Green/hoop house questions if you would please

[ThangBom321]

Hello and happy holidays!

I'm in the research and planning stage of raising a large green/hoop house at my parents' house. They live in the outskirt of Houston where they homestead raising chicken, ducks, quails and plant a good assortment of veggies. My siblings and I regularly visit them on the weekends (almost every weekend). My parents are older (70) but still stay active and love to work in the garden. As the cold comes, my siblings and I have to carry a bunch of plants to group them together to cover them with tarps, plastic, ect. to protect them. I'm tired of doing this and my parents don't have much to do since they can't grow anything in this cold season. They would also like to try their hands at other plants that would regularly not survive in our zone. this whole project will be a DIY project so that I may save $$. I'm not cheap per say but saving $ is good. I don't mind spending $ if I think it's worth it. I'm setting my budget at $2500 for this whole project. Again, I plan to build and DIY everything that I can so save $. Luckily I consider myself very handy and have a good amount of handyman skills/tools.

The plan:
-20'w x 50'l x 12' peak hoophouse (I would like to have more of a strait side so There would be more usable vertigo space). I just have to figure out where to raise the GH on the 2 acres property
-hand cranked roll up sides and auto open vent at top of end walls
-water from well and rain gutters (gutters later on)
-a small door at each end to go in and out
-a second door at the end large enough to drive a 1500 series through in case we ever need to do something in the off season.
-till up the greenhouse grass/dirt to make it softer/add a few truckloads of topsoil to add nutrients and make it easier for roots to grow down.
-dig a small trench near the greenhouse to control water drainage away during rain storms.

I plan to reserve about 15' of the last portion of the hoophouse to plant some trees (mango, avocado, lychee, logan, pineapples, passion fruit, dragon fruit and whatever else I see interesting).

The questions:
-Once the greenhouse is up and growing veggies, how are you transporting dirt/mulch ect. into the greenhouse? Remember, my parent are old so I'm trying to have it so that they can do things on their own.
-Flooring? This is a complex question I think. I plan to have some kind of solid flooring in 1 transporting lane. I think I'll lay bricks of maybe pour some concrete. What I mean by the transport lane is I plan to have a designated lane that will run down the length of the GH for the above question. I'm thinking a sturdy and solid base for this one lane will make it easier for my parents to roll and cart things around. The real question if what so I use for flooring for other areas of the GH that is not growing something?
-Shade cloth? Where to buy? What type?
-Poly sheet? Where and what kind did you buy? (I was thinking 6mil GH poly but unsure)
-For you windy people, how deep did you dig and anchor your poles? I planned to cement every other post and erecting the hoops 3' apart instead of 4' just to add strength but IDK.
-Pest control? We occasionally see wile animals such as birds, rabbits, snakes, foxes, and occasionally an escaped farm animal (horse, donkey, cow). How are you keeping these animals out of the GH when you open the doors or skirts? What about bugs inside the GH such as grasshoppers and such? I was thinking maybe getting some guinea hens to live int he GH to eat bugs?


Thangbom

[ThangBom321]

Pictures are always good so here are some pics of the homestead to share.

[spaugh]

Thangbom, a couple things that you need to realize before starting. 

1.) Biggest issue is a single layer of poly will not keep out the cold of your HH.  You saw my HH thread and I can already tell you it gets as cold in there at night as it is outside.  You should design it with 2 layers of poly.  You can use hard plastic twin wall on the end walls for better insulation or design it with 2 layers of poly.  The main hoop part you can double layer and use an inflation fan.  Trust me on this part, if your goal is to keep the temps up at night you MUST do more than a single poly layer. 

2. ) Bigger is better, except that it will cost more to heat and cool it.  So keep that in mind.  I made mine pretty large and am now considering heating and there is not a good option.  At least no cheap options.  And doubling up the poly is a big change.  I should have done it to begin with.  Luckily here it never gets below the mid 30s so its ok without heat.  Having it sitting around 60 at night would be better but its not going to happen this year.

3.)  Budget, forget 2500$, for a hoop house that big done properly you better budget 2X that much. 

4.) Power, run electrical and a small sub panel to it for power.  240 volts 30 or 50 amps if possible.  You will want to be able to run lots of fans, heaters, coolers, lights etc.  More power is better, an extra conductor to get 240V gives you 2X the power with only 1 more wire.  If you have a panel close by, #10, 4 conductor wire will get you 30Amps.  Thats a good amount ofa power.

