Author Topic: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids  (Read 5395 times)

Peep

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2023, 10:00:13 AM »
Are you able to maybe tell us something about the comparison in fruit quality, when compared to the Citrumelo parent? Or compared with other cold hardy hybrids? Do you prefer the Ichangstar, or do you have other hybrids (common hybrids or others that you made) that you still prefer?

kumin

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2023, 11:42:38 AM »
Excellent, Ilya clear difference in appearance, are you going to test for Zygotic embryony?

Ilya11

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2023, 12:16:59 PM »
It seems that they are probably more hardy than 5star that drops its leaves under strong winter winds with negative temperatures.
They ripen earlier than their citrumelo parent, more or less at the same time that C.ichangensis clones that I have, although they flower two weeks after 5star. That could be advantageous when sudden spring freeze is common.
They lack the internal oils and a hint of poncirus aftertaste that is perceptible in 5star .

Nature of bitter taste of 5star and these hybrids is probably different. The bitterness  of the ripe 5star juice when kept in the freezer overnight can be completely eliminated, while that of Ichangstars is still there. On the other hand, bitterness of 113270 is much less than that of grapefruit.
The perception of acidity of these Ichangstar is certainly less than in 5star juice that is sharply soar.

The disadvantage is the number and volume of seeds, although 123270 does have more juice than fully ripe 5star. Its size although variable,  is ~30% less than the size of 5star fruits.
5star has unique , original fragrance, while I do not feel any aroma in 123270 fruits.

They are acid citrus that could be used as hardy lemon substitute for juice, curd and other culinary preparations.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Ilya11

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2023, 12:18:22 PM »
Excellent, Ilya clear difference in appearance, are you going to test for Zygotic embryony?
Yes, I will for new hybrids, 123260 is zygotic.
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                       Ilya

kumin

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2023, 01:01:57 PM »
A high seed count zygotic parent may be desirable if it's eventual progeny have a lower count. Do you have any specific breeding partners in mind for further breeding projects?

Ilya11

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2023, 05:20:22 PM »
Up no now I have only one sweet hardy hybrid: 5starXKeraji and concentrate my efforts on its crosses.
It has high fertility,  partenocarpy and self-incompatibility. Seeds from cross-pollination are zygotic.
It is sub-acid even when green, but unfortunately fully ripens quite late, around Christmas time when usually we have quite frosty weather.
Also its fruits are rather small.
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                       Ilya

a_Vivaldi

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2023, 09:37:23 PM »
Was 5 star or Keraji the female parent for that cross?

Ilya11

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2023, 03:18:13 AM »
Was 5 star or Keraji the female parent for that cross?

5star
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Americ

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2023, 10:02:45 AM »
How does the cold hardiness of your selection 5starxkeraji compare to that of keraji?
What are your plans for increasing the size of the fruits?
Are there any siblings from the original cross that could be used as breeding partners?
5starXkeraji really fascinates me.

Ilya11

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2023, 12:26:05 PM »
Keraji is probably the hardiest sweet mandarin. It can be grown at my place without protection, but once in three years has some leaf/twig damage.

I have a few dozens of survivals from 5starXKeraji cross out of ~100 zygotic seedlings. They are in ground since 2012 and were never damaged
Only two fruited up to now. Staraji 55 is the best in quality, another one- Staraji07 has small  sour fruits that also mature late  in the season.


 
This spring I made some crosses of Staraji55 with Dunstan and Morton in hope to increase the fruit size  and with Mapo and XieShan to introduce earlier maturity.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 05:26:23 PM by Ilya11 »
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Americ

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2023, 04:11:47 PM »
Thanks for the reply.
I didn't know that only two had flowered at this point. That isn't many. That is quite a long juvenile period that they have.
Those sound like some good crosses that you made, thanks for sharing!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 12:20:33 PM by Americ »

Till

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2023, 03:43:49 AM »
"Up no now I have only one sweet hardy hybrid: 5starXKeraji and concentrate my efforts on its crosses.
It has high fertility,  partenocarpy and self-incompatibility. Seeds from cross-pollination are zygotic."

Thank you for the info! Up to now I thought it was polyembryonic and largely useless as a mother plant. My one has now fruits for the first year. They are still small and green. I pollinated with my best Poncirus ("Poncirus Till #1").


By the why, I have a nice well growing seedling of Dunstan x C. ichangensis. There is a weaker growing other one, also. Dunstan seems to be quite usefull as a mother plant, also. Changsha x Dunstan was also successfull. And Poncirus [mainly Nikita and similar clone of Karel] x Batumi resulted in a number of hybrids.

