Charichuela

[BENDERSGROVE]

I am in the process of purchasing 2-15 gal grafted Charichuella trees that are already fruiting,the trees themselves are NOT for sale, but seeds and budwood will be as soon as we close this deal. They will be sold on a first come basis,if anyone has any interest let me know and I will put you on the list,as I have been told,whether true or not I wont venture to say,but I was told these are the only ones in south fla that are known to exist other than a specimen at the fruit and spice park.

[murahilin]

Excalibur has a nice grafted one in a 7g that I gave them last year. I think Patrick may also have one. They aren't fruiting yet though.

It's pretty cool that you are getting two that are fruiting. How old are they? Grafted or seedling?

[BENDERSGROVE]

Excalibur has a nice grafted one in a 7g that I gave them last year. I think Patrick may also have one. They aren't fruiting yet though.

It's pretty cool that you are getting two that are fruiting. How old are they? Grafted or seedling?

Both are grafted,I am going to see them tomorrow,hopefully they are as described and will pick them up.

[cyclonenat]

I would be interested in some seeds

[davidgarcia899]

I would be interested in seeds as well

[BENDERSGROVE]

I will put whoever wants seeds as they post. Thank you.

[cbss_daviefl]

Seeds, thanks.

[davidgarcia899]

Just to be clear this is G. longifolia right?

[HMHausman]

What is the current botancal name for what you are calling Charichuela.  I first heard this Charicheula name at Bill Whitman's. He had fruit that he produced that was elongated to some degree and had very little flesh on large seeds.  He was identifying it as Rheedia Madruno.  That was what we were taught in Al Will's class. Now I know they have merged Rheedia with Garcinia it is perhaps being called Garcinia species, acuminata, or macrophylla.  In Puerto Rico, in chatting with Felipe Osborn, he afvises that the name of this and other now garcinias are dependent on which country they come from.  Not sure if I am quoting him correctly, but basically he said that in Bolivia, the name Achachairu prevades the descritpive vernacular, in Peru, the pervasive nomenclature is Charichuela and there was one other country.  I forget , maybe Brazil.  In anycase, in Puerto Rico we encountered trees loaded with fruits that looked similar to what I had tried at Bill Whitman's excpet they were large and round in shape.  They also seemed to be better in flavor and had a greater amount of edible flesh. You can see these in the baskets in the center of the picture.  They are labelled Madruno/ Garcinia accuminata:




I will be very interested to see what the fruits you obtain look and taste like.

Harry

[BENDERSGROVE]

I was told it is garcinia macrophylla

[BENDERSGROVE]

What is the current botancal name for what you are calling Charichuela.  I first heard this Charicheula name at Bill Whitman's. He had fruit that he produced that was elongated to some degree and had very little flesh on large seeds.  He was identifying it as Rheedia Madruno.  That was what we were taught in Al Will's class. Now I know they have merged Rheedia with Garcinia it is perhaps being called Garcinia species, acuminata, or macrophylla.  In Puerto Rico, in chatting with Felipe Osborn, he afvises that the name of this and other now garcinias are dependent on which country they come from.  Not sure if I am quoting him correctly, but basically he said that in Bolivia, the name Achachairu prevades the descritpive vernacular, in Peru, the pervasive nomenclature is Charichuela and there was one other country.  I forget , maybe Brazil.  In anycase, in Puerto Rico we encountered trees loaded with fruits that looked similar to what I had tried at Bill Whitman's excpet they were large and round in shape.  They also seemed to be better in flavor and had a greater amount of edible flesh. You can see these in the baskets in the center of the picture.  They are labelled Madruno/ Garcinia accuminata:




I will be very interested to see what the fruits you obtain look and taste like.

Harry

[davidgarcia899]

Well I'm still interested in getting some seeds if garcinia macrophylla.

[BENDERSGROVE]

Well I'm still interested in getting some seeds if garcinia macrophylla.