5.) Shade cloth, greenhouse mega store has it.  Can get custom sizes.  Use aluminet or white if you cant afford aluminet.  I spent a lot of time researching the shade and aluminet is the best.  I got half my hoop house covered now with it.  Run it on the outside to keep the heat out.

6.) Critters, I have lots of critters.  I keep the doors closed.  Otherwise you will have critters. 

Good luck, nice homestead you guys have.  If you want to ask me more questions I am happy to answer what I can.  I learned a lot on my project.  Could really make an amazing HH if I was doing it over again.

[ThangBom321]

Thanks, I'll have to look at your thread again. I really don't want to spend 5k. boo!!!! It really don't get too cold or freezing out here hence why I figured a single layer GH would work fine (with heat sink water barrels). I mean we only bag/tarp what we have now and they survive.

Keep it coming, the more brain food the better.

Thangbom

[spaugh]

You should price out the Poly and shade and a fan and motorized shutters from farmtek and greenhousemega store. 

For a HH that large you will need a really large fan and shutters to refresh the air.  And a lot of poly and shade.  That stuff is not cheap.  You will probably be into it for close to 2500 just for a fan, motorized shutter,  poly, shade, and electrical work.  That does not include all the hoops and framing.  It adds up fast trust me. 

Bigger is better though for sure.  I like your dimensions you have planned.  Thats a great size. 

Trust me on the double poly.  You will kick yourself for not doing it the 1st time.  Much easier to do it to start with.

[Mugenia]

I used to be in the agribusiness. If you can find a big local farm supplier and distributor, buy your materials from them. It is a lot cheaper than Farmtek and other online suppliers. Before we sold our farm and moved to West, we hoarded and brought with us a ton of  materials used for building greenhouses, etc.

Pulleys, motors, industrial space heater, thermostats, drop curtains, fans, misting nozzles, etc.

Try Georgia Poultry - Nacogdoches, TX. Georgia Poultry - Pittsburg, TX. Just say you're a farmer and open a farm plan and shop.

[nattyfroootz]

You should price out the Poly and shade and a fan and motorized shutters from farmtek and greenhousemega store. 

For a HH that large you will need a really large fan and shutters to refresh the air.  And a lot of poly and shade.  That stuff is not cheap.  You will probably be into it for close to 2500 just for a fan, motorized shutter,  poly, shade, and electrical work.  That does not include all the hoops and framing.  It adds up fast trust me. 

Bigger is better though for sure.  I like your dimensions you have planned.  Thats a great size. 

Trust me on the double poly.  You will kick yourself for not doing it the 1st time.  Much easier to do it to start with.

I just wrapped up my greenhouse and was noticing how my night temps are remaining only a degree or two higher than outside temperatures.  I guess my original intention was to keep frost from my sensitive plants and seedlings, so I'll achieve that. But after putting in so much work on this totally rad greenhouse, I do wish I had gone double layer and given myself that awesome buffer.

[Kevin Jones]

Take a look at some of the different Walipini designs available.
Somewhat labor intensive... but can be very economical.
I know I have more time than money... you may have different resources.
The earthen walls provide great insulation and the glazing for the top can be done cheaply.
If I had the room I would do it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walipini
https://www.treehugger.com/green-architecture/build-underground-greenhouse-garden-year-round.html

Kevin

[ThangBom321]

I have question on poly covering size.

According to the DIY hoop bender for a 20'W hoop tunnel, you need three 10.5' sections of top rail.  I'm not sure how much of the swagged end slips over the non-swagged so I'm just going to count it as the whole length put end to end just for a safety bumper. This measures out to be roughly 31.5' of pipe bent, and connected to make the hoop. Now If I leave about 1' above ground in the ground post, I will have about 33.5' of hoop to cover. How wide do I order my poly? I will need a little extra on either ends so I can secure it to a roll up pipe for ventilation.

According to this chart from Bootstrap Farmers website, I need a 42' wide poly covering. Why the excess if I the hoop is only 33.5' in hoop length?



How deep are your group post? I have clay ground and plan to concrete every other post at the bottom with a bolt and nut put at the bottom so the concrete can really set and grab hold of the post.

Thanks
Thangbom

[spaugh]

Hi Thangbom, for your 20ft hoop bender, 3 pieces of pipe will be about 30' 6".  And the radius of the hoop and the height of your tunnel would be about 10'. 

