flight is very short and they already ship longan around the US from their farms in Homestead so the know what they are doing with shipping fresh fruit. Durians are shipped around Malaysia and it can take a similar amount of time. Obviously it’s best at the farm but…
Peter
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Jay, interesting video.
The other videos I’ve seen with this guy have to do with Thailand but this made lots of reference to Malaysia. He never mentioned having most of the trees in pairs. That’s very unusual for a large farm.
I subscribe to much of what he says but we eventually let the trees get taller. Both he and Lim give the reason for short trees as the cost of labor. Lim explains that he wants to be able to spray the tree and hand pollinate as well as tie the fruits in the tree. Lots of labor for sure.
The way everything is so mono cropped in Malaysia they are having trouble getting sufficient bat pollination. We’re not too interested in tying the durians and we do t spray.
We figure we get more fruit, not less, by getting taller trees.
Peter
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Agree. I think one of the biggest reasons for shorter trees is the ease of maintenance...spraying ferts/insecticides. Lim says the doubling up of trees was sort of insurance in case one dies or is not keeping up. I planted two Monthong that were gifted to me in the same hole. If both do well, I will most likely graft them together into one tree. Regardless, this dude in Thailand sure showing good results. And in such a short time frame.
I will be keeping mine here in the yard closer together and shorter, but mainly for space issues. I'm also hoping my multiple rootstock grafting produces good results as well. I will say, early analysis shows that the one tree where all rootstocks succeeded quickly outpaced the tree where two of the rootstocks failed. Hopefully they continue to "giddy-up"!
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Manure should be fine once it's well composted (even herbicides compost). For me where I live it is more affordable with fresh tree loppers mulch and composted tree loppers mulch. Easy to buy by the tonne, manure not so easy to by by the tonne and I also can't stand working with that shit, not good to breath in the dust and can't buy it composted here either.
Wow good to hear Whitmans son is going for it!
Monocrop owners could to alley cropping with native palms and syzygiums for the bats, the palms flower all around the year so keeps a feed for them so that they stick around. But with cheap human slaves/workers, natures original workers get pushed out.
Peace
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Real good idea, Casowary, to plant palms for bats.
Peter
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I have posted two photos of my P88. One the first photo, there are two branches growing from near the base on either side that are growing well. My feeling is that I should keep them. Will they be able to bear fruit? On the second photo, there is a lateral branch on the left hand side that is growing almost vertically. My feeling is I should cut it out. What is your opinion?
(https://i.postimg.cc/685ywXc4/P88-SE.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/685ywXc4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xqMk3gq8/P88-SW.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xqMk3gq8)
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Nice looking trees.
First pic: Are those branches above the graft? If below, definitely cut. I think rule-of-thumb is first branch 21"-30" up...or there abouts.
Second pic: That vertical branch looks like a nice and thick. The one below looks mighty thin and doesn't look to be another above that one oriented in that direction for quite a ways. Could try putting some anchors in the ground and pulling/training the branch to be more horizontal.
Just my two cents.
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The trees look to be growing nicely.
In the second photo I would definitely remove that branch. It wants to take over and the whole shape will get complicated.
The other tree needs more thought, assuming that the branches are all above the graft. Eventually I would remove them but their foliage is supporting a healthy development right now. I might cut them back a foot or so.
Personally, I would top both of these trees. I think that makes the branches thicker and encourages a better shape.
Peter
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Thanks TropicalFruitHunters and Peter. The branches are all growing above the graft. Just to be clear, it's the same tree but from different angles.
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Slowly working on shaping my durian trees. Here is a PK durian. It has a branch (second branch from the left) which is competing with the main leader. This branch also has a lateral crossing with another branch. My feeling is I should cut the branch second from the left out. Pains me since it does have some nice lateral branches. It's never going to get easier so I'll do it this week if it's a good idea. What are people's opinions?
(https://i.postimg.cc/hXGkDthY/IMG-20230330-164436.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hXGkDthY)
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Every situation is unique to some degree. For the long term, all those three branches are too low if you are striving for a shape with a central leader with horizontal branches. So if you agree with that then keep it in mind while shaping this tree although that would come later since you want to maintain lots of foliage to keep the tree developing as quickly as possible.
So you could remove that branch or you could cut it back just above where it might have a branch that is growing more laterally. This is not always a perfect solution but it could be a good experience to note how it responds.
Peter
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Thanks Peter. Maybe I should have pruned of the competing branch months ago. As you say, it's a learning experience for me. Regarding the 2 lower branches, I know they are quite low but since they are growing at a 45 degree angle, I would have thought they would still be able to hold fruit. Is the problem that they will interfere with horizontal branches coming from the central leader?
Also, regarding topping of the tree below, how far down from the central tip would you cut? I did end up topping the seedling tree I posted a couple of weeks ago. Yesterday, I also tied down some of the lower branches to try to develop more horizontal growth. Quite happy with the shape of that tree now.
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Regarding the topping of the tree you want to cut just above a branch likely to be a strong replacement leader. There looks to be one about 2’ down but it’s hard to say from here. Maybe you could cut off less but don’t pick a weak or dormant looking branch to be the highest remaining branch. Make sure you eliminate the branch growing up at 45 before you top the tree as that one will want to take over.
So the thing is with the very low branches the fruits might be on the ground if the flowers get pollinated. They might not get air circulation, etc. leave them for now just to provide more photo synthesis at this point.
Peter
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Thanks for the information Peter. Here is a photo of my oldest seedling tree. I did end up topping it and I have tied down some of the lower branches to promote more horizontal growth. Quite happy with this tree now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8sVkKNph/After-topping.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8sVkKNph)
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does anyone know if wrapping the trunk with newspaper in winter will help protect young trees? is this method just used to protect from frost or does it also work with less than optimal temperatures. We only get a few days of the year below 10 degrees and around 7 degrees lowest usually. the 1 coldest ever temperature was 1 degree in 1984 and its been 19 years since the temp hit 5 degrees. it survived fine but i just want to protect it incase it gets colder.
its in a shade tent with 70% shade cloth over it. will this be sufficient to protect it or should i invest in some plastic sheet to cover it with for the colder nights. also if i do use newspaper to protect the trunk do you need to remove it each day or just leave it on?
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Looks good fruit nerd!
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Interesting reading the pruning discussions recently - plan to prune my newer grafts differently. I found this you tube video that discusses pruning the laterals to end up with more horizontal laterals. I have generally tied mine and pulled them down. This guy does it differently
The language isn’t English but it’s pretty self explanatory
https://youtu.be/L1HUxyxkoYc
Anybody do this ?
Cheers
Jim
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Fruit nerd,
As the tree grows it will automatically terminate some of the lateral branches because they are quite close to each other in the vertical plane.
Tree's do this throughout their life.
So eventually (aprox 20 years) you will have more like 60cm-1m in the vertical plane between laterals (this is dependent of total sun exposure, surrounding tree's etc.). I let the tree terminate laterals itself since the extra leaf area (from small laterals) promotes to thicken the tree girth (while alive) which will make a strong trunk and usually contributes to faster fruiting. It's important to maximize photosynthesis, farmers are photosynthesis managers in one way. Cutting of leaf's reduces photo syn.
It's true that pruning laterals often gives more girth to the remaining laterals since they get more sun exposure but this can cause very vigorous laterals, not to good in windy areas. The girth of laterals and the main trunk should not be similar to each other.
Jim,
In that video he basically takes of laterals that have grown to vigorous in the vertical plane. it would be better to weight them down as you suggest or simply just wait for the pull of the earth to take them closer to ground, fruit load will help that too. Pruning like that will lead to a loot of shoot growth and you just set yourself up for a lot of future pruning. Those laterals should have been corrected earlier when they where younger.
ohip,
Leave the paper on, no worries.
You could even put paper and mound up arborist mulch around the trunk, it will keep it really comfy.
Don't worry about fungus, it won't damage the trunk in normal circumstances. Just take it of when the newspaper is not keeping a barrier between the trunk and the woodchips.
But I doubt this method will work long term.
Placing some black rocks around the tree will increase night time temp around roots and air and if you put a little pond in front of the sun exposure you will have good reflection during the day to increase canopy temp. the pond will also moderate the temp of the air passing through.
A little wind break on the S-SW side would help to reduce wind but not reduce sun to much since it's moving past N.
Cold winds are a main issue.
