Sand into soil

[TheGivingTree]

Objective: turn sand into soil

So far I have chop and dropped native plant material and brought in many lbs of coffee grinds. I plan on bringing in dirt, mulch, manure and peat as well as making my own biochar and compost on site.

What's the most efficient way to go about doing this?
What cover crop should I plant now? Will it grow from bare sand? Can it be done without irrigation?

All feedback is appreciated.

[Mike T]

Turning sand into soil will be a long process. Mobile nutrients, liquid applications,water and smaller particles go through the profile too easily being lost to plants. I think the best first step is to build an A horizon full of humus. While bringing in topsoils would be great you will need a continual supply of mulch that breaks down and in high volume. It takes a lot of organic material to make a relatively thin layer of soil.

[Frog Valley Farm]

Living roots build soil.  Grass is the fastest known method to build soil.  Tall grass with cow crap is the best way on sand if you want soil stucture.

[achetadomestica]

I assume you are talking about the property in Montura? It will be a little harder for
you but should not be impossible. I know two people who talked to the tree trimmers
and one of them let the trucks park in an empty lot and the other guy didn't do anything.
Both ocassions once a year when these guys were in their area they would dump truck loads of
free mulch. It is very fresh but within a year it breaks down. You have to find the trucks when they're
in your area. If not these companies have to pay to dump the stuff. They love to have a spot to dump.
I have been planting trees at my house for 10 years, as you saw I have a circle of mulch around every
tree. I add a fresh ring 2-3 times a year and it disappears fast. Luckily I can drive and be back at my
house within an hour and have 7 free garbage cans of fresh mulch that the county drops off 3 times a week.
There is a place in Lee County about 1 1/2 hours away you can purchase a cubic yard of compost for around
12 dollars. It's heavy and you would need a good trailer but if you could several yards it would go a long way.
Not sure what you would have to pay to have a dump truck delivered but there is a place closer to you on this website.

 https://www.leegov.com/solidwaste/residential/compost

[johnb51]

Everything organic breaks down and enriches the soil.  I'm not sure how much effort it takes on our part.  It just seems to disappear on its own.  My sand in Deerfield didn't look like sand after a few years.

[Francis_Eric]

Good Advice

Florida is different then here , but I know cities advertise large mounds of mulch .
I haven't looked in years , maybe city data (online forum)  city web site .

Guy on here from Hawaii had a dump truck of Cucumbers dumped over stock
may not want rats, but sure there may be a place that has rotting food soil someplace if you know what I mean.

Well what I do mean is maybe you could get free bread I knew a guy that feed his worms that In new Orleans
but that may be more for a farm situation... --(edit) I mean worms for worm casting those types in a pit rotated

Florida is quite Different I contacted a pool patio company (by chance they drove up, and I was awake that day)
Whole dump truck of soil (but it's sandy there.)


I was thinking that what Frog Valley farms said He talked about the Grass
I know the Organic Homesteaders Gardening (OHG Defunct yahoo Group)
They used Molasses Builds up the soil microbs (animal feed) every fall I believe)

FroG Valley May know Epson salts with magnesium , and calcium) may be okay to add (or not ) it's cheap
acidifies the soil do not add to much at a time on plants.

[Francis_Eric]

There is a place in Lee County about 1 1/2 hours away you can purchase a cubic yard of compost for around
12 dollars. It's heavy and you would need a good trailer but if you could several yards it would go a long way.
Not sure what you would have to pay to have a dump truck delivered but there is a place closer to you on this website.

 https://www.leegov.com/solidwaste/residential/compost

Yeah better advice from you
thinking you said at first 2 hours away

Not sure about florida here you can get a Dump truck of black soil Broken down leaf mulch
 for $70 bucks or so or 85$ delievered , but it's not expensive at least here in the upper mid west.

(call a soil gravel company , in yellow pages but not just one some are a rip off look though yelp reviews too of the companies.)

[Fishinsteeg234]

I would suggest consulting with local tree trimming companies or the city to obtain large amounts of free mulch. Add 3-6 inches over the sandy soil and it will break down and hold moisture, creating an environment for good microbes. It may take a few years, but I think the other posters above are on the right track with good advice.

[Francis_Eric]

Yeah I like that rotting log thing the Germans do growing right inside it.
(what's it called PC search)

Hügelkultur (pronounced “hoogle-culture”) is German for “hill culture.” Hügelkultur entails growing crops on a raised, earthen mound that consists of a foundation of fresh or rotting logs and branches covered in layers of manure, compostable materials and soil. Planting potatoes in a hugel bed.

[pineislander]

Don't worry about peat, most of it is imported at high cost and for the price you can get other organic material that will do the same. One thing which will help a lot is to provide shade over the soil. The best shade is layered shade with different levels starting close to ground, medium level and high level. Doing that helps moderate temperature and can preserve & actually harvest moisture. Another benefit is that the sun itself retards decomposition it slowly burns/oxidizes organic matter. Like Frog Valley said, the roots from growing shade plants will go down and add organic matter down into the soil, not just on top, so the shade/cover plants do a second duty unseen below ground.