If you are still wanting to make it 12 feet tall, you will need taller anchor posts or you could use 3 and a half top rails and make the hoops 35' instead of 30'.  Then bend them so there is 2.5' of straight on each end. 

Whatever you decide, you should give yourself at minimum 1ft extra of poly to work with on all 4 sides.  You may want to build your hoops and get them in the ground then order the poly once you know exactly how much to order.  You will have plenty of time to work on poly rails and end walls while they ship you the poly.  This is a time consuming project.

For the anchors, I made my anchors 18" (1.5 ft) long and got my holes dug and concreted with at least a foot of concrete on every 1-5/8" anchor post.  My ground is full of granite where I put the hoop house and I had to jackhammer it out to concrete it.  If your soil is easily diggable, you will want to go much deeper than I did.  You will need 2ft in the earth if its soft clay and no rocks.  You will have to decide.  If the ground is soft and your location is easily accesible, rent a auger to dig deep holes easily.  It will be worth the rental cost.  If you dont concrete each post will you still dig a hole or will you hammer those ones in?  If already digging, just use concrete on them. 

You can make concrete cheap if you can get to a material supply yard that sells recycled concrete.  Its crushed up concrete and sells for 20$ a ton here.  I use that and mix it 5 parts recycle concrete to 1 part portland cement.  Its 4 or 5 times cheaper than buying bags of concrete at the store.  Get 100lbs sacks of portland cement at home depot for every 500lbs of recycle concrete.

And to save time and cost, just smoosh the bottom of the anchor post or bend them to keep them in place instead of screws. 

[Mark in Texas]

Thanks, I'll have to look at your thread again. I really don't want to spend 5k. boo!!!! It really don't get too cold or freezing out here hence why I figured a single layer GH would work fine (with heat sink water barrels). I mean we only bag/tarp what we have now and they survive.

Keep it coming, the more brain food the better.

Thangbom

I'm on my 3rd greenhouse and am here to tell ya that Spaugh is spot on.  There will be issues you never dreamed of.   Visit as many greenhouse owners as you can, and if you can't do it right, don't have the bucks, then don't do this.  You'll end up heartbroken & wanting to give up from frustration.

Twinwall and double poly will decrease LT by at least 30% but is also necessary in those rare times when we get Arctic fronts like come this Sunday.  If you're gonna do tropical fruit then you will need to provide for the easy ingress and egress of pollinators.  I use large vents to allow them to come and go.

Regarding winter temps we're going down into the teens come Sunday night and won't be above freezing for days.  Houston is not far behind.  I'm off topping up my propane tank, collecting firewood and then dripping pipes later.

Good luck!

[ThangBom321]

Awesome brain food. I think that is a good idea on bending the frames then measure the hoops to see what I need to order. I already have a 5'' post auger and tractor w/3pt. I can borrow my neighbor's boom thing that the auger attaches to. I also have an electric cement/concrete mixer so I'm just moving it from hole to hole with drop the concrete in. I'll take a look at recycled stuff. That's a good idea. 10' peak hoop house is pretty much perfect. I want it anywhere from 10' to 11' peak. There will be less chances of wind damage while allow me some room to grow taller plants. I'll have to top them yearly but that's okay. As for 2ply inflated, I'm not sure on what to do. I know for a fact that it's better but it also cost a good deal more. I'm trying to keep things simple as possible in case something does go wrong, my parents can maybe take care of it themselves before I have the time to come fix it. As for heating, I think burning free lumber would do a good job. I can get tons and tons of lumber for free off Craigslist. Maybe a simple wood burner or steel drum or 2 with water heat sinks close will do nicely. We just got to make sure that the fire don't go out of hand and melt the plastic.


Thangbom

[spaugh]

Thangbom, check out "rocket mass heaters".  Thats what I want to put in mine for heat.  Its a bit of learning to make one but they are very cool.  The fire burns super hot to the point there is no ash or smoke.  Only CO2 and water come out.  An exhaust line is buried and coved with rocks or bricks (mass) and heated through the day and then released at night.  Youtube has videos. 

There is some permaculture farm place in Missouri that has some video on greenhouse application and video on youtube.  And they have a website with photos. 

A wood stove will work also but you have to route the exhause upwards and out which makes the roof or end wall design more difficult.

I will try and dig up a rocket mass heater video for you.  You may like it enough to try one somewhere else on your homestead also.