Ilya11

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2023, 12:41:12 PM »
My Dunstan (from Andy Voss seed) is probably  100 % nucellar ( seedlings look like identical).
Till, the first leaves on the stem of your F1 seedlings, are they arranged in alternate ( like those of poncirus)  or opposite way?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 12:52:08 PM by Ilya11 »
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                       Ilya

Till

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2023, 02:33:36 PM »
Ilya, they are alternately arranged like in Poncirus. But subsequent leaves show some differences to Poncirus. It is, however, a problem to recognize all hybrids after one year because leaves of pure Poncirus also show some variation. I am not sure yet what seedlings of Poncirus x Batumi Citrumelo are hybrids. I am only sure that some are hybrids. Some are also a bit more vigorious than the rest. I suppose that things will be clearer next year when hybrids will develop bigger leaves. Even Poncirus x Chandler has leaves at the moment not much bigger than Poncirus leaves.

My experience in general is that Poncirus hybrids have their first leaves - or better say "preleaves - in the fashion of pure Poncirus, i. e. alternately arranged. But often they are a bit bigger than in pure Poncirus. Sometimes seedlings have two pairs of paired leaves in alternate position to each other while Citrus has only one pair and Poncirus none at all.

To make it more puzzling: Seedlings of Limequat Tavares often have alternately arranged first leaves without any Poncirus influence. Not to speak of Australian varieties... I usually try to gather indications for hybrid origin: The form of the leaves, vigour, even leaf edge or squarrose leaf edge etc.

What regards my Dustan x C. ichangensis - hybrids, the matter was more easy. I had seedlings with trifoliate leaves like Dunstan and two seedlings with only some trifoliate leaves, very broad petioles and elongante leaves. One of them was two times more vigorious than the rest. My Dunstan is still small. I had only one fruit with few seeds. So a good percentage of hybrids these two seedlings.

The Changsha x Dunstan hybrids have Changsha as mother plant, so trifoliate leaves were a clear sign of hybrid nature.

Ilya11

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2023, 06:06:46 PM »
Thank you. What was a source of your Dunstan?
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                       Ilya

Till

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2023, 03:42:59 AM »
I have my Dunstan Citrumelo from Mikkel who has it from somebody who received it from the US. I have asked Mikkel who that exactly was.
Fruit taste of my Dunstan is quite good. No off-flavours but sticky substance in the fruit and sour. From the outside a typical citrumelo.

sc4001992

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2023, 05:21:58 AM »
Till,

This is not related to this post but I wanted to say that I have a large FD tree (old, 30yrs) and I never tasted the juice since the first time I tried the juice years ago and it was really bad, hard to drink any of it. But this year, a neighbor asked if he could have the juice from the FD fruits (100 fruits) for his mixed drink so I squeezed the fruits for my seeds and gave him his juice. I asked a person who was working on my kitchen remodel to try it and tell me if it is terrible or super sour. He said it was fine, he could eat the flesh or drink the juice like lemon or lime. I tried a few fruits, and he was right, it was not bad tasting. So my question is, why did my FD fruits taste better now than years ago?

I do have two types of FD on my tree, the original rootstock tree and the branches I grafted with the UCR/CCPP budwood:

VI-383   FLYING DRAGON TRIFOLIATE (CRC 3330A)
VI-397   HIRYU FLYING DRAGON TRIFOLIATE (CRC 3882)

Till

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2023, 07:36:03 AM »
You have become older and lost taste  :). I do not know, what makes the difference. It is also difficult for me to compare this year at my home with last year. This year was more wet and spring more cold. But is that the difference? I doubt it because my plant grow in a glasghouse where I can controll the climate more or less.
I still think that poncirus taste is basically determined by genetics. It seems, however, that taste is to some degree also determined by environmental factors. I also see that the nice smell of the fruits gets more intense when you store them for a while indoors in the warmth.
And then, as I use to say: You can make a pretty good lemonade from almost every Poncirus if you let the juice stand in an open glas for some hours. Perhaps overripe fruits are also much better than just ripe ones. Spekulative... We need tests.

poncirsguy

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2023, 07:38:17 AM »
I agree Your taste buds have died.

sc4001992

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2023, 09:31:54 AM »
Haha, yes I'm old now, but I don't think my taste buds are that bad or gone. I can still taste the difference between a cheap wine and a very good wine (my wife tells me) and I'm not a wine drinker.

Till, you may be correct about the ripeness of the fruits. All of my 100+ fruits were not picked off the tree, but instead I waited until they started to fall off the tree and then immediately collected them that day. I would check each day and pick up any fruit that fell off my tree so that may be the reason it did not have that strong nasty taste I did not like before.


bussone

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2023, 06:38:30 PM »
It’s not unusual for fruit to improve as a tree ages.

I have found they make a perfectly acceptable jelly. Basically tastes like lemon.

Till

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Re: First bloom of my citrumeloXichanagensis hybrids
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2023, 04:02:43 AM »
Ilya, Mikkel says that he has my Dunstan from a certain Gunnar via a German forum. According to our email correspondence from 2019/20 it is not the Dunstan Mikkel got from you.