For a general rule, one foot of loose organic matter on top might end up making one inch of decomposed material after a couple of years.

For cover crops you could look into plants of early succession, legume pioneer plants many of which generally make their own nitrogen which is probably lacking. Crotalaria, pigeon peas and cowpeas you can buy seed for but will need some rain to get started.

Without some irrrigation you'll slow down a lot during the dry season. You might try to concentrate efforts on small areas first unless you have large resources of time, money, material or effort. You don't mention the scale of your project. Now that I look at Montura you are close to the black muck soil lands that might be a source for some very good topsoil which might be helpful.

[Francis_Eric]

Pretty Good ideals Pine man

A while back
Was is you that had that Chop drop Video (I don't watch many videos)
with the Pea , and Ice cream beam between each row  (for Nitrogen Fixers)
(if so Pretty impressive property)

[Mike T]

Grass is important if you are taking a succession approach. If it we me and funds were plentiful I would get soil delivered with a reasonable clay content (but not pan forming types), spread and then get truckloads of organic matter of all types especially council free mulch if it is available. Stables.chicken farms whatever should be pressed for support. It will break down faster than you think.

[pineislander]

Grass is important if you are taking a succession approach.

I can suggest using tall types of clump forming grasses if you intend to plant them. I had good success with lemongrass planted as borders on the sides of planting beds for chop/drop. If your property held water during our recent heavy rains mounds can be essential to avoid waterlogging fatal to some trees. It is also a way to concentrate your efforts at soil building, begin close to the most valuable trees. Here is a picture:



I recently have planted a special type of Red Napier grass for chop/drop. It is robust growing up to 6 feet tall very quickly. The type seems to be sterile unlike wild varieties which can become noxious. The benefit of clumping grasses is that they don't send out rhizomes underground to invade large areas. The Napier is a C4 type plant known for high enough biomass production it has been considered as an energy source feedstock. I can share cuttings.

[TheGivingTree]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

The project is 1.25 acres with the immediate work being done on roughly half of that. I have removed mostly saw palmettos and small pine trees so far, leaving larger oak and pines. Will be getting irrigation put in by early spring but want to get some roots in the ground.

Mike - I found the same guy selling the soil in lee cty on craigslist and plan on getting a couple truckloads but will have to pick it up, they wont deliver to montura. I have also looked up a few small companies for mulch but haven't called them yet, will begin doing so this week.

Pineislander - the property is roughly 40% shaded and the difference in the shaded soil is apparent. I was going to rake all the plant debris out into the unshaded area to break down and plant legumes in shaded areas where the soil holds the most moisture. I also set up a spot to burn the woody material and will begin that process this weekend.

Maybe I can transplant legumes and have them survive with minimal irrigation? If not, would a tall grass work better?

[Mike T]

There are a few hay grasses that you can keep chopping down that would work. Big tree legumes that you chop down would work but avoid weedy types like luecaena.

[TheGivingTree]

Grass is important if you are taking a succession approach.

I can suggest using tall types of clump forming grasses if you intend to plant them. I had good success with lemongrass planted as borders on the sides of planting beds for chop/drop. If your property held water during our recent heavy rains mounds can be essential to avoid waterlogging fatal to some trees. It is also a way to concentrate your efforts at soil building, begin close to the most valuable trees. Here is a picture:



I recently have planted a special type of Red Napier grass for chop/drop. It is robust growing up to 6 feet tall very quickly. The type seems to be sterile unlike wild varieties which can become noxious. The benefit of clumping grasses is that they don't send out rhizomes underground to invade large areas. The Napier is a C4 type plant known for high enough biomass production it has been considered as an energy source feedstock. I can share cuttings.

Looks great and thank you for the offer. I would appreciate the cuttings! I think I'll try a little of everything - grasses and legumes.

There are a few hay grasses that you can keep chopping down that would work. Big tree legumes that you chop down would work but avoid weedy types like luecaena.

I have a couple 1gal ice cream bean seedlings. How can they fit in here other than eventually providing shade?

[TheGivingTree]

Grass is important if you are taking a succession approach. If it we me and funds were plentiful I would get soil delivered with a reasonable clay content (but not pan forming types), spread and then get truckloads of organic matter of all types especially council free mulch if it is available. Stables.chicken farms whatever should be pressed for support. It will break down faster than you think.

Thanks. I'm planning on building a mobile chicken run for this reason. That won't be until early spring as well.