I have issue here with hot winds so plant gingers on S-SW side (S face). And keeping the N face open to maximum sun exposure. That's when plants are small. When they are big there is usually a inga or other fabace on the S face. On really young durian I have to plant shade on the N face to reduce burning but this get's cut out eventually.
Start measuring brix of your leaf's and try to increase it, it will increase the freezing point of the sap.
If you use plastic you will likely reduce brix levels of the sap since the suns light will be reduces and filtered. But if you put plastic why not pump some Co2 in there, create some Jurassic mega fauna conditions and grow your durian like crazy!
I am still hoping that some Dutch plastic house farmer will grow durian like he does tomatoes!
Finca,
agree low hanging fruit might not have the best conditions. Here there is an issue with the fruit spotting bug and they don't fly to well so low small fruits get stung the most.
Peace
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Actually found a video of a durian orchard in a greenhouse. This is one of the better durian channels as they usually have English subtitles. Seem to really know what they are talking about.
https://youtu.be/MDYggI_7oBw
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Cassowary,thanks for the information. I don't want to prune my trees too heavily. Most of the pruning I have done so far is removing low branches and cutting out competing vertical branches. I did have a fungus issue on two trees during the wet season and getting the leaves off the ground/grass was important. I will start training more branches soon.
0hip, durian in a greenhouse would be awesome. Would be great to have the resources!
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I agree Cassawory. I think I am going to have to do it a bit though - I’ve been a bit slack with the big red prawn …. It’s difficult getting up there to pull the higher branches down once the trees are a few metres high. Some of the more vertical laterals up high have good sized branches coming off them so I will do a few like that.
I’ve never worried too much about clearing out the area around the trunk for access but as my trees are all getting bigger I’m understanding how important it is to have plenty of space and easy access into the area around the trunk for ladders etc. it’s one of the reasons I’ve been a bit late getting in there with my older trees.
Important for me because I have allowed laterals to grow as low as 50cm from the ground.
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Was it Rhizoctonia solani?
Yeah having space for a ladder is really important for me too, hard access just makes it a drag to pick fruit!
Ohh no, Durian in a plastic house! I bet they want organic cert for premium prices and this is the only way they can get something to harvest without pesticides. Soon there might be hydroponic like tomatoes and the taste will be like cassava tainted with sweaty socks. No more fluffy pillows folks!
This is money farming, or bank farming as you pretty much always will need a huge mortgage to start this. Banks aren't happy with people picking durian in ancient food forests.
In 15 years there will be a lot of plastic and rusting steel to deal with... They probably will just digg a hole or burn it...
This is for the Chinese market most likely as the host talks about overseas investment. They are driving the Durian economy like never before.
Durian is adapted to the area, it's not iceberg lettuce! Bro come on!
This might just be a experimental project but It would be interesting to see if they can achieve higher profit margin then the standard orchard over 15 years. I wounder where their break even point price is per kilo of durian??
If it's an area where you get annual floods that are considerable then choose a species that is suitable and not durian, where have common sense gone? And when you mound soil the soil will get dry in times when there is no flooding so irrigation is needed, it's not an efficient use of resources to try and grow durian like this.
Peace
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I put the plastic on my shade house to turn it into a greenhouse and have found out a few things. It heats up very quickly in the sun. Almost 40°C and 90% humidity by 8:30am so it’s only needed for the nighttime really. Also it dosent actually keep warm overnight. To keep it warm I’ve ordered some fairy/Christmas lights to drape over the trees and they should produce enough heat to kee them warm overnight. I may not even need the plastic covered just rely on the lights. The lights won’t arrive for a few weeks as they are hard To come by. Most countries have phased out incandescent Christmas lights and the LED won’t produce any heat so I had to order some from overseas.
Im getting deformed growth on my new shoots on almost every leaf of my durian. Is this a nutrient deficiency or is it being burnt by too much sun? It’s covered in 70% shade cloth so I wouldent have thought it was the sun. Any help would be appreciated.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lhy9PLDH/15730-CC1-9-BB5-4-D14-8427-B6-FCBF214-D19.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lhy9PLDH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Q9h8QqvM/1-AB8-C3-D7-132-D-4-F9-B-B6-A6-C153-B8-D97398.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9h8QqvM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mzjb8HGy/3-E0-DE93-C-058-D-4-C0-D-B4-A5-F1-AD4-EE262-A8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mzjb8HGy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXZZXdyP/4-F421-EEB-6-B55-484-C-BCFF-3732-CB1-C733-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXZZXdyP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wRB9Pjq8/BB8-B1-D13-D9-BB-43-AB-9-C7-E-76006-C3-C44-A6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wRB9Pjq8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WhH1Bgq9/C460599-F-A86-A-4378-B330-1-DBBBAC5-C5-BC.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WhH1Bgq9)
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I have one durian that has leaves similar to what is shown in the photos. This particular durian developed this in the shade too (before being planted in the orchard). In my case, I'm not sure what the issue is since I have treated the same as all my other durians the same. Another durian has had some leaf drop recently and also has some deformed new leaves (but not curled like yours or the durian I previously mentioned). For this durian, I believe heat/intense sun is the culprit (we had one day get up around 37C with clear skies here in April, pretty sure it didn't like that). It's one year old with no shade cloth, probably needs more protection.
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ohip,
good on you for setting all that up for durian! I am sure you'll be rewarded one day!
I think that looks more like some form of parasitic bacteria or fungus but I am unsure, is there discoloration too? You got them under the shade cloth so I doubt it would be sun burn. Did you have any strong dry wind?
If it is dehydration from wind/sun then there might be something that reduces the osmosis in the soil for the plant so that it can't get enough sap to the new leaf's, maybe some parasite on the roots? Over application of salt fertilizer can draw water out of the plant, you can check that by checking the electro conductance of the soil. IDK, But I wouldn't be to worried about it unless it keeps happening over an over and general health starts going down.
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I was noticing in Thailand most durian farms around chanthaburi don’t even bother with shading the young trees once they get planted in the ground. The trees didn’t necessarily look very happy but I figure they know what they are doing and that eventually the trees will snap out of it and start growing better. Of course every location is different , I think if you are closer to the ocean durian are sensitive to the winds and salt in the air. I saw some durian farms on Koh chang that were probably only a few hundred yards from the ocean and yet were healthy with a lot of fruit.
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Hey Ben, good observation. I didn't see many locations shading either. Must be acclimating their trees in pots while preparing the land. Most trees looked good. I had mentioned that I saw lots of older trees that were dead or dying. I'm betting most of these were from disease. However, my wife was reading an article over here that said people were poisoning durian trees. Yeah. Someone gets pissed off at a neighbor or whatever reason, and decides they are going to kill a bunch of their durian trees. Nice, eh?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/jD8417Pz/IMG-1187.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jD8417Pz)
So these guys in Malaysia plant with shade on mounds. Their nursery was under shade cloth and I didn’t see any adaptations to full sun going on. The trees are cleft grafted when small like I do but we introduce our durian trees to sunlight before planting out. We also plant the young trees in between gliricidia stakes for some shade initially.
Peter
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it might be sunburn - the sun has moved drastically in the past month and now they get sun for alot longer than they were in summer as the sun is not blocked by my house for half the day as it was a month ago. ill keep an eye on it and maybe put some extra shade cloth on it but i also want them to sun harden a bit
insider did a video on durians being cut down by the government in Malaysia. it almost made me cry seeing those poor trees cut down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OHBqljDwjA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OHBqljDwjA)
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Never seen sunburn like that. In my experience, durians will drop their leaves following sunburn. How often are you watering? When it's hot and dry, I water everyday and really believe that helps. Other trees you can neglect and they still grow vigorously, like jackfruit. This is not the case for durian, unless they are in an ideal environment perhaps.
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Well I work fifo so someone else takes care of them when I’m away for 12 days. When I’m home I water almost every day but last swing I did loose a marcotted Maprang, erdon lee which were very newly planted and Haitian star apple so maybe that was the problem :-*. But she does take care of them well all the other times just a lot going on this month so I just bought some new ones.
Can’t get upset at someone that takes care of them while your away
My durio Macrantha seedlings in the first picture and a fresh batch of D99 seedlings below too
(https://i.postimg.cc/gXN44czz/IMG-0536.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gXN44czz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N9gp12wC/IMG-0537.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9gp12wC)
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Looks good :). Yeah, a bit tough if you have to go away for a while regularly. Maybe you could set up an automated irrigation system? Bit of work and upfront cost but could really help.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/fkmQHpJM/4-E4229-EC-8669-4-F43-B472-F5-A34-C8-F1-C7-F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fkmQHpJM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DJb33Y6d/EB82-FAEB-BE3-D-48-A9-8-EE2-5107-EAF3328-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJb33Y6d)
So pretty serious flowering here. The ground is covered with the drop and a secondary flower pop is occurring as well.