No problem, I will keep u posted

[fruitlovers]

What is the current botancal name for what you are calling Charichuela.  I first heard this Charicheula name at Bill Whitman's. He had fruit that he produced that was elongated to some degree and had very little flesh on large seeds.  He was identifying it as Rheedia Madruno.  That was what we were taught in Al Will's class. Now I know they have merged Rheedia with Garcinia it is perhaps being called Garcinia species, acuminata, or macrophylla. In Puerto Rico, in chatting with Felipe Osborn, he afvises that the name of this and other now garcinias are dependent on which country they come from.  Not sure if I am quoting him correctly, but basically he said that in Bolivia, the name Achachairu prevades the descritpive vernacular, in Peru, the pervasive nomenclature is Charichuela and there was one other country.  I forget , maybe Brazil.  In anycase, in Puerto Rico we encountered trees loaded with fruits that looked similar to what I had tried at Bill Whitman's excpet they were large and round in shape.  They also seemed to be better in flavor and had a greater amount of edible flesh. You can see these in the baskets in the center of the picture.  They are labelled Madruno/ Garcinia accuminata:




I will be very interested to see what the fruits you obtain look and taste like.

Harry

Harry, Rheedia madruno now becomes Garcinia madruno. I think what Felipe must have said is that all the Rheedia species in Bolivia are called by one name: achachairu, and all the Rheedias in Peru are called by one name: charichuela. So neither of these names really is a designation for just any one species. The photos in Whitman's book of the plant he calls charichuela show it to have a warty yellow skin similar to Rheedia or Garcinia madruno. But the shape is wrong as madruno is rounder, not elongated. Elongated fruit looks more like Rheedia or Garcinia acuminata. (You can see photos of both madruno and acuminata in Lorenzi's Brazilian Fruits book.)The author Hoyos in his book Frutales en Venezuela speaks specifically about the fruit at Whitman's house. He thought it was a variant of Rheedia madruno, possible since these fruits easily hybridize, and the Garcinia acuminata i have tasted were not so great. Whitman collected the fruit from a marketplace in Iquitos, Peru, so it was never really certain what he had, only that Peruvians called it charichuela. I have a tree that i started from seed from Whitman's plant. It's extremely slow growing, is about 7 feet tall, more than 12 years old, and has never flowered or fruited.

[fruitlovers]

Well I'm still interested in getting some seeds if garcinia macrophylla.

The plant originating from Whitman's yard was definitely not macrophylla. Fruits of macrophylla have similar elongated shape but have a smooth skin, not warty skin like Whitman's charichuela.

[HMHausman]

Thanks for the attempt at clarification, Oscar.  I am sure you have more accurately constructed what Felipe said.  I do seem to remember that he used the term Garcinia rather than Rheedia, however.  In anycase, who is the genius that merged Rheedia and Garcinia?  They seem to be very different.  Flowers are way different and they are New vs Old world as far as I know.  Is someone just messing with us?

Jarry

[BENDERSGROVE]

Thanks for the attempt at clarification, Oscar.  I am sure you have more accurately constructed what Felipe said.  I do seem to remember that he used the term Garcinia rather than Rheedia, however.  In anycase, who is the genius that merged Rheedia and Garcinia?  They seem to be very different.  Flowers are way different and they are New vs Old world as far as I know.  Is someone just messing with us?

Jarry

Harry,I just got homr with the trees,they are really nice,one has fruit,buds,and flowers,the other which is bigger looks like it will flower soon,I would really like you to look at them,I see that the fruit is bumpy,but they insist it's macrophyla., Oscar said that those should be smooth,either way I bought them and they were way too nice to pass up,I paid through the nose for them,but hey I think it was well worth it,they are absolutely grafted trees,I am home today and all day tomorrow,whenever it is convenient for u,give me a call.Thanks Mike

[fruitlovers]

Thanks for the attempt at clarification, Oscar.  I am sure you have more accurately constructed what Felipe said.  I do seem to remember that he used the term Garcinia rather than Rheedia, however.  In anycase, who is the genius that merged Rheedia and Garcinia?  They seem to be very different.  Flowers are way different and they are New vs Old world as far as I know.  Is someone just messing with us?

Jarry

Must be the same taxonomical genius that lumped all rollinia genus into annonas. Another big mistake as the flowers of rollinia are totally different than annonas.

[BENDERSGROVE]

Thanks for the attempt at clarification, Oscar.  I am sure you have more accurately constructed what Felipe said.  I do seem to remember that he used the term Garcinia rather than Rheedia, however.  In anycase, who is the genius that merged Rheedia and Garcinia?  They seem to be very different.  Flowers are way different and they are New vs Old world as far as I know.  Is someone just messing with us?

Jarry

Must be the same taxonomical genius that lumped all rollinia genus into annonas. Another big mistake as the flowers of rollinia are totally different than annonas.