[achetadomestica]

there are some local trucking companies in or around LaBelle. You may check with them
and have them pick up a load at church street and deliver to montura. Church St is about 15-20
miles from Montura. It's really close I'll try to find a local number of a guy I used. I dont know
what Lee county charges for a dump truck load but the trucking shouldn't be too much
It shouldn't take 2-3 hours to pick up and deliver

[TheGivingTree]

there are some local trucking companies in or around LaBelle. You may check with them
and have them pick up a load at church street and deliver to montura. Church St is about 15-20
miles from Montura. It's really close I'll try to find a local number of a guy I used. I dont know
what Lee county charges for a dump truck load but the trucking shouldn't be too much
It shouldn't take 2-3 hours to pick up and deliver

That would be great, thanks.
I have a friend who may be able to get me a deal on some of the black gold pineislander referenced but it may cost a bit.

[bovine421]

A lot of good ideas here. How about this call the feed store or talk to Rancher about getting a round bale of moldy hay that they can't feed to the livestock. Roll it out till it in and get some organic matter going. Buy Millet some rye grass and clover seed.

[K-Rimes]

Thought not even close to the same size as you're working with, I've taken the exposed sand seabed I live on and turned it to loamy soil by chopping and dropping everything in sight and throwing it on the areas I'm working with - then adding literally a foot of mulch. The mulch is 100% gone after two years! The soil is nice and rich now and I'm certain I could grow anything in the areas I treated. Next spring I'll usually dump a pallet of chicken manure over these areas and work it in, then cover it again in a foot of mulch.

Sounds like you need dump trucks worth, and the other FL folks are helping. You are on the right track.

[Dirt Diva]

HI Giving Tree
I have a couple of suggestions also ...

1.  Mexican Sunflower Tithonia diversifolia
T. diversifolia can be used as a green fertilizer typically using the chop and drop method. It can also be used as chicken feed, fuelwood, soil erosion control, and building materials. For fertilization, it is used as a mulch which can be spread on top of the soil or buried beneath. Using the plant as a fertilizer has proven to increase crop yields. T. diversifolia has the ability to restore phosphorus in high amounts to the soil. As a fertilizer it contains 1.76% N, 0.82% P, and 3.92% K. All three properties are lower in cattle manure, and P is higher in poultry and swine manure.

Tithonia diversifolia is hardy to zone 9a   Full sun to part shade   Spacing: 2-3ft

I found This EBay listing. Jill repsonded to my inquiry immediately and I think it may be the best pricing for these chop and drop
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292952828870?ul_noapp=true

Also saw a great vid about the benefits from Pete K.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVSC5DBm17U&ab_channel=PeteKanarisGreenDreamsFL

2.  Comfrey also has great benefits, it mines the minerals from the subsoil and makes a great fertilizer.

3.  Get coffee grounds from Starbucks

4.  Grocery store and food distributors for their overripe fruits and veggies

5. This didn't work for me, but you might have better luck in your area.
https://getchipdrop.com/

6. I go through my neighborhood in the afternoons before trash pickup and get bagged leaves throughout the fall and winter and then compost in place. It took a couple of years, but I have black gold now for almost all my planting areas !!!

Good luck and Happy Gardening !!
P J, the Dirt Diva

[Mike T]

Isn' black gold Texas tea and a jackfruit. Solid suggestions there and you better pick your plants well after all this effort that will take place. Believe only a small proportion of what you read and only half of what you see. Always ask if the fruit is sour and what is the flesh yield when dealing with unknowns. You do need bulk input so work on that. Nutrients are secondary atm and many more mobile ones will leave the scene before before the soil develops. Just get humus, the A horizon and soil life going.

[Epicatt2]

In central and south Florida one Central American invader seen volunteering occasionally is Leadwood (Leucæna leucocephala), a tree whose leaves may be used as green manure.

Leadwood has several interestng properties, one being that the wood has a specific gravity that is greater than that of water so it sinks, hence the common name.  It also, when the wood is dried, may be used as firewood and it burns hot (good for cooking or heatiing) but leaves no ash!  Yet the live trees can also provide a decent firebreak.

The trees can be cut down each year and the fresh leaves turned under as a readily enriching green manure since they are high in nitrogen. (This is also true of comfrey, mentioned above in this thread.)  And the trees will grow back rapidly so that by the following year they will be ready to cut for manure again.

Leadwood's leaves can successfully be used as cattle forage, just as is done n Central America, but the amount fed to the cattle must be limited due to an alkaloid contained in them which, if consumed to excess, causes the cattle's hair to fall out resulting in sunburned backs.

It is odd to me that so few people have taken advantage of Leucæna leucocephala for its various useful porperties.  It apparently does self-sow here in Florida and seed can be collected from trees as they do have a distinct flowering season, producing large, distinctive heads of white flowers followed by the seed.

OK — HTH

Paul M.
==

[Mike T]

It is the only plant I identified to avoid in this thread. They are a serious pest with seeds viable in the soil for over 20 years. While the seeds are kinda edible for people they can only be used in small volumes for fodder and yes hair falls out. My neighbour has a 40 ft one that chucks seeds around everywhere. They just get called Lucaena here and it appears that they are also allelopathic so there are lots of reasons to avoid this species.