This is on a D-99 that is about 25 years old. Another D-99 is a tad behind this one. Not sure why that would be but it’s welcome of course. A couple of trees are flowering for the first time now. A mongthong and a Nokachip.
The harvest season should fall from early September into November we figure at this point.
Peter
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Looks good. Can't wait for my trees to flower for the first time.
I have a question, I while back, I topped my oldest seedling tree just above a lateral branch. Now, a new shoot has formed just below the cut and it looks like this will become the new leader. Should I remove this and encourage the lateral to become the new leader?
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I would go with what looks strongest, has the most energy. It could be that the lateral you thought would become the new leader just doesn’t have what it takes. I’ve had that experience before and so I try to make my topping cut directly above what seems like the strongest branch, maybe that’s even pointing upward somewhat. But things can happen and a leader have a setback somehow and then, ideally, another will take over.
Peter
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Thanks Peter. The lateral that I want to become the main leader is already pointing up and is quite thick with lots of new growth so looks good to me. I would prefer it to become the leader rather than the new shoot.
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The cold is getting to the durians. Getting to me too. Having to wear a jumper when I wake up in the morning. The leaves are the Macrantha sadly so not as cold tolerant as hoped and the second is just leaves falling from the smaller seedling. Leaves falling from the larger seedling but it’s got plenty to spare.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y36DTX06/IMG-0676.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y36DTX06)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R6B6WzFH/IMG-0677.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6B6WzFH)
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What minimums have you been getting down to in your area? I'm a fair bit further north of you but most of my trees are still pushing out new growth. Expect them to slow down about though over the next few months.
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I think the coldest was 8. This morning was 10 but the days are also staying colder not just the nights. Put the greenhouse plastic back up to try encourage them along
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8C is certainly getting a bit cold, though they get those kind of mins between Cairns and Mission Beach and plenty of durian is grown there. Here's my Macrantha. I did cut of the main leader since it don't damaged (by a grass hopper I believe). I have selected a new leader and seems to be going okay.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3kj921FF/Macrantha-20230530.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3kj921FF)
Also, here is the new shoot I mentioned previously. My wife is on the side of keeping the new shoot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7GhV8k8K/new-shoot.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7GhV8k8K)
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We had two mornings last year at my place in a row of 8.4 and 8.9c two of my durians dropped all of their leaves and are still only barely recovering almost a year later
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I assume once the trees get more established, they should become more cold tolerant? If so, giving them a but more protection for the fist couple of years I would do the trick I think. Micro-climates are also certainly important. I live close to Gone Troppo but on the side of a hill and have not experienced any leaf drop following cold nights.
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I think my macrantha a goner. When I planted it a few months ago it got plenty of sun. Since we moved into winter it gets almost no direct sun because it’s in the shadow of the house. The sun have moved an insane amount and stuff that used to be only partly shaded is now full sun for most of the day and vice Versa.
It dosent even get sun to heat up the mini greenhouse I’ve given it. The main durian house is fine though but I don’t think that location will ever work for a plant that needs heat in winter
(https://i.postimg.cc/kDSHpRtf/IMG-0686.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDSHpRtf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RNQDMrdt/IMG-0687.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RNQDMrdt)
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Our durians are pumping out lots of new leaves, I can't believe it.
I'll take a photo of one when I can.
It haven't been cold here though, coldest 17.8C recorded so far this year. But quite windy.
Seeing some machrantah talk, does anyone notice any consistent difference in leaf morphology of machrantah vs zibethinus?
Cold damage, does anyone of ya monitor leaf brix levels? Increasing that should help with cooler weather. If you are monitoring, did it help to increase?
Wow Peter you got the "red carpet" there :D
Ohip,
Yeah I saw that documentary too. Seams like a waste of resources when they could just claim the land back again with the police army. But I guess they want to hit hard on those who LAWFULLY INHERITED the land from a long time back when a farmer got the ownership of the land if you planted durian and other tree crops in the rainforest. all the fruits talks about this deal of the past in one of his videos. I guess there weren't any title system back then, just good o'l agreements.
And yeah sure now they (durian exporters) want them as workers "slaves" and not land owners or business owners.
"The middle class" is to do away with in a dictatorship/monarchy/oligarchy.
Peace and durian!
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The leaves of my macrantha do look different to my zibethinus durians, but even within zibethinus, there is a lot of leaf variabilty. It doesn't look different enough from my untrained eyes to suspect that it was not a zibethinus.
Regarding other durio species, I planted a durian today which I suspect is a different species. Interestingly, the seedling did not have a taproot! Instead it had ~8 roots of similar size originating from base of the plant. The fruit the seed came from was particularly spiky and hard to open. The flesh was orange (edit: cream color with a hint of orange) and strong tasting/bitter. Also, the leaf size is larger than my other durians. It came from a property with multiple durio species but it was sold as just a durian.
Edit: Suspect it's a Durio lowianus.
Here is a photo of the fruit. Pretty excited by this. Suspected it could of been a different species based off the fruit itself but the root structure was clearly nothing like a zibethinus.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2qnLx3BL/lowianus.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2qnLx3BL)
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Yeah I agree there is variabilty in zibethinus.
I am also unsure how many cultuvar that we call zibethinus that actually could be hybrids with, kutejensis, lowianus, graveolens, dulcis and oxleyanus.
According to Anthon Lamb, Wild durio zibehinus in Borneo has very white flesh small spikes and is quite bitter. It’s in A guide to wild fruits of Borneo.
I’v got a zibethinus x dulcis and know that there are zibethinus x graveolens and zibethinus x kutejensis.
Havent heard of oxleyanus hybrids but suspetc it is possible.
Durian Suluk is a graveolens hybrid i think and its a F3 hybrid i think. So it’s been through 3 crossings if I am not wrong.
There are lowianus and zibethinus hybrids, poscii on the forum knows a tree and I have a photo somewhere.
How many seeds of the fruit did you plant?
Did all grow multiple roots?
I have seen zibethinus grow multiple roots so can happen, it’s usually when the seed is not very big or unhealthy.
It could be lowianus. Lowianus is really bitter and less sweet, but I have only tried it once in Thailand.
There are diversity in lowianus fruits too.
I would look at the flower for clear ID.
Strong durian having great growth during winter!
(https://i.postimg.cc/RNTYR0F8/3-B967-EA2-D03-F-4-DF8-B714-3418231-F5218.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RNTYR0F8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJDrsXP4/D6-C3-BEBD-0-EEC-46-A7-90-A9-B031-E2-DABC38.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJDrsXP4)
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I planted 4 seeds, 1 died (pot might have dried out), 1 had issues throwing off the seed casing, 2 are looking good. Have planted one in the ground, might get the next in the ground soon. Have not seen the roots of the other good seedling.
Your durian is looking great. Much bigger than mine :).
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I had only about a dozen big gumpuns this season but they were good.
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New leader after 1 month of growth -
(https://i.postimg.cc/9D7PqVrk/durian-230628.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9D7PqVrk)
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What’s happening there is unusual in my experience. I’m seeing something similar on one of my topped durian trees right now. But in most cases the highest branch remaining grows more vertical and takes over as the new leader. Obviously the new growth is thinner at this point but when this happened before it really picked up the pace and pushed the development of the tree. Something still tells me the tree is supposed to go with the larger branch but I think it works out anyway and the fact that you topped the tree at that point should lead to a better shape overall.
Peter
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Last weeks monthong 7.5/10. Season seems to be almost over here on the big island
(https://i.postimg.cc/Tymyfd0Z/IMG-0473.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Tymyfd0Z)
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Nice Ben, how’s the season been, any really special, stand out durians?
Peter
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Hey Peter, just been here a couple months now almost, think I caught the tail end of the season. Seemed to be mostly monthongs, maybe chanee and some others. A variety called pohakulani is one of the best here, but didn’t get to try any this season. It’s a bitter-sweet durian
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Good to see Mike T come back from the dead.
My two oldest Durian just hit 2 years in the ground a few days ago, after 2 years the P88 (D178) measures 280cm high with trunk thickness of 53.78mm (measured 150mm above graft union), and my miserable PK planted at same time and same age measures 118cm and 29.03mm.