All I know is that I am totally confused!!!!! Lol

[fruitlovers]

Thanks for the attempt at clarification, Oscar.  I am sure you have more accurately constructed what Felipe said.  I do seem to remember that he used the term Garcinia rather than Rheedia, however.  In anycase, who is the genius that merged Rheedia and Garcinia?  They seem to be very different.  Flowers are way different and they are New vs Old world as far as I know.  Is someone just messing with us?

Jarry

Must be the same taxonomical genius that lumped all rollinia genus into annonas. Another big mistake as the flowers of rollinia are totally different than annonas.

All I know is that I am totally confused!!!!! Lol

Hi Mike, join the club! The experts are also totally confused, especially with the garcinias. A big part of the problem is that a full taxonomical review (a monograph) of this genus has not been done since the late 1800;s, so the classifications are a bit outdated.

[BENDERSGROVE]

Thanks for the attempt at clarification, Oscar.  I am sure you have more accurately constructed what Felipe said.  I do seem to remember that he used the term Garcinia rather than Rheedia, however.  In anycase, who is the genius that merged Rheedia and Garcinia?  They seem to be very different.  Flowers are way different and they are New vs Old world as far as I know.  Is someone just messing with us?

Jarry

Must be the same taxonomical genius that lumped all rollinia genus into annonas. Another big mistake as the flowers of rollinia are totally different than annonas.

All I know is that I am totally confused!!!!! Lol

Hi Mike, join the club! The experts are also totally confused, especially with the garcinias. A big part of the problem is that a full taxonomical review (a monograph) of this genus has not been done since the late 1800;s, so the classifications are a bit outdated.

Well at the very least,I hope the fruit is good,cause I busted my backside today as well as emptying my wallet, why do I get the feeling I would have better odds in Vegas!! Hahaha, the trees are beautiful so really I think I did ok, the 15 gal pots were trashed so I moved them into 25 gal pots,that was a mission to do by yourself, when I finally got done, I thought I went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!! Man I need a day off!!! Lol

*** mod edit:  fixed your quote ***

[fruitlovers]

Mike you did good! The charichuela fruit, whatever the correct latin name is, is definitely a good fruit. Almost everyone that visited Whitman and tasted it raved about it. You're lucky to have found some fruiting trees, because like i said before, they are very slow to fruit.
PS weren't you supposed to have a day off yesterday? Give your back a rest,

[BENDERSGROVE]

Mike you did good! The charichuela fruit, whatever the correct latin name is, is definitely a good fruit. Almost everyone that visited Whitman and tasted it raved about it. You're lucky to have found some fruiting trees, because like i said before, they are very slow to fruit.
PS weren't you supposed to have a day off yesterday? Give your back a rest,

Actually I worked all day yesterday at my regular job,so I managed to get today and tomorrow off! I am a service manager at a Honda dealership,and in the car biz there are no holidays!!
I run my nursery on my days off to de-stress,never had a tree or a nursery customer scream at me!!!! Lol

[BENDERSGROVE]

I got to get a really good look at the tree that is presently fruiting,the fruit are all still rather small,except one which looks like it might be ready soon,I will wait for Harry to come by and see it,and determine if it is or will be ready anytime soon.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Thanks to Harry Hausman (and Mike)

I got to glimpse the tree and fruits in question at bender's grove.  I'm quite certain that it's Garcinia acuminata, same species as pictured in whitman's book as charichuela, and Lorenzi's book, Brazilian fruits, as G. acuminata. 

The trees which Mike at Benders has obtained are amazingly gorgeous, and truly inspiring to anyone who dreams of pushing the limits and fruiting this species outside of its preferred Zone...in a pot for me especially!! or a green house up in Canada or Colorado for some other members.

Have heard mixed reviews about this fruit, but generally the taste is amazing..but the seeds are large, and the sometimes scant amount delicious flesh is a tease to some who eat the fruit.  One thing I can say, I've heard on several occasions that this fruit appeals to those who aren't interested in sampling rare fruits, or adventurous eaters so to speak...so I'm sure this fruit is amongst some of the better garcinia fruits that we can grow easily here in FL and possibly in containers and/or controlled climates...well out side of its native range!

O BTW...supposed to be everbearing!!??  that furthers the chances of inducing this jewel to produce fruits in colder climates, with less of a window for fruit development (unlike troublesome species; ex. mamey sapote  good luck with fruit development outside of the tropics).