There is a dark horse looming in the background though, my kradumthong which is only 1 year in ground is already rapidly outgrown the PK and is on track to overtake the P88 in a year or two if growth continues this one is a standout.
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That’s great that you have a kradomthong that is growing so well. That’s the first grafted durian that came into production for me. The fruit is good but also very important is the fact that it has proven itself to be very self fertile to the point of breaking branches it was so overloaded with fruit on a friends farm that had no other flowering durians anywhere nearby.
Peter
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That’s great that you have a kradomthong that is growing so well. That’s the first grafted durian that came into production for me. The fruit is good but also very important is the fact that it has proven itself to be very self fertile to the point of breaking branches it was so overloaded with fruit on a friends farm that had no other flowering durians anywhere nearby.
Peter
Thats great to hear Peter, yeh the big farm where i got this kradumthong from has similar experience to what you are saying, basically every year it is his most consistent reliable producer. I will certainly be focusing on trying to graft this one when it gets older to get a at least one more in the yard.
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Gone Tropo made me curious so I just measured a few of my trees. P88 is about 253 cm high after 1 year in the ground. PK is 207cm high, I believe I planted it shortly after the P88. P88 is the highest but the PK has better developed laterals. Best seedling from the 2022 season is 177cm high (seed collected in late March, was an excellent fruit but variety/source is unknown).
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I’ve been cleft grafting with scion material that I am getting off of relatively small durian trees. Either shaping by topping once the trees get to about 150cm or cutting branch tips from overextended branches. I have recently planted a Black thorn, 101, and a Golden Phoenix taking advantage of cutting from shaping young material.
Peter
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Nice. Your lucky to have access to a lot of great varieties.
To add to my last message, I do have a few grafted trees that are dragging the heels and have barely grown even though they have been in the ground more than half a year. If the don't get there act together in the next half year, it might be worth replacing them since they are taking up valuable space.
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Gone Tropo made me curious so I just measured a few of my trees. P88 is about 253 cm high after 1 year in the ground. PK is 207cm high, I believe I planted it shortly after the P88. P88 is the highest but the PK has better developed laterals. Best seedling from the 2022 season is 177cm high (seed collected in late March, was an excellent fruit but variety/source is unknown).
Thats some great growth man you trees are very happy.
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Tropo, they also have this problem in SE Asia of some trees not doing well. I think that is why some growers will plant two trees to select one eventually. At one of the large farms I visited in January almost half of the durian trees that had been planted on terraces were replanted with new material.
Some of mine have started to get yellow leaves and what has helped that a lot is sulphur. You need to help the root system with something….
Peter
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There’s a great YouTube channel I found buy an (American? Canadian?) that moved to Thailand and started a durian farm. He has videos on all things durians and I’ll link the one below where he shows how to pick a good grafted tree. Really good channel and also very informative.
Most of us only get to pick from maybe a dozen grafted trees not the thousands in the video though.
https://youtu.be/rvmExYGj0Gc (https://youtu.be/rvmExYGj0Gc)
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Ohip yeh i have seen that guy before certainly interesting but like you say we are beggars here with durian and beggars cant be choosers basically take what you can get in terms of grafted trees.
Peter that's interesting and i will probably eventually replace poor trees with the varieties that seem to do better locally, there is a huge difference between good trees and poor trees even when only planted meters apart with the same amount of sun, water, fertiliser etc.
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I did get a grafted tree of the early-season durian previously mentioned here. Been in the ground for a month or two and has been growing well. Got high hopes for this tree, self-fertile, productive and fruits months earlier most trees.
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I did get a grafted tree of the early-season durian previously mentioned here. Been in the ground for a month or two and has been growing well. Got high hopes for this tree, self-fertile, productive and fruits months earlier most trees.
I plan on trying this soon. :D Wish me luck x
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My P88 is a big productive tree and keeps growing through winter. Gumpun my most productive tree has just been attacked and nearly ringbarked by borer longicorn beetles. I have a productive limberlost that survived the condition when I thought it was a gonna.
Some selections of monthong in FNQ have an early flush with ripe fruit 3 or 4 months early and they follow up with a later crop.
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You're a Cairns girl Emma?
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Hope your tree's fine Mike. Borers scare me, haven't had an issue yet with my durians.
Here's the roots of what I believe is a Durio lowianus seedling. Of the three I have planted, only one had a taproot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yD9810RG/durian-no-tap-root.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yD9810RG)
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We’ve had borers but never lost a durian to them yet.
It’s common to cut tap roots with durian. It promotes more lateral root development that is easier to feed and the tree can develop faster.
Peter
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Any of you guys have recommendations for an electric /battery powered sprayer that will reach 5-6 metres?
I want to start using foliar feeding more and by trees are too big now for the hand pump
Ones. Several of my trees are on stone terraces less than 2m wide and I think this will be a good way to supplement their needs
The YouTuber linked here a few pages ago ( TM Travels)had one connected to his tractor and his guys were 6m trees easily from the ground in a few seconds
Cheers Jim
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I have an electric Makita backpack sprayer that I have been using. Can easily spray 3m trees but don't know about 5-6m trees.
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Hey mate
Yeah ….. I’ve decided 6m is going to be my top on all of them - check out the guys video - they saturate the tree in 10 seconds - because half my trees on my terraces are essentially in very large pots I think it’s going to be pretty important for the future for fertiliser and minerals.
I’m going to end up with 12 trees squeezed into my suburban block so I think it is going to be worth the $$ long term to be able to spray them every few weeks.
Looking at a Scintex petrol blower/ mister - can do 9m vertically - would mean I could go out and do all the trees in 10 minutes.
I’m done with climbing up ladders with my hand pump nonsense.
I’ve also got some horrible chewing bug that comes in from the bush when it gets dry and destroys all my new growth - only thing that stops it is Maverick spray - my Sunan almost died and still has really deformed terminal growth from last years attack
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I did get a grafted tree of the early-season durian previously mentioned here. Been in the ground for a month or two and has been growing well. Got high hopes for this tree, self-fertile, productive and fruits months earlier most trees.
I plan on trying this soon. :D Wish me luck x
Mike, I think Emma lives inside Elon Musks computer...
She might ask us to plugg in to the brain cable he's creating.
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We’ve had a very mild winter here but my durians are looking a bit worse for wear. The large one I think will be ok but the small normal durian seedling has been pulled out. The Macrantha seedling has a single leaf left but has a lot of flush on it. Given up on it a bit but I’ll see how it goes
Edit: photos were in the wrong order before 😂 fixed now
Only a single leaf left after this pic (Macrantha)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJh143GP/IMG-1150.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJh143GP)
Zibinthius hanging in there
(https://i.postimg.cc/xc7TK2HK/IMG-1197.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xc7TK2HK)
New flush so maybe not done for
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZBTTTKth/IMG-1198.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBTTTKth)
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Thanks for the update. Interesting to see what it's like growing durian in Townsville. Hope your trees pull through! We have only had one cold night up here near Daintree/Mossman this winter. I think I have only watered once in close to 2 months since we have been getting consistent rain. With the warmer temps and humid conditions, our durian are going strong. A couple of durian are really taking off.
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Glad to hear your durians are doing well Fruit Nerd. Most of ours are growing really well too here in CR.
There is a durian season now in the Southern Pacific zone of CR and some friends just came from there that had been eating Musang King. I haven’t has Musang King here yet but they report it being very good and having the same flat seed quality consistent in Malaysia.
Our drop is to begin shortly by the end of this month. There have been several flushes so it should carry into November I think. It’s still a little rainy here but we expect that to dry up by September to ensure the quality we want.
Peter
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As fruit nerd said no need for watering around here, Iam at 2740mm for the year so far, a guy i know 10km away from me in the daintree is at 3900mm for the year already, he averages 4150mm a year. Only one cold night at my place of 10.5C no leaf drop from this.
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Sounds like good conditions. Not too sure about the Daintree getting almost 4m by now! That’s kind of extreme, hope that doesn’t happen here.
Our rainfall ranges from 2m-5.5m but averages more like 3.5 probably.
Peter
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Yeah conditions are superb at the moment, throwing in as many trees I can!
I can see we got some grape sized durian flowers on. Some people have small fruit now.
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Sounds like good conditions. Not too sure about the Daintree getting almost 4m by now! That’s kind of extreme, hope that doesn’t happen here.
Our rainfall ranges from 2m-5.5m but averages more like 3.5 probably.
Peter
Peter yeh the daintree and other wet growing areas here such as tully and babinda get 6000 to almost 8000mm in a wet year probably too much really, however they average 4100-4600mm a year for over 100 years of recoding in some cases. Houses and everything is constantly mouldy
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Hi every,
I'm Adam, recently came back from Penang after trying 12 varieties. Amazing experience.
Been reading your thread, really interesting and learnt so much.
Just wondering if anyone has any tasting notes for Penang88/D178. That's one I wasn't able to find, but it seems productive here in Australia.
Thanks.
Adam
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Hello Adam, that sounds great. I have not tried Penang 88 yet unfortunately. I have a tree but it's yet to fruit. A lot of the cultivars from more serious growers get sent south. You might have seen this post but if not - https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=42725.0.
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Hi Adam - we spent a couple of weeks in Penang earlier in the year and got to try a P88 on a tour of Green Acres orchard ( highly recommended)
I have a tree myself that hasn’t fruited yet.
It was really pleasant and had a more complex flavour than any durians I have had around Cairns - definitely in a different league to local ones.
I do remember being very glad I have a tree - problem with those tastings is that you have so many amazing durians that they blur into one.
Our stand out durian was a black thorn from a stall in Bulik Pulau not too far from Green acres - it was like eating a complex, thick, sticky crème brûlée.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/MMSbJmK6/E51-B7-E54-1-F7-C-4110-BC1-B-94-C548-D2-B2-A2.png) (https://postimg.cc/MMSbJmK6)
These were some notes I made in the day
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Thanks for the information Jim. Might have to start making plans to get over there next year. Last durian season was quite disappointing here, though I did get a few excellent durians. Being able to consistently buy quality durian would be great. PS. The "little red" is xiao hong in Chinese pinyin.
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Hey Fruit nerd - it’s pretty easy from Cairns. The Singapore flight is only just over 6 hours and then an hour to Penang from there. Singapore airlines putting on an A350 airbus instead of the cramped 737 from next year.
They drive on the left in Malaysia so we hired a car and it wasn’t bad after getting used to it. We stayed in Georgetown and would drive up and over the range to get to the bulik Pulau area to visit the farms.
It’s mind blowing driving around in the hills - it’s like a bigger version of driving up the Kuranda range and down again but instead of rainforest all the hills are covered with huge durian trees -50-60m high!!
The whole island is only quite small.
The couple who run green acres are amazing and do an amazing tour. The tasting was fantastic - all stuffed to the hills with great durian. We talked a lot about how he fertilises and manages his trees.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/Sn6SCcdY/5-EF78044-EB1-B-44-CB-B2-B3-4-C91-D37-B14-D1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sn6SCcdY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0r4yskrj/6-A452328-BF52-4736-9-B4-C-9001-EF07368-F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0r4yskrj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pyrL4hW3/A7-D7-EF79-5998-4-AAC-AD72-AC42-A669039-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pyrL4hW3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4Yk4YW6T/C38898-BC-43-FE-4-AED-A8-A4-7913-D24954-EB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4Yk4YW6T)
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I’ve been to Green acres twice, Eric is a great guy! It’s one of the few organic farms on Penang.
Are these photos current, do they have durian at this time?
I would like to be in Penang next June or so for durian and then go to Borneo for a wider range of fruits.
Peter
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Hi Peter - they are from end of June - we were at the tail end of the first season. From the durian FB groups I follow the second season is happening right now
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Maybe a naive question but is it pretty easy to get around Penang with English? Considering that a lot of Malaysian durians have Mandarin/Hokkien names, I assume you'd be pretty set with those languages?
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Everyone speaks English - been a colonial place forever
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Cool, that makes things easy. My wife knows 4 languages which makes things easier, and English for the win for me.
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Of the edible Durio species, which species are the most resistant to phytophthora? I know that Durio lowianus is meant to be quite resistant to phytophthora and also makes a good rootstock for Durio zibethinus. Also, other than Durio zibethinus, what Durio species do you think are worthwhile growing?
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Not sure about phytophthora but I think the more ‘wild’ types have more resistance. Graveolens, kutejensis, oxyleanus, dulcis and any hybrids of those with zibethinus., I’ve tried them and imho they are all worth growing. I’ve been to a market outside tenom (forget which town exactly) that had more graveolens than regular durian. The market in Sipitang will often has as many graveolens as they have zibethinus.
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Besides zibethinis the most commercial would be graveleons but I feel that it doesn’t generate the enthusiasm that zibethinis does even in the few areas where it is appreciated. Virtually nobody in Penang wants graveleons.
There are several other species that we are growing and graveleons and kutejensis are in production in CR. Last year testaduriam flowered but didn’t set on a friends farm here.
I have heard of using graveleons as rootstock in Malaysia although I don’t think it’s common. At Gary Zill’s project here in CR they had zero success grafting zibethinis onto graveleons. Phytophtora seems to be a concern in Thailand where they use systemic fungicides to avoid it. We haven’t seen a problem with root fungus on durians here so far. Root fungus is around as we have plenty of trouble with avocados and black pepper but so far I haven’t seen a mature durian tree with a root fungus issue.
Peter
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Thanks Ben and Peter, I have seen dulcis for sale here but others are hard to find. I am thinking of keeping a spot for a 'wild' durian if the opportunity arises.
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Fruit nerd. I too have seen very expensive dulcis seedlings popping up - there was a guy in Kuranda selling seeds a couple of years ago who I believe these secondary sellers got their seeds from. He was pretty open and didn’t recommend growing them purely for their eating qualities
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Never eaten dulcis before, but I agree, the amount of flesh seems very underwhelming. Have seen the fruit for sale around here for $50 per fruit from memory. Maybe a good price if you plan on growing the seeds but for the edible flesh, definitely very expensive.
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I was a little disappointed by the scant amount of edible flesh when I had it and probably wouldn’t pay more than $10 for one. It is a really pretty fruit though and the taste is very unique. I saw a dulcis x zibethinus hybrid at a roadside market somewhere outside of Miri that could have been very good, but I wasn’t feeling well enough that day to try it. It somewhat resembled a regular durian but the skin was slightly red, thus we determined it must have been a hybrid. The hybrids I think generate quite a bit of excitement. I’ve seen suluk fetch prices in the same ball park as musang king. Tenom beauty flesh is bright red, really draws you in, but I found the taste was just ok, whereas suluk taste to me is very good and leans on the graveolens side.
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Its true dulcis usually have low flesh recovery and are alright so far as taste goes. They vary a bit in fruit size and big fruiting ones are much better. I have not tried dulcis x zib but friends who tried them in Borneo said they are very good. Kutejensis, macrantha and graveolans are worthwhile. I havent tried red graveolans. Zibethinus crosses with other species seem to get enthusuasts blood flowing.
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I have zibethinus, macrantha and possibly lowianus. Would love to get a kutejensis or graveolans. They are hard to find.
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The are all in FNQ but a few have not yet fruited or are in private collections not being shared. People sell kutejensis seedlings occasionally and even yellow graveolans fruit.
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Out of the three colors of graveolens, red seem the most mild flavored. At the right time of year one can try any of the 3 at the durian night market in kota Kinabalu. Oxyleanus can range in flavor from mild/ bland to sweet as vanilla cake frosting. Worth hunting for a good one. I remembered there is a pink-fleshed hybrid I tried in Davao which looked like a graveolens from the outside and it had a very mild flavor that is easy to forget about
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I would like to be in Penang next June or so for durian and then go to Borneo for a wider range of fruits.
Peter
Make a stopover in Bali too. It's like additional $100 for a ticket. I'll show you around. After 11 months in Bali I know all the spots for premium durians. June was a peak season for amazing durians. As good as any premier Malaysian varieties, and all that time I was thinking how to spread these varieties to the world.
Durians are plentiful all year here. Not seasonal. But June and now in September mini peaks, really good stuff worth grafting.
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I was checking on my durians yesterday and was surprised to find one durian with quite a bit of damage. Any ideas on what could have done this? I checked the leaves for pests and nothing. Only one durian was badly effected and one other had very minor damage. PS. I believe this a Durio lowianus :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hz9XZyRP/durian-damage.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hz9XZyRP)
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If that damage was here I would say leaf cutter ants. They make clean, half moon, cuts like that.
Peter
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That would be great Durian lover. I was in Bali in the 70’s and it was wonderful. However, I’ve been avoiding it so to preserve what’s left of those memories. But for a fruit trip it could make sense. I’ll let you know. Many thanks.