Put me down for some scions...I'd love to tinker around with my cambium slicer and figure out what this species is compatible with.  Also would be willing to pay about $8 to sample just one nice fruit!!! So Mike...if possible to purchase a fruit or two...let me know....we can discuss the details.

I hope my Identification is right...because it seems like G. acuminata is harder to obtain in FL ( or maybe USA in general...but I'm not sure why?).

Best of luck with your trees...I'm truly jealous of what a marvelous find those trees are...and wonder what grower would dare to sell those??? and what else may lurk in the shadows of some obscure FL growers collection........

[lkailburn]

Wow great description. I'd be interested in seed, or possibly even a whole fruit to taste if you'd ship :-)

-Luke

[BENDERSGROVE]

I will be happy to provide seeds,fruit,bud wood to all as they become available.i replanted these in 25 gal pots since the 15 gal pots they came in we're in rough shape,question I have is what is the cold tolerance for this so we can keep them protected indoors when necessary? Thanks mike P.S. the reason these were sold to me is, the owner of these is being forced to sell their home due to ever increasing out of control insurance premiums, people on fixed incomes here in Florida are being priced out of there homes, that is truly sad.

[ericalynne]

I have a charichuela tree grown from fruit from Bill Whitman's tree. It flowers profusely but has never set fruit. It is in a pot; must be 8 years old or so. Now that I am in zone 9b, it stays in the greenhouse, which is heated if the outside temp is forecast for less than mid-30s F. The first year I had it in the greenhouse I neglected to turn on the heater just one night when it was about 32F and the upper branches, closest to the top of the greenhouse got killed, but the rest of the tree was fine and it has recovered fully. So, yes it does need protection from near freezing temps.

Erica

[victory]

I would be very interested as well for seeds, fruit, or budwood! I purchased some plants from South Miami some years ago. I currently have 2 left. They were crushed when a large tree limb fell in a storm . I also have two achachairu, one of them a grafted variety. I don't know if they would work as well.

[Recher]

oscar--Must be the same taxonomical genius that lumped all rollinia genus into annonas. Another big mistake as the flowers of rollinia are totally different than Annonas.

These idiots have decided genetics is the end all and be all of taxonomy w/o taking into account morphology. The most egregious is lumping Planchonella into Pouteria. Example Planchonella australis seed looks nothing like a Pouteria seed and has much more affinity with a sapodilla seed.

They also lumped Michelia into magnolia in spite of the fact Magnolia flowers are terminal and Michelia lateral.

i doubt a single Rollina spp. could be hybridized with any Annona. I refuse to acccept these changes.

Visually with some exception one can tell a Garcinia from a Rheedia, but the I wouldn't recognize G. livingstonei as either

[Mike T]

Recher I think you will find native pouteria and planchonella deserve merging.Genera can have quite a bit of diversity even in seed shape or external flower parts.There is some reajustments and lumping to rectify excessive splitting in horticultural species when they were split on features that did not reflect genetic relatedness.Taxonomists are getting more sophisticated and going back to original definitions of species and genus to 'fix' things up.It is most inconvenient with fruiting plants when we are used to names and much of it seems counter intuitive.

[Recher]

Yes maybe NATIVE Pouteria should become Planchonella but no way native Planchonella should become Pouteria as is the case.

[fruitlovers]

oscar--Must be the same taxonomical genius that lumped all rollinia genus into annonas. Another big mistake as the flowers of rollinia are totally different than Annonas.

These idiots have decided genetics is the end all and be all of taxonomy w/o taking into account morphology. The most egregious is lumping Planchonella into Pouteria. Example Planchonella australis seed looks nothing like a Pouteria seed and has much more affinity with a sapodilla seed.

They also lumped Michelia into magnolia in spite of the fact Magnolia flowers are terminal and Michelia lateral.

i doubt a single Rollina spp. could be hybridized with any Annona. I refuse to acccept these changes.

Visually with some exception one can tell a Garcinia from a Rheedia, but the I wouldn't recognize G. livingstonei as either

Imbe (G. livingstoneii) flowers definitely look like garcinias. True the plant itself is bizarre looking. Nothing like any othe garcinia or rheedia.

[Recher]

  yea i was thinking leaf morphology...do you think you could correctly separate 87% of garcinia from rheedia by leaf / branch / tree morphology or am i kidding myself?