Peter
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Thanks Peter, I don't believe that we have leaf cutter ants in Australia, but we do have leaf cutter bees so that could be the culprit.
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I was checking on my durians yesterday and was surprised to find one durian with quite a bit of damage. Any ideas on what could have done this? I checked the leaves for pests and nothing. Only one durian was badly effected and one other had very minor damage. PS. I believe this a Durio lowianus :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hz9XZyRP/durian-damage.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hz9XZyRP)
Just a normal herbivore insect. Nothing to worry about. Just give it a bit more love ya know.
It would be amazing if it’s a lowianus! Well you will know when it flowers!!
Yeah Bali is great for durian, really good diversity. In big towns durian tend to be old sometimes so bali requires more due dilligence then Thailand for example.
Fruit nerd,
Fruit forest farm nursery have kutejensis and graveolens. No more then 25-35 for a seedling.
Dulcis you have to grow out from seeds from fruit you get of River, Dulcis have been the hardest for me to establish, idk what the problem is but they just don’t get vigorous. Idk what I am doing wrong with them, just more finky then zibethinus and all other durio sp. IMO.
Thats amazing, to hear about a flowering kura kura!
For everyones info, phytophra is an alge and not a fungi.
They reseblem fungi but are not.
That is why mulch helps since it encourages mychorizea which in turn will eat the cellulose membrane of phytophra palmiviora.
Using fungicide for phytophra is foolish. Most time plant issue is miss diagnosed as phytophra.
Phytophra isnt even an issue irl. More like alleopathic plant medicine marketing propaganda.
If you keep pigs away, mulch properly and make sure there is enough moisture in the soil there won’t be an issue with anything regarding durian, they are resllybl strong trees given proper care.
Pigs, drought and wind kill durian up here.
Not phytophra.
This advice if for common FNQ Soil types and climate.
Peace,
Feast on durian :D
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Fruit forest farm nursery have kutejensis and graveolens. No more then 25-35 for a seedling.
Nice, might see if I can pick one up. Thanks for the info.
Another question, I've been picking small beetles off one of our durian almost everyday now for about two weeks, must of killed at least 50-60. They have really shredded the young leaves but the tree is fine. What I don't understand is that no other tree has had this problem. Any ideas on why on tree is constantly getting eaten and trees right next have not had a single beetle. It's at the end of line but it's fairly clean around it.
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Hi Fruit nerd
My sunan has been almost destroyed a couple of times by some chewing bug targeting new growth. I posted photos a year or so ago on this thread somewhere
Spraying it with mavrik insecticide seemed to stop it.
Cheers Jim
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Hi Fruit nerd
My sunan has been almost destroyed a couple of times by some chewing bug targeting new growth. I posted photos a year or so ago on this thread somewhere
Spraying it with mavrik insecticide seemed to stop it.
Cheers Jim
Interesting, was it just the one durian that was getting damaged? The beetles were eating the young leaves and not the tips which is good. Plenty of buds ready to push out so it should recover quickly.
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Anyone else headed to borneo this season ? I am headed out to KK next Friday. Looking forward to some durian hunting
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Hi Benjamin
I am hoping to go next year and I’m trying to figure what time would be best. I was there 5 years ago in August and it was pretty good. But a different good season would interest me. How are you picking this time to go?
Peter
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Peter and Ben...I thought the main season is past already??? I see some pics of cool fruits still being harvested though. Maybe we should organize a trip for next year??? I'm sure Lindsay could help out.
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Hey, the main season is usually December / January-ish with mid year having a good crop sometimes. The past 2 times I went were in December were both great timing. After doing some research it seems the season has started early this year and will continue for another 2-3 months, some trees are just flowering now.
I came across this picture, was just posted online a few weeks ago as a review for KK durian market. You can google it to see what others have posted recently. After messaging the vendor listed in this picture he said there is still lots of durian and probably more graveolens/ dalit next month. I am considering a trip to Brunei this time too as I hear they are in season now too. Maybe later Kalimantan for hunting different hybrids
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJcv7MFP/IMG-1494.png) (https://postimages.org/) (https://postimages.org/)
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Awesome! I know that there is keledang and willughbeias available right now in some areas, so you should get some cool stuff.
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One of my durians is still getting eaten by beetles. Other than the leaf damage, the tree is going great with dark green leaves and lots of buds ready to push out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/64yHjnys/beetle.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/64yHjnys)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXTrp2ts/PK-leaf-damage.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXTrp2ts)
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Having a good mini season here in FNQ and a lot of durian trees are flowering around here at the moment. Here's a fruit from yesterday. Was probably a tad overripe for my liking (our fault for putting it in our house all day before opening it). Good colour and incredibly sweet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/f39BQ2FP/sweet-durian-01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f39BQ2FP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZBPHC9JF/sweet-durian-02.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBPHC9JF)
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Few pics from recent trip to Sabah-
Musang-
(https://i.postimg.cc/8554j6cH/IMG-1740.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Graveolens in Sipitang, best I’ve had-
(https://i.postimg.cc/htLpwnN9/IMG-1808.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
D101-
(https://i.postimg.cc/bdQHK0Vz/IMG-1678.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bdQHK0Vz)
Mangifera pajang, caesia, kutenjensis and red graveolens in Nabalu-
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZW9LsG1Q/IMG-1730.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZW9LsG1Q)
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That graveolens looks stunning!
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Hi Peter
Any chance to get from you some grafted durian seedlings?
I am next door from you🙏
Andre
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Hi Andre,
Sure. I have some right now and am grafting a few hundred in the next two months. I have had lots of clients from Panama.
You can coordinate with me easily on WhatsApp. +506-8829-4929
Saludos
Peter
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My gumpun, P88 and limberlost are currently festooned with flowers and seeting fruit. Temps are 34c to 25c min every forecast day still and we need rain badly in Cairns. The tap turned off on the weather 8 weeks ago.
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Hi Mike
Do you irrigate then? If so, what would be an irrigation schedule on a production tree when it is so dry?
Peter
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I casually water by hand and only in the past few weeks of this year.
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Mike up here there has been ripe fruit for a good while now, we are pretty dry too I have had 2978mm of rain for the year so far but bugger all the last 6 weeks.
How is your red prawn going any flowers?
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Visiting Durian Farm in Việt Nam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEfY3Imq46s
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Mike up here there has been ripe fruit for a good while now, we are pretty dry too I have had 2978mm of rain for the year so far but bugger all the last 6 weeks.
We got a good drink last week (or was it the week before?). About 50mm all up I think. Grass has greened up and jaboticaba and grumichama have exploded with flowers. A few of the durians are pushing out lots of new growth. Looking forward to my first flowers, maybe in a couple of years :).
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I am at around 2400mm and almost 0 for 7 weeks. No red prawn flowers but a late feb thru March crop looks likely
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I have to say, the mini durian season we just had was great. Had some really great durians. Much better than the main season earlier this year where a lot of the fruits were damaged (fruit rot?), presumably due to the massive amounts of rain were had before harvest. Would be great to select varieties that produce a good crop in Nov, before the start of the wet season.
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A particular monthong lineage seems to produce the spring crop reliably before the regular late summer/Autumn crop.
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Is the flowering for both of those crops induced by a dry period or does the spring crop seem to flower without the ‘dry’?
Peter
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Is the flowering for both of those crops induced by a dry period or does the spring crop seem to flower without the ‘dry’?
Peter
Not too sure on the answer to this. Jan/Feb/Mar is the peak of the wet season here. It's possible that a short dry period in April/May could stimulate flowering. Another factor is that we had a warm winter here. Breadfruit and mangosteen fruited out of season. Would really like to see the raw data of daily rainfall at Whyanbeel/Daintree but not sure if that is publicly available.
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http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/cdio/weatherData/av?p_nccObsCode=136&p_display_type=dailyDataFile&p_startYear=&p_c=&p_stn_num=031062
That’s the link for rainfall data for whyanbeel this year which is very very similar to my own data. Wetter than average all winter from June to sep
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http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDQ65002.shtml
For those growing durian in places that don’t get cyclones consider yourself lucky this is what we are facing over the coming days, likely to impact several regulars in this thread.
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Yeah, that’s pretty serious, although the forecast shows it getting weaker.
There’s never been a cyclone where we are but there have been some close enough to the North that you begin to wonder. Houses and infrastructure are designed to resist earthquakes but not hurricanes.
Best of luck,
Peter
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Yeah, that’s pretty serious, although the forecast shows it getting weaker.
Now a Category 4 and yes, it should weaken over the next couple of days. Unfortunately, there are indications that it could re-intensify before landfall. We'll see. Still a long way out, but currently, things aren't looking good.
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how would going around and doing an extremely prejudicial prune just before the storm go? literally cut off all the main branches back to stubs. very last minute stuff as a last resort but it would dramatically reduce the force being applied to the root system and the tree should just grow back after the storm. that would be my plan if everything else fails.
im in townsville so also looking at getting hit but some of the latest has it heading further north. hopefully it weakens alot before it crosses the coast otherwise its going to be a tough few years for everyone
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I was in a category 4 storm in Fiji years ago. It was interesting how mango trees, especially, let their branches get blown off but the main trunk survived while other trees just got completely blown over. I like the idea of the radical pruning to save the tree, probably about the last preparation when it’s fairly certain you’re about to get clobbered. 🤞🤞🤞
Peter
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Yep - I’m in Cairns and I have decided where I’m lopping my big Limberlost tree if it looks like we will get hit. Some big side branches higher up will go too. Would be such a shame …. It’s flowering properly for the first time in years!!
I seem to recall Mike T talking about regretting not chopping his trees before the Larry/ yasi cyclones.
I have long metal star pickets which I am going to hammer in triangular patterns around my larger young trees and then tie ropes from them to the trunk to try and limit the amount of movement of the trunk to hopefully lessen root damage.
Andrew ( Gone troppo) made a good point about painting the trunks for sun protection after all the leaves have been blown off in a text today.
Well fingers crossed ……. I really want to eat my own durian this year for a change !!
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At this stage looks like me and fruit nerd going to take a direct hit cat 3 which is winds to 225km/h if it curves slightly south over coming days jim and mike in cairns going to cop it.
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Quick update, the cyclone made landfall as a Cat 2 and was intensifying leading up to landfall. Been up to 1m of rain in the last few days and many roads have been blocked by flooding. All my durian survived fortunately. One small tree did have a branch land on it but it did not snap it. Some durian trees were certainly roughed up and have branches that seemingly don't know up from down. A couple of durian trees have also lost leaves on a couple of branches. All in all, I think they look fine and should bounce back quickly.
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Good to hear, could have been worse. I hope Gone Tropo has done well enough as well!
Peter
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Unfortunately, things have gone downhill from when I made the post above. The Daintree and Mossman rivers are flooding badly and there has been record flooding in Cairns. ~500mm has been recorded in 10 hours near Cairns, and that was after 500mm in the previous 24 hours. Heavy rain is still falling so this is not over yet.
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Record flooding occurring here I have recorded 1879mm of rain in last 5 days with 700mm of that falling in last 24 hours. I’m nearing 5000mm for the year.
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Hello,
Today, some of the my durians have leaves that are turning brown. I believe this is wind damage since it is effecting the more exposed durians and with Cyclone Jasper, we had strong winds for many hours. That said, I can't rule out water being the problem since we also had 2m (6 feet) of rain in 6 days. One question, would it be a good idea to apply an organic fertiliser now to stimulate new growth?
(https://i.postimg.cc/KRnzbP0P/P1001137-rs.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KRnzbP0P)
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Don't apply fertliser now.BTW my penang88, Gumpun and Limberlost have set lots of smallish fruit and are in the middle of another big flowering event. The sudden deluge after a dry period seems to have helped.
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Thanks Mike T, out of curiosity, what is the reason for not apply fertiliser now and how long would you wait? Sad to see the durians get knocked around like this, most were looking great before the cyclone. Hopefully it doesn't set them back too much.
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Nerd, I think with small trees like the one in the photo to apply an organic fertilizer could be good. I would maybe hold off on a NPK application depending. But perhaps so much rain has washed/leached away any top dressing that was there.
For durians in production cycles the timing of applications is important but I would keep the light applications coming for small trees and perhaps a foliar calcium application.
Peter
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It has copped a thrashing and been water logged. Roots and root hairs will be compromised a bit. I think let it try to heal a bit and maybe clear grass around the stem and wait for it to reshoot a little. Fertiliser now may ad to the stress but if you're overwhelmed by the desire to do something put mild fertliser around and well away from the stem.
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I've heard of people growing Durian here in Florida, but I've never heard of anyone having them flower or fruit. Does anyone know why?
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I've heard of people growing Durian here in Florida, but I've never heard of anyone having them flower or fruit. Does anyone know why?
If you look at the mean daily minimums and max's for Miami as an example, it looks quite suitable for growing durian. A quick look at the record minimums though quickly reveals the problem - it gets way too cold. The record min is -3C/27F for Miami. Durian is grown in places in Australia that get down to around 5C occasionally. That is too cold for them and they will loose leaves but will survive. -3C/27F though is insanely cold and durian wouldn't stand a chance.
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Thanks Mike and Peter. I did end up applying organic fertiliser today, but only on the durians with minimal damage. I will give a bit of time for the badly damaged durians to recover. Two durians have lost about 70-80% of their leaves, they're not too happy at the moment.
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Time will tell.
As for durians in Florida just a straight up no and this has been discussed here many times. The contenders for a shot would be the most cold tolerant durian varieties which the inference and observation includes red prawn and lin and long laplaes. Durio macrantha is pretty close to zibethinus and kinabaluensis are the two other colder tolerant species that need to be taken to the limit.
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Durians could only be productive in Florida in a very good greenhouse. There’s people working in that so we’ll see. The temperature should be supported at about 12C probably.
Another problem for durian in Florida is that the soil is unsuitable so that’s another big challenge to deal with.
Peter
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Mounded soil or slightly elevated with suitable acidity might be possible. The Cassowary Coast south of me gives a good insight into lower temperature tolerances as it gets quite cool a couple of times for runs of 3 or 4 nights in winter. There are also lots of durian varieties grown. When winter mins get below 10c some varieties drop leaves and don't appreciated it. Others seem unfazed when temps get down to 5c.
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Kuching pasar satok ( market) this morning
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN8Jgzm4/IMG-2647.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
5 smaller durian for 20’ringgit ($4.35)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7h1L4cZB/IMG-2650.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
$1 breakfast ($3 if you include the coconuts I drank )
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxDMDtQh/IMG-2651.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Looks pretty good, Benjamin.
Peter
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Can’t be too picky when the fruits are about $1 a piece.
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How’s the quality, and do they also have well known varieties or is it all kampung?
Peter
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I’m planning on going to SE Asia this coming year but it’s hard to decide on the time. I’d like to hit Borneo and somewhere else between the Philippines, and western Malaysia. The timing can be tricky and I am traveling for so far. It’s like at least 30 hours of travel time from San Jose, Costa Rica…
Peter
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I recorded 5021mm of rain in my yard this year bit too much for durian but they are ok. A guy I know in the daintree has recorded 6539mm for the year incredible.
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Bellenden Ker holds the Australian record for one month being 5387mm and for a single year 12,461mm,The town of Tully has recorded 7,925mm in a year. That being said over 5000mm in a year is crazy rainy.
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It’s interesting. We have recorded up to 5.5m in a couple of very rainy years but that was a long time ago and the trend is now much, much drier. Of the last 3 years 2 have been in the 2m range and this year, finishing today appears to be the driest yet. The dry trend is critically affecting the Panama Canal.
So if you research durian growing areas of Malaysia it seems that 2.5m of annual rain is typical.
We’ve had very good fruit production with the drier weather but it has been harder to plant. Just when it seems good for planting, we do, and then the rain stops and we’re having to water.
I think the farm does better with it drier but my nursery does better with more rain. We water every day in the nursery if it’s not raining but somehow it’s not the same.
Peter
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Peter we have had wet weather last few years I have recorded
2023 5021mm
2022 3552mm
2021 3120mm
We are probably due for a dry year. Like you say it’s been good for my young plants to grow except when we get too much in short periods. I lost several trees in recent flooding and earlier in the year we had 1225mm rain in February which caused some wet feet problems for a few trees and killed
My 6ft E4 abiu.
I have a few 3 year old seedling rambutan trees that flowered heavily one set no fruit probably male one is loaded with fruit very excited to try them and pretty happy to have fruit growing from seedling in 3 years.
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I have a few 3 year old seedling rambutan trees that flowered heavily one set no fruit probably male one is loaded with fruit very excited to try them and pretty happy to have fruit growing from seedling in 3 years.
Did you lose a lot of fruit in the cyclone? Two of our trees were loaded with fruit and I guess we lost at least half the crop. Interestingly, they have both flowered again and setting more fruit so not too bad.
Most of our durian are bouncing back quickly after the cyclone. I have gone through and pruned off dead lead leaves and branches as well as mulched heavily around quite a few trees. Pulled out one since it had several branches with no leaves and we have other durian to plant in it's place.
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hey nar my rambutan held up ok they are only relatively small compared to yours though so didn't cop the worst of the winds. Some of the big rambutan trees down the road that were loaded like yours lost i estimate 70-80% of the fruit that was mid sized.
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How’s the quality, and do they also have well known varieties or is it all kampung?
Peter
It was pretty good 7/10. One kampung I had gave me some numbing. mostly kampung but a vendor or 2 had some named varieties as well. I just went over for a couple days but am staying in Thailand for now. I much prefer the culture here, Malaysia is an interesting place
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(https://i.postimg.cc/k2ZZvdgk/IMG-2267.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k2ZZvdgk)
So this is a graph showing recorded rainfall in inches at a sight about 1km from my farm. What’s interesting to me is the trend to less rainfall. Actually I have records from before this person started and there were some years with more than the highest on this graph.
Interestingly the graph clearly shows the pattern of two dry seasons, roughly March and September, then the rainiest periods falling around July and December. It’s this pattern that makes two durian harvests in a year highly likely.
We also use the pattern to target the best planting periods.
But the pattern seems less reliable lately. Preliminarily I’d say that the biggest difference is that the rainy season is not as rainy while the dry is more or less the same.
Peter
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The double wet and dry season is an equatorial pattern and yes 2 crops a year are possible in that scenario. The seasonal pattern of rainfall volume is not consistent worldwide but a slight increase annually and changes in the timing and duration of dry season falls seems to be a trend.
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A lateral branch on my PK durian isn't looking too good. Been a month since the cyclone and it wouldn't surprise me if the branch was damaged. In addition, it's been very wet here recently with rain everyday. Any ideas on what caused this? The tree looks quite healthy otherwise. Also, is it worth pruning off the dead wood? Hesitant to prune with this wet weather but also don't want fungus growing on the dead branch. Finally, the top of the tree has flopped over. This occurred after very heavy rain last week. Since it's getting higher now, I can't stake it up. Should it sort itself out in time?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hjh1yhzf/PK-lateral.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Hjh1yhzf)
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I would prune off all dead wood.
What you can do to straighten the tip is to tie a straight stick into the tree, fastening at several points. It needn’t be in the ground as long as it is tied at at least two points where the trunk is straight. We do this frequently and consider that a straight stem allows for the easiest shaping.
Peter
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Sounds good. Thanks for the advice Peter. Still raining at now but will get a bit of a window tomorrow and early next week to try and fix these problems.
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A more positive post for a change from me. The photo below is a red prawn seedling. After the recent heavy rain, the top was flopping over. I have used a plastic stake fastened to trunk to straighten it up. Works well, thanks Peter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZCbq66yQ/red-prawn-seeding.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZCbq66yQ)
Also, here's another durian planted next to the red prawn seedling. No idea what it was but tasted quite different to typical durian so we planted it. I'd say it has generally grown a bit slower than most of my other seedlings. After cyclone Jasper though, I piled up small branches, wood chips and bigger chunks of wood and also chucked on some organic fertiliser. Seems to be really taking off now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bSjs7MrY/cream-cheese.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bSjs7MrY)
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Very nice, Nerd, the foliage looks really good.
What sort of organic fertilizer do you apply?
Peter
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They look really healthy mick we have a few days of sun for a change think they are gunna like that.
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Thanks guys. Yes, sure going to be hot over the next week :).
The fertiiser I have used is this one - https://tff.com.au/our-product-range/organic-life.
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Do you buy it locally Mick?
My sunan had its first flowers but none of them came to anything even though I hand pollinated - guess that’s not surprising for first flowers
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Yes, at the local Agricultural store. Good news about the flower, but shame about the lack of fruit set. I bought a sunan a couple of months ago which is growing well.
We had some strong winds where this morning. Offshore from here had gusts to around 60km/h. A few of my durians were getting bashed around a bit but I'm sure they'll be fine. My stakes have done a good job at keeping most of them upright.
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Thanks Mick
Funny how it varies - We only got a few gusts in Freshwater but 5 minute drive away in redlynch there are tree branches off everywhere. A friend with a large orchard up in redlynch reckons the damage from the catabaric(?spelling) winds coming off the interior from cyclones a long way south have more damage to her trees than actual cyclones over the last few decades
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Anybody has experience planting durians this size?? I wonder how thriving they will be with time given limited root system in a container? Will they be somewhat limited through entire life? Probably first year won't even grow at all, just try to adjust and establish itself?
(https://i.postimg.cc/xkVJ0JCM/1c251a3a-71b3-40ba-8210-7591020a6c9b.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkVJ0JCM)
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No experience planting trees anywhere near that size for me. They are huge :). What you say makes sense to me but I'd be interested if anyone has experience planting something like these.
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No experience planting trees anywhere near that size for me. They are huge :). What you say makes sense to me but I'd be interested if anyone has experience planting something like these.
Yes, just trying to figure out whether to go with this size, or much smaller but initial smaller tree would be healthier and more productive long term.
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Are those grafted or seedlings?
I think they are to be avoided but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t plant that😂.
Perhaps I would do a lot of foliage thinning and cut root tips to try and stimulate them. I’m thinking that those trees might have been in the ground, then dug out to sell??
Peter
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Are those grafted or seedlings?
I think they are to be avoided but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t plant that😂.
Perhaps I would do a lot of foliage thinning and cut root tips to try and stimulate them. I’m thinking that those trees might have been in the ground, then dug out to sell??
Peter
Thank you for the tips. I have no idea if they have been in the ground. Yes, trees are grafted. No other size available at the moment. I really want this variety, hence willing to take a risk. Picture send to me by reliable guy in a nursery business who has 2 hectares of just mamey to experiment on. I would trust him with everything else, just don't trust with durian roots :) Hence, the question.
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if they are grafted just buy one and do a ton of approach grafts off it. you would definately have to do a root prune. i dug up my durian that was significantly smaller and in a pot for three or so years and even after two years in the ground it was still root bound and i could just pull it out of the ground pretty much
This was after two years in the ground. We are not in the best climate for them so the root development won’t be the same as the idea environment but still not the best
(https://i.postimg.cc/vc2Cnmtz/IMG-1882.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vc2Cnmtz)
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Potted durians can be big enough to fruit in a container, have seen it and posted about it before. I bet those have stayed in the pots, thinking the trees would not survive being up-potted after being in the ground but can’t be sure. Those trees still look worth planting to me, should be fruiting soon if not already
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Most large trees that I have bought and planted was over taken in growth by direct seeded trees in 3 years.
I no longer buy anything that is over 1-2 years old unless it’s like the only way to get that species.
I’v seen a 2,3m durian seedling being planted. 2 years later it was almost dead with a new shoot comming from the hypercotle. Lots of money and energy wasted.
A direct seeded durian xan reach 2m in 1, 5 years from seed sown.
It’s a good idea though to buy a grafted plant or marcott and then approach graft on it until it dies.
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if they are grafted just buy one and do a ton of approach grafts off it. you would definately have to do a root prune. i dug up my durian that was significantly smaller and in a pot for three or so years and even after two years in the ground it was still root bound and i could just pull it out of the ground pretty much
This was after two years in the ground. We are not in the best climate for them so the root development won’t be the same as the idea environment but still not the best
(https://i.postimg.cc/vc2Cnmtz/IMG-1882.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vc2Cnmtz)
Wow that’s a sick root system.
I’v measured durian tap roots and on average after one year from seed sown they are over 40cm long.
So I’v manufactured special long pots for them.
The common 4,5L pots are only good for a few months.
Airpruning is a good, compromise but need air pruning pots or native plant tubes with the holding tray.
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What do you think about cutting the taproot? I think there is a case to be made that encouraging more lateral root development the tree can feed easier.
Peter
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I use deep pots and will cut the tap root where they hit the bottom of the pot. I've pulled a few durian out with root problems (bought, not grown myself). Planting durian with a curled up tap root is a bad idea I think. I wonder sometimes if people up pot durian which are root bound which masks the problem.